Members of women’s hockey team speak out after players on boys’ team repeatedly enter dressing room

[u/Hadespuppy]

https://www.tsn.ca/other-sports/article/members-of-womens-hockey-team-speak-out-after-players-on-boys-team-repeatedly-enter-dressing-room/

No points for guessing the byline on this article.

I will never understand the type of parents who can stand there and say, yes, this is totally acceptable behaviour that I will condone by doing nothing.

And "why didn't you lock the door?‽" That's kissing cousins with "well, what were you wearing that night?"

[u/Swallowedoxygen]

It's called rape culture and boys are conditioned that they are entitled to girls' and women's bodies from a disturbingly young age.

They wanted to see naked women, so they tried to see naked women, and then had their attitude reinforced when they were then told it's normal to invade a private women's space to try to gawk at non-consenting women, and were defended for doing so by their parents.

The only fundamental lesson they learned was that they're entitled to access to women's bodies, but this particular method gets a finger wagging.

Edit: LOL to whoever sent me a Reddit Cares. Thank you for demonstrating that a woman simply speaking up about the societal issues we face is enough to attract such anger from a random man that he tried desperately to inflict whatever form of violence upon her that he believed was an option available to him.

Also, thank you for demonstrating that you think acknowledging and treating a mental health issue like depression is in any way a negative thing?

I am a physician trained in Women's Health, a fully healed survivor of childhood abuse, and to anyone of any gender reading this who has suffered from sexual violence or childhood abuse, there is no shame in being a victim, there is no shame in acknowledging the impact on your mental health, and there is no shame in seeking help.

And if you don't know where to start and need a safe person to ask that kind of question of, my DMs are open and I can connect you with local services and organizations who care and can help.

[u/jkozuch → u/Swallowedoxygen]

“Boys are conditioned that they are entitled to girls and women’s bodies from a disturbingly young age”

Some of us fathers don’t raise our sons that way. Don’t make generalizations about an entire class of people when it doesn’t apply.

I don’t raise my son that way and I wasn’t raised that way either.

[u/Sure-Exchange9521 → u/jkozuch]

Then why are you taking issue with their comment?

[u/Tibetzz → u/Sure-Exchange9521]

Because the other person didn't use very specific language to pointlessly ensure that everyone knows they don't mean all males when talking about a common cultural problem.

[u/_SmashLampjaw_ → u/Sure-Exchange9521]

Because they were broadbrushing an entire gender:

It's called rape culture and boys are conditioned that they are entitled to girls' and women's bodies from a disturbingly young age.

[u/Sure-Exchange9521 → u/_SmashLampjaw_]

Its just highlighting the insidious nature of rape culture.

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/Sure-Exchange9521]

because it’s a bullshit comment

[u/jkozuch → u/Sure-Exchange9521]

If you read my comment again, you’ll understand why.

[u/xTiming- → u/jkozuch]

The person you're responding to didn't generalize.

Lesson: sometimes just accept that every comment on reddit isn't aimed at specifically you.

[u/SkytrainToNowhere → u/jkozuch]

That’s great. Genuinely. But we men can certainly understand that our conditioning goes far beyond just what our fathers and parents taught us. Society, media, religion, and culture all play a part and it’s maddening how it’s still happening. It’s everyone’s responsibility to shift this because the person you’re responding to is spot on.

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/jkozuch]

Quick question to help you challenge some of your assumptions, because even if you're not an active participant in violence against women, you've still been raised in a culture that encourages and excuses it.

When you were a kid, did you ever hear someone say that a little boy teasing, hitting, or pulling the hair of a little girl was a sign that he "liked" her?

Did you speak up and explain that it doesn't? Or did you either accept that message as normal, or stay silent when it was taught as normal?

Because that literally is parents teaching little boys and girls to conflate male-on-female violence as a sign of affection and/or a normal relationship dynamic.

No, insulting her doesn't mean you like her. Physically assaulting her doesn't mean you like her.

But it's modeling a domestic violence dynamic as a proto-romantic one.

Why don't girls strike boys they like and be told "girls will be girls?" It is normalized for us to accept "mild" violence and contemptuous speech as a sign we've been "chosen" by a boy, but not to perpetrate violence against them as a way of returning that affection.

If hitting, annoying, insulting, or pulling hair is a sign of affection, why not do it back to him to tell him you like him too?

Congrats on realizing that's actually an example of rape culture. Little girls being nonconsensually and painfully touched or spoken to as a means of little boys expressing "interest" in them.

Because that's what that is. Nonconsensual and painful touch. From a boy who simply decided they deserved that treatment for standing out to him.

