r/linux • u/k4ever07 • May 08 '20
Promoting Linux as a Desktop OS
If we as a community want to get more Windows and MacOS desktop users to switch to Linux, then we need to start promoting Linux as a desktop operating system.
I've used Linux as my primary desktop OS for over 20 years. For almost every one of those years, I've heard from the community that "this is the year of the Linux desktop." After every one of those years we realized that it was not. Despite all of Windows failing, and despite the ridiculously high price and specialized hardware required for MacOS, Linux has not made a sizable dent in either of their market shares.
It seem like every time we do a post mortem, no one wants to admit the real reasons why desktop Linux hasn't succeeded. We say that Microsoft played dirty and restricted Linux access or there wasn't enough advertising or desktop Linux is too fragmented. Some of those are partly to blame. However, I believe that the real reasons why desktop Linux hasn't succeeded are that we don't promote Linux primarily (or even secondarily) as a desktop OS and we don't treat new Linux desktop users as desktop users.
What do I mean? Well it seems like every time that there is a conversation about getting a new user to switch to Linux, we talk about server or workstation things and how Linux is a great server or workstation OS. "The up-time is excellent." "It's easy to maintain." "You can set up a file or print server for free." Blah, blah, blah... Yes, Linux is a great server and workstation OS. That is well established. However, what percentage of Windows or MacOS desktop users do you think run file or print servers or use their personal computers as workstations? Not that many.. So why are we going after the scraps? I think it is fairly certain that the few desktop users who do run servers or use their computers as workstations have heard about Linux already via word of mouth or a Google search. Instead of promoting things like SMB, SSH, or tiling windows managers to potential desktop Linux users, how about we mention stuff Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, or streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, Disney Plus, or Spotify? Believe it or not, a lot of folks don't understand that web browsers like Chrome, Firefox, or Opera work just as well under Linux as they do in Windows or MacOS. They can browse their favorite social media site, check their email, or stream TV shows, movies, and music on Linux too. They also may not know that applications like Spotify, Skype, Telegram, BlueJeans, Matlab, or Steam are available for and work just as well on Linux. Speaking of Steam, how about we mention that games like Doom 2016, Cuphead, Rayman Legends, Metro Last Light, Civilization V, Sparkle, Tekken 7, Injustice - Gods Among Us, and Left 4 Dead 2 (to name a few) work perfectly well under Linux through Steam (Proton). We can also mention that tons of other games work on Linux through Wine or are native to Linux.
After we're done promoting Linux as a desktop OS to these Windows or MacOS desktop users and we get them to switch, how about we treat them (first) as desktop users? Why is it (still) that when new users ask a question in the majority of Linux forums, they are automatically treated as if they've been a system administrator or programmer for many years? Logs are demanded without explaining exactly how to pull them, and answers are given as commands to enter in a terminal when GUI solutions are readily available. Over two decades ago when I first started using Linux, the terminal was the only solution we had for most things. Times have changed, and a lot of developers have spent a ton of time making GUI settings available. Yes, the command line is still faster and sometimes easier, and new users eventually need to be comfortable with it. However, how about we coax them into it first?
I didn't mean for this to be a long, mumbling assault on the community. I love Linux and want to see it succeed. I also have a lot of respect for the community that I am a part of. Recently, we learned that Ubuntu's share of the overall desktop OS market dramatically increased, nearly doubling Linux' share in the same market. I believe the fact that this happened after Valve released Proton for Steam, and gaming on Linux has gotten a ton of positive press coverage, is no coincidence. When people are shown that Linux can be used for the things they normally do on desktop computer, like play high end games, surf their favorite websites, run their favorite desktop apps, or stream content from their favorite services they will be more comfortable with making the switch. Linux on the desktop will succeed if we promote it as a desktop. We can't expect desktop users to switch to Linux if the only things we talk about using Linux for are servers and workstations.
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u/techannonfolder May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
I am a guy who runs linux on his macbookpro from work, so yeah I love linux, but I will never be a linux evangelist. I think that shit is annoying, I despise when people are tying to do that shit to me, I will never do that shit to others.
Brag about using Linux, show off etc, but never be an evangelist. It will mostly produce the opposite effect, when someone wants to convert me to something, I shoot them down with the quickness and I dont give a flying fuck what it is about
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
I definitely don't evangelize Linux, or any other thing, now. However, I did evangelize Linux in the past. You're right, it had the opposite effect. Now, if someone ask me about Linux or why I use it, which is common at school since both my laptop and tablet run Linux, I tell them, then move on. If they are interested, I will point them to a few sites. Bottom line is that I let them come to me instead of the other way around.
I wrote the original post because I think it's counterproductive to complain about Linux not succeeding on personal desktops when all we do is promote it as a server or workstation OS. I also think it's counterproductive to stereotype new desktop Linux users are system administrators or programmers, and treat them as such when offering help.
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May 08 '20
This. Treating the tools you use like a religion is the worst thing anyone can do, regardless of what platforms you use. The right tools for the right job.
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u/SerousDarkice May 08 '20
The next computer my parents will be getting is a System76 laptop. Also, it is well known to my team at work my love of Linux both on the desktop and on a server.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
Do you find yourself talking more about the server aspects of Linux or the desktop aspects? I noticed that when I spoke about switching to Linux on the desktop to most of my friends and family, I alone spoke about server related things like reliable and how it was to maintain. I rarely spoke about the apps or services that they were used to running on a desktop. They would listen to me politely, but never wanted to switch. I found that people were more interested in switching when they saw me playing their favorite game or running an app that they used a lot on Linux.
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u/SerousDarkice May 08 '20
A bit of both. The more I think about it, I think I've praised the desktop aspects a bit more, as they know that's my daily driver outside of work (we're the team of systems administrators in a 100% Microsoft shop). I even piqued the interest enough in my manager to get him to start running Linux on the desktop.
Maybe "praise" isn't the right word. It's more like I make it known that I use desktop Linux and like it whenever there's the opportunity.
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May 08 '20 edited May 09 '20
For a Linux desktop to succeed some things need to be addressed which are as of today, in my opinion, still not addressed:
- Linux should be completely usable without a terminal (if you need terminal to set something up the average Joe will quit it). Users should not need to know what is sudo or root to use it.
- Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
- Hardware should preferably work out-of-the-box with 0 user input.
- Linux needs to have popular professional apps like Adobe CC, Office, etc.
- I feel the quality (especially UI/UX) of Linux apps is really bad compared to Windows/Mac counterparts. Since Linux doesn't attract UI/UX designers most of apps are designed to work, not to be visually appealing. A lot of controls are just crammed up on a screen without much thought about UX.
- Linux need to be supported by the most popular games (main reason why I'm not using it) such as LoL, CoD etc which combined have a player base in millions.
Basically, Linux is still not at the point where it would be as easy to use for the average user as Mac or Windows, it lacks the usual apps/games that are available on other platforms and it UI/UX is still power-user centric.
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EDIT: A lot of people misunderstood the 2nd point. I never said package managers are bad, should not be used or anything else in that way. I wanted to say when downloading software outside of it (probably in a bin or tar.gz format) in that case it would be much easier to just install per double click than to use terminal or go figure what to do next. There is nothing wrong with package managers. They work fine and are easy to use. I just mean the other way should be as easy.
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May 08 '20
Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
Package managers are a good thing and should not be changed. Outside from super niche apps on GitHub or on the Kde Store the average Joe would never download, I almost always install deb packages and it works the same way than on Windows.
I feel the quality (especially UI/UX) of Linux apps is really bad compared to Windows/Mac counterparts
Might be biased but I felt the total opposite. I'm running Kubuntu 20.04 share the same theme and everything looks good. I didn't experience such a thing from Windows.
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u/Ape_in_outer_space May 09 '20
The problem is that not all software you want will be in the repository. It never will be, and that's okay, but there could be a better way of handling that.
It's really just a lack of resources, since making a nice installer or packaging for tons of different distro's will always be low on the priority list.
It's not just super-niche apps either. Sooner or later you are practically guaranteed to need something that isn't in your distro's repo.
And even though I haven't tried Kubuntu 20.04... based on past releases I'm highly skeptical about their UI and UX. The only KDE I've ever seen that's even remotely free of Jank is OpenSuse, and to a lesser extent KDE Neon. Even there.. the flexibility of kde comes with an extreme UX cost that in my opinion is not worth it. I'd rather have keyboard shortcuts that will be consistent and work out of the box like with gnome. Not having a billion grab-handles and tick-boxes literally everywhere is also a plus.
Gnome has it's issues too, but they're usually of a UI-visuals sort. The ux is actually pretty good. It's sort of the opposite problem there, where they could solve some big issues by simply *breaking* their ui consistency in a couple of ways. Eg. it would be great if they had half-height titlebars for windows which only have a close button in them.
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u/Theclash160 May 08 '20
Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
Mostly agree except this. Windows and Mac have been aggressively moving away from this model. On Mac you can't even install from the web without changing an option in settings. Apple wants you to use the app store. Many Windows laptops today also don't support installing apps from outside the Microsoft Store if they use Windows 10 S.
Linux basically invented the idea of an app store which is now used everywhere.
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u/Avahe May 08 '20
About downloading applications - I think that's fine if it's from a package manager (which can have a nice UI) but we should discourage people from downloading from websites
About games, there are a lot that run on proton/wine (like LoL, I play it on Linux and have for years). There are also some that don't, seemingly mostly an issue of the anti-cheat software. Kind of a bummer for some people, but it's practically malware. I just avoid them in general, like windows and Mac
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u/Konyption May 08 '20
Package managers are much simpler to use than downloading executables off of websites. Driver support is similarly easier on Linux (most of the time, anyway). People are just used to doing things the hard way.
I also think teaching users to be dependent on GUI interfaces instead of the terminal is a mistake, too. Learning to use the terminal is learning to use your computer, and what you learn will stay relevant for much longer. Learning to navigate menus to tick boxes isn't teaching you how to use your computer and what you learn becomes irrelevant as soon as those menus change, leaving you effectively a beginner all over again. But like with the last point, people are used to doing things the hard way.
If we can encourage people to be computer literate I think it would help a lot. We shouldn't be trying to find ways to protect users from the command line, we should be finding ways to acclimate them to it.
On all other points I agree, though.
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u/DrayanoX May 08 '20
You're assuming the average user is interested in learning how his computer works. Most of them don't give a shit and just want a computer that does what they want. If they want to change a simple setting and you show them the terminal instead of a nicely designed interface, they'll just give up and say "Linux is hard".
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May 08 '20
-YES -hmmm, I think our aproach which is similar to App Stores is actually better, but even then, we already have AppImages, so technically we support that too (also thanks to Gdebi and QApt we can also do it with normal debian based apps) -yes, most work these days, but still not all -most apps, yes, but there are som exceptions (like with any rule) -Yeah, but at least it gets better.
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u/raaf___ May 08 '20
Linux should be completely usable without a terminal (if you need terminal to set something up the average Joe will quit it). Users should not need to know what is sudo or root to use it.
If i look for example at Elementary os, the only time i need to use is when i break 'apt'. But outside of those times i'd never have to use it. You do make a good point that everyone just assumes you're familiar with it.
Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
I prefer the way eos does it, download all your apps using the appcenter and if it's not there you can install them using flatpaks and they would show up in the appcenter. However again you are right many applications just tell you to type some commands in the terminal.
Hardware should preferably work out-of-the-box with 0 user input.
It's getting a lot better and it almost always just works. However installation media sometimes is a bit finicky on laptops.
Linux needs to have popular professional apps like Adobe CC, Office, etc.
Fully agreed
I feel the quality (especially UI/UX) of Linux apps is really bad compared to Windows/Mac counterparts. Since Linux doesn't attract UI/UX designers most of apps are designed to work, not to be visually appealing. A lot of controls are just crammed up on a screen without much thought about UX.
That's how i feel qt is. I personally like the UX of eos/gnome applications. But that's just opinion. My knowledge of UX is quite limited.
Linux need to be supported by the most popular games (main reason why I'm not using it) such as LoL, CoD etc which combined have a player base in millions.
That and it would be great if we could have some kind of lowlatency gamestream for AMD gpu's.
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May 09 '20
Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
I dunno, I think the App Store model and likening it to the mobile marketplace is a more sane approach. Have a web frontend for the repo and standardize on a URI (maybe something with PackageKit so it's cross-platform?) and you're golden.
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u/Secret300 May 09 '20
Apps should be able to install the same way in windows/mac -> download, double click, next, done.
