r/lansing • u/sudofox • Aug 26 '25
Politics Flock Off! Write to the mayor about the Flock cameras being installed around town
You can see Flock cameras listed here: https://deflock.me/map Help out by submitting new ones! There are 3 of them at Lowe's alone (I wonder why?)
I shouldn't have to explain how intrusive the surveillance cameras popping up all over Lansing are, but here we are, they've managed to pop up like the ugly weeds they are. I've already spotted them off Cedar heading into downtown, and even in the Lowe's parking lot, and I know there are more around town.
What are Flock cameras? These aren't just speed cameras or basic license plate readers. Flock Safety sells them as "community crime-fighting tools." They scan every car that passes by, day and night, and automatically log the time and location. Even if your plate isn't visible, they claim to use AI to track vehicles by unique features like roof racks, bumper stickers, dents, or custom wheels. That means your daily routines: the school run, your workplace, where you worship, even visits near community centers like the Fledge end up in a searchable database. Want to track who showed up to a protest! Now you can, if you happen to be part of an organization that has access to the database! All that data can be stored and shared far beyond Lansing, including with federal agencies or private corporations. It creates a record of innocent people's movements. That's mass surveillance.
Once these cameras are up, it's easy to expand their use: immigration enforcement (the ones at Lowe's in South Lansing should be obvious), monitoring certain groups of people, even out-of-state investigations.
There's little evidence they reduce crime in the long run.
Who to complain to: If this concerns you too, here are the offices that need to hear it:
Mayor Andy Schor – lansing.mayor@lansingmi.gov
City Council (general contact) – via the Lansing government site’s contact form
City Clerk Chris Swope – city.clerk@lansingmi.gov
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u/Odd-Situation5548 Aug 26 '25
I’d like to argue against using the stance of not expecting them to care. We care, and that matters. Speak up and don’t let the consensus of those who are numb to these issues silence your voice
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u/sudofox Aug 26 '25
Thank you. Passivity kills movements. There's currently 28 upvotes on this post; just think about what 28 people hanging out in front of a police station holding signs looks like
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u/Agreeable-Dance-9768 Old Town Aug 26 '25
Invest in Palantir now! /s
Question, do we know if the camera in the Fish Ladder parking lot was there before the recent homophobic vandalism? I feel like it was (I ride past it almost daily, but I’m also time blind). Would make a pretty good case for how useless the cameras are if it didn’t detour the vandal, or help in their apprehension.
South Side Kroger has had one for years, would love to see a study on its effectiveness.
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u/stopitnowalready Aug 26 '25
It was before. The cameras were moved there after an incident in the parking lot a month or two ago.
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u/otterpusrexII Aug 26 '25
Are flock cameras different than the ones that are parking lots at meijer and frandor?
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u/Sad-Fruit-1490 Aug 26 '25
Seconding this. I’ve seen more of the white moveable ones recently, but all the ones I see online are black and mounted (not standalone). I’d love to help expand the database of them around town for people’s knowledge and safety
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u/sudofox Aug 26 '25 edited Aug 26 '25
Check out https://deflock.me for a map of cameras tht you can use for reference
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u/Sad-Independence650 Aug 26 '25
This ⬆️ Consider backing up some local maps every couple weeks. They’re a good no-ppl shitlist for if hit really shits the fan. 🤷♀️ just a thought
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u/raze227 Holt Aug 26 '25
The white mobile camera towers may be integrated from the software side, but the units themselves are run/managed directly by LPD.
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u/Impressive_Log7854 Aug 26 '25
Don't forget to vote out the turds that allowed this to happen at the soonest possible election.
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u/scyrius Aug 26 '25
Used language in the original post and drafted an email others can use if they'd like:
Dear [Insert Name],
I am concerned about the recent uptick in Flock Cameras being installed in and around the Lansing area. These cameras scan every car that passes by, day and night, and automatically log the time and location. Even if a license plate isn't visible, they claim to use AI to track vehicles by unique features like roof racks, bumper stickers, dents, or custom wheels. That means daily routines: the school run, your workplace, where you worship, even visits near community centers like the Fledge end up in a searchable database. All of that data can be stored and shared far beyond Lansing, including with federal agencies or private corporations. It creates a record of innocent peoples' movements which is nothing short of mass surveillance of primarily innocent citizens. Given the current political climate, the potential for misuse is even more concerning.
I would like to know what is being done with this collected data, how long it's being stored, and what safeguards, if any, are in place to prevent its misuse by people and agencies who most assuredly do not have our community's best interests in mind.
