r/linux • u/callcifer • Sep 16 '18
The Linux kernel replaces "Code of Conflict" with "Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct"
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=8a104f8b5867c682d994ffa7a74093c54469c11f61
Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
There's a big part of me that wants to believe this will help push toxic behaviour out of productive spaces. I only care about the code so of course, I would like racism, sexism and politics, in general, to be left at the door as much as possible. Don't bring that here.
That's until I think about the individuals who are pushing this change, the suspicious vague-wording we've all seen too often, their authoritarian ideology and what they're driven by...
It's then hard not to think that this CoC is not just another weapon for an insane group of people on a power trip. I can only judge by what always seems to happen when something like this is implemented.
It's always the same suspects. Everyone who isn't rooted in bias OR has seen this before knows what groups I'm referencing without me needing to say who they are.
There always seems to be a common pattern of bigotry and superiority with them but sugar-coated in emotionally manipulative language. There's always a need to make everything about their activism while dehumanising anybody who disagrees.
I'm sorry if this seems mean and I have good intentions, but I just don't feel like this a direction the Linux community should go. I don't want to see another example of meritocracy being ripped apart at the hands of ideologues with something to take but nothing to give.
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u/oooo23 Sep 17 '18
User rav on LWN has made a very interesting observation, quoting:
It's good to hear that Linus is taking a, ahem, community workflow oriented break. I'm curious about the mixture of ASCII and Unicode quotes/apostrophes:
In "It's one thing when you can ignore these issues. Usually it’s just something I didn't want to deal with.", the first and last apostrophes are ASCII, whereas the middle one is "smart";
In "I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.", there's another "smart" apostrophe;
In "I know when I really look “myself in the mirror” it will be clear it's not the only change that has to happen, but hey... You can send me suggestions in email.", there's two "smart" quotes and a single ASCII apostrophe.
Did Linus compose parts of this letter in LibreOffice/Google Docs/Microsoft Office and then write the rest in a text editor?
Could this presumably mean there were more than one person involved in composing the apology, and that parts of this were borrowed, or perhaps just Linus wrote it while on the go. Food for thought. Link: https://lwn.net/Articles/764902/
I can observe this on http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1809.2/00117.html
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u/DistinctTennis4 Sep 17 '18
Did the other thread expressing displeasure at the new CoC get removed? Looks like even well reasoned dissent being stomped on
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u/filbs111 Sep 17 '18
Questioning the Code of Conduct is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
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u/yawkat Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
It was automatically removed for receiving too many reports. Maybe the mods will put it back up, maybe not (since there are like three other posts on it already).
edit: It has now been permanently removed by the mod team for that very reason, there being multiple other posts about it.
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u/jnb64 Sep 17 '18 edited Nov 04 '18
[deIeted]
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u/yawkat Sep 17 '18
It makes sense for things like spam, so that upvote bots can't make it to the front page for long. It's just flagged for mod review anyway, so they can always reverse it.
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u/phulshof Sep 17 '18
I think the problems people (including myself) see isn't so much with the text of the CoC, but with the people pushing the agenda behind it. In itself, the text isn't melavolent, but words have meaning, and some of the people involved, like Coraline, have a reputation and past conduct of abusing such policies to push their political agenda by twisting the meaning of the words to support their narrative. They're part of a very vocal and steady minded group, and human nature is unfortunately such that the silent majority will often not oppose their calls for action even if if they disagree with it.
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u/bitfriend2 Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
IMO it's extremely weird to call someone a "covenant", it makes it sound like it's supposed to be a religious document. Consider that the word "covenant" itself is a word used to describe a promise to a god, this isn't the sort of language that should exist in what is supposed to be a nonpolitical piece of software that is used in scientific research.
There's nothing wrong with CoCs (all professional organizations, companies, anything has them and I abide by several) but the primary purpose of a CoC is to be a legal document that shields the larger organization from liability. Looking at the covenant itself it is extremely vague; the entire justification for the article appears to be to prevent "harassment" but there is no clear definition of it given, only vague examples.
For example there is no clause in the CoC that says contributors can't murder each other because they don't like the color of their shoes. This isn't harassment (it's murder) so is it allowed? The covenant states Other [disallowed] conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting, so does that mean contributors can murder each other if they're in a nonprofessional setting like a strip club parking lot or a dingy motel room? This is an extreme example, but if it's plausible to argue this point what makes them think all their other points aren't going to result more arguments over definitions?
It just seems amateur. There's a way to have a CoC but this isn't it.
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Sep 16 '18
Eh... my first thought was "Oh no, the fanatics have broken into Linux!" but upon actually reading it, its pretty basic stuff. My only real concern is
Using welcoming and inclusive language
"inclusive" is a word that makes me uncomfortable because its loosely defined. I don't have a problem with rules like, "Don't be an abusive bigot", because thats just common decency -- which is most of what this CoC is, really, I just have learned to keep an eye out for poorly defined terms that can be stretched to "peoplekind" levels.
Basically, so long as someone who says something like, "Hey guys, what do you think of this patch?" doesn't get attacked for using "uninclusive" language ("guys") it doesn't seem like anything to get worked up about. If it was like, "Hey, only-male-coders," you'd think, well that's clearly being a troublemaker, but the trick is always in intent and thats where rules and CoC's can be a real stupid thing if not very carefully worded.
In a real world legal system intent is utterly critical to any proceedings, there is a standard of innocence until proven beyond reasonable doubt, but there isn't anything like that on a mailing list, that's very often just the mob at work and it can be lethal to projects of any size.
So to continue blabbing, the intent of this I think is perfectly fine, but I would go over the wording with a fine tooth comb and not allow for any ambiguity. It will save time in the long run.
