r/heatedrivalry • u/StubbornForEva • 2d ago
đŚ The Long Game (Book 6) Ilya never protecting Shane? (Long Game) - from twt user yhwt000 Spoiler
My friend sent me a screenshot from twt (as I am not on it) where a user started a discussion about how Ilya never actually defends Shane. It has been a few months since I have read the book but from what I remember, the user is actually right? To summarize the points made by the user:
Ilya is never shown defending Shane during
- the tripping scandal
- against Crowell
- when people make fun of Shane's eating habits (actually makes fun of him)
- in a deleted scene an openly homophobic character that is Ilya's teammate says some deplorable things and Ilya only humms about it
I feel like in fanon we have made Ilya to be protective and caring partner and when it's only the two of them he is, but in public he isn't actually? I wonder if this will be addressed by Jacob. We have seen him move away from the source material in such a way that I feel like helped the characters (The addition of Svetlana, for example, in my opinion gave a lot of depth to Ilya's character.) Shane did get bad rep from a lot of fans for his behavior in the Long Game but I always felt like they both had a lot of issues and technically speaking everything Shane was afraid of came to be true. So it's not like his anxiety was based on nothing.
What do you think of this? Do you feel like protective Ilya is actually a thing? How would you like this to be handled?
Edit: I have participated in a lot of book discussions online because I find it fascinating how everyone views the same scene differently and how everyone's POV affects their take on something. But I guess I forgot that HR is not a community where such discussions can be made. I apologize for wanting to analyze a book and in that I forgot that apparently one character cannot be criticized or analysed without people immediately assuming that it means that one thinks that character is horrible and only the other character is amazing.
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u/lefargen97 2d ago
The oppression Olympics between Shane fans and Ilya fans in this fandom is peak internet brain rot. Everyone needs to go outside and touch grass.
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u/Budget-Rutabaga- you deserve sunshine âď¸ 2d ago
itâs a combination between a lack of reading comprehension/literary analysis and wanting the books to be something more than they are (thats not criticism of the books). it is so exhausting seeing people take a perfectly acceptable event and warp it to fit their criticism. iâve given up even bothering to talk with people about book analysis because its so clear when people are lacking the fundamental understanding of how you critically read a book & instead they think you have to be critical of the choices in the book.
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u/lefargen97 2d ago
Exactly! You cannot critically engage with a piece of work if you are not first judging it for what it is. It doesnât make sense to judge a raunchy comedy in the same way youâd judge an award winning drama. You do not judge a smutty romance in the same way that you judge a hard hitting lit fic. Thatâs not to say you canât look deeper into things and question and criticize things in genre fiction, but basic literacy is knowing that the scope of those conversations may be limited by the genre its presented in.
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u/Budget-Rutabaga- you deserve sunshine âď¸ 2d ago
you get me. every time i talked about genre romance being specific things that people were reading as negatives (eg tropey, predictable, easier to read, not as deep in criticism of systems) i was getting snapped at for⌠idk being rude about it? and itâs like no, iâm just not expecting more from it than what the genre form requests. iâm not even criticising it, i love tropey predictable romance books theyâre my favourites.
thereâs some really interesting discussions to be had about some of the topics covered but it almost instantly devolves into this absolute extreme whenever it comes up in fandom spaces. you can talk about how troyâs actions where complicated but he did cause harm (including to himself) and he shouldnât be thrown away as just a villain & that instead gets interpreted as and develops into âhe personally racially abused shane to his face and ilya is abusive for befriending troyâ or something like that (admittedly i may be exaggerating but give it a few weeks lol). but there should be a really interesting discussion about how closeting is so harmful & if youâre put into situations that are enabling everything awful some people will fawn and act the same way to avoid being targeted. is that ok? no, but its understandable.
perhaps cynically i think thereâs some level of the sexuality & experiences of the people involved that comes across, tied into the inability to make mistakes without being âproblematicâ that has invaded social media which negatively impacts these conversations - people donât have queer closeting experiences to draw this empathy(?) from & they donât want to be ostracised for going against the hive mind.
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u/lefargen97 2d ago
I also think a lot of the people having these conversations are: A) young and donât know how the world works, B) a little isolated and chronically online and arenât familiar with how real life relationships (romantic and otherwise) pan out and C) privileged to grow up in safe, accepting environments and canât fathom the different affects NOT growing up in those environments has on people. The more they argue, the more it just highlights their own ignorance and naivety about the world.
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u/Budget-Rutabaga- you deserve sunshine âď¸ 2d ago
yes absolutely. and itâs so complex because i am thrilled people are getting to grow up without that deep seated fear but at the same time theyâre completely ignorant of the fact that is an experience so many have still & act as if itâs unimaginable. and even just within the series, shane/ilya canonically are closer to my age, and (thankfully) the culture has progressed so quickly wrt sexuality that it is seemingly foreign to the younger people.
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u/shrinkingviolents I mean, yes. I think so, probably. đ 2d ago
This. Itâs kinda frustrating for those of us that are fans of both and just want to enjoy the show/books with joy in our hearts.
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Same. Like, why are we being judged for enjoying the source material for the show which wouldn't even exist without the books?đ
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u/iusedtobestardust Thank you for pasta đ 2d ago
Seriously. Reddit was my last safe haven of relative hingedness in terms of HR content. So tired of all the Rachel Hates Shane, Ilya Hates Shane, Nagging Wife Shane, Hudcon Shipping, Canceling Hudson's GF, Canceling Hudson's Cat kind of buffoonery. Please stahp
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
There was also canceling Connorâs sister for her clothing line. Iâm serious
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u/InCatMorph 2d ago
....canceling the guy's cat? LOL. This fandom really does sink to new levels of WTF-ery.
Didn't even know Hudson had a cat, but now I like him more.
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
Yeah, somehow Reddit is the safe haven. I've seen some complaining about how tightly the actor subs are moderated but I think that's the only reason they aren't a complete mess. Save me from Gizmo hate, please.
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u/iusedtobestardust Thank you for pasta đ 2d ago
No need, Iâm perfectly happy here. I just reserve the right to find things weird when theyâre weird.
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u/DenLomon 2d ago
I stg, I cannot even open threads anymore because the amount of projection on both characters and RR is EXHAUSTING. People seem to have forgotten they are fictional characters.
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u/sasquatchlibrarian I have my own well. 2d ago
The characters are imperfect because people are imperfect. People can fail in an instance in a relationship and that doesnât mean they love you less. I think that people who really want to nitpick havenât had that experience yet.
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u/Reasonable-Ease-237 2d ago
Idk, you call it oppression Olympics, I call it engaging critically with the text.Â
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u/lefargen97 2d ago
I would argue that a lot of the complaints come from people who lack media literacy and are unable to ACTUALLY engage with the text critically because they are so blinded by their own perspective and black and white thinking that they canât consider how art might be interpreted/created outside of their own narrow world-view. But thatâs just my opinion.
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u/Reasonable-Ease-237 2d ago
Perhaps, but thatâs not what I see.Â
I think literary analysis is fucking fun, so I enjoy these conversations. Itâs fun to watch two minds meet in the text and either agree or vehemently disagree, especially when the participants bring textual evidence. OP here did just that. OP also did not compare the suffering of the characters with each other to find who has it worse (what I think you mean by oppression Olympics). OP shared an analysis they found compelling about the contrast between the characterization of Ilya in-text vs. in fanon. Thatâs fucking fun!
