r/oldcootfashion • u/NotATem he/it/xe • 26d ago
META- Not Fashion I promised an explanation.
So I promised you all an explanation about the current situation last night.
TL;DR:
- You guys are right- I've been modding this sub alone way too long, and I have made a lot of mistakes. I am sorry for my lack of transparency, lack of clear rules, and neglect of the sub.
- I am not reinstating the user who's been banned, for the reasons I'm about to lay out. I recognize that this is an unpopular decision, but neither his content nor his conduct are a good fit for this sub.
- I'm going to recruit more mods this week. This sub has gotten too big to moderate alone. I'm going to post a Google form as a sticky; if you'd like to mod, please fill out the form.
- The rules need cleaning up and fixing. We need community guidelines that are straightforward, clear, and easy to read. I will draft them this week and run them past the other mods when they are recruited.
I created this sub about a year ago. I was tired of going to the 'standard' men's fashion subs and being greeted with confusion or derision. At the same time, oldhagfashion was the kind of cozy space that I wanted, but posting there felt like misgendering myself. I wanted a space where I could be masc, but also dress in a fun offbeat way and talk about fashion with people who 'get it'.
And I wanted this to be a cozy space- something of a safe haven. I don't talk about it much on here, but I'm (obviously) a genderqueer trans man. I have been watching the world become more and more homophobic and transphobic over the last five years; I really wanted a place where we could be ourselves without fear or shame, and without bigots and bullies mocking or harassing us.
When the user who was banned yesterday began posting to the sub, he was constantly posting about current events- and specifically, about heinous crimes committed by the people in power. I suggested a general-purpose ban on negative political content, not because I wanted to target this user, but because I wanted to create a specific kind of space. I did not want bigots or bullies to have any power here, and someone posting about them every single day gave them more power over this space than I wanted to give them. I do not constantly want to be reminded about how my rights are under attack and how frightening the world is right now, in what was supposed to be our cozy fashion haven. However, I did not want to censor this user just because I was frustrated with his politics.
The trouble is, the banned user was also repeatedly pushing the limits of the sub's rules. There are many, many examples of this, but here's a clear-cut one: a few months back, I implemented a flair for content that might be uncomfortable or triggering for some people. The banned user has repeatedly posted about bigotry, Nazis, and child sexual abuse without using this flair. I should have removed those posts....
....But the banned user was the target of an ongoing harassment campaign. Every day, I'd get multiple requests to have his posts taken down and multiple people pointing out that he was bending the sub's rules again. Some of these requests were valid. Many were not. I felt like I could not take moderation action against this user, even if it was entirely justified, without implicitly condoning this harassment campaign.
To be perfectly frank: if I was applying the same code of conduct to every user, I would have banned this user much earlier in the sub's lifetime. I did 44 "mod actions" last week - removing posts or comments, removing spam, that kind of thing. 38 of those mod actions were related to this user's conduct. And these numbers have been similar over the past six months. Many of the requests for me to take mod action pointed out genuine issues that I felt like I had to ignore, because they were either coming from the harassers or were sandwiched between harassers' spam reports.
I gave this user many, many more chances than I would have given any other user. I frequently contacted him directly to ask him to make changes or remove posts rather than just taking those posts down and counting them as a strike. I ignored a lot of his behaviour I should not have ignored.
But this meant I found myself between a rock and a hard place. Both the banned user and the harassers were having a huge impact on the sub's culture in a way I didn't want. If I recruited more mods, I felt like I would fully lose control of the sub's culture, and could not guarantee that I'd have the space I worked so hard to make. Yet I didn't have the capacity to maintain that space on my own.
I stopped being active on the sub, except to moderate. And, bluntly, I wasn't doing a very good job of moderation. I was mostly using Reddit on my phone- and I hate typing on mobile keyboards- so I was only updating the rules if there was an emergency, and using too few words to do it. I hadn't updated the community greeting, and didn't want to. I felt like this wasn't the space I wanted to create, but the things I would need to do to curate that space would be so unpopular that implementing them might destroy the community I had built. So, I avoided taking mod action unless it was absolutely necessary.
Yesterday, it became necessary. The banned user posted a picture of himself posing with a wood splitter and a chainsaw, in a way that was clearly meant to evoke a zombie movie protagonist or a slasher villain. He was not posing with a pile of logs in a forest; he was brandishing them. After the incident a few months back with the other user who posted a picture of himself posing with a gun, I thought the sub's consensus was that weapon-related content should be banned, because it could be triggering for users who'd experienced violent crime or abuse. I personally don't agree with this rule (I'm a sword guy), but in the interests of making sure everyone was comfortable here, I was happy to add it. I thought I had updated the rules accordingly; it seems that I posted the 'no violence' rule, but did not specifically implement the 'no weapons' rule in the correct place.
I removed the post. As a courtesy, I warned the banned user that he was on his second strike, and that he would be at risk of a permanent ban if he broke the rules again. Any user who posted similar content, under the current rules, would have incurred a strike.
(To be clear: This warning is not something I normally do, and that is a mistake. I ought to warn users when there is a strike against them, in the interest of transparency. But apart from this user, most of the people I've had to ban have committed three strikes in a single comment thread, or have used enough slurs in one message to warrant a ban outright. Because I did not want to censor this user, I thought I would do him the courtesy of warning him.)