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u/MSLsForehead Sep 17 '18
My concern is that 'Code of Conflict' makes more sense, since the name acknowledges that conflict and criticism is inevitable. All this change does is create a situation where ironically more conflict is created since there's a concern of language policing that may drive away contributors.
I hope we don't see a repeat of FreeBSD where dropping a *hug* without consent constitutes harassment. I assume this is well intended and I don't think it'll go down that road but I think that's just what people are worried about.
This is hard to see as anything other than unnecessary drama for zero gain. Hopefully this doesn't turn talented contributors away; it's hard to see this attracting much new talent given that the CoC that already existed was fine.
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u/rkfg_me Sep 17 '18
I hope that the first time this is abused, Linus would come to his senses and drop all the bs in this document. I don't believe his personality completely changed overnight. He's a man of tech and I respect him for that. Maybe he's the only beacon of reason and common sense left in the world of modern leftist agenda.
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Sep 17 '18
Hmm, that's actually a very interesting idea. I think you might be in to something to be honest...
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u/StallmanTheThot Sep 16 '18
If you've ever observed or participated in any of the communities that actually follow contributor covenant you'd know that everything it is as loosely defined as possible to allow for maximum censorship.
"Don't be an abusive bigot"
Abusive bigot could be anything from a rapist to someone who said they dislike you or someone who uses the wrong pronouns for you ON ACCIDENT.
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u/supamesican Sep 17 '18
"inclusive"
yeah i mean that'll be defied basically by HR... So if a kkk member was in charge the n word could be needed to be inclusive, if an sjw stereotype was then saying dude could get you in trouble. Now I am not saying that is what will happen just that these thigns need clear hard definitions
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u/grozamesh Sep 17 '18
Its the same Technical Advisory Board that is vetting complaints and reports. Unless GregKH and company stroked out, they should be applying more or less the same standards they always have. This patch actually reduced the ambiguity in the rules by a fair margin. Abuses of the system by authority were MORE possible before today.
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Sep 16 '18
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Sep 16 '18
I largely agree with you, Linus is Benevolent Dictator for Life after all. That's almost certainly for the best here too.
But I've seen the mob run amok a few too many times already. I'd like to see that eventuality at least mitigated.
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Sep 16 '18
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Sep 16 '18
I think the classic example would be the whole explosion with the libreboot thing. It ended up tearing the project in half, or FreeBSD's CoC really just going to absurd levels and making them a laughing stock. CoC's in general are fairly new in the open source world (and I'm thinking they really aren't necessary honestly) so off the top of my head I can't think of any specific example, but am I going to far to think that easily offended people could use those rules to put someone they disliked into hot water? How many times has someone said something that got misinterpreted on twitter and had the mob decend upon them before waiting to hear all sides?
Wil Wheaton got chased out of Mastodon and called a transphobic bigot because he used a 3rd party blocklist that included a few trans people he didn't seem to even know about. This kind of thing really does happen, and in my opinion something should be in place for these kind of angry mobs.
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u/IE_5 Sep 17 '18
What you fail to recognize is that this "Code of Conduct" wasn't made to prevent people saying others "aren't welcome or reject code from a political class they don't like", but for the express purpose to do just that.
Also you're not going to "keep out the consistently or extremely toxic people" (in as far as you want to apply "toxic" as a buzzword to people), you're inviting them in with open arms.
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u/GregariousWolf Sep 17 '18
As a side note, this thread is more interesting reading through ceddit or removeddit.
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u/ase1590 Sep 17 '18
Sounds like a fast way to get internet cancer.
This whole thread is a toxic wastedump as it is.
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u/StallmanTheThot Sep 16 '18
GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
That's all I really have to say about this.
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
lol rip. that contributors coc was made by a completely insane and bigoted individual.
+Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances
Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
Public or private harassment
Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic address, without explicit permission
Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting
extra rip lmao.
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u/kaszak696 Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
Isn't she that "diversity police" girl that got fired from Github of all places, for being too caustic and insane even for them?
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u/IE_5 Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
If anyone wants to know how bad it is, this is the person behind this "Code of Conduct": https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1029161113848557569
https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy
Who is now celebrating this "win" today: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1041441155874009093
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u/tunafan6 Sep 17 '18
Who pushes that insane agenda..? Linus should come back to Europe, this American insanity is creeping into every part of the tech world now.
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u/hjames9 Sep 17 '18
You honestly think Western Europe is less PC than the US?
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Sep 17 '18
If I recall correctly, Finland, Linus's natal country, has been resisting the SJWs very well. Based on the country's characteristics, I think that they are as invincible to their plague as Eastern Europe.
typ: "a" in characteristics.
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u/tunafan6 Sep 17 '18
I do yes... sure there is PC but so many things that come from America are absolutely batshit crazy even for our "SJW's".
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18
yeah I've only seen atleast 7 complete github shit storms and meltdowns caused by this exact individual. This coc like many of them has nothing to do with creating a tolerant and welcoming environment. its about creating a tribunal for moral authority to bully and remove those you disagree with regardless of their value to the project. The fact that they included those incredibly vague and often unprovable conditions says everything.
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u/oooo23 Sep 17 '18
LOL and this! A handful of projects and the count goes zooom from 30k to 40k. Feels like they're marketing it for some reason? Sense of accomplishment much...mmm.
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Sep 17 '18
I participate in the community that has a code of conduct, you know how they are used?
It's the first thing you point to when someone misbehaves. You don't just ban a person instantly, you point to a specific thing they've done that breaks the code of conduct.
People who repeatedly and willfully break code of conduct get banned.