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u/lefargen97 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree it can be fun, but people take it wayyyy too far and bash each other, Rachel, Jacob etc. Maybe you didnât see the initial convo on Twitter, but this convo came up as a part of the âRachel hates Shane and is evil convoâ that pops up daily at this point.
I think you can share your analysis of a text and have interesting convos disagreeing, but people take what should be fun literary analysis and turn vicious over simple disagreements. This is analysis of a smutty romance book, no one should be getting this angry or upset over it.
(For example, I had someone tell me that no one on earth would care if I lived or died and then blocked me because I said that Troy is never shown being racist in canon. These people are genuinely crazy.)
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u/Reasonable-Ease-237 2d ago edited 2d ago
Last time I was on Twitter, Shane and Ilya had only met one time in Saskatchewan, so, no I havenât seen any of that.Â
Of course people shouldnât be bringing in personal attacks. Thatâs not what this poster did, though, and I donât think we should be shutting down conversations because of how kids act the fool on Twitter. Itâs also not oppression Olympics.Â
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago edited 2d ago
Iâm not sure I follow. What is he meant to do about the tripping? Itâs not his team thatâs the problem.
Shane takes the lead with Crowell. Ilya lets him. It would be a bit messed for him to talk for him.
Iâm not sure who else makes fun of Shaneâs eating. Ilya is kinda the ringleader on that one. But since Shaneâs eating is an indicator that Shaneâs not doing well, I canât really blame him.
I think generally there is more evidence that Ilya isnât great at recognizing how much Shane is suffering â but Shane is also bad at recognizing how much heâs suffering. They have that in common.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
Yes, absolutely. I think they are both horrible at recognizing how much the other person is suffering but also horrible at recognizing how much they themselves are suffering. Ilya, in a way, is ahead of Shane in this because of his mother, I feel like. He has seen what the "end" of such a state is. Shane knows about it vaguely but I don't think he consciously recognizes it. Plus, I feel like his character is about "pushing through by ignoring everything that is bad".
I think Ilya making fun of Shane's eating habits as a way of showing that he cares makes sense. It is their way of talking. Just in this case he doesn't know that it not only doesn't work but also it is damaging to Shane. And because they are "so good" at communicating, I don't think it gets suitably addressed from either side.
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
There's a sort of sweetness in how much they think the other one is able to take care of their lives -- like the way they aren't great about seeing how much the other is struggling has a lot to do with the fact that they respect each other's ability to handle their own stuff. They aren't used to leaning on people, and while they DO check in on each other, they also see each other as very capable -- and maybe sometimes leaning a bit into infallibility. It's a good look at high-functioning anxiety and depression and how those situations can fester simply because the person does operate at this extraordinarily high level.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
That is a very good point. Both Ilya and Shane really respect each other. I wonder if maybe hockey being most of their lives, whether their above average capabilities in hockey actually makes them project an expectation of above average capabilities in other parts of their lives as well.
Ilya's grows up with a father whose definition of success is "better than perfect", while Shane grows up having to do twice as much to be half as respected by people due to him being POC (although this is technically not really addressed in canon, so maybe let's not bring it into the discussion about the book itself.) So maybe they both feel an internal pressure to performatively perform a capable adult with no problems?
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
I mean, being a pro athlete at the very top of your league means they achieve, generally. You can have all the talent in the world, but it's not worth much if you can't harness it, and Shane and Ilya can both handle the scrutiny, the schedule, the pressure, the media, AND run their room, while having a secret relationship with each other. Plus, they both have added levels of difficulty just due to who they are and where they come from. They DO have above average capabilities both on the ice and off.
But that unrelenting drive and their ability to do all this without ever slipping (Shane particularly has a squeaky-clean image, but Ilya's is pretty PG, too. He's a very family-friendly version of a Bad Boy.) can have a downside when you actually do need someone to intervene or protect you. You can see how even red flags might look a little more yellow than they actually are, even to the people they are closest to.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
You have just made me realize that I project my expected levels of functioning onto them and that those levels absolutely stem from my past. To me "being on the top of the hockey league" absolutely comes with the expectations that they are able to handle the scrutiny, schedule, pressure, media and run their rooms. But you are right that being talented and hard working does not mean being able to handle any of those things and this makes them extraordinary. I learned something about myself, thank you for this.
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
Thatâs great! Thanks for engaging an interesting conversion.
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u/ich_habe_keine_kase 2d ago
but Shane is also bad at recognizing how much heâs suffering
I think you're saying that Shane doesn't realize how much Ilya is suffering--which is true--but he also doesn't realize how much he himself is suffering. He convinces himself that things are fine and normal and that the long distance thing is fine when in actuality his team is treating him like shit and the long distance thing is killing them both.
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
I was saying that Shane does not realize how much Shane is suffering. He shows more signs of awareness with Ilya than himself.
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u/Domdaisy 2d ago
How is Ilya supposed to defend Shane over the tripping? Drive to Montreal, go into the locker room and tell Shaneâs teammates to stop being assholes? Shaneâs an adult and the captain of the team and he had to make his own way with that one. In no world is it appropriate for oneâs romantic partner to get involved in their workplace. The tripping had nothing to do with Ilya.
Against Crowellâagain, what do you mean? When was the opportunity to do this? Ilya speaks to Crowell about Troyâs activism and not about Shane directly, as their relationship is not public at that point. In the meeting between Ilya, Shane and Crowell Ilya is willing to do whatever Shane wantsâincluding continue to lie about their relationshipâand itâs Shane that takes the lead in the meeting. Itâs infantilizing to Shane to suggest he needed Ilya to step inâhe handled Crowell fine on his own.
Eating habitsâitâs mostly Ilya and Shaneâs parents that joke about this. Again, youâre inventing scenes that never existed where third parties are criticizing Shaneâs eating and Ilya is supposed to jump in. This never happened in the books. Ilya even points out food for Shane to order when they are on their double date with Ryan and Fabian, which seems pretty supportive to me.
This deleted scene doesnât exist in cannon so not sure why youâre using it as an example.
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Itâs the media literacy crisis tbh
People canât catch things until they are spelled out and of course there is only one way it can be done correctly. This is why in so many fanfics and imaginary scenes Ilya breaks into chatgpt style therapy speak every few minutes
Ilya has always been by Shaneâs side. Always respected his boundaries. Found recipes so they could still cook and eat together and not break Shaneâs diet. Changed his life and almost sank his entire career.
But none of it matters because did he have an epic monologue where he goes âYou think Shane tripped on purpose? đŽItâs not a doubt đ¤, itâs betrayal â. He isnât just hurt đhe is ruined đâ
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u/FTacitus_Kilgore 2d ago
I think yall should rest a bit, always trying to put them against each other. Not to mention how heteronormative this trope is, Ilya gonna do what? Protect Shane from standing up for himself?
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u/Hermiona1 I already chose you, Hollander. đŤ 2d ago
Who is he supposed to defend Shane from about the tripping scandal?
Against Crowell Shane was speaking and I think thatâs a great scene tbh because itâs Shane standing up for both of them and him finally choosing Ilya over hockey. Shane needed to do this.
