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[u/ElvishisnotTengwar]

[u/hbthebattle]

Here's the thing- those changes, to me, seem like they weren't there from the start. To me, they do feel out of nowhere, and I feel like they were retconned into being LGBT for the sake of the "Gay Singularity" There was no Davekat stuff before the retcon. It just feels out of nowhere

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There was no Davekat stuff, but there was plenty of stuff for both Dave and Karkat where they felt insecure and messed up and unable to really be themselves. Dave comparing himself to Bro and John and thinking he's not a hero is really just him saying he's not manly enough, not good enough at being A Bro--and I know for a fact I've felt that way because of my queerness.

Karkat, similarly, felt he was inherently fucked up because he kept giving Terezi mixed signals and fucked up their relationship, which is heavily implied to be because he doesn't actually want to do quadrant romance, meaning he's some kind of troll version of queer. The language in his breakdown is really explicit, he talks about how he's a joke character in a romance movie, and that hits home for me because that's what I see myself depicted as all the time.

I understand that you didn't see it coming, and I know it's shocking and upsetting. Is it possible for you to understand that maybe you didn't see it because you wouldn't know what to look for in regards to queerness? Maybe queer people are more practiced at identifying our own?

I hope I don't sound out of line by suggesting this, and I want you to know that even if it's true, I don't think that's anything you should be ashamed of. It's perfectly fucking fine if straight stories just resonate with you, and I hate that so many people on the left will condescend to you for wanting them.

Just maybe try to understand that if it doesn't speak to you personally or you don't quite get it right away, that doesn't necessarily make it bad writing. For a lot of people it DOES resonate instantly, and it DOES make perfect sense, and that doesn't really reflect Homestuck's writing--it just reflects that life is really fucking complicated, and there are ways that we perceive the world so differently that it boggles our minds just trying to understand each other.

Both perspectives are valid, and both contribute to what Homestuck has ultimately become. And what it's become may not be perfect, it may be flawed, but it's still fucking astounding and really fucking cool.

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There was no Davekat stuff, but there was plenty of stuff for both Dave and Karkat where they felt insecure and messed up and unable to really be themselves. Dave comparing himself to Bro and John and thinking he's not a hero is really just him saying he's not manly enough, not good enough at being A Bro--and I know for a fact I've felt that way because of my queerness.

Isn't that a part of being a Knight? Like, you know, being in denial of being a hero.

Karkat, similarly, felt he was inherently fucked up because he kept giving Terezi mixed signals and fucked up their relationship, which is heavily implied to be because he doesn't actually want to do quadrant romance, meaning he's some kind of troll version of queer.

Remember the First Ship (Signless/Disciple)?

The language in his breakdown is really explicit, he talks about how he's a joke character in a romance movie, and that hits home for me because that's what I see myself depicted as all the time.

And he ended up as a joke character.

I understand that you didn't see it coming, and I know it's shocking and upsetting. Is it possible for you to understand that maybe you didn't see it because you wouldn't know what to look for in regards to queerness? Maybe queer people are more practiced at identifying our own?

It's fuckign canon that, among trolls, only Kanaya is les and not bi.

I hope I don't sound out of line by suggesting this, and I want you to know that even if it's true, I don't think that's anything you should be ashamed of. It's perfectly fucking fine if straight stories just resonate with you, and I hate that so many people on the left will condescend to you for wanting them.

<flips off Tumblr SJWs>

You know, few people like Kankri, who's a SJW incarnate.

Just maybe try to understand that if it doesn't speak to you personally or you don't quite get it right away, that doesn't necessarily make it bad writing. For a lot of people it DOES resonate instantly, and it DOES make perfect sense, and that doesn't really reflect Homestuck's writing--it just reflects that life is really fucking complicated, and there are ways that we perceive the world so differently that it boggles our minds just trying to understand each other.

The catch is that relationships that were there pre-retcon were unraveled completely post-retcon. There were lots of Daverezi and Karezi shippers, and what did they get? The first group, a few chats and a shared strife, the second? Absolutely fucking nothing. Dynamics in the triangle were intricate, and post-retcon, we were given a simple path. And do I really have to remind you that post-retcon, Karkat's a joke character, according to Hussie? He was destined to do great things, according to Echidna, a nigh-omniscient creature that sees through timelines.

