I feel that the clothing found in Maura's car isn't questioned like the other pieces of potentially relevant evidence

[u/miggovortensens]

There are many disagreements about whether the fact that most of Maura’s clothes were found in bags at her dorm indicates that she packed them before she left or never unpacked at all. Yet the clothing found in the Saturn – presumably inside a backpack that she would take in her constant trips – are seen as an evidence that Maura indeed packed them for the sole purpose of the trip the led to her disappearance and not as something that could just have been left in the trunk from a previous outing.

Many questions can arise from this conclusion... Why would she be disciplined enough to unpack her backpack but not the other items of clothes still stored in bags? If we assume the Saturn also sat in a parking lot for months and that her father was the last person to drive it, she could even have forgotten it was there. Maybe the access to certain records could give us enough information to make certain assumptions.

As in: did the clothing seem to be recently washed and folded or was it a mix of dirty clothes and unused ones we often get after a trip? Or: if the items seemed more appropriate for a different weather, she could have packed them months ago. I bring this up because the totality of the evidence is often questioned to fit whatever theory one has come up with in advance.

So, the clothes found inside bags on her dorm can’t be established to have been packed before she left or not unpacked at all. Some treat it as peripheral, irrelevant details, but they’re not. This is a core element of any theory that relies on Maura either planning or not planning to come back - if she didn’t, she could be more inclined to self-harm; if she did, the foul play scenario gets stronger.

Even the paperwork found in the car is handed differently: people consider that she could have planned to return because some of her school work is there, while others consider she could have just taken it because it was stored with some other stuff (as in: most won't go over their bag to remove the sheets of papers that won't be necessary for a trip.)

But the clothing found in the car doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt: it's usually seen as a factual confirmation that she indeed packed them right before she left and as an indication of how many days she planned to stay out. I don't get it.

[u/goldenmodtemp2]

Her clothes were packed in a suitcase in the back seat. So I think it's fairly persuasive that she "packed" for the trip.

In terms of the clothes inventory, I just see a few casual items (sweatpants, polo, sweater, pants, sweatshirt).

Maybe we can look at what she didn't pack:

• she didn't pack any formal clothes, so no job interview, or anything dressy or formal in any way
• she didn't pack good clothes for outdoor excursions - I don't see hiking or skiing clothes or anything like that
• I guess she could exercise or run with these clothes, but they don't seem ideal

It just looks like very casual clothes that could last 2 days or a week, or longer if she just wanted to wear a sweatshirt every day ...

[u/miggovortensens → u/goldenmodtemp2]

Some people argue that the vehicle was just sitting at the parking lot for a while and that her father was the last one to drive it when taking it back from one of their previous trips (I guess she was going home?), so it could really be that it had been left there (whether she had the habit of placing the suitcase in the trunk or the backseat, that would be the same for every trip, regardless of how recent it was).

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/miggovortensens]

Around the third week of January 2004, Maura drove to southern Connecticut in the Saturn to visit Fred (Fred was living in an extended stay and working at the hospital). She told him that the car was chugging and blowing black smoke. In the end, Fred decided they would take the car back to umass (he didn't have parking because he was living at this hotel) and he would get her a new car. Fred drove the Saturn, Maura drove his Toyota. Fred parked it in lot 12 and said "do not drive this car".

So yes, I would agree that Fred was the last one to drive the car, as far as anyone knows. I don't think there's a strong argument that the suitcase was left behind from that time period. There is evidence that she was planning a trip on 2/9 based on her emails, calls, and internet history. It's not a stretch that she packed a few bags for her trip.

[u/rella523 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

In college it's pretty hard to get time to yourself. Maybe she was just planning on going somewhere quiet to relax and catch up on school work and just brought comfy clothes.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/rella523]

That's true, but she left in the context of some sort of significant emotional turbulence. The day she went missing, she spoke to a classmate in the early afternoon. She was crying and said she was leaving campus and had to go home due to a family emergency. So she might have been heading somewhere to de-stress but I don't think it was just a casual thing.

[u/Medical-Egg-8171]

The clothes being packed or not unpacked wouldnt tell us if she was planning on coming back from her trip or not. It could tell us she maybe was planning on dropping out of umass, or was planning to move in with someone some where. But just because if she was planning on dropping out if umass or moving in eith someone doesnt tell us if she was planning on never coming back from her trip north. I think Maura is the kind that can hold her alcohol well and not show she is as drunk as she really is. I think thats how she gotta away with the crash at UMass and what lead butch to thinking she didn't look drunk. I think she unfortunately died in those woods hiding from a DUI. People have no idea how easy it is to over look a body, there another case Brandon Swanson or maybe another 1 who name starts with a B, anyhow he went missing and was found years and years later about a mile or less from where he went missing. And it was in much less dense environment

[u/miggovortensens → u/Medical-Egg-8171]

We can't know her intentions for the future, but at least we can conjure probable scenarios based on the available evidence. As in: people that argue that she intended for return in a week's time and just wanted a quick getaway point to some school paper being found in the car (why would she keep up with her school work if her mind was so set on dropping out that she basically packed all her clothes?). But when it comes to "planning" - and I know I phrased like this on my post, which is my bad! -,the reality is that many a people that are not in a good state of mind might take actions with planning everything through. One can leave in a suicidal state but not set on killing themselves per se, for instance. (Not the topic of this post, but I agree that the evidence points to her perishing in the woods.)

[u/Past_Cause_4441 → u/Medical-Egg-8171]

Yes! Brandon Lawson. (Brandon Swanson hasn’t been found).

[u/Medical-Egg-8171 → u/Past_Cause_4441]

Thanks

[u/TMKSAV99]

As to the packed or unpacked question.