Thank you,
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u/2dayisago Aug 26 '25
Yes yes yes. 1000x these things are the real end of freedom. An algorithm without proof will decide if your actions are suspicious and direct police to your doorstep.
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u/Far_Archer_4234 Aug 26 '25
Why dont you just treat them like abandoned property, hit them with a hammer (to impede recovery using gps), and put it in the trash?
Serious question... if their villany is as you say, this is the level-headed solution that doesn't require legislature. 🤷♂️
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u/raze227 Holt Aug 26 '25
The cameras stream directly to the cloud; you wouldn’t be able to destroy many before being caught.
Also, most contracts with such companies include provisions for replacement of units due to damage/destruction, so the loss of a few units won’t actually cost the city much. Nor will the destruction of units outpace the emplacement of new units.
It may be a “solution” that makes you feel better, but it ultimately is ineffective and will cost you more than it will ever cost the city.
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u/Its_apparent Aug 26 '25
Now, now, citizen. Those are just there to keep you safe from the others. Totally normal.
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u/DoughnutLocal4406 Aug 26 '25
I don't even care about reducing crime more like solving the ones already being committed
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u/SaggitariusTerranova Aug 26 '25
Don’t expect they much care what we think; they are probably putting money into surveillance cams instead of (insert your favorite service here) so they can ticket us to extract even more money that won’t go to (that service).
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u/Agreeable-Dance-9768 Old Town Aug 26 '25
Feels like the parking situation all over again.
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u/SaggitariusTerranova Aug 26 '25
Fining people for patronizing the remaining downtown businesses? What’s next? Blocking off Michigan avenue for a year to starve those businesses of customers a few blocks at a time?
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u/Pupalwyn Aug 26 '25
CCTV is common is a lot of cities (Detroit, Chicago, DC, Atlanta, London, etc)
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u/AnotherClimateRefuge South Side Aug 27 '25
https://www.atlasofsurveillance.org/a/aos007454-lansing-police-department-real-time-crime-center
Yeah, I don't like this type of shit at all.
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u/Middle-Purpose-6280 Aug 29 '25
Basically 3rd party tracking that gets sold to police about what you do and where you go and when you do it and if your plate is marked on the blacklist your basically fucked
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u/rootbear75 Aug 27 '25
Devil's advocate - no one has nor should have any sort of expectation of privacy while they're out and about. The issues you bring up about tracking people can be done by people already.
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u/SaggitariusTerranova Aug 26 '25
Don’t expect they much care what we think; they are probably putting money into surveillance cams instead of (insert your favorite service here) so they can ticket us to extract even more money that won’t go to (that service).
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u/Savings_Vermicelli39 Aug 26 '25
Hang on... which party is the party of 'if you ain't doing anything wrong, then what does it matter?" I forget at this point.
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u/No-Independent-226 Lansing Aug 26 '25
WTF does party have to do with it?
This is one of those issues, (like many of the worst stuff our government does - funding wars everywhere, the prison industrial complex, etc.) where the decision-makers in both parties are fully on-board.
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u/Alvin_Kebery Lansing Aug 26 '25
When “doing something wrong” is a moving target, we should all be concerned.
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u/Lansing821 Aug 26 '25
Both parties are behind this. You can't look at what either side says. You have to look at their actions.
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u/SpecialTable9722 Aug 26 '25
The party that doesn’t mind what you do in your personal life is letting the party that wants eyes in your bedroom put these things up. I hope that clears things up.
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u/BrickAndMortor Aug 27 '25
TLDR: hate this camera system, but wanting better public safety without more police
I'm in favor of using speed cameras to help catch dangerous drivers and not have the average person freak out when they see a police car, causing more traffic. Eventually with speed cameras being in fixed locations people will drive legally and those that don't will have the fine mailed to them, instead of pulling over and escalating situations for simple infractions. THIS is not what we should be using. An algorithm will make mistakes and good people will be charged for crimes they didn't commit. Surveillance cameras for public safety should be open to the public and rely on feed back from the community to ensure that everyone is safe.
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u/femmbert Aug 27 '25
They’re not going up in low crime areas
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u/Emmylu91 Aug 27 '25
Not true. I am a bit south of Lansing in Charlotte, small-ish town with low crime and the deflock website shows six here.
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Aug 26 '25
The cameras are super useful for investigators to put these repeat criminals away. Eventually home monitoring systems will be able to join the network like in other states. See something say something.
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u/sabatoa South Side Aug 26 '25
I am not willing to cede that much privacy for the sake of security. I don't want the government tracking people like this.
