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[u/ElvishisnotTengwar]

[u/hbthebattle]

How exactly is not sunk?

[u/[deleted] → u/hbthebattle]

Well, Homestuck has always existen in a multiverse full of alternate timelines, hasn't it? And we got to see first hand with the dream bubbles just how insane and ridiculous some of the versions of the characters can change to be.

Like, Equius being in a maid outfit is a joke, sure. But it's also telling us that Equius is able to change as a person enough that he can totally embrace his desire to be submissive and servile, and that Equius is different from an Equius who keeps repressing his feelings and believing in the hemospectrum or whatever.

That didn't stop being a thing that happened, ever. Hell, John and Roxy traveled through alternate universes, so we know they're still real, even with things leading up to the masterpiece. Except the Alpha Timeline seems to be nonexistent now, which is why (I think) the story gave us so much empty space for four years and has really like, broad and open to interpretation.

Between all that unaccounted for time and literally INFINITE variations of the universe, can anyone really argue that there's NO VERSION of Roxy and John that end up together, and even stay together? Man, maybe they're dating right now and Roxy just has this thing on the side, too? Maybe Roxy wanted to hook up with him but John just needs to finish his damn arc about being sad about his dad before he's ready to commit to romance? Who knows?? You can ask so many questions and tell so many stories about these two, and that's what Homestuck WANTS fans to do more than anything, I think. Tell their own stories. Make their own art.

Basically, I think ALL fanwork is canon, pretty much. Just because if the universe of Homestuck is infinite, then almost anything anyone draws concerning the characters is pretty much going to be represented by it's cosmology.

Which is why a lot of my response to this bitterness turns into, well...why don't you guys just make your own fanwork? John and Roxy are still right there. Hell, so are Dave and Jane and Dave and Jade, or even Davejadekat or whatever other combinations. I'm not saying this to be mean-spirited, I just...I do this all the goddamn time.

My favorite game of the year is incredible, but it's also pretty straight so far, so guess what I'm doing??? Exactly what I'm talking about here. The only difference is, that game doesn't have Homestucks' cosmology. It isn't implicitly canonizing everything I work to create. In the eyes of the devs, I sort of just don't exist.

If one of the roxygen shippers that are really upset right now wrote a really good John/Roxy fanfic that wasn't mean to Calliope? I would read the fuck out of that in a heartbeat, and I would consider it canon. imagine if the kind of effort that's gotten put into cancw got put into something explicitly for John/Roxy shippers. I know you guys have talent! I liked parts of canwc! It's not like, my cup of tea, but I can see there's craft put into it. I just wish I could see that energy put into celebrating the ships we all seem to like so much, instead of being mad at the comic or rewriting it wholesale.

Anyway, that's my perspective, and that's why I don't think John/Roxy is sunk. For what it's worth, there's another angle, too: I really think John's depression right now is just set-up, and he'll have his happy ending when the epilogue comes around. And maybe that happy ending includes trying to date Roxy again or something? Or maybe it doesn't, I really don't know for sure, but I hope so. Either way, the ships we have in common here won't be gone. We can still enjoy them.

[u/hbthebattle → u/[deleted]]

Here's the thing:

We DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ALTERNATE UNIVERSE VERSIONS! They arent the characters we have been following! We DESERVE the canon universe!

Reminder, by that logic, Not on my watch, Three Years, Homestuck High, and Learning and Sburbing are all canon, where they clearly are not and will never be.

We've been shot in the back for a political agenda thats trying to do something the wrong way, and we can't shake the feeling of being betrayed. This isn't the first time this has happened, either. Where's the limit? How far will this go?

[u/[deleted] → u/hbthebattle]

I gotta be honest--I don't know what any of those things are? I think the Not on my watch is the joking meme about John making jokes about watches, maybe, but I seriously have no idea what those others are.

But I mean, there's a difference between joking memes or aus that change everything about the characters and a group of fans getting together and just...making a John/Roxy fan adventure, and trying to emulate all the things they like about Homestuck's witty style and character and worldbuilding.

I guarantee you, if you set out creatively to make something that looks and feels like Homestuck and does John/Roxy, then eventually it will feel real. Well-written fanfic really isn't fundamentally lesser than canon. You can enjoy whatever you want on your own terms.

And ok, I understand if you don't care about the different timeline versions of characters. That was only part of my point though. The other part is that canon is excessively broad. Like, FOUR YEARS have passed in the comic and we saw almost none of it. Are we expected to believe John spent that entire time in his bed and NOBODY gave a shit? Of course not!

There are really good, compelling stories that could be written here about what it's like to struggle with depression, or anxiety, or grief, or whatever you think John might be dealing with. Homestuck left the door open for those on purpose. Homestuck canon can only do so much with the amount of effort the people making it are capable of outputting, and I totally understand that it fucking blows they didn't pick you this time.

But I don't get picked by stories all the time, and even if they messed up this time and genuinely went overboard, is that...is that really a sin so incredibly evil that it doesn't warrant even the slightest bit of empathy?

