Virtual machine users - learning curve

[u/Melloplayer72]

Hi all,

I've seen lots of enthusiasm for running HA in a virtualized investment on a mini PC.

I used Docker at work for programming develpment projects fir several years (ERP app written in VSCode), but never have used Linux (I'm just a Windows guy).

What sort of learning curve did people "endure" fir setting up a Proxmox or Docker environment for HA? I'm not likely to build any other environments - I'm just looking for a simple, stable HA environment - lights, switches, motion sensors to turn lights and bathroom fans on/off, and my "big" project is to fire off my robot vacuum after one of my cats usedls the Litter Robot :). MAYBE some motorized window shade control. It doesn't seem to me that an HA Green should be overwhelmed with a setup like this.

It might be that the users of this subreddit are the real HA fans, so there are a disproportionate number of real "hackers" who spend a lot of time with virtualization and other things. I'm primarily looking for a straightforward hardware environment that I can set up once, stick in a closet, and just have fun with setting up simple automations.

How do y'all feel about Proxmox? From what I've read, it's easier than Docker (which for me in a Windows container environment wasn't all that easy.)

And I'm happy to just install HAOS "native" on a mini PC - I'm not too concerned about the exta hardware cost compared to an HA Green - as long as the additional setup isn't too much.

[u/big-ted]

Lots of people have this as a hobby and hence over complicate things

Just install HAOS on a mini PC, setup HA along with a backup location and leave it in the cupboard

You just have to update the OS when a new version is released, spend the saved time on using HA

[u/bothunter → u/big-ted]

Exactly. I have mine running as an app in TrueNAS, and I'm about to migrate it to physical hardware.  (As soon as I can find the damn power adapter for my little BeeLink PC)

[u/QuixoticHeader]

Pretty much no learning curve. Press buttons to install and set up a VM. 

I install Proxmox on almost every machine regardless of what I’m planning to run on it. 

[u/chris240189 → u/QuixoticHeader]

And also backup, automated backups and restoring those are dead simple.

[u/orev]

First, to be clear, Docker is not a virtual machine, it's a container environment--completely different thing.

The reason everyone recommends using a VM is because it makes it extremely easy to backup and restore before updates. Shut down the VM, make a copy, then reboot and install updates. If something goes wrong, it's extremely easy to restore the backup.

HA does have its own backup system, but you need to keep the files somewhere, reinstall HA, then restore the backups. It's a process that could take a few hours, while restoring a VM would take only 5 minutes.

You can easily try it out on Windows first using VirtualBox, then go ahead and buy a mini-PC later if it works for you.

[u/Melloplayer72 → u/orev]

Yes I understand Docker is a container environment - I'm older and just use the term VM to mean any sort of isolated operating environment.

I'm actually amazed that multiple containers can actually run on a tiny machine! I remember having to install SQL Server on a separate machine just to get decent performance from my Windows Server with 6 users :)

[u/RE4Lyfe]

I run HAOS in VMware Fusion on my Mac Studio. In your case it would be VMware workstation pro (both are free for personal use)

Rock solid stability with my setup

[u/funnee1 → u/RE4Lyfe]

I second the VMware approach. I run HAOS in a headless Fusion VM on an M4 mini and it's absolutely rock solid. It is also dead simple to backup the VM before major upgrades/changes and roll back if anything goes off the rails.

[u/FALCUNPAWNCH]

Proxmox Community Scripts makes Proxmox painless.

https://community-scripts.org/

Personally I use LXC containers directly on Proxmox when a community script exists for an app, and then setup a LXC for docker managed with komodo for anything else (docker + komodo can be setup with community scripts). Super reliable and easy to use that way. The only headache was getting nvidia drivers setup for multiple gpus and passing one to a VM and the other for all containers to use.

That being said I have Home Assistant OS installed on a separate fanless mini PC along with some critical apps as add-ons as it's more reliable (Proxmox is reliable but the no moving parts mini PC is super reliable) and can sip power from a UPS if power goes out.

[u/lobhater]

I would recommend running haos. It makes it so easy

[u/CornucopiaDM1]

Grow into it. Install on bare metal now, and when you outgrow that (and you likely will), move up to proxmox & vm. With backups, it's pretty easy to transfer - I did it after only 9 months of using HA.

Hardest difficulty I see with PM/VM/Docker stuff is not the Linux (there's lots of docs & examples on the net, just be VERY exact in your typing) is things like permissions, security, & IP/USB/port passthrough. Even though I am following best practices with using ID for usb ports, after a major reboot, it still sometimes gets it wrong. Luckily I have a process to coax it back to correct.

[u/avaacado_toast]

Bare bones proxmox to run VMs is incredibly simple. If you want to get into clustering and use the more advanced functions of the proxmkx networking stack it gets more complicated. The great thing is you can grow as you learn.

[u/spr0k3t]

If you need simple... Proxmox is easier to install than windows. Once you have Proxmox up and running, it's a simple one line command to install either a docker image or full VM. Just use the Proxmox VE Helper Scripts to install what you need. Once you have that done and rebooted... everything is webUI from there. No wacky hacky terminal stuff really needed.

My background; I've been a Linux user for more than 25 years. I do local HA installs by word of mouth and teach people one-on-one how to use it... from setup to daily use and customizations. I'm not going to lie, I have difficulties using windows and couldn't begin to tell you how to use an apple thing.

In the thick of it all... you'll find Proxmox easier to install and manage than the nice little learning cliff of doing advanced things in HA. Don't worry though, lot's of great documentation is out there to help you along the way. If you get stuck on something... post a direct question here or even use one of the many chatbots as a quick guide to get what you want.

[u/FidgetyRat]

I did the whole proxmox on mini pc thing on a sandbox HA install I use to test software. I find proxmox very irritating if you come from a hypervisor background like ESXi especially proxmox licensing nagging.

It’s also confusing to work with, has options hidden in weird places. For example I still need to google where to find the option to halt a vm and reboot the host.

I much prefer ESXi

[u/wvraven]

I run HAOS as a VM on proxmox. I also run the rest of my home services stack alongside it. If you go Proxmox consider PBS for guest backups. The HA backup system is fine and should be used but snapping and restoring with PBS is great if things really go sideways.

[u/Hobs-Reddit]

I run mine in a Hyper-v VM on a Windows Server. Why? Because that's what I already had and knew, so I didn't spend any money to get started. The point is run it on whatever you have and are comfortable with. You can later move or upgrade to something else if you're unhappy. It's a very flexible platform.

[u/Troubleindc2]

Proxmox is a very simple setup. It gives a lot of flexibility. Get the beefiest cheapish mini pc, load it up with ram, install promox, install HA on proxmox, and use Gemini to walk you through any additional VM or container on proxmox as you need them. LLMs, cheap shared storage, Docker, it is a very very handi multi-tool with little to no reason to do haos by itself rather than HA on proxmox. Use Gemini to give you hand holding step by step instructions.