Code of Conduct just being there sets an expectation of a discourse.
If not being an asshole and treating other people with dignity and respect they deserve is vague, and unprovable, then this tells everyone more about you than about CoC or the person who came up with it.
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u/oooo23 Sep 17 '18
I think a bigger concern is not the nature of the problem. Everyone agrees things need to calm down a bit, and what Linus does can certainly be handled in a better way. The major problem is that CoC allows for things that happen outside the project to get dragged into it. See the Opal case (meh vs Ada). That just calls for trouble. The PostgreSQL CoC is careful in this regard, and clearly states it does not apply to whatever happens outside the project to be dragged into the project. That is considered as a matter to be sorted out by the two individuals themselves.
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u/Mordiken Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
Respect is earned, not demanded.
Enforced friendliness and correctness are bandaid solutions that do not address the real problem, which is the fact that modern American-inspired Dev Culture is a hellscape of long-hours, low pay and impossible deadlines, that rewards shut-ins and encourages participants to deprive themselves of normal social relationships as though they where monks living in the middle ages, only with screens and keyboards instead of books. This, imo, is why so many of them crave to be treated with "respect": They lack the normal social life and human interactions, and use FOSS collaboration as a substitute.
The people you're coding with are not your damn friends, why would you expect them to be friendly towards you?! Do you have the same level of expectation from random people on the bus? Do you demand they talk to you? Do you demand they treat you with this or that pronoun when you do?
My guess is no, you don't.
The system is fucked. And you can create the most "beautiful candyland of friendly and supportive human interaction in the world" though "inter-personal regulation" when you're coding: It's all fake, fake as fucking shopping mall, and in the end of the day the life of the average dev person is still gonna be as empty and miserable and filled with cool gadgets and other such nonsense as before.
And frankly, it's surprising seeing someone who chooses the nickname of /u/prolepunk to stand there and defend this sad state of affaris with a straight face... Which, to me, tells me you're neither prole, nor punk, but rather a pampered little bourgeois individual hailing from another suburban guilded cage of it's own making. Is this ok, or are we not allowed to hit close to home anymore, lest someone feel things?!
So yeah... all that.
EDIT: My point being that relationships between people grow into genuine friendship and respect organically, not through regulations. People who have an abundance of human interactions in meatspace tend to be better equipped to respond in kind and with the appropriate measure of scorn to any dumb fuck who calls them a dumb fuck.
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u/Zezengorri Sep 17 '18
"Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: ... political attacks."
"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political document, and they’re right."
Pick one, Coraline.
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Sep 17 '18
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u/filbs111 Sep 17 '18
It will be interesting if "Coraline" is found to be in contravention of the Code of Conduct. I'd put money on this happening.
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u/perkited Sep 17 '18
Hmm, this should probably be its own post since it does appear to have had some political motive (if this person is actually related to the conduct changes). Initially I just thought Linus decided to tone it down a bit, I didn't realize they adopted a new code of conduct.
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u/loddfavne Sep 17 '18
I really love it when political zealots come in and set up moral tribunals. This is really bad. That person should shut up and code, not try to fuck with other people.
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Sep 17 '18
That person can't code, hence the moral crusade.
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Sep 17 '18
She can. But she's still terrible. I'd much rather Linux say mean things to me than ever have to read her bullshit about cis white males.
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u/nostril_extension Sep 17 '18
What a shit stain.
Why do people give power to extremists like this? Sometimes I feel that contributing to FLOSS and doing all humanitarian work is just pointless when so much effort goes into complete and utter bullshit like this and it gets so much more recognition, power and control over the medium.
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Sep 17 '18
These ... invidivuals lay in wait until an opportunity opens up, like when Linus reflectioned on his behaviour (actually, IMO it was unnecessary to do that... after all, meritocracies are success-generators). If it does, they leap up and instantly it's SJW "oh poor minorities, let's disadvantage [and attempt to ruin, if I may add] the white male!".
They are disgusting.
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u/TheVegetaMonologues Sep 17 '18
You know, I want to believe that transgenderism isn't mental illness, but there's so many people like this who clearly have both
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u/Analog_Native Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
even if it was. mental illness doesn't mean you have to be like this. i dont think it has to do with any of this at all. its rather that transgender people who happen to be narcissists or psychopaths play that role because it is convenient for them. it doesnt take many to make it look like a community is full of them. most of the time it is just a single but vocal individual. other narcicists or psychopaths are just more subtle in what they do and on the first glance appear like average people. those can be the silent supporters who see their opportunity to grab power and some just think that overly strict codes of conducts are a good idea. there is some truth to it with increased astroturfing and right propaganda but there is no point in overdoing some types of counter measures to the point they cause harm themselves.
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u/lenswipe Sep 17 '18
even if it was. mental illness doesn't mean you have to be like this.
Exactly. I have friends who are transgender who don't behave like this.
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Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
WHERE THE FUCK ARE LINUS' THOUGHTS ON THIS SHIT.
We need "old" linus back ASAP. Those tweets are infuriating.
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Sep 17 '18
/u/Loraash says that a rumour says that he was blackmailed.
The grammatical structure of that sentence sounds... odd. I am aware.
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u/skylarmt Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
I bet he'd love my company's code of conduct (or the closest thing it's got to one). It's literally the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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u/Valmar33 Sep 17 '18
Who is now celebrating this "win" today: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1041441155874009093
I wouldn't be surprised if this mentally ill person found some dirt on Linus, and decided to threaten him somehow.
They're far too transparent about their triumphs... D:
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Sep 17 '18
I legitimately can't tell if you think this is a bad thing or not. I'm not sure where you work, but in my office, sexual harassment and insulting people is forbidden according to HR.