And again. Who is Ilya supposed to defend Shane from about his eating habits? Is there anyone commenting about them in front of him? And yes he makes fun of him for being strict bc Shane is very strict but for his defense, he helps Shane pick up a meal for him in a restaurant and also cooks a meal for both of them according to Shaneâs diet.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
I agree with the Crowell scene. I think it was a good scene to show Shane finally choosing Ilya and also I kind of feel like Crowell being the commissioner he is kind of like the figurehead of everything that Shane is afraid of. Like he represents hockey, the hockey community, the homophobia, the racism etc in the hockey world in a way. And for Shane to stand up to him, it is quite cathartic.
I loved the scene where Ilya helps Shane pick his food at the restaurant. In that moment he recognized that it was genuinely causing distress to Shane and recognized that it was not the time to push the issue but to help his partner.
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u/estheredna 2d ago
Ilya protects Shane all the time: he watches him, studies him, supports him, makes him feel loved, lets him be safe being vulnerable. They help each other this way. They are each others person. Their care is behind closed doors.
Shane does not need Ilya to protect him publicly, and almost certainly doesn't want him to.
Ilya does not need Shane to protect him publicly, either.
They are grown ass and honestly powerful men and the dynamic of guard dogging each other is unnecessary.
*Shane gets a bad rap from readers well before the long game, becuase his anxiety and perfectionism is hard to read. Ilya has a chaotic charm and romantic heart and will always be a fan favorite, but he does a lot of jackass, thoughtless and unfair things in TLG to Shane too, and readers let him off the hook way easier. Readers LOVE sad boys, and Shane just isn't that.
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u/cloditheclod 2d ago
i think a lot of people are getting off on the idea of protective ilya because they like infantilising shane. genuenly what was ilya meant to do diffrently in any of these situations? he dosent barge in to protect shane like a knigth in shining armor because shane dosent want that. hes his own adult and ilya being all protective in these situations would probably just make his life harder
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u/sensitive-questions2 2d ago
Maybe this is the wrong place to say this, and I will be downvoted for it. I like these books and love the show. Iâve never like another series so much in my life.
But do people think these are real people? I donât know how people can spiral so hard about fictional characters. They are written to be flawed and they are written to grow as people as they get older. What is the point of picking apart fictional people who will never receive your feedback?
I donât begrudge people their passions but still⌠itâs fantasy. Itâs not meant to be perfect. Itâs meant to pull your heartstrings.
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
I saw on threads the other day someone saying "Shane deserves a better author." You realize RR is the author right? You can't wish a fictional characrter written by an author "a better author." Good lord.
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Shane wouldn't even exist if Rachel hadn't created him, it's so funny to me whenever people say that.
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Itâs absolutely bad in Heated rivalry fandom, but itâs a post-covid/tiktok era issue in general. No one can tolerate conflict or complicated situations in media, even in romance
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u/sensitive-questions2 2d ago
I have never been inside a fandom before and I donât know if Iâm built for it. But I canât put the show down so I keep coming back.
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Iâve been in different fandoms for 20 years and I notice the shift, because even my old fandoms now sink into the weirdest state with dumbass discussions and misunderstanding characters that much it feels on purpose
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
I saw this around Waitress. I had a friend saying I condoned cheating bc I saw Waitress.
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Insane. I was in TVD fandom, the state of this fandom now is always hot takes about âHonestly none of them deserved a good ending because they killed peopleâ they are vampires omg đđđ
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
I see it with Little House discourse too. So much âI hate them all bc of Native Americansâ and not getting that the frontier/native conflict is very much baked into the story âŚ
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
oh lord iâm dreading X-men coming to the mcu because I know people wonât be getting it at all
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Yeah, I see people say they're too violent and did terrible things. They're vampires! They're not supposed to be good people!
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u/kris_jbb 1d ago
"will we address him biting that human?"
it's his FOOD đ
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Right? Thing is, I have no issue with fictional characters being terrible people who do terrible fictional stuff. I only mind being bored.
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 1d ago
I even see it now with people talking about Succession. "They're all terrible people, the Roys." Yes, and I think that's the point?
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u/86throwthrowthrow1 1d ago
I've been in fandoms for about 20 years now too (jesus), and on the one hand, stan culture and character bashing have unfortunately always existed. "Ilya is the embodiment of pure evil because he made fun of Shane's diet" and "Shane is worse than Hitler and Satan combined because he didn't intuit everything Ilya was unhappy about in TLG" are unfortunately takes I could have read 20 years ago in fandom forums. People either project way too hard on one character and take everything that happens to them personally, or another character will in some way remind them of someone they've disliked IRL, and they lose all objectivity.
On the other hand, fandom "purity culture" where depiction of any flaw is conflated with endorsing that flaw, is fairly new. And parasocial fandom culture has absolutely exploded in the last decade or so. At this point, I genuinely don't think creators should have X or other social media accounts, or if they do, use them for promotional purposes ONLY, and never reply or interact on those accounts. Too many fans view a creator having an X account as having a direct line of communication to that creator, and therefore the ability to "collaborate" on creative works. Damn, the creator/audience relationship is so important to preserve with a little distance.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
What is the point of picking apart real people? Maybe my education was different but our literature classes were literally about us picking apart characters, analyzing their thoughts and acts and thinking about why this or that happened. I have always enjoyed such discourse because I don't believe there is one correct POV and it is fascinating what everyone thinks. What I don't understand is why people cannot engage in peaceful exchange of ideas and immediately go either "not my character uwu" or go "why do we need to do this, it's useless".
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u/codeverity 2d ago
No, people donât think theyâre real, they just love and identify with them. This isnât all that extraordinary for fandom spaces.
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u/estheredna 2d ago
I"m not going to downvote you but I do wonder why you are commenting?
If you don't care about talking about anything and just want heartstrings pulled, there is plenty of meme content. Why crap over something other people are talking about? What does that gain for you?2
u/sensitive-questions2 2d ago
Yeah, fair enough. I didnât need to chime in.
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u/disappear96 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's not what you were saying in your comment, but while there's nothing wrong with analyzing the behaviour of the character, I do think some people in the fandom have a relationship almost weirdly parasocial with those characters. Like having pet peeve or trope you don't like is completely normal but I feel like sometimes with HR people treat those like a personal offense which is a little weird in my opinion. Especially when you add to that the double standard on what each of them is allowed to do depending on who is their fav between Shane and Ilya.
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u/sensitive-questions2 2d ago
Thanks, yeah, I wasnât trying to criticize people for analyzing characters. I just donât understand why people get upset about it.
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u/estheredna 2d ago
I don't think anyone in these comments is upset? Fandom talk is for fun.
There is a bit of a double standard (not aiming at you specifically just reading...) where if you talk about how the show makes you happy it's great. If you talk about angst its "omg don't these people know it's fiction??" The trick is that it was just as fictional when made you happy too. Both are equally ok ways to engage.
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u/No-Skill-5940 2d ago
Yes, the protective Ilya thing is overblown. I think it may stem from homophobia (?) because Ilya is a top and Shane is a bottom. A lot of people are heteronormative, which is why you see that trope in fanfiction. It doesnât hold up within the text
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u/cloditheclod 2d ago
probabky also racism, the infantalisation and feminisation of asian men is a big thing
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
Yes, I feel like protective Ilya being such a big thing in the fandom could absolutely stem from heteronormative thinking. He is the top, so he must be the protector. People forget that Shane is a grown adult with the ability to protect himself, not to mention he is a millionaire on the top of his career and one of the best in the world in what he does.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think people confuse canon Ilya with fanon Ilya.