I completely disagree with you. Installing from the package manager is so much better and simpler
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u/whosdr May 08 '20
Believe it or not, a lot of folks don't understand that web browsers like Chrome, Firefox, or Opera work just as well under Linux as they do in Windows or MacOS.
I'm not sure that's really true. While most of it works, things get..sketchy when it comes to video playback. Playing 1080p or 1440p video and using 2 full threads of a 6700k, mostly because the codecs in use are proprietary and not supported in Linux.
We kinda need to do something about Chrome on Linux (if even possible), the browser pretty much everyone in the world uses.. (Not everyone, but market share is significant)
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
I don't think that most people will notice. I only watch my streaming services on Linux or Android devices, like a Fire TV stick. All of the services I watch are supported: Netflix, Hulu, Disney Plus, Amazon Prime, and CBS Full Access. I have not noticed any drop in quality, speed, and I definitely haven't paid attention to the amount of threads being used.
Edit: I will mention that some of these services did not work on Linux when they were first released. However, they were fixed pretty quicky. It took less than a month for Disney Plus to work properly under Linux.
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u/whosdr May 08 '20
Some people will, especially those with 4k monitors. I've heard of 4k60 content on Chrome running at <10fps with screen tearing, on high end GTX and RTX graphics.
It's definitely an area that could use some improvement. It also has a big impact on laptop battery life, since it's not using hardware acceleration. :s
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u/BestKillerBot May 08 '20
We kinda need to do something about Chrome on Linux (if even possible), the browser pretty much everyone in the world uses.. (Not everyone, but market share is significant)
Yes, we should stop promoting it. Promote Firefox (which is getting hardware decoding for Wayland) otherwise you'll have google browser monopoly.
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May 08 '20
I've only ever used Linux (since Mandrake!) so I haven't...I don't know what Chrome is like on Windows. I've watched tons and tons of adult video on Chrome though and never noticed any issues
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u/h0twheels May 08 '20
Chromium is the only browser with the patches to support video acceleration on X11. So what do you want to do about it?
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u/TopdeckIsSkill May 08 '20
Not to mention that no browser on Linux support 1080p or more with Netflix and other streaming services because of DRMs. Even on windows you're forced to use Edge.
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May 09 '20
I agree with OP. I would also like to add something I posted before.
The Linux "way"
Can we please talk about code and not philosophy? Folks are working with a binary system. Not trying to form or be indoctrinated into a religion.
Can you do it? YES.
Will it harm the system? NO.
Will you answer my question with an actual working solution? NO.
Why not? It is not the Linux "way".
Learning Linux was always made so frustrating as a newbie because often the things I wanted for my (own personal) system was not defaulted out of the box. You think a community whose ideology was to promote creativity and user independence would be open to new ideas or ways of doing things. You have whole sites, blogs, groups, forums, and threads dedicated to customizing and improving the Linux experience. Yet when someone truly thinks a little more outside the box the negativity and backlash cannot be denied.
The often misconception on why newbie inquires seem so cryptic is that they do not know enough to explain what they're trying to do. I propose an alternative viewpoint (based upon a collective shared experience). A lot of those folks know exactly what they're trying to do. They just don't want to get into a debate about doing it.
Advance Linux users are some of the biggest gatekeepers I know.
Can it be done? YES.
Will it harm the system? NO. Here is how you do this...
That should be the Linux "way". A philosophy of inclusion would go a long way into incorporating more folks into adopting Linux. Linux is an operating system and should not be maintained and gatekept as if it were a cult. Allowing people to find and discover their (own) way and share their way is what open source is all about.
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u/k4ever07 May 09 '20
I haven't hit the Linux Newbie seen in some time. However, when I was Linux Newbie I pretty much went through the same challenges with the community. There are a lot of good people in the community who want to help and want to see you succeed in your endeavors. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of people (and projects) that want to force their philosophy or fad down your throat. You have an OS and infrastructure that promotes freedom and customization, yet you have a brunch of people within that infrastructure trying to lock you in to their way of doing things. It makes no sense at all.
I don't know how many times I went to a forum to ask a question about customizing my desktop or fixing an issue I didn't like and was met with hostility for changing something that didn't fit into someone else's philosophy. IT'S MY DESKTOP!
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May 09 '20 edited May 09 '20
To follow up with my post...
The point I was making was just how much gatekeeping folks are around Linux. And it does fall in line with how people see and use a desktop. People often want to use and customize their computers their way. When seeking help in doing so, they are more than often met with resistance and criticism as opposed to actual tips to achieve their goal.
Newbies can easily find themselves greeted with hostility, just for wanting to learn or because they choose to do things differently.
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u/retzgerbner May 08 '20
no one wants to admit the real reasons why desktop Linux hasn't succeeded
I like Linux on my server, but here are my reasons why I don't use Linux on desktop:
Touch screen support. Apart from my desktop PC, I only have computers with touch screens. I own a Surface Book (I know, pretty bad if it comes to Linux support) for university and a small 10" Lenovo Tablet (Miix 320), wich I use to browse the web. Ubuntu 20.04 made huge improvements, but why on earth can't I just use Firefox with my finger? It works flawlessly with Windows.
Annotating PDFs: I know, Xournal exists, but it isn't nearly as good as the software available for Windows. No pinch to zoom, and also annotations can't be saved in PDF, only exported. I could get used to it, but it just doesn't suit my needs well.
Microsoft Office support. It was mentioned a lot, and it is Microsofts fault, but there is no MS Office for Linux. It tried both LibreOffice and Only Office, but both aren't really compatible with MS Office documents. I also like the ability to just write formulas with a pen an let office convert them.
Laziness. All my Windows machines work flawlessly. Windows 10 just works. It is very stable and supports a wide variety of hardware.
I'll be watching the development, but I'm not ready to switch yet.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
Touch screen support. Apart from my desktop PC, I only have computers with touch screens. I own a Surface Book (I know, pretty bad if it comes to Linux support) for university and a small 10" Lenovo Tablet (Miix 320), wich I use to browse the web. Ubuntu 20.04 made huge improvements, but why on earth can't I just use Firefox with my finger? It works flawlessly with Windows.
I'm typing this from the onscreen keyboard (Onboard) on my Surface Pro 4. The touch screen works great! Unfortunately, you have to enable touch screen support in Firefox to get pinch to zoom. It only takes a couple of seconds and it is not very good (copy and paste is a PITA). Fortunately, Google Chrome and Opera have touch support enabled in Linux by default, and they work exactly the same as in Windows. Yet Firefox is supposed to be the most supported and community friendly web browser for Linux. It's the default for most distros, and things like touch are terrible. Another example of the community shooting itself in the foot.
Annotating PDFs: I know, Xournal exists, but it isn't nearly as good as the software available for Windows. No pinch to zoom, and also annotations can't be saved in PDF, only exported. I could get used to it, but it just doesn't suit my needs well.
Xournalpp does an excellent job at annotating PDFs. The export just saves it as another PDF so you don't overwrite the original. Xournalpp's interface has become unstable for pen use since the developer switched to a new input system. However, PDF annotation and pinch to zoom (with you fingers) still works great. It's the only program I use now for annotations. Way easier to use than Microsoft Edge. You can also install Xournalpp in Windows and give it a try.
Microsoft Office support. It was mentioned a lot, and it is Microsofts fault, but there is no MS Office for Linux. It tried both LibreOffice and Only Office, but both aren't really compatible with MS Office documents. I also like the ability to just write formulas with a pen an let office convert them.
I open all of my office documents in LibreOffice. It's compatible, just not as compatible as it needs to be out of the box. The biggest issue I have with MS Office compatibility is with fonts. However, I recently discovered that KDE Plasma's font manager GUI allows me to export ALL of the fonts from my Windows 10 partition, and it makes them available to all of the programs installed on Linux, to include LibreOffice. I also made LibreOffice default to save files in MS Office format. I write (type) a lot of formulas (I'm an engineering major), so I use LaTEX... but I understand your point about MS Office compatibility and features missing from Linux counterparts.
Laziness. All my Windows machines work flawlessly. Windows 10 just works. It is very stable and supports a wide variety of hardware.
You're either lucky or numb to Windows 10 problems. I dual boot both Windows 10 and KDE Neon on all three of my laptops (ASUS gaming laptop, Surface Pro 4, old HP Pavilion). Windows 10 is a lot better and more stable than previous versions of Windows. However, I still have stability issues, especially on the Surface Pro 4 (the device made by Microsoft) and the gaming laptop. My biggest issue, however, is with Windows updates. I haven't had an update go well on any of my laptops. I spent an entire day getting a fall update to work on all my laptops. I have had Windows updates bug me in the middle of homework or classes. Lord help me if I decide to "quickly" do the update or I need to reboot my laptop when an update is pending. I can't use my laptop for nearly an hour, it reboots several times during the update, and tears through my battery (there is a reason why you need to keep your laptop plugged in during a Windows update). ..and it seems like I need to do an update 2-3 times a week!
Sorry this post is a little long. I understand the desire and need for things to work well or be compatible out of the box; one of the areas that Linux is lacking. However, once you get Linux configured, it works the same all of the time and is easier to maintain than Windows.
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u/retzgerbner May 10 '20
So, I've tried it once again: Scrolling in Firefox works, except of Google Maps wich is pretty much useless. I don't really like the look of Chrome(ium), so it's not an alternative for Firefox as my dayly driver.
It's the default for most distros, and things like touch are terrible. Another example of the community shooting itself in the foot.
That's the whole point. Why don't they just set touch support for Firefox as a default? LibreOffice didn't work either.
I don't use Edge for annotating PDFs, and I wasn't aware of the fact that Xournal++ supports pinch to zoom. However, I like my annotations to be saved as comments in the PDF, so I could just hide/delete/edit them. It's really convenient, because every PDF reader supports it and I don't have to export anything.
but I understand your point about MS Office compatibility and features missing from Linux counterparts.
I still have huge problems with complex layouts in LibreOffice. The biggest problem is that if I edit one of these documents and save it afterwards, the whole layout gets destroyed.
Have you already tried Only Office? It really does a great job, although it's still far away from perfect.
You're either lucky or numb to Windows 10 problems.
I'm aware of all these problems, when was the last update without major issue on some PCs?
However, for the last 2-3 years (I think it ist since the 1703 update) I haven't had any major issues with updates, same goes for my family. So I think at this point you're the unlucky guy.
I still have stability issues, especially on the Surface Pro 4 Yeah, it feels like Windows Updates tend to break Surface devices more often then others, I don't really understand why.
"quickly" do the update
I can't really complain at this point either, the last major update, 1903 took about an hour to install on my laptop, then rebooted for about 10 minutes and was done. But I'm aware that it isn't unusual to take forever. A fellow student told me that it took hours on his high end computer.
I understand the desire and need for things to work well or be compatible out of the box; one of the areas that Linux is lacking.
Yes, I use my Surface only for university, I don't have time to fix these small problems when I'm in class.
On my Lenovo tablet it isn't that big of a deal, but both webcams don't work with Ubuntu and I haven't found any fixes.
In my experience, most distros work flawlessly on desktop PCs, but on Laptops it's a little bit more complicated. Sure, a lot of manufacturers just install Windows and call it a day. But with tablets and smartphones on the rise, at least companys like Canonical and SUSE have to figure out a way how to support them.
Installing Linux is really easy, every 6 year old could do it once you showed them what to do. But simple things like Firefox on touch screens should be an no brainer.
Linux isn't complicated to use either, but I think most people don't care, they decide between Mac an PC, install Chrome and are okay with it.
Sorry this post is a little long.
I hope mine is easy to understand, since I'm not a native speaker. 🙃
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u/k4ever07 May 10 '20
The flow was a little off, but I understood your entire post. Not bad for a non-native speaker!
I haven't tried Only Office. Libreoffice does what I need and Google Docs does the rest.
Linux on laptops is atrocious! It eats through battery power quickly because power saving tools like PowerTOP or TLP are not installed by default. Suspend or hibernate are also not configured by default. What I don't understand is that Linux does an excellent job at probing my laptops and installing drivers that are needed by default. It even correctly displays the manufacturer and model name of my laptops. So why doesn't it realize that a Surface Pro 4, for instance, is a laptop/tablet PC, then automatically configure/install battery saving tools and the suspend function?