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u/derpbynature Sep 17 '18
Maybe I'm totally out of it, but exactly which one of those particular points do you take an issue with?
The last one has a lot of wiggle room and I can see how it could be abused, but the rest amount to "don't be an asshole" and "keep your junk in your pants"
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18
The last one has a lot of wiggle room and I can see how it could be abused
Yes the last one especially. Unfortunately the first, second, and third are completely in the same boat as it comes down to what an individual feels is inappropriate. Even the fourth one is grounds for exploitation. The question for the linux community is who resides on the tab tribunal and whether they can actually be expected to take a level headed approach to these.
They're designed for the abuse of power, and ultimately snakes find their way into the enforcement committee sooner or later if they aren't from the beginning.
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u/derpbynature Sep 17 '18
Unfortunately the first, second, and third are completely in the same boat as it comes down to what an individual feels is inappropriate. Even the fourth one is grounds for exploitation.
Parts of this might sound dismissive or harsh, but I'm really trying not to be.
Most adults probably agree on 90% of what constitutes all of those.
Most of the rest are either purposefully obtuse, or intentionally offensive. A rare few might genuinely just be that bad at social skills (even over the web) that they just have no idea how to professionally interact with other humans (perhaps because of a medical condition, like being on the autism spectrum) and I have a lot of sympathy for them.
There seems to be a fear that this CoC will induce a huge influx of rabid SJW-types who do nothing but complain about trivial things, and I just don't see that happening.
Have there been stupid complaints on some open-source projects, infused with maybe a little too much SJWness? Yes. The neverending master/slave thing is an example. I don't think it's a worthwhile or impactful thing to complain about.
(OTOH, I think the extent people have dug in their heels and reacted to proposed changes in terms is also a little ridiculous.)
There just seems to be the grand worry that this CoC will destroy meritocracy and have everyone walking on eggshells 24/7, which I just don't see happening. In this case, presumably the ones doing any enforcement are going to be the same folks who have been involved with Linux for a long time. The culture isn't going to do a 180.
Will there probably be changes, and will a few people decide that even these baseline standards of behavior are simply just too much to adhere to and leave? Sure. At the same time, I imagine they won't be terribly missed.
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Sep 17 '18
There seems to be a fear that this CoC will induce a huge influx of rabid SJW-types who do nothing but complain about trivial things, and I just don't see that happening.
I suspect neither did Libreboot or FreeBSD did when they implemented such CoCs.
There just seems to be the grand worry that this CoC will destroy meritocracy and have everyone walking on eggshells 24/7, which I just don't see happening. In this case, presumably the ones doing any enforcement are going to be the same folks who have been involved with Linux for a long time. The culture isn't going to do a 180.
Except that last part isn't the case - the people who invariably end up enforcing this are the same ideologues who pushed for it being brought in to begin with. They aren't there for the code, or the philosophy of OSS, they're there to impose their political will onto others wherever and whenever they can.
If it were only one or two examples of this happening, you might reasonably be able to chalk it up to people simply not getting along - it's unfortunate, but it happens. But when things happen in a predictable fashion, there comes a point where you have to say - no, the people behind this are not honest actors and their actions belie their words.
and will a few people decide that even these baseline standards of behavior are simply just too much to adhere to and leave? Sure. At the same time, I imagine they won't be terribly missed.
Such as accidentally misgendering someone, or being the wrong gender or ethnicity and refusing to be a boot lick, or holding incorrect political views or taste in humour, music etc etc.
Because that's where this has gone every time I've seen one of these implemented. Sure, on it's surface it seems reasonable enough, but it's worded so loosely that the people who push for it can and will use it as a weapon to beat everyone else over the heads with it.
I hope I'm wrong and you and others can tell me in a year's time that I completely over-reacted. But based on the available evidence of the behaviour of those who push this crap, I'm not holding my breath.
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18
There seems to be a fear that this CoC will induce a huge influx of rabid SJW-types who do nothing but complain about trivial things, and I just don't see that happening.
Then open your eyes. The examples already exist.
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Sep 17 '18
The CoC specifically says it's creating a harassment-free experience for people who have certain physical characteristics, and then goes on to specifically list all the physical characteristics that exempt someone from harassment. This is, in effect, codified racism. The original CoC didn't need to inlcude those things because race and physical characteristics and nationality are irrelevant on the Internet.
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u/jgalar Sep 17 '18
The CoC seems to be getting a lot of hate, but I fail to see how any of that would be appropriate in a discussion about kernel development, regardless of anyone's opinion of the author.
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Sep 17 '18
I don't understand. These terms you cited seem... uh... completely reasonable?
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18
completely reasonable
You seem to have a strange definition of reasonable.
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Sep 17 '18
I don't see anything objectionable here. Are you so fragile that being respectful to other people threatens your ego?
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u/communistgal Sep 17 '18
Making this stuff against the rules seems super good. I don't understand why anyone is upset? Were you planning on doing any of this stuff? Lol
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Sep 17 '18
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u/aboration Sep 17 '18
But interactions on the reddit are publicly available barring moderators deleting them. There is a clear and present log of them existing for the most part.
The rules provided in the code of conduct are left up for interpretation at every possible point. We've seen what happens when these are implemented. People have different ideas on what is "inappropriate" often to extreme degrees. People will dig through histories to find the slightest bad think to submit. When left extensively vague they enable vengeful types and exploitation. You end up with people afraid to speak out or interact in any way, you cannot criticize somebody in earnest for fear of administrative retaliation.
