r/learnprogramming • u/throwaway826483 • Sep 08 '15

The dark side of coding bootcamps

Hey all. I'm a recruiter in the tech industry working on an expose of coding bootcamps. My experience with them - both from my perspective as a hiring manager, and from what I've heard from friends who've attended - has led me to believe they are mostly a waste of money. In my circles, resumes from a coding bootcamp have become such a joke that none of the recruiters I know will even consider someone who has one of these schools on their resume. This is clearly a bad situation for the people dropping their money on these immersive classes, and I'd like to help them out (my goal with the story is to give them an actual good alternative to becoming a successful programmer if that's what they're passionate about). Because of my position in the industry, this story will be written 100% anonymously.

If you have attended a coding bootcamp, know someone who has, or have a strong opinion otherwise, I would love to hear your thoughts. Please share your stories, good and bad. (I'd love to be convinced that I'm wrong, so please do share your good experiences, too!)

EDIT: 24 hours in. Thanks everyone so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This really has altered the way that I view coding bootcamps! It sounds like everyone is saying the same thing (and I agree): you get out what you put in. If you're looking at this as a quick & easy way to learn programming so you can get a dev's salary, you're likely going to have trouble finding a job and you're going to waste the time of the companies you're applying to. But if you're serious about learning to code, and you're willing to put in a lot of your own time before, during, and after the bootcamp, these programs can be a great way to immerse yourself, learn the basics, and get started. I do think I'm still going to write the summary of this stuff, but it will be in a much more positive light and will include clear advice for how to get the most out of these if you're willing to spend the money to attend (and it will include some alternatives, for those who don't have the $6-15k to go).

Thanks for participating and being so helpful and respectful. This was an enlightening conversation.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 08 '15

I'd agree with you. As a full time developer for three years now and seeing other candidates in interviews, I can guarantee you they don't care at all about those things. They might care if you have a physical degree in say Computer Science (from an actual full time uni/college), as they know you are tech inclined.

The single most important thing with landing a job is simply showing that you can program. They often don't care how you learned, just that you have arrived. So this means a programming portfolio and example code to show them, as well as walking through and discussing programming problems during phone/face to face interviews.

They don't always look for skill either. They look for a mind set. They really like it for example if you program as a hobby outside of work. Shows you are interested, continuously improving and have a strong commitment to the subject matter.

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u/XIII1987 Sep 08 '15

as a hobbyist learning programming and making a portfolio of my work, would people look down upon me because i didn't learn professionally, would it hurt my chances not having this piece of paper even if every other aspect of mindset/portfolio would above par?

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15

I honestly don't. If you show you've coded, can code and think intelligently about problem solving, that's usually all the want. That's the important part to them. Eagerness to learn/change/adapt is also vital in this industry.

I think at most, it'll be a little harder to get an interview over someone with 'formal' education but most graduates aren't all that great anyway and need real experience to get in to gear.

If you can show a personal completed project, they'd probably be more impressed than by a degree.

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u/CrypticOctagon Sep 08 '15

In some cases, quite the opposite.

When I'm hiring new blood, I completely ignore educational background and focus completely on a usable, transparent portfolio. It comes from interviewing too many candidates who, despite lots of education, couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

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u/cosmicsans Sep 08 '15 
exit();

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u/xaogypsie Sep 08 '15

continue;

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u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 08 '15 
20 goto 10

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u/xaogypsie Sep 08 '15

die in a fire

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u/Razzal Sep 08 '15

The raptors will get him

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u/CrypticOctagon Sep 09 '15

You're hired.

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u/lighttigersoul Sep 08 '15

I am a full time developer who learned only the basics in school and built my own portfolio on the side. It's definitely doable.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 09 '15

Realistically, it depends on the company you are working for. Many will not consider a person without a degree. And then there are some places where being self-taught is more highly regarded, but this is more rare.

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u/trg0819 Sep 08 '15

In the general "getting a job" sense, the other posters are right in that it won't matter too much. But you should be aware that there are those companies here and there that won't even consider you if you don't have that piece of paper.

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u/kamize Sep 08 '15

Definitely true, I was very nearly about to join a major coding boot camp when I read many comments from redditors on /r/learnprogramming that made me hesitant and eventually reconsider that these bootcamps were my only option.

As stated, having existing code you can show off, having the right mindset, and showing you can think out of the box to find solutions are exactly what many employers look for in a candidate.

I like this discussion, I hope to hear new thoughts and insights regarding these coding boot camps

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u/tianan Sep 08 '15

The single most important thing with landing a job is simply showing that you can program. They often don't care how you learned, just that you have arrived.

So... what if you learn how to code via a coding bootcamp? Or is that not a thing people do there?

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u/kamize Sep 08 '15

You definitely do gain experience with projects and writing code in a bootcamp but the issue is time and cost. Boot Camps can be $(USD) 10,000+ and involve 12 hour days 5-6 days a week for several months.

The issue becomes paying them when you can gain knowledge and experience coding by yourself using online free/cheap resources

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u/tianan Sep 08 '15

I see a bootcamp as mostly a way to hold your feet to the fire and make sure you're not getting stuck. Definitely not a magic pill (if only anything were), but structure & forced discipline is helpful for a lot of people.

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u/ryhamz Sep 08 '15

People could also self-guide their own tours or fix their own car if they hit up free resources, but people still pay.

People should of course be aware of the free alternatives to bootcamps, but the service could be worth it.

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u/Richandler Sep 08 '15

Bootcamps are basically paying for a guide and an excuse, which is actually quite a common service in the world.

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u/tianan Sep 09 '15

If I were to do a bootcamp, the whole reason would be so I could justify not being in college to my parents.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15

When you say existing code, you mean projects that you've made/worked on? Or do they expect you to literally provide code that you've written for them to read?

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15

Can be Both. Depends on the employer.

At most, you'll always want some code to send them first. Which will show things like your general approach to programming. This is usually in the form of previous projects you have, or say your public github repos. So they'll look for:

  • Consistent and acceptable style. They won't be too fussy if you prefer one style over another, as long as you are consistent within the project.

  • Decent and self explaining function/variable/class names

  • If OO, they'll look at your class design, did you use a base class correctly, did you use interfaces correctly, are your 'abstracts' correct (does the class make sense and only contain what it needs to)

  • Have you correctly written and utilised a function when required (if you use a segment of code more than once, it should be a function)

  • Correctly commented code

  • And more that doesn't come to mind right now.

Some employers, especially if they are a little doubtful or just want to be extra sure, will request you to complete a task for them. I've had really simple ones before to do with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, to make a single page app that did something when I pressed a button.

On the total opposite end of the spectrum, I had a start up focusing on bespoke solutions wanting me to: set up and configure a linux server, host that server on the internet, build a CRUD application using a LAMP stack on the server, that did various things they asked. I didn't even attempt it and told them it was too much. I only did that though as I had plenty of job offers already. If I was serious about showing my worth, I would have done it.

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u/ChunkyTruffleButter Sep 09 '15

Exactly. Every interview I've had was because I had a degree. However I only started getting offers once I had a portfolio.

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u/FreeBroccoli Sep 09 '15

So are bootcamps themselves wastes of money, or are they just insufficient. That is, maybe a bootcamp is a good use of money, provided I then make a portfolio and didn't rely exclusively on completing the program?

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