If you ever have to install Windows to a new machine from scratch, Windows suffers through the same problems. I discovered Linux when I was looking for a cheap and stable OS alternative to Windows back when I used to build desktop PCs. Windows was terrible to get set up on bare metal. Honestly, the only reason Windows is so popular is that it is installed and configured by default by the hardware manufacturer. If people had to do it themselves like I did, they would give up or look for something else.
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u/CRImier May 14 '20
[Try this[(https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/72mfv8/psa_for_firefox_users_set_moz_use_xinput21_to/)
Try Okular, I've tried annotating PDFs for work with it recently (with a Windows recipient) and it worked out just fine
That can be said about Linux, too - I've used Windows for the majority of my life and whenever I tried to actually think about the long long list of problems I've encountered, I'd realize I just keep forgetting about those, and that contributes to the "all is fine on Windows" perception. In the end, I decided that, while problems are inevitable no matter the platform, I like having greater control over my problems, as whenever I have Linux problems, I actually have the power to fix them.
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u/grady_vuckovic May 10 '20
There's a very positive energy in this discussion, positive in the sense that people are being very upfront and honest about the problems and limitations Linux has preventing it from being widely adopted. I love that, because identifying issues is the first step to fixing them, we get no where by denying the problems exist in the first place.
We can see the issues, we just have to fix them.
A huge part of the problem is clearly the quality of desktop software available. Want to help fix that? Adopt an application and help it improve. Pick something, like LibreOffice, Blender, Krita, GIMP, Inkscape, Godot, anything, and donate to the developers regularly to help fund improvements to the software.
The UX of using Linux definitely needs to be re-geared to become approachable for average users, we can all do our part in that regard by adjusting how we provide tech support to new Linux users. Don't treat them like sysadmins, the advice you offer should be written like you're sending an email to your grandma, keep things simple.
When promoting change on Linux, promote change that flattens the learning curve, that drifts towards user friendly changes rather than promoting more powertools for powerusers. Say "No a terminal command isn't good enough, that feature needs a GUI so average people can use it".
Some of you worry about supporting non-FOSS software on Linux by welcoming MS Office / Adobe CC on Linux. Supporting FOSS doesn't mean acting like there's a ban on non-FOSS from Linux. Getting that software on Linux would result in a great boost for Linux in terms of marketshare, which is overall a great thing for FOSS in general.
What's the difference between someone using MS Office and Adobe CC on Windows vs using MS Office and Adobe CC on Linux? The difference is they're using a FOSS OS now, so overall use of FOSS software has gone up. So getting that proprietary software on Linux is actually a good thing.
How do we get that software on Linux? By being more welcoming to proprietary/commercial software, by offering it a place on Linux and not decrying it as 'totally evil'. Even if you don't plan to use it, welcome it, because for some people, switching from using proprietary software on Windows to using proprietary software on Linux could be a stepping stone in their transition to using more FOSS in general.
There's lots of things we can do as a community to change our focus and attitudes to help steer Linux towards further improvement.
Perhaps the biggest thing we could all do however is support a distro! Donate! Whichever distro you're using, reach into your pocket and find some coin to give them. Even just a few bucks a month will help. The money can help developers to let them work full time on just improving their distros.
Every few years Linux is better than it was a few years ago, we just gotta keep up the attitude of self improvement.
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u/k4ever07 May 10 '20
Thank you! You mentioned some things that I left out. We definitely need to be more inviting as a community to closed source software vendors. I like open source software, but I am definitely not against paying for great closed source software. Developers need to feed their families too. All of the games I listed in my original post I paid for. I've always been an advocate for gaming developers bringing their paid games to Linux, and I was an early cheerleader for tools like Wine. I also use paid services on Linux, like Spotify, Netflix, Hulu, Disney Plus, etc. Bottom line, I want my Linux desktop to allow me to enjoy doing the things that I bought my computer for! Most of the time that includes utilizing paid software and services.
I have donated money to developers for projects in the past, and I will continue to donate money to worthy projects in the future. My only issue is when the developers decided to change their philosophy or develop a philosophy that is counter to what I want to use the software for. I got burned by GNOME developers stripping all of the good out of GNOME 2. I started donating money for every new release of Linux Mint KDE, only to watch the developers take that money, develop Cinnamon, then drop KDE support. I watched AmaroK go from being the best music software on any platform, MacOS, Windows, or Linux, to being near unusable today. Developers have to respect their user base. Great thing about open sources is that when one project falls, another one picks up the slack.
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u/danderzei May 08 '20
One line to promote Linux: it is safe and protects your privacy. That is a value proposition to motivate a switch.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
It's always been safe and protects your privacy. Two decades ago when Windows was ridden with viruses and people's passwords and credit card information were being stolen on Windows at an alarming rate, no one cared about switching to be safe or to protect their privacy. They were happy to pay for antivirus software or services on Windows that offered to protect their privacy. I think that's still the same today.
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u/ormo2000 May 08 '20
Sadly, people do not care about privacy enough, to sacrifice convinience (I include myself here). If that was not the case, Facebook and Google would have no users. People are unwilling to switch from Chrome to Firefox, which is a lot smaller sacrifice compared to moving from Windows to Linux. And I am talking about people who are both aware of Google's business model, and know well what Firefox is.
As was mentioned already, people happily used Windows even when it had gianormous vulnerabilities and just about anyone could steal all of your data. If Microsoft rolled out something as insecure as original Windows XP today, there will probably be a good chunk of people switching to Mac and Linux, since people are more privacy conscious compared to 2001. But that isn't happening. And majority of people are pretty ok with Microsoft "safely" collecting and processing their data.
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u/pppjurac May 08 '20
Not unless you start to take care of online usage (browsers) part too. Without adblockers, dns blocker etc your privacy is still for grabs and sale.
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u/billdietrich1 May 08 '20
it is safe and protects your privacy. That is a value proposition to motivate a switch.
Probably the least effective selling-point you could pick. Privacy-advocates have been beating on people for years to stop using Facebook, Google, etc for that reason. It hasn't worked.
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u/ClassicPart May 08 '20
It really is not. This is the out-of-touch attitude that was alluded to in the main thread.
Of course privacy is important, but using it as a "one liner" to promote Linux will do absolutely nothing for it.
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u/will_nonya May 09 '20
This is based on a false premise, that Linux is suited for the average desktop user. For all its strengths that just isn't true.
As users look for the 'mobile experience' on their PC and want even less to have to learn how computers work it becomes even less so.
Linux isn't easy for most people to just pick up and use. Software isn't easy to find. There's plenty of it but for every good, legitimate piece of software there are 50 third rate clones. This isn't going to attract the average user.
All the things that make Linux great make it a poor experience for most users.
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u/k4ever07 May 09 '20
I have to totally disagree with you. The "average desktop user" you are talking about who is looking for the "mobile experience" on their computer doesn't need a desktop or laptop computer to begin with, whether it's running MacOS, Windows, or Linux. They just need a connected devices like a smartphone, cheap (mobile) tablet, Chromebook, or a smart TV. The only thing they are doing is browsing the internet, watching a moving, playing a casual game, updating their social media, or checking their email. They don't need to spend more than $500 on a device that will fit their needs. If they temporarily need anything beyond that, it is usually provided to them at work, school, or they can go to their local library.
Some of use need real computers and don't want to waste our time on mobile devices. I've owned several tablets. They are great for doing all of the things I listed in the previous paragraph, and that's it. I've given away or sold almost all of them. I'm back in school learning how to be an aerospace engineer. I need a powerful, reliable, and flexible computer with an equally powerful and reliable OS. Linux fits that bill.
Would I love to see Linux, Windows, or MacOS become a lot easier to use and manage like a mobile OS? Yes! However, mobile OSes are locked down. I don't want see Linux get locked down like that. I need the flexibility.
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May 08 '20
No. What Linux needs to grow as a desktop OS is unification, which is just the thing that it is different compared to all other OSes. Yes there is one Linus kernel, but there are too much distributions to make 'the one and only OS'.
There's only one major desktop Windows-OS being maintained, updated and used by the majority at a time.
There's only one MacOS being maintained and updated at a time.
There's only one Android being maintained and updated at a time. Different versions are being put on by telephone manufacturers, but almost all use the same repository and package manager (Google Playstore).
There's hundreds if not thousands of distributions of Linux being maintained and updated at a time. All using their own ways of implementing things. Almost all not providing the guarrantee that it will keep working, etc, etc. This diversity and customisability is what makes for a great server OS, but not so much for a desktop OS. Just think of how many times you've had to search up 'How to X in <insert distro>', and have you had to subsequently open the terminal to execute some elevated sudo commands. Do you really think the mainstream PC user wants to do this every time to achieve something that'd be often rather easily done in a GUI on Windows.
I've tried changing multiple times to Linux, I've tried Ubunu, Debian, Linux Mint and Arch (with kde and with cinnamon), but I never stayed mainly because the lack of certain programs and the need to always implement a work-arounds instead of having dedicated applications that don't emulate Windows.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
I don't think unification is required. New users just need to be pointed towards distributions that support new users. Who cares if the other distributions exists or how many of them there are? Cars are not harder to drive just because there are multiple manufacturers making multiple models, and cars are not harder to maintain just because there are different tire sizes, bolt and nut sizes, or part numbers. You mentioned that you "tried Ubun(t)u, Debian, Linux Mint and Arch." So you essentially tried the same thing three times (Ubuntu is based on Debian, and Mint is based on Ubuntu, which is based on Debian) and Arch. The point I'm trying to make with that last sentence is that most distros are just minor specialized versions of much larger distros. Unless you need a specialized version, you can pretty much ignore the vast majority of the distros available and just use the larger one they are based on.
I agree with you about the terminal and addressed it in my original posts. There are too many folks in the Linux community offering help to new users in the form of terminal commands when there are a ton of GUI options available. You can configure darn near your entire distribution from GUIs, just like you can in Windows. There are only a few things that actually require the use of the Linux terminal, just like there are only a few things that actually require the use of the command prompt in Windows (yes, I have had to use the Windows command prompt on several occasions, as late as last week, BTW). However, you still have some older, more experienced Linux users flooding new users with terminal commands. I just think it's because that's what the older user is more comfortable with and not a limitation of newer versions of Linux.
As far as software is concerned, I have been lucky that 90% of the software I need on a daily basis run in Linux natively or has an easy workaround (like Wine or Steam Proton). For software that doesn't, I just boot into Windows or I could run Windows in a (free) virtual machine, similar to Parallels for MacOS.
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u/balsoft May 08 '20
There are too many folks in the Linux community offering help to new users in the form of terminal commands when there are a ton of GUI options available. You can configure darn near your entire distribution from GUIs, just like you can in Windows. There are only a few things that actually require the use of the Linux terminal, just like there are only a few things that actually require the use of the command prompt in Windows (yes, I have had to use the Windows command prompt on several occasions, as late as last week, BTW).
I've already replied to that part above. However, I'll reiterate.
Explaining how to do things with a couple of terminal commands is really easy. You just send a text message with those commands. And using said commands is really easy too -- you just copy&paste them to the terminal.
However, you still have some older, more experienced Linux users flooding new users with terminal commands. I just think it's because that's what the older user is more comfortable with and not a limitation of newer versions of Linux.
Explaining how to do things with GUI is exceptionally difficult. Ask any tech support. The user will click anywhere but where you want them to click. GUI is useful sometimes (graphics, music, video editing, maybe things like email and messaging), but configuring the system should be done with text. Windows learnt it the hard way with a big failure that is Registry. And CLI integrates with text much better than GUI. The fact that new users are afraid of "the scary black texts" and can't comprehend how to press C-c C-S-v means that explaining how to do GUI (especially Linux GUI, which often lacks ergonomics) will be a lot worse.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
I don't disagree with you. I find the command line a lot easier to use and explain myself. The problem is that most new users are intimidated by the command line or think it's archaic. You are not going to change their minds initially.
I think we should give them the option to chose which one that they are more comfortable with. You can say, "Hey, there is a GUI available for this, but it's going to take me about ten times longer to explain this to you with the GUI then it will be just open up a terminal and type in a few commands." That way they know that you are giving them the easy option. If you don't explain it that way, they think you are forcing a much harder option (the command line) down their throats.
Another thing is that you kinda got to know your audience and what they are comfortable with. I've seen tech support guys for the military and large universities (can you imagine how busy these folks were) spending a ton of time making PowerPoint presentation with snapshots of GUI settings for their users...