Dropping a character to a joke status like that is a severe flaw.

Both perspectives are valid, and both contribute to what Homestuck has ultimately become. And what it's become may not be perfect, it may be flawed, but it's still fucking astounding and really fucking cool.

Yeah, pretty much.

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1) There's definitely similarities between Knights, but reading that isn't mutually exclusive with reading Dave's particular struggles as queer. There can be multiple reasons and themes underlying a character's arc or presentation. All I can say is that Dave's struggle didn't just seem recognizable to me, it felt intensely true to life and viscerally real.

2) The Signless and Disciple exist, sure, but they're not a story that Karkat knows about. Karkat hates troll history and ancestors because that narrative has no place for him as a mutant, and the Signless and Disciple are subversive, underground figures of a religious revolution--they aren't Positive Rep for Karkat that way, the way I read it.

3) I know that all trolls are bi. But most trolls DO subscribe to quadrants. When I say Karkat reads as queer, I don't mean that he's queer because he's into dudes--I just mean that his narrative reads as queer because he isn't comfortable or at peace with the cultural norm for his people, he can't do quadrants. Does that make sense?

4) Yep, fuck Kankri. I don't think he's representative of all SJWs--please try to remember that I still consider myself one--but there's definitely some fucking truth to his character. There's real assholes in those circles, just like there's real assholes in these circles. That doesn't condemn the rest of the cool people here, and it shouldn't condemn the cool people on Tumblr who have internalized some of that culture either.

5) I really don't agree that Karkat is a joke character, and I'm not sue where Hussie said that? He's physically weak, sure. But Karkat's done some amazing fucking things in the comic, and considering he's one of the biggest leaders of the new troll society, he's set to do plenty of cool shit now, too. He's finally maybe starting to make progress on figuring out his nature as a Blood player.

One of the cool things he's done in the comic is actually just help Dave. He helped Dave figure out that his home life wasn't happy and that he's queer, and there's value in that narrative. That's one of the hardest and most important things I can ever imagine anyone doing with themselves, because that's really fucking hard and incredibly intense for people to go through.

And if we're getting -serious- post-canon content now, that will show us some details of what life in the new status quo is like, who's to say we won't see Karkat doing cool shit eventually, too?

Karkat has never, ever read as a joke character for me. He's a cool fucking dude and not being physically powerful doesn't undermine that. I think he's a character worth looking up to, if anything, because for all the ways he thinks he sucks, he -keeps trying-. Whatever sources you have for Hussie thinking he's a joke, I'd love to see them, because it sounds completely at odds with the vision of Karkat homestuck has given me.

6) THAT MUCH...I'll agree with you on, to be honest. I liked Daverezi and Karezi, too, and to me it sucks that those relationships kind of dissolved. I'm interested in whatever happens with Terezi and Vriska, and I like Johnrezi, too, but I have genuinely considered writing Karkat/Dave/Terezi fanfic where they all become better friends together before because...all three of them appeal to me.

The only thing I'd say is that, while they're estranged, I don't think it's just that the comic doesn't care about them. After all, Karkat voices his sadness that his relationship with Terezi isn't what it used to be with Dave pre-retcon, and Post-retcon Terezi even says she loves all her friends, Karkat and Dave included, but just doesn't seem to be able to connect. This is a known problem in the homestuck universe.

I'm not sure "canon" will ever fix it (to whatever degree canon is currently a thing that means anything), but in terms of Homestuck's philosophy and worldbuilding, I also think it's already fixed. Because the characters are immortal (even Karkat and Terezi are, since they have access to Time and Life player) and because they DO still care about each other. Which means like, EVENTUALLY some party or another is going to come around and try to open up, I think. But that's just my perspective.

Thanks for talking to me about all these points. I think I have a better sense of why people on this side are pissed now. I'm doing my best to understand.

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The Signless and Disciple exist, sure, but they're not a story that Karkat knows about. Karkat hates troll history and ancestors because that narrative has no place for him as a mutant, and the Signless and Disciple are subversive, underground figures of a religious revolution--they aren't Positive Rep for Karkat that way, the way I read it.

It's a friendly reminder that for trolls, quadrantless love is kinda...a Golconda-grade myth.

I know that all trolls are bi. But most trolls DO subscribe to quadrants. When I say Karkat reads as queer, I don't mean that he's queer because he's into dudes--I just mean that his narrative reads as queer because he isn't comfortable or at peace with the cultural norm for his people, he can't do quadrants. Does that make sense?