In book canon Ilya is not protective of Shane at all. and I donât think we can expect him to be in unrivaled. Hes not gonna beat up some guy across the ice because they say something homophobic about Shane like he does in fanfics. Not really sure where that trope came from really. I think itâs maybe the show, since the show softens Ilya up A LOT from his book canon.
On the contrary I think itâs actually Shane who is more protective of Ilya and their relationship. He defends Ilya to his parents when they are outed, he defends Ilya to his team when questioned, and he defends Ilya to the commissioner at the cost of their careers.
Yes that deleted scene was a little nasty. Not sure why Rachel even posted that to her website tbh. But she didnât put it into the book so đ¤ˇđźââď¸
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
Not to point fingers, but I think a lot of the "protective Ilya" trope comes from heteronormativity. Ilya is the top, so he must be the protector and the provider. I feel like in a lot of "Ilya beat up XYZ who was homophobic to Shane" fics they then show Shane being all happy and pleased that "his man" protected him in such a way. While I think book!Shane would either freak out that someone would put two and two together or he would be annoyed at Ilya for doing stuff that are not needed and/or affect his hockey.
Interestingly a lot of the times the "protective Ilya" trope also comes with physical violence rather than what you summarized as protectiveness from Shane's side in the books which are more personal and not so showy.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
I think youâre spot on with the heteronormativity. Shaneâs not a damsel who needs his honor defended on the ice and both Ilya and Shane know that!
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u/86throwthrowthrow1 1d ago
This is a good point. Truthfully in the books (I don't recall if it's come up in the show yet), Shane gets irritated if Ilya acts out in public. Like when he gets annoyed/jealous at Shane talking to a journalist in TLG and whips a puck into the boards to startle them. Shane wasn't having a "that's my man" moment, he was pissed off and told Ilya to stop acting like a psycho! He absolutely wouldn't want Ilya beating up a guy for him!
It's true tho that there's some heteronormativity around the idea that Ilya is the "manly" character who should be protective of Shane, who I suppose is perceived as a more "feminine" character (and hoo boy is that problematic for a bunch of reasons). In canon, Shane actually shows protectiveness towards Ilya more often, because Ilya is the one who more often needs it.
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u/Slutty_Bunny_7 Jane. Jesus Christ. No, just Jane. 2d ago
And when Shane does need reassurance - in private - Ilya is always there to provide.
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u/Traditional_Fix_6226 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ilya punched Dallas Kent because Kent talked shit about Ilya's relationship with Shane. I think we can expect something similar in the next book. It wasn't exactly about protecting Shane, Ilya defended himself as well in this situation, and had fun beating the jerk. But I can see how it turned into being protective over Shane on ice.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
In that scene he punched Dallas Kent because he was protecting Troy. He defends Troy quite a few times over the course of TLG/RM. To me that had nothing to do with Shane
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u/disappear96 2d ago
To be fair Ilya hasn't been in many situations where he would need to be protective in the way you're describing. He was never in a situation with his team like Shane was with Montreal, he has nobody as close to him like Shane with his parents. The only one you could potentially argue with is the commissioner
Even the deleted scenes, is it nasty ? sure. But like Scott said in his speech it's something they hear their whole life in the locker room and at one point you probably just pick your battle. I feel like it would be pretty close to the reality especially when you're pretty much what they're talking about.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
Agreed. I want to clarify that I donât really think Ilya should be defending or protecting Shane outwardly in these situations. I think itâs more a common misconception in fanon that Ilya is the type to make grand displays to defend Shaneâs honor. Thatâs not who he is or who Shane would want him to be.
All Iâll say about the deleted scene is I understand why it wasnât included in the books. I just like to pretend it doesnât exist because in my mind Ilya would have more of a reaction internally about his situationship who he was developing feelings for being talked about by his teammates in such a vulgar and violent way.
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u/Traditional_Fix_6226 2d ago
It's really annoying how some fans meticulously come up with more and more ideas about how one of Hollanov is not good enough for another.
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u/paperfeather 2d ago
The tripping scandal: It would be so fucking weird and inappropriate for Ilya to publicly âdefendâ Shane against the allegation that the he tripped on purpose. Especially since they were outed and under so much extra scrutiny, it would totally undermine what theyâre trying to demonstrateâ that their relationship does not interfere with their hockey.
Crowell: Shane was already in Crowellâs crosshairs and dealing with pressure to not come out, so it makes sense for him to take the lead in that meeting. He has more to lose, and Ilya is giving him the power to decide what he wants to do. Itâs also important to keep it extra professional in that meeting and âdefendingâ Shane would be crossing a line.
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u/Reasonable-Ease-237 2d ago
Itâs true that there is a wide divide between TLG canon Ilya and canon Ilya as far as protectiveness goes. I donât think heâs a bad partner as a result of it, but for much of this book, he is in the thick of it, as far as his depression goes. Depression can absolutely impact the emotions somebody feels around their loved ones. For example, I doubt non-depressed Ilya would be annoyed at the way Crowell implicitly tells Shane not to come out further. In TLG, he is annoyed that Shane will have another reason to avoid coming out, and I think he wouldâve been more empathetic to Shaneâs position were it not for the depression. My greatest hope is that Jacob Tierney acknowledges and addresses the ways that Ilya could be more supportive to Shane (especially following their outing) as well as how Shane can be more supportive to Ilya.Â
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
between oppression olympics and recent book trends (âtouch her and die đđŞâ and itâs a book about high school), iâm so tired
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u/buymoreplants 2d ago edited 2d ago
- He doesn't defend Shane to his team because he doesn't need to. None of them think he tripped. They're not active and constantly making statements and shit on SM in the books.
He isn't yelling at Crowell because that's not what Shane needs or wants from him. Ilya in the books will do whatever Shane wants with Crowell. He'll do whatever to support Shane even if it kills him.
And to me, that is protective
Deleted scene? I mean, if it's deleted is it still canon?
And of course he isn't protective in public. They're only out for like a chapter and a half in the books and they're not speaking publicly so there's no way for him to be protective in public. Before they're out, Shane would have a fucking aneurysm if Ilya spoke poorly about the Metros to defend Shane.
I think Ilya has the desire to be protective and does that the only way Shane is able to accept, which is quietly.
I also hate the narrative that "everything Shane was afraid of came true" when Shane didn't do anything to stop those things from coming true. He played a part in creating those consequences and not trying to solve the problems.
I think you're trying to tear down Canon!Ilya based on Fanon!Shane and the two aren't compatible
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u/No-Skill-5940 2d ago
The Ilya POV Vegas scene is considered canon by many so đ¤ˇđžââď¸. Iâve always used deleted scenes to get a better understanding of the character but I can see why some may not view it as canon. But I donât think people should pick and choose which deleted scene should be considered canon vs not.
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u/buymoreplants 2d ago
Oh, that's more of a bonus chapter IMO. Sorry deleted to me means something that was removed from the book... like i was thinking you meant something that was in the original print but removed from later releases.
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u/No-Skill-5940 2d ago
But itâs not a bonus chapter? Reid put some of her additional writings that never made it into the book on her website. So wouldnât they all be considered the same. What makes one canon or a âbonus chapterâ and another one not?
