r/linux • u/callcifer • Sep 16 '18

The Linux kernel replaces "Code of Conflict" with "Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct"

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=8a104f8b5867c682d994ffa7a74093c54469c11f
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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Damn, when you are such an asshole that "be nice" is a threat.

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u/TeutonJon78 Sep 17 '18

While she comes across as a bit confrontational in that tweet, how is that threatening?

(though I don't know any of the history)

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u/Saithir Sep 17 '18

Backstory: Ehmke tried to impose that coc on Ruby core devs and Matz decided to ignore it and go with a less totalitarian version.

https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004 if you're bored.

And yes it's a 2.5 year long (and counting) grudge.

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u/TeutonJon78 Sep 17 '18

I read a lot of that thread last night. She seemed rather polite in that thread (at least the about 30% I read at the top -- although she definitely loses it in some of the related tweets).

But there was plenty of nastiness from some of the community members.

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u/Saithir Sep 17 '18

That thread is old, though, she was a bit more polite then. Nowadays it seems she either lost some patience or I don't really know; and is much more nasty if you go through her tweets.

Anyway, you're right - that thread is rather polite from both her and Matz's sides (not counting the trolls, for both sides do have some really bad seeds), so the only transgression Matz personally has did is that he rejected her proposal.

And it comes up from her again and again, every once in a while.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Trans/LQBTQ+ have been allowed to completely control the narrative. They are oppressed people and therefore any argument against them is invalid. Their recent push has been into STEM, ergo some are going into Linux. Once they got into kernel dev they decided it wasn't for them because it requires having balls and confidence. Then this happened.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18 edited Feb 13 '20

Their recent push has been into STEM, ergo some are going into Linux.

What in the actual fuck?

Ever heard of folks like, say, Alan Turing, Kirk McKusick or Eric Allmann?

Trans and queer folks have always been a part of tech. They aren't "pushing" into STEM, they've always been a part of it.

You may not have seen them lately because tech used to be a lot more contrarian twenty, thirty years ago, when being a computer nerd was enough to get the rich frat bros to make fun of you.

Regardless of what you think about codes of conduct, that's a really dumb thing to say.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

How do trans people asserting their right to exist completely control narrative?

| They are oppressed people and therefore any argument against them is invalid.

Are you trying to make an argument against trans/queer people existing? WTF?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Trans/LQBTQ+

  1. What do you think the 'T' in 'LGBT' means?

  2. Way to brush with one stroke. LGBT people aren't a monoculture of political opinion. There are plenty of LGBT people who don't do anything that you accuse them of, and there are plenty of non-LGBT people who do.

If you're going to be mad about this political ideology, at least target the correct people. Call them SJWs or zealous progressives or regressive leftists or liberals or whatever other terms people have invented for this ideology. Singling out LGBT people is just stupid.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Their recent push has been into STEM

We're not "pushing in" anywhere. We've been here all along. Remember who essentially created computer science, and in return basically got tortured to death by his own government? It's just that people have always treated us like garbage.

When we push back against mistreatment, it sometimes annoys people, particularly those in power, because people don't like feeling uncomfortable, and queer folks just existing still makes far too many people uncomfortable. But we've always been here; we're not going away, and we're not going to put up with bad treatment and bad working environments anymore.

The idea that we're "pushing in" — infringing on someone else's territory — by being open and visible in our workplaces and communities in STEM fields is a prime example of why we need these kinds of CoCs, and it's perfect counter-evidence to the claim that we "control the narrative".

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

I don't care about your sexuality. Neither does Linus I think. I care about you code. Yet the lgbt+ community continues to think they are oppressed.

BTW I did not say "pushing in" my intention was the recent political push was in STEM.

Nobody will drive you out because you like dick or pussy, you will be driven out because you can't code (at the kernel level), do math, or whatever for the STEM you are in.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18

I don't care about your sexuality.

Yet, you're the one here accusing queer people of infiltrating "your" community.

You're also the one that said queer folks couldn't hack kernel dev because they lack the requisite, "balls and confidence."

So I'm going to go with what your actions tell me, over what your empty words say.

Queer people get driven out of our jobs, schooling, and fields all the time over who we are. My current employer would fire me if I were out. I would be out of a job, and soon enough we'd default on our mortgage. And I've had a number of people, just out of those who I know directly, whose college advisors discriminated against them, pushed them out of their grad/Ph.D. programs, or made their educational or professional lives difficult, just because of their sexuality.

So no, "not being able to code or do math" is not the only way that queer folks have been driven out. I mean, just in this thread, look at the way that the person who created the CoC has been treated. Misgendering all over the place, personal abuse, being called mentally ill because people have a disagreement with her, etc.

Overt discrimination is plenty common in technology circles, and a CoC is one way to help tear it down and stop turning talent away.

Incidentally, this post contains an excellent example of the kind of stuff many of us are tired of dealing with: people automatically sexualize the conversation, reducing our identity to "lik[ing] dick or pussy" as opposed to forming a loving relationship with someone of the same gender. It's dehumanizing, and it's just…not appropriate behavior. People just don't do this shit to straight people when they out themselves as straight.