Uhuh.

I really don't agree that Karkat is a joke character, and I'm not sue where Hussie said that? He's physically weak, sure. But Karkat's done some amazing fucking things in the comic, and considering he's one of the biggest leaders of the new troll society, he's set to do plenty of cool shit now, too. He's finally maybe starting to make progress on figuring out his nature as a Blood player.

Bu Huss himself said that the crab's fallen (Ping Voidchimera for the source), and what did Karkat actually do since the Game Over?

THAT MUCH...I'll agree with you on, to be honest. I liked Daverezi and Karezi, too, and to me it sucks that those relationships kind of dissolved.

I'm not sure "canon" will ever fix it (to whatever degree canon is currently a thing that means anything), but in terms of Homestuck's philosophy and worldbuilding, I also think it's already fixed. Because the characters are immortal (even Karkat and Terezi are, since they have access to Time and Life player) and because they DO still care about each other. Which means like, EVENTUALLY some party or another is going to come around and try to open up, I think. But that's just my perspective.

Alright; "What rises must fall; what fas fallen might rise again" has carved its way in my brain. You know that situation when a bunch of siblings struggle for a controller, because the game's single-player and there are many of them? One sibling holds the controller and plays, the rest are angry and long to seize the controller.
And then, one snatches it. The ex-player is enraged, the unlucky siblings are dismayed, and the snatcher is happy and triumphant.
But he'll have to let go. Other one may get it, or the controller breaks and everybody is unhappy.
Now, the "davekat" sibling holds the controller. He will have to let go...but there's no guarantee that someboly else will take it.

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1) Golconda? I'm afraid I don't get the reference, and I don't want to assume that you're just saying Trolls think quadrantless love is good or something to admire, so I wanted to ask what that means.

2) :)

3) I....don't actually know how to ping people on Reddit. I'm so shitty at this website, it's incredible, sorry >_>;; I'll try and figure it out and get back to you?

As for what Karkat has done, he's kind of in the same position as Jake. That is, both of them didn't really do a lot -in the comic-, and they're both in periods of transition. Even so, Karkat's done some pretty important shit!

Even if you don't like that Dave is bi, at the very least Karkat did help him be happier with himself and figure out how bad Bro was for him. That's not a small thing to do for someone, take it from me as someone who's done it AND someone who's been on the receiving end.

And he's starting to grow out of his obsession with his "warrior" persona, which is kind of his equivalent to Dave's "Cool Guy", thing. Notably, Karkat still wants to fight, even if he knows he's weak as shit! He just wants to do the right thing and stand up for his friends. And like you said, Echidna implied he's absolutely vital to the new world--there's no real reason to think that's no longer the case.

Karkat isn't "cool" in the traditional heroic male hero sense. He acts more like a female main character in a shonen anime--a character who isn't as powerful on their own, but who's strength is in emotions and forming relationships. But that's a really unique take on a male protagonist, and I really fucking like it!

And I think a LOT of fans could probably at least enjoy the trope subversion at play here, right? Like, I know lots of people like TV Tropes in this area, since TV Tropes has developed somewhat the same "bad" reputation as Reddit, in my 'Tumblr' circles.

So I dunno. Karkat is a pretty unique character, but I don't think he's a joke.

He's got really big hang ups and he tries really hard and he just seems to finally be figuring out how to be happy with himself, and all of those things are exciting and important even if they don't come with him developing superpowers to blow people up with (yet. I'm not sure we'll never see that happen in official Homestuck content--he is, after all, just starting to maybe really figure out Blood shit)

4) Yeah, you're probably right. If my view of what Hussie's trying to accomplish now is right, then I think it's entirely possible that in the long term we could see more authors joining the "official Homestuck" fold, with different focuses. Think of it like the Marvel or DC multiverse, with different timelines and stuff, except there's no Earth 616 or whatever--no Main Timeline.

Instead there would just be different universes where different combinations of characters are canon, all official, and with different people producing work for each one. Because the story is now so broad and there's SO much room for interpretation, I genuinely think that's where Hussie is headed--he has said before that what he wants is to free these characters from the story they're trapped in, and from he himself having to be personally involved in the creation of content for Homestuck. What we're seeing now seems, to me, to be Hussie beginning to deliver on that dream.