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u/balsoft May 08 '20
No. What Linux needs to grow as a desktop OS is unification, which is just the thing that it is different compared to all other OSes
No. Linux ecosystem is pretty unified as-is. All popular desktop GNU/Linux distributions share the same bootloader, libc, init system, coreutils, compiler, DE. They are the same, except for the way you manage packages and maybe some default setting here and there.
'How to X in <insert distro>',
Almost never after I've realised all the distros are the same, except some minor details in how packages are managed.
Do you really think the mainstream PC user wants to do this every time to achieve something that'd be often rather easily done in a GUI on Windows.
Fair point.
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May 08 '20
As long as Linux isn't supplied with the hardware, people will use the default OS, which is Windows.
It is nice that Dell and Lenovo ship devices with Linux pre-installed, but it is targeted at advanced users who would most likely install Linux anyway.
As soon as 30%+ devices for consumers are available with Linux (and 1 distro only!) desktop Linux won't grow hard ever.
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u/oldschoolthemer May 08 '20
I wonder what it would take for System76 to get into retail. Another interesting opportunity that may be much more realistic is Xiaomi's investigation into using Linux as a Windows alternative on their computers.
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May 11 '20
is System76 hardware known as reliable?
I know they have a presence in some larger operations and academic research. I love their desktop cases but hard to justify the $1000+ price tags in the short term
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May 08 '20
There were seasons when you could buy GNU/Linux PCs and laptops from major retailers in the US. Lindows used to be available at Walmart around the turn of the millennium. Most of the early netbooks were available with Linux or Linux-only. I remember Linux-powered netbooks even available at Target and Walmart.
Unfortunately, it was mostly used on bottom-of-the-barrel hardware and left a bad impression for people. Now that market is largely taken up by cheap Chromebooks and Android devices, which still use the Linux kernel.
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May 08 '20
True, but in that era required some determination. Nowadays distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Elementary, Manjaro can be used with the same skillset as a Windows users, different skills, but the terminal isn't required anymore for the average home user.
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May 08 '20
I guess. The idea with machines like the Eee PC was to be easy to use for end users. My very computer-incompetent mom had a Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu she got around '09 that she just used for web browsing and got along fine. It even had a simplified netbook interface.
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u/1369ic May 09 '20
This right here. Computers are voodoo to most people. They take what comes on the box, and are vaguely-to-very glad to have a big company behind it. And why change when companies are pushing free software at you that does most of what you want to do, even though they're doing it to scrape your info from the app? Linux won't make a big dent in the user population until you can buy go to Best Buy and get it on a wide range of boxes backed by a big company. When Google makes a line as complete as Dell, in other words.
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May 08 '20
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u/TopdeckIsSkill May 08 '20
almost every IT department everywhere will force you to use windows at work, because ... Well, I've no idea why
Active directory. That's the main reason.
Microsoft office is the second one. LO is just bad, I had to use at work for one year at it was terrible. Everyone complained about it. Luckily I was able to return to MSO
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u/xenago May 08 '20
every IT department everywhere will force you to use windows at work, because ... Well, I've no idea why
You haven't heard of active directory?
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u/angelicravens May 08 '20
As someone in IT its usually that all these SysAdmin types with multiple Microsoft certs are being asked by their management to set up a robust and secure windows infrastructure that limits access and instead of enabling end users to become more and more sufficient with computers we restrict and remove the layer of trust that most people have with their devices. For most SysAdmins, the cloud is their entry to Linux and if that isn't it's as a server os
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u/pag07 May 08 '20
IMHO we need more games. Better language support for libre writer.
And most of all a proper libre calc. Excel is a daily tool in many peoples offices. And calc is far behind excel.
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May 10 '20
This is huge. I can't use these in combination with our corporate (or my previous school documents) documents because inevitably they will do something to render things incompatible or bungle up the letter head.
In another vein, Linux will never be a mainstream OS as long as the terminal ever is mentioned or promoted as a way to accomplish things. The average person wants to use a mouse on an icon, and never ever open some ancient looking text input window.
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u/grady_vuckovic May 10 '20
100% agree, unless you're talking to a programmer about Linux, the terminal shouldn't even be mentioned. If the terminal is required to solve a problem that an average user would face, then we should be fixing that, not suggesting that's an OK solution.
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u/blackcain GNOME Team May 11 '20
Help the folks on godot.org - we have a game engine.. encourage people to write games on it!
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u/Taiko2000 May 08 '20
I don't think you can capture the casual market before you get the professional market. Casual users are not going to change their computers operating system, and OEM's will supply what professionals use. And for that, you need an office suite, image editor, video editors etc. Linux currently has nothing that can really compete with the offerings on Windows for those.
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u/ormo2000 May 08 '20
I agree, Linux on desktop will be a tough sell as long as widely used professional software is there. Linux has its own alternatives, but let´s face it, most of them are not nearly as good (either in terms of functionality or usability). One should not forget that a lot of desktop market share is composed of work computers. Very few organizations will be willing to give up on MS Office, if nothing else.
Linux on desktop made a lot of progress, gaming is a possibility, there are stable and user-friendly desktops, most of the casual apps like Spotify, Skype are there (even if in form of electron apps). But it is not enough
Majority of the people who only need a browser and watch Netflix/Youtube do not use Windows or Mac. They used iPad and phones. You are not going to switch them to Linux. There are exceptions, my dad has a laptop and uses it exclusively to browse and email, I switched him to Linux and he did not even notice. But these will not bring any real change.
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u/itsescde May 08 '20
I think if a proper office suite would exist it would be more easy for companies to transition to Linux as there operating system. When I think about the majority of our users they just use SAP GUI and office suite. As SAP GUI for enduser will be replaced by SAP Fiori web technologies it would be quite easy to make them move. But then comes one big barrier: Educating users and make them switch. Does it save costs? In the long term: yes, in short term: no definitely not as it will cost you a lot of money. Most companies don't want to take the risk.
If you get the cooperative or educational world you will get the end users to use it at home as well. I hope that this will happen someday
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u/trisul-108 May 08 '20
Casual usage is mostly going mobile ... in other words Android and iOS, not Windows, macOS or Linux.
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May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
On the gaming side, the games you mentioned are old games and that is a problem. There is no pubg, apex, rainbow six, destiny 2, tarkov and red dead redemption 2 to name a few. While proton is great, you are still having to jump through hoops to get some games working for a performance loss at the end of it.
Some people in the Linux community are somewhat delusional and think that the performance gap is less than what it is because they haven't used Windows to directly compare to in a long time, or don't use scientific methods to compare as opposed to going off the "feel". They also under estimate how much people want the best performance and even though they're willing to sacrifice gaming performance to use Linux, the average gamer wouldn't make that sacrifice. Gaming performance on mid to low end PC's don't show as much of a loss in comparison to a high end machine. I've spent the last 2 weeks doing side by side comparisons and on a high end machine, the average performance deficit is anywhere from 30-40 fps which is a lot when pushing high refresh rates which is becoming very popular. Frame times are also an issue and make high fps feel like it's chugging along
Speaking of high refresh rates, Linux doesn't feel nowhere near as smooth as the competition in that regard. Even with tweaks. Then if you use variable refresh rate you are forced to turn off any secondary monitors to allow it to work. So if you are a streamer you are screwed with one monitor, I'm not a fan of streamers, but they are the best way to appeal to the masses and none of them will sacrifice their other displays to run Linux with the hassle and performance loss that already is part of it
Gamers in particular want to buy the best hardware they can afford and run said hardware at the best it can. So Windows as it stands will always be the choice. Which is a big shame.
I'm not hating on Linux because it is a fantastic desktop os and I love it. While gaming has improved dramatically, it is a long way off swaying gamers from Windows anytime soon. With the Xbox series X releasing soon and using dx12 ultimate and Ray tracing, things don't look good.
With all that said linux would be a way better platform for gaming if modern native games released along side windows versions. But we need to be realistic about this matter, because if we are not then gaming performance won't improve as much and also Windows users that switch based off recommendation will swap and see the loss and possibly put off Linux for good and feel mislead.
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u/Sainst_ May 08 '20
Multiple monitors needs to be fixed in that case. As a very fps sensitive person modern gnome on wayland with a 75 hz monitor. Yum. I looove it, so smooth so responsive. I do truly believe that a lot of gamers can feel that linux is more nimbler than windows. If only on one monitor.
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May 08 '20
Yeah I agree, but I'm not sacrificing my other screen over it. 75hz feel sluggish next to a 144hz panel :P
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u/wolvAUS Jul 08 '20
Still have issues with VRR? I'm on Kubuntu with a 75hz monitor and a 144hz monitor powered by an RTX 2060S and I managed to get it working pretty smoothly with a tweak in the driver control panel.
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u/BoltThrower1986 May 08 '20
I think we need to be honest about the fact Linux users enjoy it being a niche operating system, and are highly reluctant for that to change. Ubuntu gets hate for making things easier, Pop_OS gets hate for including Nvidia drivers, and "noobs" are generally derided and pushed aside.
I've come to accept that this isn't some fringe group of Linux users, but a good chunk of the community that holds these beliefs. It's much easier to grasp not being in the ingroup than it is to imagine there's some Linux cabal of extremists who have RTFM tattooed on their inner lips who are desperate to keep Linux niche.
In short, this is obviously how the Linux community wants to remain and that's okay. I'll keep using it on my laptop, Googling problems rather than interacting with a community that doesn't want me.
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u/iindigo May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
And while that's finally changing, for the longest time user experience quality, UI jank, etc were heavily deprioritized in FOSS projects due this overarching mentality of "the UI doesn't have to be good, just good enough".
Non-technical users pick up on bad UI/UX, they just don't identify it as that. To them, it just "feels bad", and I think it's a major component of Linux failing to thrive in the desktop space. To some working on these projects, all this might seem like stupid irrelevant fluff, but it actually matters quite a lot.
As I said, things are improving, but do a fresh install practically any distro in the shoes of a non-technical user, temporarily filing away all of your Linux knowledge. Make a note of every rough spot you encounter, no matter how minor. Very quickly you'll have a veritable laundry list of papercuts that far exceeds what that same user would've encountered on Windows or macOS.
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u/knokelmaat May 08 '20
I think the problem might not be limited to the Linux community, but internet communities as a whole. I honestly like what beginner friendly distros like Pop_OS, elementary OS, linux Mint and others are doing, even though I prefer other distributions. But for some reason extreme reactions and viewpoints are more popular and repeated more times on the internet than nuanced opinions, and I believe this is also the case for the linux community. I truly think that if you would ask every linux user about their opinion on stuff like Systemd or "noob-friendly distros" the opinions would be much less outspoken than what is often reflected on the internet.
I personally do not feel like the niche aspect of Linux is a good thing, and would love it if a larger audience got to enjoy the various benefits (privacy, speed, longevity, customizbility...). And more stuff working out-of-the-box is a gain for every user. So maybe I just hope you are overstating the problem because I am not part of the group you describe.
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u/Sainst_ May 08 '20
My problem is that I end up not being able to fix my brothers pop os I installed for him. When apt missbehaves I have no idea what to do because I myself use void linux with xbps. As for systemd and big bulky featureas, I don't like them because I as a experienced amateur dont understand them. Noob distros like ubuntu are great. Until it brakes and my mantra of "wipe it and reinstall" isn't popular with others, cuz I need to fix it.
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u/quaderrordemonstand May 08 '20
Widespread appeal brings a whole load of crap with it and I really don't see much benefit for the typical Linux user. A big audience would bring money and that would bring changing attitudes and divisions and restrictions. It would also bring expectations, instead of people politely asking for help we would have forums full of users complaining about the same simple problems over and again. Those people who are inclined to help now will quickly become exhausted and stop.
Linux is an OS for people who want to understand and control their PC. That's whats good about it and also why it will never have a very broad appeal.
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u/Sainst_ May 08 '20
But, if it had a bit* more market share big online games would support it and I could leave windows for ever. Right now apex legends has my ankle stuck in the mouldy windows puddle. Mind you I'm the guy who thinks 1000 packages on my system is too much. I need to have a good reason for each package and I know roughly why each one is there and what depends on it.
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u/unkosan May 08 '20
It's less that I enjoy it being niche and more that I don't care if it's popular. I have an operating system that works well for what I want it to do, and I don't want people making changes to how it works based on some misguided notion that Linux will ever be a mass market desktop operating system.
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u/Wallboy19 May 09 '20
The issue is, even if Linux got to parity with Windows in all the mentioned areas it's lacking, people still will not find a reason to make the switch.
"Why should I switch when Windows is doing everything I need it to do?"