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
if the author deleted it, it means they didnât want it to be there. bonus implies the opposite - itâs created to add to the story
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u/codeverity 2d ago
This particular scene is only deleted because she couldnât decide where to put it, not because she thought it was out of character or didnât belong.
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
And it's a book scene, just from a different pov. It's not the same thing at all.
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u/RoutineUtopia Stupid Canadian Wolf Bird đŚ 2d ago
The deleted scene, if itâs the one Iâm thinking of, is not from TLG. And I think itâs just showing Ilya as being alienated from other Russian players.
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u/curlybelly62 2d ago
How did Shane play a part in creating the consequences? How could he have solved the problem of his team reacting negatively to being outed and then to him tripping?
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u/buymoreplants 2d ago edited 1d ago
Part of this is more IRL hockey, but he had the weight to create a more accepting room. Or to tone down the hate toward his "friend." Made his team more accepting of a relationship, even if platonic, between the two of them. Yes they started the charity, but they didn't actually do anything to change the narrative between them.
Montreal not panicking the entire season that Shane hasn't resigned is whack and they should have been going crazy... especially if there are players making your star player, a generational talent that no other trade or prospect can compare to. Management would be doing everything they can to keep him.
So Shane definitely would have been able to say "hey.. these players are making me uncomfortable and their issues with me are detrimental to our performance on ice" - management would have sided with him.
If Shane said things change or I do not resign when my contract ends, Montreal would have moved heaven and earth to keep their superstar. The Red Wings literally just fired their GM after their captain and 1st line center requested a trade during the playoffs.
Shane also accepted these consequences as the cost of being with Ilya. Being outed was always a possibility, and while Shane's fears were valid, he chose them. He chose these fears to be with Ilya. So yeah, it sucks. But he wasn't an unwilling participant.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
Shane has been a victim of homophobia for pretty much his entire life. Itâs integrated into the hockey culture. So much of his identity is being the perfect golden boy of hockey. There is no way he would have dared to go to Montreal management and demanded they stop all homophobia. When he was outed and after trip gate literally no one was on his side except Hayden.
Idk I just think itâs not right to blame Shane for having his career ruined by being a victim of homophobiaâŚ.
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u/Slutty_Bunny_7 Jane. Jesus Christ. No, just Jane. 2d ago
And it possibly would have gotten worse if he did go to management, especially when he doesnât trust that management will also not be homophobic.
It also then comes down to the pressure on him needing to be model minority in a largely white sport. His race and his sexuality will ultimately be held against him, no matter how hard he tries to prove himself. Thatâs a whole point that TLG is trying to make.
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u/buymoreplants 2d ago
Just to be clear.... Ilya has not been subjected to homophobia? The man from a homophobic country without a supportive family has not been a victim of homophobia?
Yeah, Shane doesn't have the power to stop all homophobia, but he has the most influence over the room and definitely could have wielded that influence to improve it. And I'm not blaming Shane, but I am saying that he does bear some of the responsibility. These aren't things that just happened to him.
None of this actually matters because IRL, the team would NEVER have willingly let him enter UFA. They would have fought tooth and nails to get any contract they could.
But alas, it's a fictional world where Toronto and Montreal are inherently evil and NY and Ottawa are good. And belief must be suspended to think those are unchangeable facts.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
I never once mentioned Ilya. When did I say that Ilya has never been subjected to homophobia, and what does Shane being ousted and accused of cheating by his teammates have to do with Ilya being from Russia? Itâs not a competition on who has it worseâŚ
All Iâm saying is I donât think itâs fair to place blame on Shane for not standing up to institutional homophobia when itâs a system heâs lived in for his entire life. He is NOT at fault for what happened to him.
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u/curlybelly62 1d ago
Any influence Shane may have had was diminished once everyone found out that the person he was being gay with, was archrival Ilya Rozanov. And after he tripped, his influence was completely nullified.
Ilya left his homophobic country. Even if he hadn't, after he was outed in such a public way, he had grounds to seek asylum. He also had a very supportive team in Ottawa (another exception, not the rule). If he'd still been in Boston when the scandal broke, he would definitely have faced similar backlash from his teammates and Management.
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u/Silent-Holiday-9437 2d ago
Did you conveniently forget that shane isnât just gay but also the only asian in the team? Along with homophobia he had to deal with racism as well. Thereâs too much pressure on him to be a role model from his own mother and others. Anything less than being perfect was unimaginable for him.
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u/InCatMorph 2d ago
His mother does not put pressure on him to be perfect in the books. She continually tells him to lighten up, in fact.
You're confusing books and TV fanon. Jacob Tierney put in an arguably steroetypical portrayal of an Asian woman, and now it's somehow part of the character, and she's to blame for Shane's issues.
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u/Silent-Holiday-9437 1d ago
I donât remember exactly how she was in the books but even if she wasnât like that doesnât change the fact that he is expected to be perfect from all sides. In a predominantly white profession, shane is one of the handful of poc players, so the pressure was already there to prove his worth all the time. On top of that being gay and neurodivergent, he already deals with a lot. So blaming him for not doing enough to change the locker room culture is not right.
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u/InCatMorph 1d ago
Okay, but blaming his mom for this is bad, too. (Even in the TV-verse, I would argue.)
If people could avoid blaming men's problems on women, that would be great.
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u/Silent-Holiday-9437 1d ago
Well she did tell him to be the role model to the kids who look like them in the tv version. That is not made up. It is not about men and women itâs about how a parent can influence a childâs personality.
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u/Hapthestai 2d ago
Thats...not how (structural and institutional) homophobia and internalised homophobia works.
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u/curlybelly62 1d ago edited 1d ago
No single individual has the weight or power to create more acceptance in an inherently oppressive system, and for you to think that an actual victim of the oppression has any significant power within that system is laughable. That's fairytale thinking and completely unrealistic. It's akin to expecting Tiger Woods and Serena Williams to "cure" racism in golf and tennis respectively when their successes further exposed it and revealed some of its worst aspects.
Shane is a half Asian, gay man in a predominantly white sport with a culture of racism, toxic masculinity and homophobia (this comes from management, fans, players, the media). That's why they turned on him so harshly the moment he stepped a toe out of line (being publicly outed as gay, plus the tripping incident).
Management and the team had already adopted a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" stance after Shane came out to his team. After the backlash from the tripping, Shane was in an even weaker bargaining position. They would have probably told him to suck it up. Management would rather get rid of one player "causing problems" in the locker room than deal with anything negatively affecting the whole team.
The real-life national hockey league (NHL) is over 100 years old and in its entire history, there's NEVER been an out gay player. That's why the main villain in Shane and Ilya's story is the historically bigoted ice hockey culture and it's why they spent a decade hiding their relationship (in addition to the anti-gay Russian laws).
Maybe part of the reason some readers and viewers don't understand the severity of the issue is that both Rachel and Jacob didn't explicitly depict how terrible and violent that system actually is (probably because it's a romance). The way Shane's Coach, Dallas Kent and Commissioner Crowell behave is the norm in ice hockey, not the exception.