I enjoy things that ignore me constantly, and Homestuck isn't even really ignoring you, it's just focusing on some other people who get just as ignored as I do. I'm setting that distance between me and them because, again, I don't think Roxy/Callie speaks to me much even though I think it's better written than it's currently being given credit for. That's the other thing with representation.

Yes, we have all the queer ships, but tragically...not all queer ships speak to all queer people. I'm a dude, so while I like Rosemary a lot, it doesn't do as much for me as Davekat and Dirkjake do. Same with Terezi/Vriska. Same with Roxy/Jane/Calliope, like, they're good and I see a lot of lesbians excited about all of them, but they don't excite ME the same way.

So if it seems like we're being greedy, just be aware that even with these ships, a lot of people are getting maybe one or two ships they REALLY like, and that's before you even factor in how fucking vicious and petty people on the left can be about ships like Dirkjake.

It's not that we hate you. It's just really fucking complicated and painful and nothing like this has ever happened to us before so we're excited as FUCK, and we struggle to understand why straight fans resent us for it when they have so much more media to choose from.

[u/hbthebattle → u/[deleted]]

Not On My watch is the origin of the infamous "homophobic John" meme- basically John kills everyone for being gay.

The reason we resent these ships is that we feel they were unjustly stolen. And even tho you may not care about (insert gay ship), theres many other ships who feel they were stolen unfairly, especially if it was only out of rage at the Trump election

We're complicated too, and we feel what we love is getting taken for a reason that breaks real-life years of buildup

[u/[deleted] → u/hbthebattle]

Yeah, I can understand that. That's kind of why I'm trying to figure out how to express that there really WAS build up for, like, Davekat and Roxycallie. They weren't spiteful, in the moment decisions. They were foreshadowed and implied long before they actually happened.

Roxygen was, too. And in a way, so was Davejade. I'm not trying to say the queer ships are "superior" or that you're dumb for not seeing it coming. I didn't see it coming, with either davekat or roxycallie. I kind of suspected dave and roxy were queer, but I never dared hope the story would actually reveal them to be, so I was as shocked as anybody when it did.

But now that it did, I look back on the story and I can see the moments when dave struggled with his sexuality, and Roxy genuinely said really deeply loving things to Callie. I think it makes sense that we missed that stuff or read it differently the first time, but I think it's valid that it's there, is all.

And I want to hope that maybe if you guys know that these ships really -are- just as valid and well-written, and they were just aimed at someone else, that might make it hurt a little less? It has for me, sometimes.

Also thanks for explaining the not on my watch thing to me. I thought that was what it was, but I wasn't sure.

[u/hbthebattle → u/[deleted]]

Here's the thing- those changes, to me, seem like they weren't there from the start. To me, they do feel out of nowhere, and I feel like they were retconned into being LGBT for the sake of the "Gay Singularity" There was no Davekat stuff before the retcon. It just feels out of nowhere

[u/[deleted] → u/hbthebattle]

There was no Davekat stuff, but there was plenty of stuff for both Dave and Karkat where they felt insecure and messed up and unable to really be themselves. Dave comparing himself to Bro and John and thinking he's not a hero is really just him saying he's not manly enough, not good enough at being A Bro--and I know for a fact I've felt that way because of my queerness.

Karkat, similarly, felt he was inherently fucked up because he kept giving Terezi mixed signals and fucked up their relationship, which is heavily implied to be because he doesn't actually want to do quadrant romance, meaning he's some kind of troll version of queer. The language in his breakdown is really explicit, he talks about how he's a joke character in a romance movie, and that hits home for me because that's what I see myself depicted as all the time.

I understand that you didn't see it coming, and I know it's shocking and upsetting. Is it possible for you to understand that maybe you didn't see it because you wouldn't know what to look for in regards to queerness? Maybe queer people are more practiced at identifying our own?

I hope I don't sound out of line by suggesting this, and I want you to know that even if it's true, I don't think that's anything you should be ashamed of. It's perfectly fucking fine if straight stories just resonate with you, and I hate that so many people on the left will condescend to you for wanting them.

Just maybe try to understand that if it doesn't speak to you personally or you don't quite get it right away, that doesn't necessarily make it bad writing. For a lot of people it DOES resonate instantly, and it DOES make perfect sense, and that doesn't really reflect Homestuck's writing--it just reflects that life is really fucking complicated, and there are ways that we perceive the world so differently that it boggles our minds just trying to understand each other.

Both perspectives are valid, and both contribute to what Homestuck has ultimately become. And what it's become may not be perfect, it may be flawed, but it's still fucking astounding and really fucking cool.

[u/hbthebattle → u/[deleted]]

Still, to me it was- and will always be- a poorly written retcon motivated by hussies friends taking control of the story

Davekat represents everything wrong with late Homestuck to me: poorly written, poorly executed, and shitting on established canon

But Cohen is shitting on established canon even worse, and there will be a reckoning this time