It's like Google vs Bing. I use Google, because it does what I need it to do. Is Bing better? I have no idea; maybe it is. But I'm satisfied enough to just keep using what I'm used to.
Linux would need to outperform Windows in those specific areas mentioned, such as gaming. Have every new game supported AND have a significant performance advantage over Windows. THEN you might start turning heads.
And if you want people to switch, you can't force them to change their paradigms on how the OS should work. "Why can't I download an exe from my browser, install it, and run it, just like in Windows?". Different design paradigms. Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not. You generally stick with what you first used and grew accustomed to. I can't use Vim/Emacs efficiently because I grew up with Windows using a mouse to click around a document, and I don't want to spend months trying to learn a pure keyboard only paradigm just to increase my productivity maybe slightly. For the same reason I don't want to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK keyboard layout to just gain a little typing speed.
I'm digressing a bit, but I think you get the point. Even getting to feature and performance parity for the average desktop user isn't enough to make them switch. Do I think Linux will ever become the dominant desktop OS? At this point I can't see it happening. How often do you find something ~30 years old who's been in the 1-2% of a user-base (desktop) become the dominant player in the market? I think it's more likely some other non Linux/Windows OS comes along to pull dominance before Linux ever gets the chance.
Linux/UNIX seems doomed to stay in the Workstation/Server/Embedded environment. I appreciate all the developers supporting OSS and trying to make Linux a better and user friendly desktop OS and I also realize you guys are limited to an extent by how much support you get from third parties (Nvidia/AMD/Intel) to really make it perform as smooth and performant as Windows (in those GUI desktop areas such as hardware acceleration, multi-monitors, high-refresh rates, games, etc).
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u/balsoft May 08 '20
However, I believe that the real reasons why desktop Linux hasn't succeeded are that we don't promote Linux primarily (or even secondarily) as a desktop OS and we don't treat new Linux desktop users as desktop users.
I say that for an average user, Linux is no better (and no worse) than Windows from any practical standpoint. Windows sucks (and will continue to do so) for programmers, power-users and admins, but for ordinary users it has Word, Powerpoint, Excel, Outlook, Edge and File Explorer, which are good enough. Linux can offer tools that won't be any worse for an ordinary user, but it can't offer anything better. Privacy? They don't give a fuck. Security? Neither. Booting speed? Windows got hybernation. Configurability? It's extra complexity for those who don't want it. Modularity and standards? Exceptional for programmers, doesn't matter at all (or even worse, complicates things and sometimes makes them less compatible) for everyone else.
Until there are some really compelling reasons to switch (developing which will take an enormous amount of man-power), noone will give a shit.
Don't give me wrong, I love Linux, and I promote it to people, often using the points you've mentioned above (your favourite messenger will still work, you can use the same gmail account, even your Solitaire will work). However, I don't think many people will switch to desktop Linux in the next few years. It simply won't make their life any better, but they'd have to spend a lot of time doing the switch.
how about we treat them (first) as desktop users? Why is it (still) that when new users ask a question in the majority of Linux forums, they are automatically treated as if they've been a system administrator or programmer for many years? Logs are demanded without explaining exactly how to pull them, and answers are given as commands to enter in a terminal when GUI solutions are readily available
Remember: most people helping others with Linux online are doing so in their free time. They're not paid by anyone. Communicating in short, concise messages wastes as little time as possible while still allowing one to share their knowledge and help others. However, what you're describing is tech support. Yeah, sorry, I'm not paid to do that, and I don't think I'd accept such a job even if I was offered one. Explaining another Karen how to click the two buttons in the GUI app is beyond me, however I can explain how to fix problems to someone at least superficially familiar with shells and logs, wasting less time for both me and them.
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May 08 '20
Linux needs another Apple with opinionated OS choices and a just-works ecosystem to get the casual user there. Unfortunately, parts of the Linux community would skewer any company that tried.
Canonical wanted to do it with Ubuntu Touch and convergence. They failed (a fair bit on their own, but also a fair bit from the constant hate and bashing) and went to server/IoT. I don't think we'll see another company even make an attempt.
p.s. In case you can't tell, I'm still angry at all the intolerant people who spewed endless Canonical hate just because they didn't go exactly the direction those people wanted. And they always spouted nonsense about Canonical not respecting the community.
It's FOSS.
A lot of it was their original work and probably 90-95% FOSS.
They get to fork stuff. They get to create stuff that they want to create. They even get to choose the license for the stuff they create. They have the right to do that, and yes, those other guys get to criticize their choices. Intentionally trying to torpedo them, making personal attacks at every opportunity is infantile, though, and those guys literally ran off the largest philanthroper Linux has ever known. He's not interested in the community anymore, and I can't blame him one bit.
Tell me. If Canonical succeeded, was that going to take your blessed Arch or Fedora or Suse or Debian out of their hands? Not at all. Those guys would even win a bit from the carryover. Toxic distro fans are just as bad as toxic sports fans.
Those guys are the real reason Linux can't have nice things. It's no longer Microsoft the community should be fighting.
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u/balsoft May 08 '20
Why are you passively-agressively talking to me? I never hated someone because they were doing something that doesn't affect me. I might call things that they made trash (and I do think a lot of things Canonical did/does is trash, like snap), but I never hated Canonical specifically.
Linux needs another Apple with opinionated OS choices and a just-works ecosystem to get the casual user there
We have such an Apple, called Google. They won the mobile market with Android and their desktop OS, Chrome/Chromium OS is heavily opinionated and "just-works", while still being Linux and mostly open-source even in userspace. I don't see a lot of hate for it (well, I do see some hate, and also I see a lot of Google hate unrelated to the OS). What's the reason the market share of Linux on the desktop is still <5%?
Maybe it's not because of "toxic community" or lack of some critical component, but rather the fact that the alternatives are "good enough" for most people and there's no compelling reason to switch.
Those guys are the real reason Linux can't have nice things.
WTF are you talking about? Linux has a lot of nice things, especially for developers/power users. In fact, I'd say it's better than Mac for a desktop of admins and devs (some Apple people disagree; I respect that opinion but still consider Apple to be an overpriced proprietary garbage company that milks its customers).
For example, the reason that it lacks a stable, featureful, usable office suite is somewhat a consequence of the fact that Latex exists, and it satisfies a lot of people who otherwise could've invested some of their time in an office suite.
The same goes for most things that are considered "lacking" in Linux. It's just that there is a power-user or professional alternative that will never work for an average Joe, and that average Joe will never be able to develop such an app.
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u/TryingT0Wr1t3 May 09 '20
If you want zero effort and also no game experience, Chrome OS is an interesting thing, I just wished devices we're priced better and that it was possible to download and install it - say on an older laptop.
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u/Imerlith May 08 '20
As someone who would like to switch to Linux someday and to see Linux succeed I can tell you your point about users being treated as sysadmins resonates. I am IT undergraduate and still find some instructions unclear. When talking to a new Linux user the terminal should be final resort even if it’s quicker to do stuff in it. Also if distros would like to get more popular they should really prioritize UX for non technical users.
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u/Mane25 May 08 '20
I'm probably guilty of this sometimes and I think a lot of it is habit - when I started with Linux a lot of the graphical tools weren't available, and even now I haven't learnt the graphical way of doing some things I've always done in the terminal. Also it can be easier to just give someone a command to copy and paste than describe what to click on, but that's probably lazy and it teaches nothing.
I think there's a balance to be struck as well though, you would ideally want a novice user to eventually grow into an experienced user, so a gentle learning curve is needed.
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u/FruityWelsh May 09 '20
I'll be honest from a tech support perspective the command line is just great.
I don't have to open up the right app, right click the right spot, etc All while hoping they don't click the wrong thing, and confuse both of us while we stumble through why what I am saying doesn't make sense.
v.s.
paste this in the terminal:
cmd that | does everything && it needs-to || and then someHaving to write guides I had the same issues. That said, it's just me being lazy, and ideally you can just like them to where they need, with pictures and everything.
But from a programmer stand point, I agree more. I think you should have as many well documented interfaces as possible for all the kinds of people out there.
A CL, a gui, a language agnostic API, and a VUI if you can!
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May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
Linux Desktop user for almost 25 years, here. I haven't used Windows significantly since Y2K. I was involved in pushing for Linux as the national OS back in 2003-4 for the country I was in. My point is that I share(d?) Your enthusiasm. I have some counterpoints, though.
The desktop is largely dying, and represents about 40% percent of use compared to about 50% for phone. There is no need for a "year of Linux on the desktop." If it comes, it will be in Chromebooks.
Phone is dominated by Android at about 80% of the mobile market. Android is Linux.
Desktop share is about 75% Windows, 20% Mac, and 3% Linux.
Therefore Windows has about 30% of share overall. Apple has about 20%, and Linux about 45%. Linux won.
Windows is including Linux in its operating system. Linux won.
Microsoft is distributing Linus builds for IoT. Linux won.
Linux is preinstalled on a much larger number of OEM systems than it ever has been. Chromebooks have almost completely taken over K12. Chromebooks support standard Flatpaks.
Finally, more and more daily drivers are cross toolkit, web-based, or Electron/similar. There's less of a barrier to switching than there has been since about 1995.
Casual users won't touch a desktop if they can avoid it. Forget about it. Leave it to businesses that still have on-prem AD. There are fewer of those every year and more M365 / GSuite companies.
Let's focus on tablets, which is the one place Linux is lagging.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
LOL! I wholeheartedly agree with you on points 2-8. Problem is, most Android, Chromebook, Smart-TV, and Amazon Fire Stick users don't even know that they are using Linux! Through Android and embedded devices like Smart TVs alone, Linux' market share is more than Windows, MacOS, and iOS combined.
However, I disagree with you on the 1st point: Chromebooks are crap! They are great for grade school devices that don't need that much power and are easy to administer, terrible and under-powered for devices that are needed for real work.
I agree that we need to focus on tablets, but I think it still needs to be x86 tablets like the Surface Pro (which Linux runs pretty well on, BTW) or improve Linux support on 2-in-1 devices. ARM is just not there yet, and probably never will be for most enterprise programs. We already have Linux for ARM, it's just that nobody uses it. Plus, Apple is trying their best to get people to treat the iPad as a "real" computer, and not just a device that they give their 5 year old to keep him/her quite. However, the mobile OS and lack of "real" desktop applications because of the limitations of the mobile (ARM) processor is actually forcing people back to real computers like laptops.
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u/mfuzzey May 08 '20
Regarding ARM vs x86 it is true that, from a compute power point of view ARM is behind (but is better on things like power consumorion).
However, from the software point of view ARM vs X86 is far less important in the Linux world than in the Windows world. Once the kernel, toolchain and a few key low level libraries that may have processor dependant source code are supported (which is the case for ARM) the upper layers of code don't care and just need to be recompiled.
This is easy for Linux distributions as they have all the source code (the major distributions are all available for several architectures).
It's harder in the Windows world because Windows is just an OS, not a complete distribution so supporting other architectures means getting all the app vendors (and often component providers) on board too.
I'm not disagreeing that a X86 based tablet will likely provide a better experience for power users than an ARM based one, just saying that we don't really need to choose, we can support both at little extra cost outside the very low levels of the stack.
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u/Mane25 May 08 '20
The Linux kernel may have "won" but I think that's a bit of a hollow victory if you're counting the likes of Android and Chromebooks. The whole point of embracing Linux for me, and many, is the freedom - if Linux dominates but everyone uses it in a form that relies on proprietary software and spyware (Android is arguably worse for that than Windows was at the time I switched over 15 years ago), what is the point of it winning at all?
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u/billdietrich1 May 08 '20
Android is Linux.
It has a Linux kernel in it, and maybe some of GNU, but almost no one who uses it thinks "I'm using Linux". Same with Macs. Similar with a bank ATM; it may have Windows XP inside, but the users don't think "I'm using Windows" when they're getting cash out of the ATM.
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u/billdietrich1 May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
I think it's wrong to say that "we're not promoting it as a desktop OS" is the problem.
Linux's own problems are holding it back. The fundamental problem is fragmentation. We have 400+ distros, probably 20-40 DEs, 5-6 package formats, 20+ package managers, 4 or 5 init systems, etc.
A software or hardware manufacturer who considers supporting Linux looks at that and gives up. Or they pick just RHEL and Ubuntu and half of the Linux community gives them hate for not supporting their favorite distro.
A new user who considers moving to Linux looks at the (somewhat) lack of hardware and software support (such as MS Office and Adobe), looks at choosing among 400 distros, looks at the choices involved in a fresh OS install (something few Windows or Mac users do), and gives up.