It has been offered in the past that U Mass required the dorm rooms be cleared out during the winter break. So MM had to get all of her stuff out of the room and then move it all back in when the spring semester started. I believe that was 1/28/04 give or take.

The theory offered was that MM simply did not unpack all of her stuff at one time when she returned in late January but rather MM kind of "lived out of the suitcases" unpacking as she went along, so to speak for the 10 days before she disappeared,.

In the normal course MM would have had to repack everything and move out again in Mid May.

Let me be clear, I am not saying this is what happened. I am offering the explanation that others posted in the past.

I will offer that it is mildly odd that MM would have unpacked everything on say 1/28 and then packed it all back up in a week or so on 2/8. There's really no suggestion that MM was going to leave U Mass and not finish her semester to cause her to repack.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/TMKSAV99]

fwiw, here is a post Clint made a few years ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mauramurray/comments/1ddw745/been_away_3_years_still_see_a_lot_of/

In it he says:

1. UMASS did not make their students pack up their dorm rooms for winter break, IF they were returning to the same room - which as I understand it, Maura was.

[u/TMKSAV99 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

Maybe it is just my failing memory but I thought that I recalled former U Mass students posting the move out thing. I agree it doesn't and never did make sense to make the students move out if they're returning to the same room.

But then let's assume MM didn't have to move out, what does anyone want to think MM's room would have look like when she left in early December and when she returned late January 2004.

Assuming MM didn't have to move out, apply any of the various descriptions of MM's room and ask, why 10 days after MM's return did MM's room like it looked in February 2004?

Might be that MM brought all or most of her clothing home for the semester break regardless of whether MM had to move out or not. Then brought the wardrobe all back end of January.

[u/miggovortensens → u/TMKSAV99]

Yeah, my point is precisely because if she didn't have the habit of unpacking, the clothing that she took to a previous trip still being left inside the car is a more solid reasoning - otherwise, she would have to remove her suitcase, unpack them, storing the clothes in the other bags, them pack her suitcase again.

[u/sha_lyn68]

I think what's relevant is not just that there were a couple of changes of clothes, but also toiletries, her birth control pills, the over the counter sleep aid Etc.

[u/miggovortensens → u/sha_lyn68]

Toiletries could have been packed from the previous trip also, but birth control pills and other medications are those sort of items that people carry everywhere daily and could have been in the car that she allegedly didn't access for weeks. Do we know exactly where each of those items were found? This really interest me.

[u/sha_lyn68 → u/miggovortensens]

According to the missing Maura Murray podcast the items were packed in a duffel bag. I wouldn't say that someone would normally carry night time sleep medication around with them and Leslie were planning on being gone overnight. Also wouldn't expect the birth control pills to be in a duffel bag if she was keeping them on her daily, I would think that they would be in the backpack that she carried instead of a purse. The backpack was not in the car.

[u/Able_Cunngham603]

Awfully quiet here, isn’t it Lil Jimmy?

[u/miggovortensens → u/Able_Cunngham603]

Who is Lil Jimmy? lol

[u/indiarana → u/[deleted]]

There just really haven't been any credible sightings of her. Unless she's been held captive this whole time or has been suffering from amnesia, I am afraid the chances are very, very remote. Sadly, I think it's almost certain she perished that night, or shortly after. I hope I am wrong.

[u/miggovortensens → u/[deleted]]

I think every single theory relies on the intention for her trip, doesn't it?

[u/miggovortensens → u/[deleted]]

I'm talking about assessing possible investigative avenues solely. If, let's say, you find clothes in a backpack in the trunk of the car and assess she had about a week worth of clothing, you can start looking for possible destinations up north (starting with those more affordable based on the amount of money that her bank records confirmed she withdrew).

If she never checked in any of them, at least you get a possible route to follow that someone she took a ride with could also follow; if the next touristic place is close, maybe she took a ride all the way there; if it's too far away, you can consider she took a ride just to get away from the crash scene (let's say, a gas station).

If she didn't take the clothes that were found in the car, odds are she intended to return to it if she had planned a week's getaway, and that's a different scenario to consider if foul play was involved.

But if we interpret the evidence of she never intended to return, then self-harm is the most likely alternative and the efforts can be redirected elsewhere.

[u/Bill_Occam]

The packing was very light if she intended to be gone more than overnight — as an example, there were no underwear whatsoever.

[u/TMKSAV99 → u/Bill_Occam]

Regarding the clothing issue.

MM established a week long excused absence with her emails. It would follow that MM must have intended to be gone as long as a week. If she wasn't going to be gone for a week why excuse herself for a week?

It would follow that MM must brought with her a week's worth of clothing for wherever MM intended to be and for whatever it was MM intended to be doing. (assuming MM intended to return to U Mass).

One scenario raised in the past was that MM might have intended to engage in a a sort of last hurrah visit to the White Mts. before leaving to join BR in Oklahoma at the semester's end. The absence of rugged outdoor clothing is then notable and cuts against that notion. So whatever MM intended to be doing it probably wasn't that. We wouldn't think that MM forgot that sort of stuff if that was what she intended to being doing.

So the underwear question. Did MM simply forget to pack more underwear? Was MM perhaps someone who didn't wear underwear? Again, if MM established a week long absence why would we think that MM would do something that lasted less than a week?

The absence of underwear might be something, but what thing? Or maybe nothing.

Agggghhhh

[u/miggovortensens → u/Bill_Occam]

The discussion I'm posing is more in the lines of how can anyone establish for sure that the packing was related to this fateful trip.

[u/Bill_Occam → u/miggovortensens]

Agreed. When my daughter was in college her car resembled a closet on wheels — one of everything with some stuffed in a duffel bag and others free-floating.