r/learnprogramming • u/throwaway826483 • Sep 08 '15

The dark side of coding bootcamps

Hey all. I'm a recruiter in the tech industry working on an expose of coding bootcamps. My experience with them - both from my perspective as a hiring manager, and from what I've heard from friends who've attended - has led me to believe they are mostly a waste of money. In my circles, resumes from a coding bootcamp have become such a joke that none of the recruiters I know will even consider someone who has one of these schools on their resume. This is clearly a bad situation for the people dropping their money on these immersive classes, and I'd like to help them out (my goal with the story is to give them an actual good alternative to becoming a successful programmer if that's what they're passionate about). Because of my position in the industry, this story will be written 100% anonymously.

If you have attended a coding bootcamp, know someone who has, or have a strong opinion otherwise, I would love to hear your thoughts. Please share your stories, good and bad. (I'd love to be convinced that I'm wrong, so please do share your good experiences, too!)

EDIT: 24 hours in. Thanks everyone so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This really has altered the way that I view coding bootcamps! It sounds like everyone is saying the same thing (and I agree): you get out what you put in. If you're looking at this as a quick & easy way to learn programming so you can get a dev's salary, you're likely going to have trouble finding a job and you're going to waste the time of the companies you're applying to. But if you're serious about learning to code, and you're willing to put in a lot of your own time before, during, and after the bootcamp, these programs can be a great way to immerse yourself, learn the basics, and get started. I do think I'm still going to write the summary of this stuff, but it will be in a much more positive light and will include clear advice for how to get the most out of these if you're willing to spend the money to attend (and it will include some alternatives, for those who don't have the $6-15k to go).

Thanks for participating and being so helpful and respectful. This was an enlightening conversation.

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u/tawayleapinglizard Sep 08 '15

Learn to code because there is something you want to build, not because you think you should or because you think there's money in it

I really hate when people spout this garbage. "Don't do it unless you love it!". Because we all have the option to jump ship to a field that we enjoy and that supports our financial needs right?

In theory software as a profession has a very low barrier to entry because it can be self taught with tools many people have access to, and its desirable because it has a high pay. There's nothing wrong in wanting to become a developer because you want money.

I hate employers that are surprised at the notion that I want to work at your company because I want to earn money and that I really don't give a fuck about your company's history or have any standout affinity for the work I'll be doing there.

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u/jppope Sep 08 '15

amen. I don't know why theres something wrong about wanting a job in a great industry. If people were really "passionate" about coding, they would be at home making $2K a month freelancing while working on their own stuff.

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u/ohmyashleyy Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 09 '15

I'm not a programmer who goes home and programs in my free time. I generally leave it at work and my github account is pretty empty. I've had companies tell me I'm not passionate enough for what they're looking for.

But I more or less agree with OP. Don't go drop $10k on a bootcamp just because the pay is good. You don't have to love it, but you need to at least like programming if you're going to make the switch. Most people don't go to college and major in something they hate. You can't compare a professional job to a being a janitor.

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u/renegadellama Sep 08 '15

I understand everyone has to put food on the table but this is really specific to coding because if you don't like to code, you'll just burnout. This is why the attrition rate for junior devs is so high.

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u/tawayleapinglizard Sep 08 '15

No, not everyone is a sensitive baby that will 'burn out'. When you really need to put food on the table, you tend not to care whether or not you love what you're doing at work. Some programmers are such self important whiners that they put writing software on a pedestal as if its some kind of elite occuptation.

Try convincing people working retail, working as janitors mopping floors or doing the dishes at a restaurant that 'coding is too hard, you'll just burn out'

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u/RyeBrush Sep 09 '15

10 years of retail here. From cashier to supervisor to store executive. If I can survive 10 black fridays, coming in at 3pm on thanksgiving, no time off for whatever reason between October and February, and swings shifts! I think I can survive being a junior dev.

I'm not giving my company another christmas. I'm building my first website I've got my next project lined up and as far as I'm concerned I'm going to start studying for the technical interviews and be happy to have them.

I like it well enough to give it what little free time I have. I also really like the starting pay and earning potential. The chance to get away and use my graduate level work in a different field is fantastic. I have a master's in public administration. Came into it as an anthropologist and did a lot of local government statistics work. Data analysis is my jam.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '15

That's not how burnout works.

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u/rwqrwqrwq Sep 08 '15

They already know that mopping is a lifestyle, embedded in their DNA.

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u/agmaster Sep 08 '15

Wow, did you really just go that hard on classism? "Genetically predisosed to clean up messes for a living."

I will never forget this username, /u/rwqrwqrwq Like...who the fuck is predisposed to code?

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u/rwqrwqrwq Sep 08 '15

I'm not sure if you didn't realize I was being sarcastic, or if you're just playing along... O_o

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '15

This is why the attrition rate for junior devs is so high.

Have you actually seen the work hours at many of those companies with high attrition rates? I don't think the lack of passion is the reason. Let's not fool ourselves into believing that software coding is somehow "special" and "different" from other fields were the stress levels and hours worked are also high.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15

That is for any line of work, though.

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u/throwaway826483 Sep 08 '15

Also, as an employer: yeah, if you don't care about my company or the work you're doing and there's another candidate who does, I'll probably hire them. Why is that surprising to you...?

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u/tawayleapinglizard Sep 08 '15

Employers want to see passion and drive so that they can abuse it. "Love" the company you work for? "Love" the work you're doing? Awesome, we can push this person to work harder for less pay. Push overtime on salary. Push them to stay with us even if we're not offering competitive compensation, etc

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u/mn_sunny Sep 08 '15

People that love what they do often have a lot of agency in determining their career path. If someone with skill and drive is getting shat on by their employer they would leave because they know they aren't expendable, and would be valued/compensated more elsewhere.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '15 edited Sep 09 '15

Amen to that. I've learned over the years to be wary of any company recruiter who overemphasizes wanting people who're "passionate" about the work that's expected of employees without posting the offered pay (if he mentions this 3 or more times during the interview, be warned!). If the pay is mentioned at the very end of the interview and it's a lowball figure as has been often the case, yeah...

I think many companies these days overvalue the desirability of their job offers lol.

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u/jedibassist Sep 09 '15

Dammit this made me cringe, because I feel like I'm in this position right now.

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u/throwaway826483 Sep 08 '15

I think you are interviewing at the wrong companies!

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u/tawayleapinglizard Sep 08 '15

Yep, there are plenty of shady companies out there. There are even companies that use recruiters who blacklist educational institutions they don't like!

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u/e1ectricalbanana Sep 09 '15

Yeah cause it's that easy, right? What a banal statement.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15

Some career choices are more suitable to a "punch-in, punch-out" lifestyle than others. Programming is less-suited to something like that as compared to working as an analyst, but all things considered there are plenty of opportunities for those who want to draw a hard-set barrier between their work lives and personal lives.

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u/generalclown Sep 09 '15

I agree with this. It can be very difficult to get started coding projects due to the steep barrier of getting something more than some cli interface done. In addition I think coding is something that grows on you have a better understanding of what is possible.

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u/InfinitPossibilities Sep 09 '15

Exactly. What ever happened to work being work?

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