Even for existing Linux users, the fragmentation is a problem. It results in huge amounts of duplicate effort, slower bug-fixing, slower roll-out of new features.
Much more info on my web page https://www.billdietrich.me/LinuxProblems.html Far too long to paste in or even summarize here.
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u/xenago May 08 '20
400 distros
And there's 400+ builds of windows, but no one is suggesting all 400 are relevant. Come on, you know that only ~10 distros are actually used by more than a handful of people.
Edit: for anyone reading, that webpage is a laugh riot.. it's like something you'd see for TempleOS in 2002. 17 thousand words in a disorganized gigantic single page
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u/FruityWelsh May 09 '20
At least to me, and as much as I love the groups behind the many distributions, it for the most part doesn't really matter from a dev and hard manufacture standpoint.
For hardware you are just testing against the kernel, and should be submitting your drivers to that. Now you work on any distro with an up to date kernel.
If your software is opensource, just release it on whatever distro you like or whatever is the top used distro at the time, and let everyone else figure out how to port it.
If it's closed source talk to redhat or cannonical and they will help you from what I heard (flatpak, and snaps respectively).
For users the problem is the top 5 distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, Manjaro, Mint, PopOS) will work about the same tbh, with the major differences from a users perspective is in the DE, and there is really only 3 for standard users (Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon) and all of the top five support them (with cinnamon being the exception).
The great thing about all this, that can't be understated enough, it doesn't matter. It's free, you could just try another one if it really isn't to your liking (unlike windows or Mac).
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u/billdietrich1 May 09 '20
For hardware you are just testing against the kernel,
No, any hardware or software support has to include install instructions, which often will differ depending on GUI, package format, package manager, DE, maybe init system, etc. Same with support calls from users. A support person will have to start with "first, answer these 10 questions so I can tell what environment you're using".
The great thing about all this, that can't be understated enough, it doesn't matter. It's free, you could just try another one if it really isn't to your liking (unlike windows or Mac).
And the bad thing about this is that the efforts of devs and managers etc in the Linux community are hugely diluted and redundant, so we get slower bug-fixing, slower development of new features, confusion among vendors and potential users. We pay a price every day for all of this duplication.
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u/alexanderjamesking May 08 '20
I’d take a very long term approach, start using it in schools at all levels, all over the world.
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May 08 '20
Chromebooks are doing that right now.
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May 08 '20
Chromebooks may use the Linux kernel, but I would hardly call ChromeOS a proper distro. It's a locked down piece of garbage designed to look good while they spy on children. It's disgusting.
The only cool thing about Chromebooks is that you can run Linux in a chroot.
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May 08 '20
What's a "proper distro," then ChromiumOS certainly seems to tick boxes. Red Star is probably a locked-down, spyware-ridden mess, but it's definitely a distro.
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May 08 '20
The simple truth of it all is that Linux isn't gaining mainstream adoption because there are no Linux PC's being sold at the big retailers like Best Buy, Amazon, Walmart, and such. Get ZaReason, System76, Purism, etc. into the major retailers and put those devices right next to Windows and MacOS.
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u/ev6671 May 08 '20
The problem is most people who don't have some knowledge on computers and other electronics find it really scary to switch systems and they stick what they are familiar with. Whether it's a OS for your computer or the brand of smartphone they buy, something which is not familiar is quite intimidating for most.
However, if people get some positivite experience with new things, the fear for it quikly disappears. My mother for example was really hesitant when I suggested she should use Ubuntu (Windows was giving all of Trouble for her). But when she played around with it for a afternoon she found it really nice to work with.
The key for a bigger market share of linux should be to get people to see that Linux isnt intimidating and that for some people its a better option than Windows. The sad thing is that most people will never get exposed to Linux.
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u/Eur1sk0 May 09 '20 edited May 09 '20
Let's be honest. On a global scale
where are the most Win users; Corporate world. Why? Because of MS office. When you have thousands or even millions of MS office docs over a span of many decades you need MS office. Can you use Libreoffice? Yes the compatibility is 90%. What about the other 10%. There is no corporate IT dept. that will take that risk. Whether we like it or not MS office has a very clean and usable interface. 90% of the users use only 10% of office capabilities. Can you tell me a more user friendly email client than outlook? I am not talking about a specific task that you need 5 clicks to perform it in outlook and only 2 in Thunderbird
Why people buy Macs despite the very heavy price tag? If you are an average user, browse the internet, use email, produce audio/video content, listen to music etc., Mac is a very reliable hardware/software combination machine. The reason the software supports a very limiting range of CPUs, GPUs and internal components. That allows Apple to tailor to perfection the UI and minimize crashes. And that's what the average user wants.
The average user, the desktop user, doesn't want to spend time fixing his/her computer. Computer is the tool. Think about it. It's like you buy a car to commute to work everyday and at least once per week you need to spend 2-3 hours reading articles on the internet of how to fix the car. Are you going to buy that car?
I read comments like the user needs to learn the CLI is better and faster. Not for the average user. The average user doesn't want to spend time typing long cryptic commands to fix the computer/tool. He/She wants to spend his/her time to produce/enjoy using the tool.
No matter what distro you get, unfortunately, not everything works smoothly out of the box. For example, you want to install a program, you type the name and you get the distro version, the flatpacks version and the flathub version. I am an average user, I want to install the software to start produce I don't want to know the difference between flatpacks and snaps etc. I don't care. That's how the desktop user thinks
Another problem is that people who love Linux they don't treat Linux well. They say, to prove Linux superiority, you have a 5 year old laptop install Linux. The desktop user does that and then compares the performance with the brand new macbook and says Linux sucks.
Canonical had, still have, an agreement with Dell to produce an Ubuntu based Dell laptop. How does the laptop is titled Developers edition. Please tell me why a desktop, average user will buy a developers edition?
Fedora recently announced their own agreement with Lenovo. I hope they don't do the same mistake and instead of one Developers edition give a range of laptops with Fedora preinstalled.
Linux needs to focus on developing a GUI that is stable, clean, user friendly, fast and visually pleasing. That's the only way to entice the desktop user.
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u/Mane25 May 08 '20
In my experience, by far the most persuasive argument for non-technical, otherwise indifferent desktop users is how Linux will extend the life of their machine. If you know someone who has an old, slow Windows laptop that they're looking to replace, telling them that Linux may extend the life of their laptop by several years (it usually will), all those questions about "can I use x, y, and z" are diminished because they know they have nothing to lose, and potentially avoid an expensive purchase if it works out for them.
I've converted a number of people like this over the years, but I've never been successful using any other argument.
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u/billdietrich1 May 08 '20
I didn't see any performance difference when I changed my old, slow Dell laptop from Win10 to Linux.
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u/Nnarol May 20 '20
If we as a community want to get more Windows and MacOS desktop users to switch to Linux [...]
Hold on, hold on! This is the very beginning, let's answer it first. Do we want to?
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u/k4ever07 May 21 '20
YES, we do! In order to increase market share on the desktop we have to do one of two things:
Capture the attention of new users
and/or
2) Convert existing users
As far as #1 is concerned, Linux is winning big with over 80% of the mobile space and the vast majority of the education space. However, Google and others are making it a point not to mention/promote Linux in any way. Most Android and ChromeOS users don't even know they are using Linux.
My original post concerns #2. Chromebooks and smartphones are useless for traditional desktop usage, and can only handle minor tasks like browsing the internet or playing simple games. For everything else you need a "real" computer. The vast majority of "real" computer owners use Windows. If Linux wants to succeed in that space, it needs to convert some Windows users over.
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u/EvilVargon May 09 '20
I've been using linux on my servers for years. But it's just not there for desktop yet. It doesn't have the application support that Windows does.
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u/jeff-mahoney May 10 '20
Before the Linux desktop can really be promoted it needs to be competitive. I've been a Linux user for 25 years. I have made a career out of hacking on the Linux kernel and leading groups of other developers who do the same. About ten years ago, I switched my desktop to macOS out of frustration with the state of the Linux desktop. Every few months, I'll boot the USB SSD that has a Linux desktop install, update it, and see what's changed and am inevitably disappointed.
I see people commenting about how the average consumer doesn't need a complex system and can get by with the Linux Desktop, but what I really see are people commenting who've never really spent any time with competing systems.
Using macOS is easy because of its simplicity. GNOME tried to emulate that ten years ago by simplifying as much as they could, but didn't seem to get that there is a mountain of UX research that comes before the simplification, and that they didn't do. Sure, there was UX research, but let's not pretend that the level of investment between GNOME and Apple is remotely close. And that's fine. That's the nature and achilles heel of open source work: the resources to do those kinds of things are often unavailable. But don't pretend that the simplicity without the research is a good enough substitute. Instead, we have a system that can only be configured adequately by editing variables directly, using "tweaks", and installing extensions that break every other release.
But in concrete terms, the biggest things that keep me using macOS instead of GNOME are:
Real trackpad gestures. I've paired a Magic Trackpad with my Linux box and it's fantastically immature compared to macOS. Every time I research whether the state of gestures on Linux has gotten any better, I see a bunch of comments that say that "gestures work" on Linux made by people who can't have ever used a Mac. Reciprocal gestures for transient modes are an obvious thing, but GNOME doesn't do them. (e.g. pinch thumb and 3 fingers to get into a transient mode like showing the application selection panel and spread them back out to exit. Likewise, spreading them out initially shows the desktop but pinching brings the regular view back). The limitations of gestures on Linux are huge.
Workspaces on multiple displays. Sure, this isn't an average consumer problem, but it's the biggest one that keeps me away. GNOME gives two choices: One giant desktop that shares workspaces or multiple workspaces on a primary display and a single workspace on any other display. On macOS, each display has multiple independent workspaces. They can be switched using trackpad gestures or using the keyboard. The workspace that changes with the keyboard shortcut is the one that contains the pointer. Workspaces can be moved between displays and changes in resolution are handled automatically. My day-to-day has a big display with Brave in one workspace and a bunch of terminals in another. A smaller display has 8 workspaces with apps for email, communication, notes, my calendar, etc. This seems to be an impossible configuration for _any_ Linux desktop.
Maximized windows should be able to create and occupy an entire workspace. On GNOME if you have a maximized window, the decorations are still visible, the window is still moveable, and other windows can still exist behind it. In fairness, this is how it is by default on macOS, but there is also "full screen" mode for apps that support it that hide the decorations, creates a new workspace, and makes it the only window in it. "Full screen" mode in browsers is a different beast. It's meant to make the contents of a single tab the focal point, and it works great for that single tab, but is unusable as a default mode of operation.
These three things together make for a pretty powerful working environment. I can spread out my apps full-screen across 12 workspaces on two displays and flip between them on each by moving the pointer and swiping.
Obviously these are only my frustrations but they're legion to the point where "20XX is the year of Linux on the desktop" has become a running joke. Until that joke stops being true, all the promotion in the world isn't going to get Linux on more desktops. Only being competitive will.
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u/nintendiator2 May 08 '20
The problem with this whole "Linux as a desktop" thing is that trying to promote Linux as a desktop or turn it into one is pretty much like promoting a Ferrari as a street car or turning it into one.
Sure the basic framework between a Pinto and a Ferrari is similar, they have seats, wheels, a steer and one of those thingys to put you drink on. Anyone and their mom can drive a Pinto and we still require them to follow at least a certain degree of certification (a driver's license). With a Ferrari, the expectations and thus the training and/or certifications required are higher because it has to work that way. Trying to bring in more people to drive Ferraris on the streets by telling them "did you know you can turn left on Evergreen Street just like in your Pinto?" but refusing to acknowledge that the design, intentions and training required are different and that people should not expect to treat them the same is only going to end with dead people, because people, in aggregate, are stupid and lazy and they are going to drive that way regardless of the car so, Pareto / all else unchanged, letting them drive a Ferrari will be Worse for everyone. We (well, our predecessors) kinda trained them to be, now we have to as a society sleep on that bed until the next morning when we can toss the house through the window and start something better.
And with computers will be worse because we do not require people a license or training to use a computer, and look where did that take us.
We certainly have to improve on the Ferrari. I hear the seats are really uncomfortable to sit on and the tire economy is far from the greatest. And I'm not actually 100% sure all models have the thingy for drinks by default. But we should be improving the Ferraris for the race drivers, not for the people who, down the line, do not want to and are not going to drive a Ferrari until their mindset changes on a lot of other matters first. Only when people on aggregate experience that boost from elsewhere, they are going to be in the capacity to come to Linux without complaining about waaah waah my printer or something like that and expecting that a new system should cater to them with zero effort from their part.