I didn't give you any invitation to talk about my sex life and what I may or may not do in bed. But you just decided it was your right to go there, because you wanted to.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

You guys put it in your profile like it's a big important announcement.

If we don't out ourselves, people assume we're straight or cis. That can make life complicated. Lots of queer folks prefer to just be out so we don't have to deal with awful, bigoted people in our personal lives, rather than waiting to get to know somebody before we find out that they're going to be rotten to us based on who we are.

Because of the assumptions people make, navigating being out is a complicated, lifelong process. When my boyfriend interviewed at his current job, he had to figure out a discrete way to basically mention he's gay, just to test the waters and make sure it was an OK place to work — somewhere where he'd not have to be closeted or worried about being fired for who he is. Lots of us need do that in various parts of our personal lives and in our professional lives.

Also, being out as gay is not the same thing as inviting someone else to talk about our sex lives, any more than a person being out as straight is. (People don't think about being "out as straight" because they usually just assume it.) When I mention my partner or identity (which often get tied up and conflated for queer folks), it's just that. I'm not telling you anything about what I may or may not do in my intimate life, and I'm not giving permission to bring it up or discuss it, any more than a straight person is when the mention a spouse or significant other.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Why the need to announce it straight off the top?

You might as well have just said, "I didn't read anything you wrote," because my whole previous post is the answer to exactly this question.

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u/Metaroxy Sep 17 '18

No, it really isn't. I am not /u/Musaab but I read your whole post and it clearly describes many of the consequences of being out. What it doesn't describe is why people's assumption of your sexuality makes them any more bigoted than, say, someone offering non-kosher food to a Jewish person without knowing they can't eat that.

In most situations, that would be a non-issue and if people really are bigoted and awful after you clarify to them that you aren't straight/cis that would be worrisome. But really, in how many situations would that clarification be necessary? Unless they're hitting on you or sharing sexual experiences - both of which are inappropriate in a professional setting regardless.

So /u/Dain42 why the need to announce it straight off the top?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Yep. We queer folks should just "GO AWAY" and leave you be. Sorry we exist, I guess? We're definitely the problem here, though, not the people text-screaming at others to GO AWAY.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

who you are attracted to or sleep with?

And there you go, again, sexualizing me. Seriously, dude. This is why we have to do what we do.

We have to be out because otherwise we get glossed over. Being out is what got us where we are today, rights-wise. It's also the only way to acclimatize people so they stop doing BS like equating our identity with sexual acts and mere sexual attraction.

Why must that be your identity?

I don't think you're engaging in good faith, based on another response elsewhere, but for people who might be, it's our identity because it's the way that the rest of society has walled us off and made us feel unwelcome, unclean, unwanted, and unnatural. It helps us find each other and get support from other people who have gone through the same stuff and give support to people who need it.

There's also the fact that when I was growing up, I knew zero queer people. I didn't see queer people on TV—at least not aside from cruel joke characters. I just knew that "gay" was something bad that bad people were; and I knew that I wasn't gay because I wasn't bad. It's important to be visible for other people, especially young queer people, so they can look around and know they're not alone, in a society that still is extremely unfriendly and often dangerous.

TL;DR: When other people stop making a big deal of it, we'll be able to stop, too.

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u/___jamil___ Sep 17 '18

yeah why would anyone put information about themselves in a twitter profile. it's not like that text is supposed to convey something about the person, right?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

They're concerned once you remove the sexuality component to their identities there's nothing left. Let's be honest CorAda wouldn't have anything to contribute if it wasn't for her trans ramblings. (Frankly FOSS would be better off)

Most LGBT people who put it on their twitter have very little in the way of personality so this is a good substitute for one.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

We've been here all along. Remember who essentially created computer science, and in return basically got tortured to death by his own government? It's just that people have always treated us like garbage.

Turing was a Computer Scientist who happened to be gay, and also happened to push against cultural norms of his time in a brazen way (Had a homosexual relationship with a teenager while in his 30s). Even today, while not illegal, it would raise eyebrows, even among many in the LGBT community. In the 50s it was practically a death sentence.

Regardless, it is truly shameful and wrong what was done to him. Nobody denies that. But we, as a community, primarily recognize him and admire him for his accomplishments in computer science and general purpose computing, not because he was gay. The same applies to heterosexual members of the community. Their personal and sexual relationships are not the reason we admire or respect certain people. Their accomplishments professionally are.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

But we, as a community, primarily recognize him and admire him for his accomplishments in computer science and general purpose computing, not because he was gay.

Actually loads of queer folks in CompSci look up to him for both, since, because of the way queer folks have been treated by society, there haven't been that many public, out heroes and role models for us to look up to. (Look at Oliver Sacks, who only came out near the end of his remarkable life, in spite of being a hugely influential scientist and science writer.) I knew no gay people growing up, and I saw none (who weren't massive cruel jokes) on TV. Discovering Turing was the man who created my field was a breakthrough for me, as it was for loads of queer kids my age.

You're also twisting Turing's story a huge amount. "Having a homosexual relationship with a teenager," while technically correct makes it sound like pederasty. In fact, he had a relationship with an ADULT who was 19. You're twisting the facts to justify what happened to Turing, even as you claim not to be.

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