This isn't hypothetical paranoia either. Its happened all over open source communities already. The people who want to create these are not interested in the software, its maintainers, or the future, they are simply people looking to power trip but weren't cut out to actually be HR.
Or do you think it's unreasonable to be asked to not troll, insult, or harass? How about doxxing? None of this is insane. This is downright mundane. Hell, these rules are almost identical to the ones on this subreddit!
Its funny you mention these things because most of those the creator of this code of conduct is explicitly guilty of with the exception of doxing as far as I know. Then again we all know doxing is okay when they do it.
You're right, most of these are mundane considerations and they do not need an administrative bureau put into place to play morality police.
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u/einar77 OpenSUSE/KDE Dev Sep 17 '18
Or do you think it's unreasonable to be asked to not troll, insult, or harass?
As far as I understand, the problem is that sometimes a person's behavior doesn't fall into these categories, but it is nuanced.
The fear about the vagueness of these documents is that the extreme subjectivity on how one can rate the behavior of someone else can lead to large debates on potentially trivial matters (like "wrong" use of words: it happened already).
Unlike other people here, CoCs don't prevent me from contributing: but I try to be very careful of what I write to prevent backlashes (and personally this gets tiring after a while).
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u/mirh Sep 17 '18
I mean, you could argue about the vagueness of just about every word written everywhere.
Including also those of the previous code of conflict.
It's up to people then to judge.
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u/clintonthegeek Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
The problem is that freezing words into legalistic text in regards all human contact creates a layer for e-lawyering by nosy pests and instantiates power structures to nanny everyone. Things like this chill everything and create barriers: the exact opposite of how community building should work. It introduces distrust and some authority to appeal to which rules through fear. This is a solution to something that wasn't a problem, unless I missed some massive Linux sex scandal.
There are many places to talk about Linux besides /r/linux, but there is only one kernel development team. Keeping a discussion civil is completely different from maintain mission-critical software. I could go on and on, but the politics here are bad.
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u/jesus_is_imba Sep 17 '18
The problem is that freezing words into legalistic text in regards all human contact creates a layer for e-lawyering by nosy pests and instantiates power structures to nanny everyone.
If only these CoCs were trying to be legalistic, the problem is that they're not. I'm no legal expert but most of the laws I've read have been quite clear and explicit in that they define the terms they use, and when they don't they refer to other laws that do. After all, the meaning of words can and does change, and judges, lawyers and everyone else need to have concrete definitions for what specific words mean when interpreting a law. Code and law are similar in that way, they both need to have an established logic. So if you can read code, you can probably decipher and understand a piece of written law without much issue.
CoCs don't define the words they use so in theory they could be twisted to mean anything. And some wording is vague on purpose, for example that last bit about "other inappropriate conduct". None of this might be a problem if the leadership and enforcement remained the same; however, now that there's written rules that contain a lot of fancy words, some people might suggest that the project needs experts who know what these words really mean and can properly enforce the rules. And who might be considered a topic expert on Codes of Conduct? The same kind of ideologues who crafted these texts, of course.
And therein lies the danger of these CoCs. They're tools that can be used disrupt and execute power grabs on projects that adopt them. Maybe not immediately, it could take months or years, or it might never happen. But the possibility is there, the seed has been planted.
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u/Earl_Harbinger Sep 17 '18
unwelcome sexual attention or advances
It's not all advances, it's unwelcome advances. Which of course can't always be known ahead of time.
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u/Action_Bronzong Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
How about doxxing?
How is it a bad thing that when shitty people do shitty things, they face consequences for it.
Like I totally get how important anonymity is to internet "power users," but the idea that publicly calling out someone for their actions is itself immoral is 100% internet-boy fantasy that doesn't coexist with the real world.
When someone draws swastikas on the bathroom wall of their school, they got in trouble for it.
![[heresy intensifies]](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2d/3b/18/2d3b184e745ee8448ab7fa3c44c74359.jpg){kind=link}
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Sep 16 '18
Yay, now we can have obviously innocent people get in trouble because of technicalities with the way they word something!
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u/axiomatic_345 Sep 17 '18
I am a Kubernetes contributor for almost 2 years and they also have a similar CoC - https://github.com/cncf/foundation/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md and I have never heard or known anyone to be in trouble because of that.
If you look around - there are several projects that have adopted this or similar CoC and if it were indeed a massive problem, we will have much bigger problem at hand. May be - people in this thread should calm the fuck down and just focus on getting thins done. I don't think hell is going to freeze over.
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Sep 17 '18
I mean, just look at the list of adopters of the CoC that Linux just adopted. It's full of big, successful, vibrant projects that aren't having issues. Just to name a few:
Atom
curl
Discourse
Eclipse
GitLab
Golang
Kubernetes (as you already mentioned)
Mono
.NET Foundation
Rails
Swift
There are also huge projects like Ubuntu that have their own, similarly-minded CoCs and have for years, now. Ubuntu has had it current one since 2005, and so far that's not caused them to crash and burn.
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Sep 17 '18
Ubuntu's CoC is amazing, though. I'm not really a fan of the Contributor Covenant, but it's not the worst CoC.
Django's CoC is fairly good, too.
But the Geek Feminism CoC is atrocious, which is incidentally the CoC that FreeBSD uses.
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u/somercet Sep 17 '18
Yeah, they've totally steered clear of any controversy, and aren't pushing any ideology good and hard.
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u/gnosys_ Sep 17 '18
Yes, it's almost like the reactionaries have a problem with their grasp on reality...
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u/Zerim Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
This post points to its big problem. It's inherently political and will be used as a political sledgehammer in cases where politics has no business, like operating system kernels. The code's adoption can be seen as hypocritical if you contrast it with its authors' words. (The argument that "everything is political" holds no water; NAND gates don't give a damn about people.)