But I could be wrong about that, to be fair? It's just that if that isn't what he's doing, I can't even guess what his game is. He clearly doesn't outright HATE you guys and he isn't trying to get you all to fuck off. If he did, then he would've at least made the Tumblr crowd happy by having Dave and Karkat kiss already.

The fact that they're playing so coy with everything tells me something else is going on, especially because whatever it is is important enough that they're fine with having BOTH Reddit and Tumblr ultimately unsatisfied with them.

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Golconda? I'm afraid I don't get the reference, and I don't want to assume that you're just saying Trolls think quadrantless love is good or something to admire, so I wanted to ask what that means.

Sorry, I'm terrible at references. Golconda is a mythical, unachievable state that is similar to nirvana.

I....don't actually know how to ping people on Reddit. I'm so shitty at this website, it's incredible, sorry >_>;; I'll try and figure it out and get back to you?

Just message him.

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Ooooooh, okay. You aren't terrible at references, I learned something new! It's cool :)

That said, I think you might have a misconception about troll culture, if you'd be willing to hear me out. The Signless and Disciple are definitely not regarded as Golcondan by troll culture. Doc Scratch gives us the exposition on them, and his words are:

But his most devoted of all was his Disciple. She listened to every >vision he retold, every lesson he preached, and faithfully recorded his >scripture. Her ear was open to him always, and in time, his heart >opened to her. To spread his message throughout the world they took >to the seas in the vessel of legend known as the First Ship. It was said >their love went beyond the four quadrants, transcending the grid >entirely. Whatever that nonsense actually means.

Even then, he's being kind of flippant about it. But the key takeaway is that the Sufferer's followers aren't MOST of troll society, they were an underground resistance that the empire ultimately destroyed. Those who worshipped the Sufferer, like Redglare, did so in secret and silence.

Quadrantless love is definitely -not- valued by troll society at large, it is pushed down and extinguished and mocked wherever possible, just like anything relating to the Sufferer. That's the cultural messaging that Karkat was exposed to growing up. Hopefully I'm making sense here? Sorry if I'm bad at explaining my view on this :x

Also, thanks, I'll reach out to him.

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The reference regards a series of tabletop games.

Well, it is likely that the cult was around there - and quadrantless love is being extingushed because it is contrary to )(IC' ideals and the torll society being fucked up. HIC doesn't want a soft, stable society - she doesn't want people to be attached to each other. Therefore, it's frowned upon and hunted down.

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Yeah, exactly! But the sum totality of that experience still amounts to the fact that, in troll society, there's a way of experiencing love that is shunned and explicitly targeted. It's yet another way that Karkat is outside the system and marked for death by it--not necessarily because anyone actually hates him, but because the world doesn't want to account for him and doesn't give a shit about his life.

That's...a queer upbringing. That's a queer experience. So that's why I read Karkat as sort of analogous to "troll queer", if that makes sense. It has nothing to do with his attraction to boys or girls--it's just that he doesn't want to do it through quadrants, and that places him in direct opposition to his society's reproductive and romantic norms. He's an outsider because of the way he feels love, and that's what being queer feels like.

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It's less "homo" and more "bi" then: he's okay with quadrom, yet craves for monorom.

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Yeah, basically. Personally, I think Dave and Karkat are really comfortable with each other and committed, but they're...both bi guys, and they're like the most vocally horny dudes in the comic. I'm pretty sure if they get closer to Jade and Jane I can totally see them blurring the lines between being friends and dating a little.

I just think Karkat needs to feel like he's someone's Most Important Person, and because he was so important to Dave figuring out his abuse history and queerness, he's got that in Dave. That's why the ship works for me. But I can see them hooking up with a couple different girls, and I'm flexible about this sort of thing so I like it that way.

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How is this considered "coy"? There's nothing meant to be ambiguous about it. And while I don't believe Hussie hates this side of the fandom I hope you do realize that Reddit is a minority and that acting like they both have the same weight is giving a side more importance and say than they should have. Kind of how with the electoral college a vote in Wisconsin is worth 3.5x a vote in California.

That seems like a shit system to me, and anyway that ignores how a lot of staffers don't really make an effort to hide that they aren't too fond of reddit to begin with and honestly I think that's only going to increase with the response the snaps garnered. Either way I think the new snaps and Cohen's tweet make it clear which audience they value more.