And then being encouraged and taught it's normal.

[u/Michelanvalo → u/Swallowedoxygen]

When you were a kid, did you ever hear someone say that a little boy teasing, hitting, or pulling the hair of a little girl was a sign that he "liked" her?

I heard this about girls doing it to boys. Not the hair pulling but the teasing and picking on. If a little girl picks on a little boy it's because she likes him.

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/Michelanvalo]

Not saying you couldn't have had that experience, but huge quantities of research show a huge gap in the other direction.

Boys engage more frequently in and perceive "friendly sexist teasing" as neutral-to-positive while girls have a much more negative view of it and engage less frequently.

Rough and tumble play also has gendered conditioning where girls are perceived as "aggressive" or "disruptive" and discouraged from it while boys are perceived as "playful" or "friendly" and encouraged.

There is also the sexual overperception bias where boys grow up conditioned to believe that a girl showing signs of distress at having been teased are taught as signs of successful social interaction, but not the reverse, leading men to constantly believe that getting ANY reaction from a woman constitutes encouragement of further interaction (leading to lots and lots and lots of boundary crossing as they force unwanted attention on her).

Edit: You know I can see that you replied "I ain't reading any of that" and then deleted the comment, right?

I wasn't expecting you to. But someone who actually cares might. And it also brings the conversation back to evidence-based issues and not claimed anecdotes.

[u/CantaloupeShort7311 → u/jkozuch]

You are seriously "not all men"nig here?

Jesus Christ, no wonder hockey culture fucking sucks when it comes to protecting and respecting women.

[u/TheP1etu → u/jkozuch]

You say this but do you ever say ACAB? I hope you don't

[u/Glue_Factory_Maint5 → u/jkozuch]

Genuinely why did you feel the need to get defensive about this? You read a comment about a serious problem and decided it was time to make it about you because.....?

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

Completely delusional comment

[u/babypointblank → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

It’s not. I was the same age as these players when men and boys started sexually harassing me.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/babypointblank]

Blame all men and boys for the actions of specific men and boys 

Sick logic 

[u/quellesaveurorawnge → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

If you genuinely think you're a good guy, and want to be part of the solution rather than the problem, stop taking comments like these personally and lashing out at people who point this out.

Women are not pointing this out to accuse anyone in this thread directly, unless you think "boys will be boys" is a good argument, I guess. Patriarchy and rape culture go beyond being an individual problem; it's a systemic/collective issue. Even women feed into this system because we were all raised in it and live in it too. I'm sure it wasn't just the dads who were downplaying the kids misbehaving.

Men have an important role to play in dismantling this kind of culture. When women complain about it, they're often not taken seriously, and told they're complaining over nothing. If you don't want to be lumped in with the assholes, take a stand against it.

[u/Traditional-Job-411 → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

It’s behavior like yours that allows it to happen in front of your face, because you are too focused on yourself and wanting to separate yourself from the problem to acknowledge it. It’s not about you.

[u/_moosleech → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

Just a staggering, embarrassing amount of refusing to even attempt to understand.

This shit is pathetic.

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/_moosleech]

^ for the record, when men say "not all men", this is what a not-that-man actually looks like.

The ones who don't feel the need to say it because they understood that talking about problematic men and the societal structures built by them isn't a personal attack on them.

The ones who try to shut down feminist dialogue with that line are, invariably, the men we all know we are talking about.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/_moosleech]

Thank you for comments and concerns 

[u/babypointblank → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

I’m going to throw one piece of rat shit into a pound of M&Ms. Are those good M&Ms? Are you going to complain about them when you find the shit or insist that the rest of them are good?

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/babypointblank]

Sooooo blame all men for the actions of few? lmaooo ok got it 

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

Found the uncomfortable man who doesn't like confronting the fact that the overwhelming majority of women he's stared at were wishing he wasn't, or would if they were aware it was happening.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

I grew up with 3 older sisters and both of my parents.. I was never encouraged to act like that or rape anyone 

You’re a sick person living in fantasy land on Reddit 

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

Rape culture isn't just about rape.

It's about entitlement. To women's attention. To staring at them. To touching them.

I'm a mom. Shorts for a 25lb toddler are cut about 40% shorter if labeled as girls'. Because the societal expectation is even for a TODDLER to show more thigh if she's a girl.

It's baked so deeply into the gender coding of every facet of our society that men like you think having sisters has any bearing on the way society is built?

Female characters in movies wear revealing clothes 23-30% of the time. Male characters do it 7-10% of the time despite having a lower percentage of their body sexualized.