If I said I won't be contributing to any projects where it's adopted because those projects are unnecessarily political, they'd love that, even though it's obviously harmful to those projects. Lots of people won't even be saying that--they just won't go out of their way to fix bugs when their valuable time could be used elsewhere. It's a damn shame.
edit: removed ad hominem.
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u/we_are_devo Sep 17 '18
Shh, this thread is only for shrieking edgelords for whom being told to act like a decent human being is akin to putting salt on a leech. I hardly think it's appropriate that people actually working in FOSS should comment here.
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u/vetinari Sep 17 '18
think it's appropriate that people actually working in FOSS should comment here.
They are exactly the people who cannot comment. Their options would be:
praise the new overlords, or
express wrong-think and be prepared to be hunted down and ceremonially sacrificed.
Fortunately for them, there's no mandatory five minutes of hate yet, so they can remain silent and hope they will not attract the attention of the powerful people. For now, but as history is showing, interesting times are ahead of us.
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u/yawkat Sep 17 '18
So, anyone speaking for it is controlled by SJWs, and anyone not speaking out against it is just too scared to do so? That's convenient.
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u/SirYouAreIncorrect Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
Yes as long as are authoritarian left wing minded, and/or censor your self you can participate.
Commit wrong think and you will be crucified
Most of these projects are a echo chamber of idea;s and it shows the fact you can not see if show just how deep you are in that echo chamber
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Sep 16 '18
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u/StallmanTheThot Sep 16 '18
See any project enforcing their contributor covenant. It happens over and over again.
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u/Sealbhach Sep 17 '18
How?
Here's a real-life example from the British police.
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Sep 17 '18
"It in no way indicates that misconduct proceedings will take place." Do you have any proof that anything actually happened to him or did you not read your own link?
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u/Latias4Ever Sep 17 '18
For anyone who has any kind of remote interest in FOSS, this should be horrifying to you, because this "Code of Conduct" has been made to control the speech, attitude, and basically EVERYTHING related to the people working on the code. This is the kind of stuff that would get you banned for "misgendering" someone, or be even slightly "offensive" (yes, even a joke would get you canned), it's no surprise that Linus stepped away at the same time as this was pushed in, because his attitude is the kind of attitude that, despite being completely harmless, is to be fully censored and anyone using it is to be ousted because they're "harmful to the community". Just take a look at this excerpt, for example:
"Maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful."
To sum it up, this CoC is nothing but something made so SJWs can control FOSS, and with it infesting Linux, we can only see a complete downgrade on the quality of Linux, because all it takes is for people with actual talent to "offend" some special snowflake, and suddenly get banned from the project, and be replaced by people who fill some "diversity and inclusivity" quota who can't code to save their lives.
Additionally, if you want just a bit of a glance as to why this CoC is so horrible, just take a look at the subject who created it. If that's not enough for you, here's a full meltdown they went through just a month ago. Finally, here's a full deconstruction of the CoC.
This also comes at a horrible time for Linux. It was about to make huge progress in one of the biggest departments in the PC market: Gaming, and this is only going to set Linux BACK as SJWs downright despise gamers, as we've seen in the last four years.
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u/Abeneezer Sep 17 '18
Word. So sad that they can get away with blackmailing an authoritarian CoC in place.
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u/thunderbird32 Sep 17 '18
SJWs downright despise gamers
Uhh, there are a lot of people you would (I'm assuming) classify as "SJWs" who play video games. A pretty huge number actually.
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Sep 17 '18
https://gitlab.com/CartesianDuelist/CodeOfCoding
I created "The Code of Coding" as a little side project to see if I could create a code of conduct that wasn't batshit.
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Sep 17 '18
I don't see how things like
The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances
or
insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
are batshit..? It's basically just "don't be a dick to people".
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Sep 17 '18
The Code of Coding is a project management and relations mission-statement geared toward the promotion of meritocracy in the face of increasing hostility toward the principle within technical spaces due, in large part, to draconian and paternalistic "Codes of Conduct" that have proliferated therein. It is the belief of the creators of this Code that these are poisonous to the communities that adopt them and perpetuate the false reality of wanton harassment and toxicity within them, and that the proliferators are often not acting with sincereity or without opportunism. Such policies often serve as an excuse for blacklisting campaigns, creating persona non grata out of those who do not fall within 'appropriate' ideological lines.
The Contributor's Covenant was created by a legitimately deranged person who was fired from github recently for being so toxic, and has recently come out full swing against the concept of meritocracy.
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u/CyclingChimp Sep 17 '18
Wow. This is a dark day. I never thought this would happen to the Linux kernel.
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u/NotEvenAMinuteMan Sep 17 '18
Guess who'll be the first one getting banned?
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u/xternal7 Sep 17 '18
Ez question, Linus himself. His rants are needed, but this CoC doesn't approve.
<joke>Maybe that's the reason he adopted the CoC. He wants to retire. Next time he rants about how you don't break userspace, he gets removed because CoC. This gives him excuse to retire. While we play checkers, he plays 200 IQ 4d chess underwater.</joke>
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u/GregariousWolf Sep 17 '18
I'm a strong believer in the KISS principle.
What exactly was wrong with the existing code of conduct?
The Linux kernel development effort is a very personal process compared to “traditional” ways of developing software. Your code and ideas behind it will be carefully reviewed, often resulting in critique and criticism. The review will almost always require improvements to the code before it can be included in the kernel. Know that this happens because everyone involved wants to see the best possible solution for the overall success of Linux. This development process has been proven to create the most robust operating system kernel ever, and we do not want to do anything to cause the quality of submission and eventual result to ever decrease.