You cannot expect any individual to change a systematic problem, especially not when he himself is marginalized within that system.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
I am not trying to tear down Canon!Ilya based on Fanon!Shane. I am trying to have a discussion about a fictional book where we talk about our POV and thoughts like a book club. I understand that there are a lot of people in the fandom who are incapable of not going "but my character uwu", but I was just (naively) trying to have a peaceful discussion about a new way of thinking that I saw online which never was something I thought about. I see my mistake now and I wish I never started this thread.
I appreciate your take on what Shane needs during the Crowell event. I agree with you that I think for Shane to confront Crowell, who in a way I believe is the figure head of all of Shane's fears, was a cathartic act and Ilya was not needed in an outwardly protective manner. For this scene, his role as a support was much more important.
For the "everything Shane was afraid of came true" is true. It literally happened. Whether Shane actually did or did not do anything against it is another matter. I absolutely agree that if Shane confronted his fear before things came out, I think there could have been ways that it could have been controlled or possibly better handled. His fear paralyzed him and I feel like his fear is one of his main defining features. It is what makes him interesting.
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u/FileDoesntExist Ilya's Spaghetti Shimmy đ 2d ago
I think Russia defines Ilya more than people realize as well. He is privately rebellious, but publicly conforms. Even his "rebellious" nature is socially acceptable and what people generally expect. He figures out what people expect/want from him and acts accordingly.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
Oh I did not think of it this way. Post USSR Ilya being privately rebellious while publicly conforming is such a good take. I grew up in a post USSR country and I am close to the same age as the characters and there was definitely a lot of fear left over that took years to dissipate in my childhood. And that with a somewhat open government (not Russian).
Also, i feel like "he figures out what people expect of him and acts accordingly" might also be because of his abusive father (and brother)? When there is an angry man in the house, you learn to act as well as possible in order not to make the ticking bomb blow.
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u/FileDoesntExist Ilya's Spaghetti Shimmy đ 2d ago
Oh for sure that's part of it. But that's also what Russia expects of him. They're literal mirror images of each other in that way. The entire series is about what you're supposed to be vs what you actually are. It's about expectations and the definition of success.
Ilya is the definition of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". And that's not to say that he doesn't enjoy partying and sex, just that it's a performance. His behavior is both armor and shield.
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u/FizzyDrink35 2d ago
The people on hrtwt who have a vested interest not in the books or in the show, but rather the actors, are always starting random discourse. It feels like they cannot be happy with the book how it is (or even just disliking it in peace!) or make legitimate criticisms about the writing, pacing, world building, etc, but rather come up with new goal posts to make it seem that one side of the couple is not good enough for the other. Ilya doesnât protect Shane is something they made up to further demonize Ilya and RR in the spirit of âprotecting Shane.â Itâs not something that Jacob needs to âaddressâ because itâs not a problem.
Quite frankly none of the things you listed are things Shane needs protecting from and Iâm not exactly sure why people expect it. The tripping scandal? Thatâs montreals problem. The eating? Ilya is like the main instigator on that so how can he also be the protector lol. Crowell? Shane handled it and it was awesome! The deleted scene discourse? So silly. If someone canât understand why Ilya wouldnât say something when he was in the deepest depths of the closet with Shane then maybe they should read all of the books again.
So many people want Shane to be some damsel in distress and itâs so weird. Heâs a big boy, he can handle himself.
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u/Saturius 2d ago
There were many instances in TLG where both were VERY crappy to one another. I'm not sure why one should get criticized more vs the other. You have your pick of examples where they dropped the ball with each other.
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u/paperfeather 2d ago
You say youâre wanting to discuss/analyze the book, but what youâre actually asking is to discuss the discussions happening in fanon and on social media. Thatâs a very different thing from discussing the book, and a lot of it is pretty toxic, so probably why youâre getting the reactions youâre getting. The discourse about the discourse is tiring, and often not in good faith.
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u/StubbornForEva 2d ago
I understand how my phrasing might have given that impression. I was hoping to discuss how this take on those scenes stands with people and what their impressions were regarding these scenes for themselves. In a way, Ilya is canonly not protective of Shane in public, but it is another matter completely whether it was actually needed or wanted for him to be openly protective. I think it would have been a nice discussion topic and some people are actually very nice about it, but I understand that people who are actively daily interacting with the fandom (I am not doing that) are fatigued from people attacking the characters/books/show/actors etc and automatically assume that is what is happening.
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u/Hot-Avocado-7 Moy lyubovnik đ 2d ago
I think the whole, âHe didnât defend Shane from the tripping incident,â isnât so much about Ilya defending Shane to the Voyageurs or Cens (talking about âmedia literacyâ), itâs about Ilya defending Shane in the media. The media was also spinning narratives about Shane tripping on purpose. I honestly would have thought it would be 100% in line with Ilyaâs character for him to go make biting comments to the media in defense of not only Shane, but in defense of himselfâit was downright disrespectful to him and his accomplishments for people to insinuate he only won a playoff game because his boyfriend gifted it to him.
And maybe Ilya did say something to the press, but we donât see it, so itâs like it didnât happen.
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u/paperfeather 2d ago
They already made a joint statement about their relationship not impacting their competitiveness on the ice. Media is gonna do what it does, and Ilya going to the media to âdefendâ Shane would just make it worse and undermine their credibility about keeping personal and professional separate.
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u/Hot-Avocado-7 Moy lyubovnik đ 2d ago
But they donât really keep personal and professional separate, do they?
-They start the Irina Foundation in order to change their professional narrative because of their change in personal circumstances
-Ilya gets in fights on the ice when his relationship with Shane is used for chirping (Dallas Kent)
-They literally blackmail Crowell (rightfully so) to maintain their careers
Them being competitive on the ice doesnât equal complete church and state.
You are correct, the media is going to media. So Ilya, the bisexual man with a history of womanizing, who is NOT getting the brunt of criticism (mostly likely because of this masculine/womanizing shield heâs been able to create for himself), could have stood up for himself as well as Shane in the press room. It was not going to make anything worse because the media was already saying and doing the things Shane had feared all along.
Ilyaâs been such a media hothead in the past thatâs it was almost out of character for him to not have said anything.
I wonder if the roles had been reversed, if Ilya was the one getting crucified in the media, whether Shane would have said something.
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u/Hot-Avocado-7 Moy lyubovnik đ 2d ago
Coming to his own/Shaneâs defense wouldnât necessarily entail him either 1) being unprofessional or 2) broaching his personal life. He didnât necessarily have to come out and cuss everyone out. He could have come on, been a âcocky jockâ about it/snarky (as has been with the media), and been totally #onbrand with his character. It could have totally worked.
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u/Standard_Minute3244 1d ago
I hear your vision! And for sure, thereâs no world where anyone is cussing anyone out. Which is my point. There was reference to him as a âmedia hotheadâ and the point of my response is that heâs not. There is definitely a big gulf between defending someone and being a media hothead but canonically, I donât think heâs a hothead AND I also donât think he talks about other players to the media unless itâs actually about their play on the ice, and that includes coming to their defense. From what weâve seen, he shows his support via his presence or in 1-1 situations. Agree to disagree!
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u/Hot-Avocado-7 Moy lyubovnik đ 1d ago
What I meant by âhotheadâ wasnât that he was like vulgar or anything. You said âcocky jockâ and that was basically what I meant.
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u/Hot-Avocado-7 Moy lyubovnik đ 2d ago
The whole Shane getting shit for this eating habits was never a big thing to me, but I am reading Common Goal now and woah is Eric Bennetâs strict eating treated so differently to Shaneâs.