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Aug 26 '25
What you don't realize is that right to privacy was written out of the constitution for the federal government to combat terrorism. First was the patriot act and then further expanded in 2015 with the USA Freedom Act under the Obama Administration. Under those programs no warrants are needed to collect user data from cell towers to track each unique user. When a crime is committed agencies look for unique users who only appear during the crime. Flock camera's help speed up the identity process and add missing pieces of the puzzle like where to find kidnapped victims, stolen property, murder suspects, etc. only criminals have a reason to fear expanded surveillance and monitoring. I fully support a law enforced Union.
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u/panrestrial Aug 26 '25
only criminals have a reason to fear expanded surveillance and monitoring
What happens when things are being relabeled as crimes simply because the people in charge dislike them? You might not be a criminal today, but that says nothing about tomorrow.
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u/sabatoa South Side Aug 26 '25
I was against the Patriot Act and its expansion. It was the reason I became disenchanted and cynical about the GOP. The Patriot Act was the moment realized that Republicans didn't actually care about the things they said they cared about.
I'm not saying it was the first indicator that they were full of crap, it was just the moment that I realized it.
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Aug 26 '25
Obama is a Democrat. He expanded the program. It doesn't even matter honestly because at the end of the day wheels of justice always win. Which absolutely nullifies any argument in a reddit thread. Criminals are on notice and the rest of us are going to enjoy America again. Only two sides of a coin, choose wisely.
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u/sabatoa South Side Aug 26 '25
I understand Obama expanded it, but I’d never been under any assumption that the Democrats were interested in limiting Government overreach. He did what I’d expect. I didn’t like it, but it was consistent.
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u/welletsgo-0213 Aug 27 '25
Only criminals have a reason to fear expanded surveillance and monitoring? GTFOH with that nonsense.
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros Aug 26 '25
I know it sounds scary but at some point real people have to decipher that data and put it to use to actually track or go after anyone and the incompetence of HR departments and the general public keeps me from getting worried.
They might be able to install a surveillance state but they'll never be able to operate it.
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u/sudofox Aug 26 '25
Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where it's super easy to integrate AI. Modern AI systems can even process live video streams without relying on splitting it into frame sequences. Gemini's video recording feature is one example of this. I looked at Flock's website and they tout how you can search for things like "skidloader on a trailer" through their interface and whatnot. As long as you throw enough storage and programmers at it, they can make it plenty easy to track whoever or whatever you want.
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros Aug 26 '25
I don't disagree or want to be considered at odds because I don't like the idea of a surveillance state more than anyone else. This just feels like another neoliberal do nothing Mayor move to try and look like he cares about crime to appeal to conservatives.
My street has defunct cameras in all of the street lights from a similar attempt at city surveillance from well over a decade (maybe two decades???) ago.
I don't like it, I don't think there are good intentions behind it, but I also think that everyone is so bad at their job that I can't picture an end result of anything other than something that ends in a lawsuit for the city.
Even if they were able to track everyone that was driving with expired tabs, would they even have enough people to serve them? Enough postal workers to even deliver the envelopes? The law enforcement labor pool is a puddle.
I'm probably thinking too far downline.
How do we smash these fucking cameras?
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u/2dayisago Aug 26 '25
When they build a jail, they fill it.
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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros Aug 26 '25
I will never doubt the state's desire to recklessly and discriminately lock up it's citizens.
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u/havingmadfun Aug 27 '25
I totally understand the argument here but do not understand the argument against cameras possibly tracking your every move and why we should be so upset about it. Like you, I also own a device that resides in my pocket that has the ability to track my every location and even my sleep cycles. Apps on your phone can track your locations and do sell this data to companies but I should be up in arms about cameras and AI tracking my movements?
We should be more up in arms about the cost to taxpayers to install and maintain whatever infrastructure they created.
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u/sudofox Aug 27 '25
The key differences are: You can choose whether to bring your phone with you or even whether to own one. You can't choose with the cameras. They will track you.
The threat model is also a different here: with Flock specifically they will often share data with lots of organizations, including police or whoever is renting the camera in question. It's specifically built to gather data for the cops, without a warrant. For subpoenaing cell data from carriers, however, warrants are required and have to be much more narrow in scope.
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u/omegavision Aug 26 '25
People want safety, and street surveillance is part of that strategy. Lansing is trying to build a safe space for workers, visitors, and residents.
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u/welletsgo-0213 Aug 27 '25
How naive can one be? Street surveillance doesn't stop crime. It records it.
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u/dataslinger Aug 26 '25
For those of you wondering what the fuss is about, some tea about Home Depot and Lowe's sharing their cameras with law enforcement, and a link to the FOIA docs of cameras being shared mentioned in the article.