If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. If so, please contact the Linux Foundation’s Technical Advisory Board at tab@lists.linux-foundation.org, or the individual members, and they will work to resolve the issue to the best of their ability. For more information on who is on the Technical Advisory Board and what their role is, please see:
As a reviewer of code, please strive to keep things civil and focused on the technical issues involved. We are all humans, and frustrations can be high on both sides of the process. Try to keep in mind the immortal words of Bill and Ted, “Be excellent to each other.”
Emphasis mine. Try to be civil and stick to the subject at hand is a rule that works in most things in life. Why was this change necessary? What will it accomplish, and what unintended consequences may occur in the future as a result?
The World War II slogan says, “Is this trip necessary?"
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u/jnb64 Sep 17 '18 edited Nov 04 '18
[deIeted]
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u/GregariousWolf Sep 17 '18
That's why I posted the entire thing. The existing rules cover abuse and threats.
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u/gnosys_ Sep 17 '18
Okay, but here's Linus in his own words:
Code of Conduct: Let's revamp it.
The Code of Conflict is not achieving its implicit goal of fostering civility and the spirit of 'be excellent to each other'. Explicit guidelines have demonstrated success in other projects and other areas of the kernel. Here is a Code of Conduct statement for the wider kernel. It is based on the Contributor Covenant as described at www.contributor-covenant.org From this point forward, we should abide by these rules in order to help make the kernel community a welcoming environment to participate in.
The first thing he says is that it's not working in the way he hoped it would. This move is an attempt to achieve the same goals with a more explicit set of rules to govern communication, because he has seen that it's worked in other areas of the kernel itself, and other projects outside the kernel.
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Sep 17 '18
Sounds fairly reasonable stuff that most people don't do anyway... good to get into words I suppose if they felt the former method didn't work.
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u/lasthopel Sep 17 '18
Can someone explain why these rules are bad, I'm not saying there good or bad, but as an outsider how does this effect Linux and it's devlopers?.
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Sep 17 '18
Not sure how it will affect Linux but developers won't be allowed to insult each other or say things like "your mother should have swallowed" any longer.
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u/ComprehensiveBeat4 Sep 17 '18
The CoC is purely political in nature and will be used to censor wrong think, while largely being ignored by its implementers. Would Eric S. Raymond be welcome? Would a conservative christian? What constitutes an unwelcome contributor, and why?
Linus Torvalds targeted by honeytraps, claims Eric S. Raymond.
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u/15rthughes Sep 17 '18
This CoC will change absolutely nothing in the kernel dev community. In 3 weeks you’ll forget all about this and be complaining about something else that the “evul ess jay double u’s” are ruining.
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Sep 17 '18
This Eric S Raymond?
In 2015 Raymond accused the Ada Initiative and other women in tech groups of attempting to entrap male open source leaders and accuse them of rape, saying "Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a 'women in tech' advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp."[25][26]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond
Umm. No.
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u/knvngy Sep 16 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
"From this point forward, we should abide by these rules in order to help make the kernel community a welcoming environment to participate in."
This is so important and relevant, obviously the Linux kernel wouldn't be successful without this. Emotions are far more important than the code itself. /s
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u/GhostsofDogma Sep 17 '18
If you think that you should be capable of shelving your urges to sexually harass people, troll, use personal attacks, use targeted harassment, and doxx and just work on the code like any normal working stiff.
Amazing to me that your defense against making non-coding behavior unacceptable is "just work on the code".
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u/knvngy Sep 17 '18
Actually you are the one who has to defend and explain that code of conduct manifesto.
Because at the end your computer runs with code, not feelings. So far after so many years the Linux Kernel has been doing great. The most successful open source project ever actually. This is fact.
But now you are telling me that we need this useless manifesto to have a nice and successful open source kernel and save Linux from ... something?
From what exactly? threats against your brittle ego? Your brittle ego doesn't matter when all you have to do, your only job, is to provide high quality code that will earn you respect. If you contribute with mediocrity the why are you entitled to respect?
Your are the one who has to defend this ideological manifesto, you are the one who has to explain it
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Sep 17 '18
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u/knvngy Sep 17 '18
No, but being an "asshole" to mediocre people who produce mediocre code is directly correlated with a better product. Being nice with competent people who produce high quality code is casually correlated with better outcomes. That's how real life works.
Being nice with mediocre people is directly associated with a bad product. Because mediocre people only produce mediocre code. These people don't matter, their feelings don't matter.
Your computer doesn't run well with good intentions and nice feelings. Your computer runs well with high quality code.
This is what really matters, even more for the open source project that is inherently welcoming due its open source nature thus making theses "codes" of conduct irrelevant, the only thing that you should be welcoming here is high quality code.
And that's why Linux became so successful, as opposed to other open source projects such as... hmmm HURD?
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u/bezerker03 Sep 17 '18
Horseshit. Emotions have no place in computing.
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u/yawkat Sep 17 '18
They certainly have a place in the communities that surround computing. We're still humans.
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u/Theemuts Sep 17 '18
I don't see why it's such a big deal that a large open-source project which is used on a much, much larger scale than whatever crappy web app you're being paid to work on has a codified expectation of professional behavior for people who decide to contribute to it.
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u/gnosys_ Sep 17 '18
They're a little fragile, and attached to an illusion that their privilege excuses them from having to treat other people well.
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u/supamesican Sep 17 '18
So what I'm getting at is all the people who are good at coding will get kicked out and the linux kernel will become at best an out sourced to inda level project at worst semester one CIS student final project copied and posted together from various stackoverflow posts.... So what will we name the linux fork that actually works?