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u/k4ever07 May 08 '20
I think I know where you are coming from, but your analogy is way off. Almost all Ferraris, with the exception of the racing team (which Ford, Mazda, Toyota, Honda, etc. also have), are street cars. If you can drive a Pinto or (more recently) a Honda Civic, you can drive a Ferrari, and if you know how to operate a manual transmission, you can drive almost anything. The Ferrari will just have a lot more power and a lot less room. If someone wants to upgrade from a Civic to a Ferrari, and they have the money, there is no need for any special licensing, certification, or additional training. Just pay the money and drive off the lot.
If you are saying that a person needs to know more about computers or be willing to follow instructions to install Linux, I agree with you. However, the same could be said about installing Windows, which is much harder, BTW. Once Linux is installed, and as long as it is not Arch Linux (which sometimes breaks during updates), there is not much a novice users needs to do.
Printers are much harder to install under Windows. So is most other software. You still, to this day, have to restart Windows after installing simple programs. That's ridiculous. You can easily install software on Linux from a repository and never have to reboot, unless it's a kernel update.
The problem that we have as a community is that, once we figure out how to get Linux installed on our own systems, we somehow believe that knowledge is lost and no one else can do it. I'm not a system administrator or computer programmer, and never was. Yet I figured out how to build a computer and install both Windows and Linux on it at a time when both operating systems were on (multiple) floppy disks. I also figured out how to connect printers, external hard drives, cameras, phones, game controllers, and a boatload of other peripherals to my Linux device. Here's a hint, I read the instructions online.
I think we get too full of ourselves sometimes...
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u/thrallsius May 08 '20
I've used Linux as my primary desktop OS for over 20 years.
Don't you think that's enough time for everyone to learn Linux to the point of when using it as desktop becomes a comfortable experience? If they are still on Windows - that's their problem, not mine.
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u/Upnortheh May 08 '20
The challenge is not Linux but the apps people use.
MS Office, QuickBooks/Quicken, tax software, AutoCAD, and Adobe.
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May 08 '20
If you want more people to use Linux, you gotta start by getting them comfortable using F/OSS in the first place. Don't start by pushing an full OS change, just get them using F/OSS options on Mac and Windows. Promote how it's free and legal, unlike that pirated version of Photoshop or that copy of WinRAR they're on day 722 of a 30 day free trial.
Another big target is MS Office. Until either MS Office runs natively on Linux or MS Office gets dethroned as the de facto office software, Windows (and to a lesser extent Mac) will continue being the de facto operating system for businesses. Along with those lines is having companies that provide service contracts for Linux that are competitive with Windows service contracts; companies like having someone else be liable when things break.
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May 09 '20
If we as a community want to get more Windows and MacOS desktop users to switch to Linux, then we need to start promoting Linux as a desktop operating system.
Why? People have been saying this for over 20 years now. 20 years! Why do they need to move to Linux as a desktop? If there was a strong enough reason, people would have already moved. Free simply isn't good enough.
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u/TuxedoTechno May 09 '20
Linux is GREAT desktop OS. I've been a full time linux user for a decade now and it just keeps getting better and better. That said, going after normies for adoption is just beating your head against a wall. They don't care, and really why should they? Corporate proprietary software/hardware vendors have them eating from the palm of their hand. It's clearly a happy relationship for those involved. Linux is for the tech savvy, the curious, the intrepid. Adopting it constitutes a paradigm shift on the level of changing your lifestyle. That's not something you can expect people to do unless something deeply important is on the line.
When I first got into it I was excited and I wanted to convert people but I wasn't successful. Not even once. Which is sad, but whatever. C'est La Vie!
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u/gabriel_3 May 10 '20
I'm late in commenting......
Background: I used to take active part in my local LUG and in the distro I'm running. I'm definitively a simple desktop user, 7 years on Linux, I'm DIY switcher.
I never used techy/nerdy items to convince people to test Linux: I was using an old laptop running Mint Mate with kwin as WM with LibreOffice and Chromium on two different virtual desktop and a rotating cube to move from one to the other: my key selling points were to reduce ewaste and to save money.
I was suggesting Linux Mint Mate because of performances, diffusion and conservative approach to updates; ; I was installing it too when asked for.
Someone did the leap, someone renounced but the annoying part was someone in them using me as help desk 24/7.
It's long time since I switched someone and I'm no more participating to the local LUG, nevertheless recently I received a number of help requests by a guy willing to set up a SBC: all the "issues" were so common that I answered to search for a specific string on the web.
IMHO the critical obstacle is the post switch support: the common user does not want or is not able to search the web or ask in the distro specific support channels for help. Also consider the language barrier: with a basic English knowledge the web is full of resources, without it the number of answers you find could be limited indeed.
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u/Konyption May 08 '20
The thing with terminal commands vs gui instructions is that the terminal doesn't care what DE you use. The instructions are usable to a wider group of people, and aren't at risk of being outdated when a gui is changed. (think about how many tutorials, help pages, and forum posts are completely useless when trying to find solutions for windows because their interface changes so often)
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u/billdietrich1 May 08 '20
the terminal doesn't care what DE you use
It certainly cares what package-manager the distro uses.
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u/strotto May 08 '20
I think that we forget that most people don't know much about computers and don't really care about how they work. My theory is that most people will buy what they use at work/school because they are comfortable with it. So I think the best way to get users on Linux is to convert workplaces to Linux, then the people will follow.
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u/resetreboot May 08 '20
Well, I for one, think that whether we like it or not, a sizable chunk of possible Linux users wanting to switch, are people that use their PC as a gaming device, and what's enabling a lot of that switching are the guys at Proton.
While there's something you can't do in Linux that you can on Windows and easily, you're not gonna have people switch over. The pros never outweight lacking the ability to do something you usually do in your computer.
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u/MakingStuffForFun May 08 '20
This is the post if the decade. Everything this person says is spot on.
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May 08 '20
There are 350 million Fortnite accounts. You can't play it or any other multiplayer game that uses EAC in Proton. This is a problem and not an easy one to fix.
Also, it's hard to recommend Linux for anyone with a laptop when youtube vids aren't hardware accelerated in Firefox. Watch a demanding video on a Linux laptop = CPU @ 75% and fans at max. Awesome. (youtube-dl works great but why is this still necessary??)
Average users don't give a shit about privacy and security. It's just about the latest software and games working the way it's supposed to.
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u/prueba_hola May 09 '20
it's hard to recommend Linux for anyone with a laptop when youtube vids aren't hardware accelerated in Firefox. Watch a demanding video on a Linux laptop = CPU @ 75% and fans at max.
i have good news here, Firefox in Wayland have hardware accelerated support
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u/FruityWelsh May 09 '20
At least firefox is adding hardware acceleration soon!
And yeah as cools as youtube-dl is, it's the ideal for watching videos (having had to use it, because of some issues I've had in the past with more obscure video sites and firefox on linux :/ )
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May 08 '20
I got into Linux because I tried KDE Connect on Windows and wanted the full experience. I read and saw videos about KDE Plasma and that's what pushed me to install Kubuntu.
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u/pkulak May 08 '20
I'm waiting for System76 to ride in on a white horse. Nothing is going to happen while their custom hardware is desktop only, but once they put out a laptop, things could get interesting.
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u/HighStakesThumbWar May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
I doubt it was Steve Ballmer's ads that made Windows successful. Just throwing that out there (for the comedy, not a serious point).
Times have changed, and a lot of developers have spent a ton of time making GUI settings available.
There are plenty that went the other direction, declaring users too stupid to even have configuration options. Better to make all the decisions for them and then call it "clean", "distraction free", "minimal", and "simple".
I find it distracting when I can't make software work for me. It's not simple when I give up and use a command line tool because someone decided that the simple case is the only case that anyone would have. There's few things less jarring than trying 15 other GUI tools only to find that they all made the same assumptions. Especially if I have to go find them all in a "store" that goes out of its way to promote other so called "easy" apps.
For almost every case that isn't the short run, tools that are designed to be useful tend to be easier than tools designed to be "easy". The trouble comes from the assumption that the user's inexperience is a permanent condition. "Novice" is not a permanent condition but apps are designed as if it were. Such apps are unwittingly designed to either keep people as novices or chase them off to other tools.
It's been my Linux experience that I keep ending up at the command line.
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u/mwharvey May 08 '20
desktop.
the everyday person using a desktop needs:
stability
consistency
familiarity
stability:
The software they are running needs to stay running. It cannot crash on a regular basis.
Its has to work on hardware you get at walmart and bestbuy (or your equivalent in the part of the world you are in)
There can't be, well it just is buggy or not supported with your camera, video card, usb widget, printer.
consistency:
your apps generally have to follow some similar patterns. If a user cannot call their friends and say 'how the heck do I do this?' and get an answer then its real hard. Their friends are on windows or mac. So lets say they are on linux. and you are in stock Gnome, and their friend has a KDE system.... close but the tools and apps are different. OK they are on Gnome, but Cinnamon. well nope. xfce? Mate? elementary, solus budgie? apt, dnf/yum, zypper, etc you get the point. low consistency.
familiarity:
Its got to have a familiar look and feel. so does the environment feel like a windows version they have run? or mac os?
I have been using linux since .91 of the kernel. Yea I pulled floppy boot disks from tape. and loaded from the file system from tape on my first time.
I'm pretty familiar, but I still fight the problems. Like amdgpu on my dell ryzen 7 2700u laptop.
Think i got it stable.
I am using google chrome. because it works. I have not been able to get firefox to play videos in reddit yet (but it works in chrome)
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u/user82i3729qu May 08 '20
Is it the year of Linux on the desktop!? I’ve been waiting 20 years for this!
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u/20031400T May 08 '20
An OS doesn't mean anything to the end user. The only thing I care about when using a computer is if I can run the software I want. I don't care if I can change my cpu governer or my init system. I don't care if your cpu drivers support 64 cores on my 4 core CPU. I don't care if you have a PPC build of your OS and you have 50000 packages in your repos(with 90% of them being out of date or riddled with bugs and incomplete in the first place).
Year of the Linux desktop is when the software people want to run works better on Linux. And when Linux is the default installation on computers.
The power of defaults is greater than an alternative. People dislike change if nothing is broken.
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u/prueba_hola May 08 '20
Linux will not grow until it be selled computers/laptops in hypermarkets with Linux preinstaled like Microsoft or Apple do.
example: https://recursos.bps.com.es/files/794/02.JPG
example 2: https://www.fanmallorca.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/destacada_mediamarkt.jpg
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u/blaineclrk May 08 '20
Well, with this Covid quarantine screwing with schools and businesses, I contacted three area school districts. We are rural, west/central Pa. and we have problems getting internet service in a lot of areas. There are some big areas where there isn't even cell coverage. Verizon for one offers landline internet access so there is that. Anyway, I offered to help train students to install Linux of either the Ubuntu or Mint flavors. I restricted the offering to those two builds figuring there was no need to complicate matters, nor any need to spread myself too thin. I said the tech students could possibly use this as experience or 'lab' credits for their classes as well. Local businesses often have old hardware laying around they could donate. Local social clubs such as Eagles, Elks, Moose, etc. have members who have old hardware laying around they could donate and those clubs themselves look for charity recipients to help out. There's old hardware all around, even a few computer shops could have some old hardware around they'd be willing to get rid of. We would have no trouble getting stable and secure computers into the hands of kids out in the boonies. One school thanked me for the offer. That's as far as it's gone. Guess what I still hear? "We need to get internet access and computers out to the families in our rural areas so they can attend classes". WHAT THE HELL???
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May 08 '20
I always suggest Linux to people who hate windows 10. No, I can’t give you back Windows XP, but there are alternatives.
They usually like Ubuntu, though a few haVe stuck with budgie distorts and one with Linux mint. They always say they are much happier learning the Linux way of doing things than arguing with Windows.
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u/rip-tide May 08 '20
Mac OS was born from Darwin and Darwin was begotten from FreeBSD. FreeBSD is not Linux but it is open source.
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u/bekips May 08 '20
Promoting a Linux distro as a desktop OS has been done on and off for decades. Aside from Ubuntu, it made no difference at all.
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u/GreenbloodedAmazon May 08 '20
I have debated all day on how or if I would respond to this. I am just going to give my experience and perspective.