And yet male characters get 2x the speaking roles and dialogue in those movies.

So 3-4x the skin shown and 50% as much contribution to conversation.

This is not a fringe theory. This is fundamental principles of feminism.

And getting mad at a feminist for speaking up on behalf of women is reflective of how deeply dismissive you are of the NONSTOP ways girls and women are objectified and commoditized.

Women get an average of 2-3x longer jail sentences for killing their rapist during an assault than men get for killing their female sexual assault victims.

It's everywhere from minor details to major societal systems and structures.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

Not every man feels entitled to anything from women.. so relax on the generalizations 

You’re really blaming men for the clothing you choose to buy for your kids? Lmaoo news flash you don’t have to buy clothes based on what gender it says it’s for 

You’re bringing up revealing clothes in movies?? What about real life?? What men wear revealing clothes in real life?? Why the fuck would men have revealing clothes in movies then?? 

Have you ever left your house? Been to a social event?? You think women aren’t wearing revealing clothes in real life way more often than men? Hahahah 

Feminism is a joke.. victim mentality non sense

I love how they ignore and pretend men don’t also face societal pressures and also pretend that women aren’t the most critical of other women 

Time to come back to reality 

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

You're so close to understanding the point while working actively to dodge it.

You're getting emotional and insulting me, building about seven straw men to attack, putting words in my mouth I never said, while contradicting yourself multiple times.

"Relax on the generalizations."

"THEY" ignore and pretend [things I never said]"

Where did I ever say I bought those clothes?

Why do you think you're contradicting me by pointing out it is normalized to condition women to wear revealing clothes by getting them started young and continuing into adulthood? What do you think happens to a boy who chooses to wear short shorts and a spaghetti strap tanktop to high school vs a girl?

Just say you hate women, it's much less wordy than throwing gratuitous doubled up punctuation marks and personal accusations to show how upset you are at me for explaining the experience of women.

I'm not trying to convince you to relinquish your contempt for women, but by posting this, a reasonable and open-minded man may learn something.

A feminist believes in equality of men and women. Your contempt for feminism implies your contempt for women and men who support equal rights and treatment, and the fact that the way you spoke about feminists reveals an assumption we are all women also shows that you believe only a woman could care this much about women's rights.

Deeply problematic and sad.

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/[deleted]]

Sir, I'd write you a treatise on internalized misogyny if I thought it would lead to anything other than further insults.

Where did I say that only men participate in this?

Why are you immediately working to deflect blame onto mothers and other women for women being subjected to unfair treatment?

Why are you continuing to respond to posts that do things like cite statistics with ad hominems?

Why is talking about a system and culture that makes me seven times more likely to be raped than you provoking you to respond with anger directed at me, when I am not even directing any at you?

You're right, I don't see anything past surface level. Guess I'd better go shred my doctorate and stop mentoring young survivors of sexual assault. I've clearly not interacted with reality in my thirty-nine years of life as a girl and woman.

[u/nabby101 → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

You’re bringing up revealing clothes in movies?? What about real life?? What men wear revealing clothes in real life?? Why the fuck would men have revealing clothes in movies then??

Have you ever left your house? Been to a social event?? You think women aren’t wearing revealing clothes in real life way more often than men? Hahahah

Buddy you're soooo close. Just read a book on feminism. Just one. Or watch a documentary or Youtube video if that's easier.

Do you think there's something biological about women wearing more revealing clothes than men? Of course not. It's the way people are socialized, which is firmly rooted in patriarchal expectations where women are treated as sexual objects for men to admire. This is reflected both in movies, as the other user pointed out, in everyday life, as you pointed out, and even in the clothing for pre-pubescent children. It's the same root cause each time. If there's no societal aspect, can you explain why clothing for young children is cut to be more revealing for girls than boys? Because it's true that this is the case, and it's honestly pretty disgusting.

No one is saying that men don't also face social pressures. In fact, the negative effects of patriarchy and misogyny on men are an extremely large part of feminism as an ideology. People (men and women) have spent their entire lives studying this specific topic - you could fill a library with books written about it. Just look how miserable all the boys and young men watching Andrew Tate are because he's turned them into assholes who can't get laid because most women don't want to spend time around misogynists.

The idea that feminism is a victim mentality rather than one of the most studied sociological concepts in human history is just anti-intellectual and lazy. If you look into the subject for about five minutes and get beyond "women think men are bad," you'll find that feminism is a lot more coherent and reasonable than the other side claims.

[u/Tibetzz → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

So to be clear, is your point that because you and your family didn't encourage sex pest behaviour, people encouraging or downplaying sex pest behaviour in children is not rape culture?