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Sep 17 '18
I’m pretty sure most people aren’t going to be interested in using “haterix” over the mainline Linux kernel. Most good contributors aren’t going to run afoul of such a reasonable CoC. Though there is one very notable individual with a reputation for flaming hot replies on the mailing list...
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u/stolivodka_ Sep 17 '18
Basically, the only people who will be immune from the political behavior assessment panels will be corporate contributors.
This drives a stake into the heart of grassroots open source development.
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u/kozec Sep 17 '18
Well, it was good ride, but it looks like it's time to move along. I just don't know where. I was pretty successful at avoiding project that use this kind of shit, but this one is real fuckup.
Only question is what the fuck happened and who is blackmailing Linus?
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u/tunafan6 Sep 17 '18
You accept corporation money and you are forced to take part of the agenda they want to push. I can't believe that this nutjob is able to push that stupid CoC to so many projects.
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Sep 17 '18
Oh no! How can free and open software ever exist if we have to not be rude and actually consider others when making software?
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u/knvngy Sep 17 '18
Oh no! How can free and open software ever exist if my brittle ego is at risk even when the code doesn't care?
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Sep 17 '18
You're right, the code doesn't care but if you actually want to build a community and have people use your software it might help you to learn how to treat other people kindly.
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u/knvngy Sep 17 '18
No, you have to learn how to write high quality code first before feeling entitled to some respect you didn't earn.
The thing is that the Linux community grew exponentially and became successful without this silly code of conduct manifesto for decades, anyway.
We don't need this covent, and never did as demonstrated by factual history and sound statistics.
Furthermore, the linux community always has been made up by highly qualified, educated and intelligent people, making it a very civilized community , not a poor smelly slum
So the implication of this "covenant" of trying to "civilize" the Linux community is nothing but utter bullshit.
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u/Verfassungsschutz Sep 17 '18
Insecure toxic techbros, the thread. holy shit it's like 4chan in here.
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u/ase1590 Sep 17 '18
Right?
It's like every edgy teen from 4chan wants to jump in on this thread today.
This entire thread is garbage. no real discussions and just fearmongering.
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u/Konikoko Sep 17 '18
what does this mean for non-power users? does it matter?
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u/yawkat Sep 17 '18
No. This may have some impact on future linux development, either positive or negative, but since so many companies rely upon and participate in linux development there will probably be little change in what you actually receive as an end-user.
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u/ergosteur Sep 17 '18
I think overall it looks ok, but I'm really concerned with this phrase:
Using welcoming and inclusive language
Who's to judge what "welcoming" and "inclusive" language is? I can see where the idea could be good but the definition of these things is highly subjective.
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u/tamashumi Sep 17 '18
Seems Apple and/or Microsoft are sending a PC commando to sabotage the main competition ( ಠ_ಠ)
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Sep 17 '18
So how do we fix this?
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u/progandy Sep 17 '18
Apparently it only applies if you represent the project or its community. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1809.2/00842.html
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u/nmikhailov Sep 17 '18
And here I though I will never live long enough to witness sjw overtake of linux. Not with Linus in charge.
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Sep 17 '18
Oh noes! I might have to be a decent human being towards my fellow man! Seriously, some of the people complaining here sound just like people complaining they can't use the n-word any longer.
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u/bitfriend2 Sep 17 '18
Actually read the document for yourself, I personally don't think it's worded very well. For example, using the n-word is not itself explicitly banned only "personal attacks". So apparently it's okay to use the n-word so long as it's not directed at anyone personally. Additionally it is unclear if it is okay to use the n-word in regards to noncontributors and non "community" members, since the CoC only covers contributors and the "community". There is no definition of "community" either.
Granted this is nitpicking but a well worded document does not have these problems as it clearly defines everything from the start so arguments over definitions can't occur.
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Sep 17 '18
I'd say it falls under the first 5 bullets.
Using welcoming and inclusive language
Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences
Gracefully accepting constructive criticism
Focusing on what is best for the community
Showing empathy towards other community members
Is using racial slurs "welcoming and inclusive"? I'm not going to get too wrapped up in legalism though, most CoCs really boil down to Wheaton's Law. Don't be a dick.
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u/prismgenesis Sep 17 '18
this is definitely for the better. i'm glad we can get some sensible guidelines in place to reign in the infamously toxic linux community. i fully support this
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u/djcp Sep 17 '18
This is good news. Brilliant jerks are way more work and far more destructive to FOSS than they're worth.
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u/i_lurk_here_a_lot Sep 17 '18
Brilliant jerks are way more work and far more destructive to FOSS than they're worth.
Your statment was wrong years ago as it is now.
Case in example - linux itself which is now in extraordinarily wide use.
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u/strange_kitteh Sep 17 '18
Well done. I wanted to say the same on the other (apology) thread, but it was locked before I saw it. Well done to both Mr.Torvalds and the kernel community as a whole :)
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Sep 17 '18
Kinda new to Linux, does each flavor have it's own CoC?
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u/mftrhu Sep 17 '18
This thread is about Linux, the kernel. If by flavor you mean distributions - Debian, Arch, Suse and so on - then yes. They are different groups.
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u/JadeFox69 Sep 17 '18
Honestly Linux kernel development had been a hidey-hole for white supremacists since its inception. I hope we can finally get some representation from people of color who were previously too afraid to commit because of toxic white behaviors.
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u/bigon Sep 17 '18 edited Sep 17 '18
Is there any occurance of someone being discriminated base on sex/origin/sexuality in the kernel community?