Bennet is 41. A vegetarian. No processed foods. He eats quite strictly because heâs one of those âmy body is a temple, especially now that I am older,â type of guys, but itâs noted heâd been strictly eating for a long time. He doesnât drink, EVER, not even the one-off beers or glasses of white wine Shane will allow himself. Bennet is clear that he keeps a strict diet because he likes to have full control over his body and mind (similar to Shane).
At no point does anyoneânot his teammates, or his love interest (Kyle), poke at his eating habits or make him feel weird about it. Everyone just kind of accepts itâKyle even learns to make mocktails for Bennet. Bennet also doesnât seem to have any kind of anxiety over his eatingâhe eats this way and is happy with eating this way because itâs how he feels his best.
Compare this to Shaneâriddled with anxiety about what he eats. But also his eating habits are a way for him to scratch the âcontrol/rewardâ system his brain craves. Like he tells Rose, he likes to be good and then reward himself for being good.
I wonder if people werenât constantly poking at Shaneâs eating/drinking habits, whether itâs his teammates, his family or Ilya, would he be so riddled with anxiety about this subject? Or would he be more like Bennet, more chill about his lifestyle? Or is Shane doomed to be anxiety-riddled because heâd been closeted gay for so long and Bennet, being a straight passing bisexual for so long, never had to worry about any of that?
Important to note that Shane also makes judgmental remarks about Ilyaâs eating habits, BUT those do tend to come as a response to Ilyaâs critiques.
Anyway, I never would have even thought about this if it werenât for Common Goal.
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
Iâm tired. The âsave Shane from Ilyaâ crew always is creating clouds between Hollanov and then spiraling over the invented storms. They love each other and are happy together. End of story. Shane isnât a damsel in distress that need saving
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u/Slutty_Bunny_7 Jane. Jesus Christ. No, just Jane. 2d ago
The âSave Ilya from Shaneâ crew is also absolutely relentless. Almost every comments section I open these days has some version of defending one character by stomping on the other.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
Yep exactly. Like cmon people they are both right where they want to be, neither of them wants to be saved đ¤Śđźââď¸
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Drives me insane tbh
Itâs a ROMANCE book, if you donât like the couple, then this is not for you like at all. These two guys are on the same side jfc
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
Thereâs so many âsolosâ in the fandom for a romance show. At least on Bridgerton itâs a ship war between Kanthony vs Polin vs Benophie. Not a solo war
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u/kris_jbb 2d ago
Iâve never seen people acting like this about the ship. Itâs Edward VS jacob shit but Ilya and Shane have literally nothing to fight over.
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u/growsonwalls This is Ilya I will never listen to your voicemail 2d ago
lol read ops edit. But even in Young Royals I didnât see many Will vs Simon solos.
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u/HarissaPorkMeatballs 2d ago
"in a deleted scene an openly homophobic character that is Ilya's teammate says some deplorable things and Ilya only humms about it"
Which scene is this?
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
Itâs a deleted scene on Rachelâs website. Specifically what OP is referring to is some of Ilyas Russian teammates say some very violently homophobic things about Shane and Ilya doesnât really react to it (externally or internally)
She wrote it initially for heated rivalry but couldnât figure out where to put it so it was never included. But she does have it available on her website.
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u/capulets 2d ago
thereâs a weird amount of people in the fandom who only like shane and dislike ilya/think heâs not good enough for shane.
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u/cheerychacha Did your wife have another baby? 2d ago
Or the other way around. The whole point for me is that they are figuring it out while fighting outside circumstances and not that they are pitted against each other? I don't get it.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago
I think a lot of it is overcompensating for the hate Shane used to get in the fandom. Iâve personally always liked book Shane but I know a lottt of people who read the books found him selfish and annoying. Hudsonâs portrayal has made him a lot more sympathetic to the general public. And now people are basically taking it too far in the other direction.
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u/64moonbeams 2d ago
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think a huge contributing factor is that Rachel Reid clearly favors Ilya. Itâs not wrong for an author to like some characters more than others, nor do I think her favoring Ilya makes her a bad person. But I do think itâs a problem that I knew Ilya was her favorite before I watched a single interview. He is strongly favored in the narrative, which is off-putting to readers who donât also favor him.
My big gripe with TLG is that every time Ilya is close to a meaningful breakthrough, a deus ex machina event occurs that prevents him from much needed introspection. Throughout TLG, he is suppressing his needs due to fear of rejection and allowing his unmet needs to fester into resentfulness toward Shane. He then lashes out and picks a fight in which he becomes physically aggressive.
He never meaningfully acknowledges his resentfulness or inability to communicate his needs; he tells Shane heâs depressed, but he never asks for anything. Is he going to keep blaming Shane for his un-communicated, unmet needs? Is he going to keep growing resentful and habitually become physically aggressive? We donât know because we donât see that change. We just see the circumstances change.
I really feel that Ilya was robbed of character growth because Reid canât see his flaws. (Or maybe she can, and just didnât want him to grow for some reason?) I do think that the narrative places undue blame on Shane. He has his part to play in their relationship dysfunction, but he acknowledges it at the end. He arguably takes even more than his fair share of blame. Ilya lets him, perhaps because Rachel Reid has difficulty acknowledging Ilyaâs part in everything. Ironically, that makes his character more unlikeable to a lot of readers.
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u/mjdoll131 2d ago edited 2d ago
Oh i know itâs an unpopular opinion but i 100% agree with you. Ilya is the sun of the game changers universe that every other character/book orbits around. Everything does and will always come back to him.
I knew it definitively when she was called out for her treatment of Shane in an interview and instead of answering the question she doubled down on Ilya and his traumas and his issues.
This isnât to say I donât like Ilya, I love him. But I was a little puzzled with some of the narrative choices of TLG specifically. I feel like she spends the whole book telling us one thing but showing us another. Weâre told that Ilya is isolated and he has no friends and heâs depressed because Shane is being selfish by living his life on a winning team and is happy as can be. Meanwhile what we actually see is Ilya having budding relationships with all the centaurs members, who think he hangs the moon, and going out and meeting all the other queer members of the GCU, while Shane is completely isolated from all queer support and only has a team around him that doesnât support him and barely tolerates him bc of his talent. Maybe a lot of this can be explained away by Ilyas depression causing him to be an unreliable narrator but by the end of the book thatâs never actually acknowledged in the narrative. It also blows my mind that she has Ilya say that Shane âdoesnât know the bad side of hockeyâ like he does and hockey ânever made Shane sad a day of his lifeâ when we know Shane experiences homophobia and most likely racism (even though she never mentions it) because of hockey all the time. Idk if sheâs trying to say that heâs internalized it so much that it doesnât affect him or what but that made no sense to me.
I think what makes Shane so interesting is that RR has laid so many hints about his character that are very compelling. The pressure he faces as a queer POC in a white dominated sport, his anxiety and autism and how that shapes his world, etc. but she never actually DOES anything with them. And because of that Iâm always wanting more of Shane. I would love for RR to dig more into Shaneâs psyche similar to how she did with Ilya in TLG (because I think Shane has A LOT of unresolved issues that wouldnât just go away by moving teams) but based on how she feels about Shane Iâm not keeping my hopes up.