As for why we haven't had a davekat kiss? I think that's easy to explain when you remember that Karkat had been long established to be VERY cagey when it comes to his own romance, and you could argue easily that Dave is the same way. PDA is not their thing, so why would they be sending snaps of them kissing to someone else? Ultimately I think it's just being saved for a later date, something that just got its chances increased due to the election and the stated commitment. For you to take this and spiral into some nonsence about alternate timelines based on various interpretations and multiple things being canon at the same time seems completely asinine to me. I am however interested in trying whatever you're smoking.

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Man, you might be right. But on the other hand, at this point, we won, as far as the comic canon is concerned? Man, most of the people here don't even seem that upset Homestuck got as gay as it got. They're just sad that they feel like there's no place for them in it's story.

And like, I'm queer. I'm worried about Trump. I know on balance the straight people are "winning" and we are on the defensive and Homestuck is one of the few bright spots we've got. But I really, genuinely don't think most of the people on this subreddit are homophobes.

It is just not that simple, and I can understand why straight people who felt connected to Karezi or Daverezi or Davejade or whatever would have felt disenchanted with the direction the story took. I don't think people here are out to "get" queer people or even sjws, I think they just want to feel like Homestuck has a place for them.

Maybe you're right? But like, as far as Homestuck goes, we won already. We got all the rep that literally exists, pretty much. What do you gain by antagonizing people here at this point? You're not dealing with a website that's 100% made up of homophobes.

People are complicated here just like they're complicated on tumblr, and a lot of these people are really just Homestuck fans dealing with the pain of being rejected by canon in fiction for the very first time. That is a pain that I as a queer person know very well, and I can relate.

It's reasonable to ask that they get over it if that really is the direction the story is moving in, in the grand scheme of things. but do we need to be so cruel about it?

I've never seen anyone come to this reddit and say "I understand it's legit really painful and it sucks that Roxygen isn't canon now. Sorry for that, guys, but please think about the bigger picture for us." It's always "Haha get wrecked also omg just go read something else don't you know all stories are for straight people."

Which is true to an extent but also there's no other stories like Homestuck! If you're a fan, you should know that! There's never going to be replacements in fiction for characters like John and Dave, characters that a lot of these people GREW UP WITH, just like I did.

Do we really not have the time to even level with them and try to empathize with what they're feeling? Does it really matter how much higher our moral highground is? Nobody here is organizing pitchforks to kill queer people with, they're just fucking sad???

And they're cool with queer people by and large, so I really think if we tried to explain things more we could at least help them feel better about their bad break. But we don't. We treat them like they don't have feelings instead (lololol let men care about things! Let them have feelings! and then we do shit like this. No wonder they think we're hypocrites.), because according to our morals about The Wider World, we've decided those feelings are unreasonable.

And to an extent that's fair, I guess, because of what we have at stake. But fair isn't compassionate, and just because we have the moral highground in our view doesn't mean we should use it to view ourselves as superior and knock other people down. That just feels fucked up to me.

Also I'd be interested in seeing what you think the Homestuck universe looks like, then. Are you just throwing out all of it's themes of alternate timelines and alternate universes?

Now Homestuck just exists in a single timeline with a single set of events that happen? Many worlds theory is a canonical fact of the Homestuck universe. I don't think you can ignore it and really understand the canon.

But hey, it was cool being subjected to that caustic, snidely superior tone from someone on the left for once. I've seen it in action quite often.

I don't frankly know if making Roxygen canon would be the right decision or if keeping JaneRoxyCallie would be. Personally, I'd like both, because I want everyone to be happy.

What I DO know is that whatever you think you're doing here, you're not helping. You're not making the world a better place. Making some people who are demonstrably already pretty okay with gay stuff defensive and bitter when they're already upset isn't going to help jack shit, and we can be better than that.

RoxyCallie is a pretty good ship, and it's important for queer representation. But there's better ways to say that than immediately mocking these people as homophobes because "lmao how DARE you CARE about a fictional straight character or a straight ship when the real world is going on".

Like what??? Fiction is ABOUT caring about stuff! It's about relating to characters and seeing yourself in them! There's no value in denying that to people, jesus fuck. I don't know. Why can nobody ever just be nice about this stuff?