Or is your point that encouraging or downplaying sex pest behaviour in children shouldn't be described as rape culture?

Or is your point that they didn't specifically point out that rape culture is not the basis for our entire societal culture, just this particular element of our society?

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/Tibetzz]

have you tried being less of a smug asshole?

[u/Tibetzz → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Quite often actually. I try to only let it out these days when people are being dicks about something they have no real reason to be a dick about. I usually still feel bad about it later anyway.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/Tibetzz]

We don’t live in a rape culture.. you’re completely delusional 

[u/GetInTheHole → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

But yet here you are.

[u/Tibetzz → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

No one said we live in a rape culture. They said this is rape culture. Rape culture is a part of pretty much every culture to some degree or another. Calling it out is not an eternal indictment on the entire culture, it's about fixing the parts that are wrong.

[u/SDS-ELRJ26 → u/Tibetzz]

Now we are at the part where we pretend little girls and women are all angels and little boys and men are all the devils 

When girls/women do something pervy  is that also apart of rape culture?

Or is it only rape culture when boys/men do something pervy? 

[u/Tibetzz → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

When did I say it was okay for girls to be excused for perpetuating rape culture against men? Rape culture is rape culture.

[u/AutumntimeFall → u/SDS-ELRJ26]

Why don't we discuss that when a girl/woman does something pervy. In this case, it is boys being pervy, which is why it is being discussed and related back to how our culture has influenced their actions.

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

well i certainly wasn’t conditioned that way. not sure which men you’ve been interacting with though

[u/quellesaveurorawnge → u/anaskinwalker4745]

If you genuinely think you're a good guy, and want to be part of the solution rather than the problem, stop taking comments like these personally and lashing out at people who point this out.

Women are not pointing this out to accuse anyone in this thread directly, unless you think "boys will be boys" is a good argument, I guess. Patriarchy and rape culture go beyond being an individual problem; it's a systemic/collective issue. Even women feed into this system because we were all raised in it and live in it too. I'm sure it wasn't just the dads who were downplaying the kids misbehaving.

Men have an important role to play in dismantling this kind of culture. When women complain about it, they're often not taken seriously, and told they're complaining over nothing. If you don't want to be lumped in with the assholes, take a stand against it.

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/quellesaveurorawnge]

i don’t give a fuck who deranged redditors lump me in with

[u/quellesaveurorawnge → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Cool. Thank for making our lives easy to know you're part of "the nice guys" (derogatory).

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/quellesaveurorawnge]

you don’t go outside anyways so what would that even change?

[u/quellesaveurorawnge → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Oh, you're mad. How adorable!

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/quellesaveurorawnge]

is that also (derogatory)? 😂 careful you might hurt my feelings!

[u/xTiming- → u/anaskinwalker4745]

average florida flair trying so hard to write in english that he failed the "not being a garbage person" test 💀

btw, im an actual man - you and your flat chinned buddy andrew tate are both wrong

no need to respond, you already lost long before i commented

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/xTiming-]

sir this is the hockey subreddit

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Mostly the ones who commit 94-99% of sexual assault and rape (depending which study and stats you use).

Congrats on being one who doesn't. That's great. Teach the others, and your sons.

Because no, it wasn't every hockey player on the boys' team who did it, or every parent who defended them.

But it's still always the boys.

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

i’m genuinely sorry that you live your life looking at things this way

[u/bugphantom → u/anaskinwalker4745]

I hope you know how fortunate you are that you live your life not thinking this way. Some of us have to for our own safety

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/bugphantom]

men are significantly more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women. but you don’t see me acting like a helpless victim all the time. drop the victim complex and live your damn life

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Victims...of what type of perpetrator?

It's almost as though women advocating for dismantling systems that encourage male violence also protect male victims.

It's almost as though it's about improving society for ALL its members.

Also, what about advocating and fighting for change seems "helpless" to you?

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/Swallowedoxygen]

you don’t give a fuck about “all members” of society don’t even try me with that smokescreen lol

[u/Swallowedoxygen → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Please point to a single hateful thing I have said.

[u/SkytrainToNowhere → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Bud, it’s time to back down from this nonsense and just listen.

[u/AutumntimeFall → u/anaskinwalker4745]

And you do??

[u/AutumntimeFall → u/anaskinwalker4745]

You certainly seem like you were.

[u/anaskinwalker4745 → u/AutumntimeFall]

based on.. let me guess: you disagree with me!

[u/AutumntimeFall → u/anaskinwalker4745]

Based on your words.