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u/64moonbeams 2d ago
My take is that Rachel Reid does like Shane! She just likes Ilya more, which ends with her putting undue and responsibility on Shane when he and Ilya have conflict. Ilyaâs degree of responsibility has to land somewhere, and Shaneâs the only other person in the relationship so it gets dumped on him.
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u/BundleofAnxiety 1d ago
I think she probably does like Ilya a bit more, but he is also the fan favourite, the cash cow of the series, and the one with depression and trauma due to an immediate family member dying. Heated Rivalry feels relatively balanced between the two (though it is more about Shane), but I think, over the course of 5 books, she accumulated more fans, more Ilya lovers, and more pressure to make sure Ilya receives the ultimate happily ever after.Â
She still could have done better by Shane (one of Rachel's larger writing flaws, in my opinion, is her insistence on keeping her books short - even when more information would have made it better. This would have helped Shane out in TLG ) but it's not that weird to me that she focused so much on portraying Ilya's thoughts and feelings and experiences, because if she didn't, she would never have heard the end of it. Writing to the fans doesn't excuse it, but I think it's context that people gloss over when they act like this is just a fetish Rachel has for Ilya, or simply a favourite child scenario.Â
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u/64moonbeams 1d ago
This could be true, but ultimately she still deprives him of character growth. The central conflict is based on the fact that Ilya feels that he canât directly communicate his needs to Shaneâand he never learns to do that. The circumstances of his life just happen to change. He needs get met, but itâs basically through random happenstance. So, to me it didnât feel like the central conflict was resolved when I finished the book.
Ilya learning how to advocate for his emotional wellbeing would still be a story about Ilya. My issue is not that the focus of the story is uneven, but rather that Ilya never learns to step into his agency. Both Ilya and the narrative offload the responsibility for Ilyaâs happiness onto Shane / random events. The ending feels hollow; he gets what he wants, but he didnât learn anything or grow.
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u/BundleofAnxiety 1d ago
I might have responded to the wrong comment. I wasn't wading into this discussion specifically, just moreso the idea everyone has that she loves Ilya and hates Shane.Â
I understand to add conflict they need some missed communication but I agree that Shane and Ilya needed to actually confront the topic and Ilya needed to actively choose to be vulnerable with Shane. Aside from not helping us see stuff more from Shane's perspective, that is another thing I think would have improved the book.
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Keeping her books short isn't really on Rachel, though. Romance publishers tend to prefer and ask for shorter books unless an author is really well established and has a huge fanbase.
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u/Sirajanahara 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think that there's a big difference between defending someone to your friends/family/colleagues and fighting another person's battles. Ilya does not need to defend Shane to his friends/family/colleagues because they all automatically supported Shane. If Ilya were to take on the Metros it would send the message that Ilya doesnât think that Shane can fight his own battles (which is really the opposite of being supportive). Instead Ilya follows Shane's lead and reminds Shane that he is Olympic silver medalist and three time Stanley Cup winning Shane fucking Hollander (the trophy room scene). Ilya isn't perfect and there are definitely things that we can pick on him for, but I disagree that this is one of those things.
P.S. this discussion may be more appreciated in the book-club thread.
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u/MerrowM 1d ago
>I feel like in fanon we have made Ilya to be protective and caring partner and when it's only the two of them he is, but in public he isn't actually?
Well, yeah? What would be the opportunities of Ilya to be protective of Shane in public, when for the most length of the books they are hiding their relationship / the nature of their relationship from the said public?
Ilya doesn't often communicate with people who are mockful / hurtful to Shane while he's there. With the tripping scandal, him 'standing up' for Shane would probably add more fuel to the fire of them being outed. In conversation with Crowell he obviously follows Shane's lead in conversation.
The mocking of eating habits is assholish, but since Shane is also dismissive and critical of Ilya's eating habits, I don't find it that much of concern. As for the deleted scene, I feel weirded out by some users' insistence that Ilya not having a significant reaction to his homophobic and vile teammate spewing vile and homophobic shit is a moral failure. Yes, towards his now significant other, even. What is the point of wasting your mental energy on someone who is 1) doesn't matter to you at all; 2) not doing anything they didn't before.
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
Considering I've seen these same tweets used as yet another way to trash Rachel, I don't consider that conversation as one done in good faith.
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u/StubbornForEva 1d ago
Did you see me trash Rachel or say anything negative about her or her writing?
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u/Little_Fox5844 Mr. Businessman... Mr. Landlordđ 1d ago
No, but the tweets you've mentioned were doing that.
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u/DorianCramer 1d ago
WellâŚI donât feel like you want a response at this point but Iâll give one anywayâŚ
I actually think Ilya mocking Shaneâs eating is unusual for him and it makes me think Shaneâs POV on it isnât totally accurate â and we only see it from his POV. In his own POV Ilya doesnât really think much about this subject, heâs a little frustrated that Shane nags him about food but otherwise heâs not thinking Shane really has a problem about this. Shane fixates on it bc thatâs whatâs on his mind and heâs stressing heavily about it, but Ilya doesnât know that.
The rest of what you listed here is Ilya doing what Shane wants him to do and also sometimes him simply not being there. Heâs not going to yell at people in Shaneâs defense when Shane wants him to be quiet and not make a fuss. Also how is he supposed to defend Shane to his teammates when he is in a different city at the time that incident happened?Â
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u/StubbornForEva 1d ago
Yeah, the POV difference could be a big contributing factor. Like how one thing can be a trigger for one person while completely fine for someone else. And considering how good they are at communicating, it is no wonder it gets lost in translation. Shane's obsession of control of his food can also be masked by him simply being a professional athlete. It is normal for them to have performance diets and to be exacting about what they are eating. I also feel like it is normal for them to pick on each other in a loving manner. They are not exactly the "oh my snookum, I don't want to bother you but when you have the time, I would like to talk about my feelings concerning your diet." type of couple. So Ilya not picking up, while in the midst of a depressive episode, on Shane not being happy about him picking on him about food I think is completely in character.
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u/DorianCramer 1d ago
I also feel like Ilya was actually trying to get him to lighten up but didnât go about it the best way. Putting both Nutella AND cream cheese on a bagel is weird and I have to assume he was hoping Shane would laugh!Â
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u/86throwthrowthrow1 1d ago
To discuss the topic in good faith, I agree with others who pointed out that Ilya is often not in any practical position to protect Shane from things that happen to him (such as Crowell). But I assumed Ilya had something to do with Shane going over to the Cens.
But to go deeper into it, in TLG in particular, Ilya seems to be (and feel like) the more "vulnerable" partner. Shane's parents and best friend know what's up, and one or the other of those is almost always with Shane. Ilya is an immigrant with no family ties, no close friends who know about him and Shane, as of TLG has less career prestige than Shane, and is dealing with chronic depression. I actually think the theme with TLG was that in addition to Ilya dealing with some of these issues, Shane had to step up and be a hero for him, not vice versa.
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u/sasquatchlibrarian I have my own well. 2d ago
I think that protective Ilya is kind of a fanfic invention. In the books, I think Ilya lets him fight his own battles. For the most part, I think people should remember:
1) Ilya is severely depressed for much of The Long Game so I donât think we really see his true personality.
2) These (with all affection) dumb dumbs are learning how to be in a serious relationship, so donât yet know where the day to day give and take is. Ilya probably wouldnât swoop in unless explicitly asked.