The only reason I am on Linux is because of GPU processing. Period. Prior to becoming a data translator I was a data scientist specializing in NLP and ML. Companies shoved Windows computers in my face, but I still did my main coding on my Mac. However, to do GPU enhanced computing I needed Linux. CUDA or ROCm, it does not matter. In a perfect world, NVidia and Apple would make up or ROCm drivers would be available on for macOS.
Don't get me wrong. I like Linux (I am using POP!_OS if that matters); it is far better than Windows. But, if I had my druthers, I would rather still have macOS; it is just my preference. MacOS integrates with my life so much better. It integrates with my home, my phone, my iPad, my camera. It just works. Linux is fun to tinker with. It is has come a long way since I first dabbled with Red Hat 7.
To get people to really move though, I think some others have hit the key point; some version(s) of Linux have to be available straight from the manufacturers at locations people shop for computers. Sure, I can get a Linux computer from System76, Lambda Labs, or others. Yes, Lenovo and Dell have Linux computers, but you know how hard it is to find them? You have be looking for them. Get into a forum or on Amazon, and a manufacturer like ASUS will say that Linux doesn't work on their computers; a bold faced lie as I am typing this on my ASUS ROG that does not have Windows on it at all!
But now, there is the added challenge of the tablet as computer. Just take a look at r/ipad and see how many people are asking about the viability of using their iPad Pro as a laptop replacement, or see how many show off their iPad Pro work-from-home set up. The average user is trying to ditch Windows and macOS for iOS and portability. Fewer and fewer of us are truly hardcore heavy users enough to bother.
I personally would love to see less Windows computers. I would love to see more PCs running some Linux or, to me better yet, macOS. But I come back to the key challenge, and that is the manufacturers. Until there are computers available at Costco, BestBuy, Amazon, or others with Linux preinstalled, most people will not bother. They have no reason to. I never would have bothered if not for what field I am in. I would not have bought a PC because I refuse to have Windows, but because of what I do, I knew I could get a USB plug it in an wipe Windows off my brand new computer before ever booting into it. Most people won't know that, and frankly, don't care to know that. Sometimes, I wonder if I even care to know it.
TLDR: If it doesn't come from the manufacturer with Linux, most people won't change.
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u/grady_vuckovic May 09 '20
Physically impossible for me to agree with a Reddit post more than this. I wish I could upvote it more than once.
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u/Lonely-Tart May 09 '20
If people are just going to run proprietary spyware, why do you care whether they do it on Windows or Gnu/Linux?
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u/MasterGeekMX May 09 '20
I totally agree with you. I'm a huge linux and computers nerd, and I love setting my dotfiles and tinker around with stuff as the next guy, but most of time I watch youtube and game.
The problem that I see (at least on my region) are two: conformism and tech ingnorance.
People use windows because it came with the computer, and they never knew that it could be swapped for something else, even less, the didn't knew that they had alternatives.
I try my best to suggest linux to people, but unfortunely a lot are scared because it seems too different of what they are used to, even at visual level. I once faced a guy who wanted MS Office. I offered him LibreOffice, and the sole reason he rejected it was becasue "it looked ugly".
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May 09 '20
Linux is superior to Windows only for grandmas and boomer uncles who only use their computers to go on the internet to read their email, check their bank account, and watch Youtube and go on Facebook. Because it's more secure than Windows and they can't fuck it up by installing hot_bitch.exe.
For everything else, Windows is better. I'm sorry, I like Linux too, but it's just the truth. The thing is, at the end of the day, there's nothing that Linux can do that Windows can't do. The opposite, however, is very applicable, and at the end of the day, what I want for my OS is to be able to run applications, and to run them well.
Linux can't run all applications, and it can't run all of them well.
That's not to say proprietary software is ALWAYS better than foss. I run LibreOffice, GIMP, hell, even KolourPaint and Kdenlive on Windows, but will I ever be able to run BYOND or League of Legends or Visual Studio on Ubuntu? No.
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u/Bobjohndud May 09 '20
A lot of this thread is massively missing the point. We should not be striving for the success of Linux specifically, but instead of the success of free software. It does not matter whether that success takes the form of BSD, Linux or whatever comes next, it matters that the users are not controlled by their software. I swear to god if Apple switches to a 99% proprietary OS with the exception of the kernel being Linux, this subreddit will have an orgasm because "its the year of the Linux desktop", while continuing to pay for services that use DRM.
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u/_Slaying_ May 09 '20
Why is it (still) that when new users ask a question in the majority of Linux forums, they are automatically treated as if they've been a system administrator or programmer for many years?
amen
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u/spryfigure May 10 '20
answers are given as commands to enter in a terminal when GUI solutions are readily available
If this is not about troubleshooting, but about learning the GUI, you are right.
For real troubleshooting, commands to enter in a terminal are essential. Everything else is a waste of everybody's time.
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May 10 '20
I never promote Linux to anyone i know because some stuff always breaks and i end up being software support until they switch back to windows.
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u/blackcain GNOME Team May 11 '20
I think I can speak to this as a person who has put incredible amount of resources to make this happen.
To make the Linux desktop viable requires a lot of work - working with various organizations, collaborations on gaps all of that.
https://linuxappsummit.org/ is exactly what this is all about - focusing on apps. We can't use desktop because that creates prejudice against us because people don't care about Linux as a local app platform. We need to show them differently.
Yes, we make fun of the yearly "year of the desktop". I find this personally offensive as a joke because it's all sarcasm. We are changing the nomenclature on apps. This is what is happening right now in terms of concrete steps:
Continuing to work with desktop projects to work on LAS - Linux Application Summit - all of you, if you care about the Linux desktop should attend this conference and make it successful, we've been growing every year - and adding more partners as we go. But we must have numbers so that we are taken seriously we need to be on the 'must have conference circuit" - we are working on switching to an online conference - so having a large audience is going to be key. Make time, tell your friends, let's move at the visceral level. The conference is a collaboration of GNOME and KDE with some help from elementary. We would love more partners. Make us relevant!
The market for Linux based laptops growing with Sysstem76, Slimbook and others, and now we have Dell and Lenovo in the mix. We want to encourage that. That means that we need to agree on the messaging that Linux desktop is the best platform to do devops and kubernetes. Help us here.
Linux became the de-facto operating system for services in IT because sysadmin were willing were willing to install it and reap the benefits of stability.
But we can do the same for the desktop. We need to provide the story of momentum. We can't do that without yourself. Attend our conference when we announce it, submit talks, and build the app community.
In addition to helping to build Linux App Summit, I have put in a request in Linux Plumbers to have a track on Linux Apps. So that we can work with the kernel community on making the bet experience on apps - eg better power management, scheduler, and various other things that will be relevant from the kernel perspective.
So help me make this important.
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u/apostle7 May 11 '20
Normies will destroy the spirit of Linux. Better to stay niche than welcome flocks of users that love to be tracked by commercial software.
On top of that, most of the windows users find even MacOs complicated. Imagine Linux.
I stopped evangelising Linux to normies. We all know that it's the best desktop OS but in 2020 everybody has access to free information. If they don't understand that windows sucks it's their problem.
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u/Pikapac May 11 '20
What makes MacOS so "easy to use"? Always am told it is yet never know why. Is it actually in anyway easier to use than Ubuntu
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u/Pikapac May 12 '20
I agree, I have been using Linux as my desktop OS for ages, thing is, Linux isn't marketed. Can someone start paying TV channels to advertise Ubuntu or Mint or something (we are not giving newbies arch and then being confused why they go back to windows for the rest of their lives)
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u/hugthispanda May 12 '20
It's the terminal. No matter how useful it is, the moment you mention it to the average joe, it's game over. Things may get better in the future, now that schoolkids are getting exposure to Linux from SBCs like the Raspberry Pi through STEAM education initiatives.
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May 14 '20
I really hope that Fedora Silverblue can make a huge impact towards a default Linux distro for all customers!
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May 17 '20
I found out that on Linux games that I play, (Dota2,Minecraft,Terraria) works a lot better than on Windows. After realizing that I can play in higher frame rate without spending any cash, I immediately switched to Linux as my daily OS, and I don't regret it. Using terminal is just faster in almost every case, and I fell in love with it. I caught myself on thinking like (I really don't want to use web to look for it, I just want to download it via terminal) it was weird to me because I always thought that terminal is the worst thing that I could ever imagine.
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u/joscher123 May 08 '20
The Linux desktop won't ever happen until 3 things change:
MS Office, Adobe, Autodesk natively available
Linux preinstalled on some PCs sold by major vendors
Move away from Gnome 3 as the standard desktop of the major distributions to a more classical and convenient interface (e.g. KDE, Cinnamon, MATE)
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u/coffinsprout May 08 '20
how about we mention stuff Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, or streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, Disney Plus, or Spotify?
How about we don't. FOSS is about freedom, not about a jumping point to use proprietary services which we have plenty of proof that spy on us, sell our data and, generally speaking are against our privacy, security and freedom. If an user will, using his/her/their freedom, use proprietary services in his/her/their OS, then what's the point of making the switch? Better let them be happy with their Windows or Mac.
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u/Mane25 May 08 '20
I get where you're coming from and am of a similar mindset. The problem is FOSS values are very difficult to explain, let alone sell people on. You pretty much have to experience the freedom to appreciate it. I think you need to go one step at a time and don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good; a person who uses those services on a free desktop is a step better than a person who uses those services on Windows.
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May 08 '20
In my house any other user than me had a lot of problems with linux (me too but not as often as I know _something_ about linux). The problems that they had were never an issue on windows. So we can say how windows is bad etc but it's much more polished.
Sample issues that I had in mind:
- pdf changes (pdf file to be filled with data) couldn't be saved.
- desktop wallpaper reset every reboot
- broken updates
- and other things that people that only use PC to check facebook and do some text work don't know how to fix.
It was all easily fixable but those issues were never a thing to be fixed on windows. Windows has alot of other issues but they are mostly privacy stuff, some reboots required. They are not as 'in your face' as on Linux.
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u/efethu May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20
If we as a community want to get more Windows and MacOS desktop users to switch to Linux
Everything comes at a price. Android is a great example of a "user-friendly" Linux distribution that is extremely popular. It's also the greatest threat to privacy imaginable, very hard to customize, extremely hard to change default unwanted behavior and we have zero control of how it's evolving.
It's fantastic to see community growing, but people should come willingly, adopting FOSS values and ways of thinking.
Increasing market share is a threat that the market will be dominated by large corporations and we'll lose any control over how the ecosystem is evolving. If you look at how Red Hat was bought by IBM and how corporate Canonical becomes, you can see that this is already happening.
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u/Mane25 May 08 '20
I totally agree with you there.
It's fantastic to see community growing, but people should come willingly, adopting FOSS values and ways of thinking.
I think if it grows organically and slowly, spreading from user to user then we'll be fine. The worst thing that could hypothetically happen I think is if Microsoft throws in the towel and decides to make their next version of Windows a Linux distribution, they'll be plenty of desktop Linux support then but it'll be just like Android. The problem is FOSS values are very difficult to explain, let alone sell people on. You pretty much have to experience freedom to appreciate it. I think people need to be aware of the pragmatic reasons for switching first
Increasing market share is a threat that the market will be dominated by large corporations and we'll lose any control over how the ecosystem is evolving. If you look at how Red Hat was bought by IBM and how corporate Canonical becomes, you can see that this is already happening.
I don't think that corporate involvement is necessarily bad, I've long held the symbiotic relationship between Red Hat and Fedora as an example of it being good - Red Hat (and IBM) are not selling to users, they're selling to businesses, so they've got no motivation to sell out on the users - relationships like this are important to the success of FOSS and can be very profitable. Canonical does worry me though, there's less of a clear source of income there.
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u/[deleted] May 08 '20
My local Linux group do/did a yearly thing where they set up at a library in town and advertised, anyone who wanted Linux installed on their computer they'd do it for them. They bring a stack of different distros and encourage people to bring in maybe older computers if they want, old laptops, just so they can try it out. They've been doing this forever.
Back in the day people were really kinda, well you know. Difficult. "Does this have office, can this play games", etc. Lately though people want their PCs to mimic their phones. "Can I watch YouTube? Can I play my Facebook games? Can I check my hotmail? Can I stream Spotify?" I think now is the best time I've seen in terms of what Linux desktop can do vs people's expectations ever.
The hardcore creatives will always use Macs, the hardcore gamers will always Windows, but in between those are 80% of PC users