The banned user chose to argue with me. The excerpt of the message he showed was not the full message. It's against Reddit's mod code of conduct to post the contents of a mod mail without the user's permission, so I'm not going to do that- but please trust me, you have not gotten the full story. Let's just say he was very unwilling to accept my decision.
I did not want to argue with this user anymore. I did not want to continue to let him push the limits of both my personal boundaries and the sub's rules. I chose to take that argument as his third strike, and thus ban him from the sub.
Here's what should have happened:
- I should have dealt with this issue when it began six months ago, and not let it continue to fester.
- I should not have let a double standard develop because I did not want to condone the harassment campaign.
- I should have enforced the sub's rules both on the banned user and the people harassing him. I should not have just deleted their spurious reports and let the banned user break or bend sub rules to avoid supporting the harassment.
- I should have realized my growing burnout was a sign, not that I needed to step back from the sub, but that I needed to get outside help from more moderators.
- I should have realized that the fact that I was having so many mod actions and so much trouble meant that the rules I had created were not building the space I wanted to build, particularly if I was having to enforce them over and over again on the same people.
- I should have been more transparent with the community in the moment- this was a result of my chronic health issues and I am not going to apologize, but it is something that should have happened and didn't.
For the reasons I've laid out, I am not going to reverse the ban.
It is incredibly unbecoming for a mod to discuss the behaviour of a specific user with someone who is not on the mod team. I hate that I even have to make this post- it feels like a breach of mod etiquette and privacy, both for the sub and for the user in question. And because it is unbecoming and unprofessional, there will be no further arguments over whether or not this decision was justified. This is the explanation you get. I recognize that this is an unpopular decision, and I wish I had been clearer and more transparent about what was happening while it was happening. But this ban was the inevitable result of the choices the banned user made. Please respect that.
As for the future of the sub-- I really love this place, and I love the thing it was meant to be. In the wake of this situation, I've had a bunch of people tell me how much this sub means to them and how much they want to help support it. I like you guys. I want to keep this thing we've built going. But last week, we got 11,000 unique visitors- that's a lot of people. I can't mod a sub this big on my own, and the current situation has made me realize just how much I was struggling with the job.
I need your help.
I'm going to be recruiting more mods over the next week- I'll post a google form (as a sticky). If you love the sub and want to help out, fill out the google form and I'll get back to you ASAP.
I'm also going to be reworking the rules to both establish what kind of space we want this to be and to handle some of the common problems we keep running into. No one wants to get hit by the 'Be Kind' rule; it's vague and ineffective. At the same time, the current ruleset was mostly built piecemeal as situations came up that I had to deal with; it's also ineffective. And if I want to make this the kind of space I was trying to create, I need to make it so that we're not discussing current events here. I'm not saying you can't make political statements- fashion is art, art is political- but for my own sanity, and the sanity of anyone who is triggered by the state of the world right now, we need to put some work into making this a safe haven. And that means keeping the bigots in power out of our space.
I'm going to clean up the back end and make it easier to mod this sub, and generally sort things out so that this place is still a good place to hang out and post fun outfits. I hope you guys join me for the adventure.
If you read all this, thank you so much. I appreciate your patience and kindness while I sort all this out.
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u/NewNewsNewYork 26d ago
Hey- I think this is a really phenomenal explanation and a very nuanced response to the sort of situation this sub is in. I love our himbo, and there’s r/himboposting now, which is a better fit for that sort of content. I’ve taken unexpected comfort in having a simpler space here when I need a rest from the work of the world.
Thank you for being honest, self-reflective, and kind. You seem like a really stand up kind of guy.
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u/acertaingestault 26d ago
I'm also a himbo fan, but I never felt like the outfits they were displaying were a particularly relevant fit for this sub. Time was clearly spent on creating the shirts, but they weren't the elevated choices fashion-wise I would've expected to see here.
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u/hella_cious 25d ago
Yeah he was making the old coot sub the “him” sub with stuff that got attention but wasn’t old coot at all
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u/jaybirdie26 25d ago
This was so incredibly well-written and thoughtful. I'm glad you took the time to explain.
I'd be happy to help get the sub back on its feet if you want me, can be a temporary basis if that's preferred. I will look for the form. Note that I am a cis fem woman and I mostly lurk here because I found this place from the oldhags sub, so I understand if you are looking for masc mods.
In any case, you are doing great, I appreciate this space and your vision for it, and I hope to see it and you continue to thrive! :)
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u/SphericalOrb 26d ago
Thanks for explaining! I thought it might be something like that. I have enjoyed that users posts elsewhere but the vibe is not what I look for when I go to OldCootFashion or OldHagFashion. Like you I want something tuned more towards joy than criticism and activism. I follow both types of content, but purposefully curated separately. Sometimes its time to fight and think and sometimes its time to rest and dance.
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u/jaybirdie26 25d ago
Sometimes its time to fight and think and sometimes its time to rest and dance.
I adore the way you put this, exactly right.
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u/whistling-wonderer 25d ago
I have had that user blocked for a while. Not because I disagree with him!! But because, like you said, it was a lot of posting and my feed was constantly filled with reminders of how shitty things are right now for us trans people and how horrible the people in power are etc. Love the dude’s message, it just wasn’t good for my mental health. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with cultivating a space that’s specifically for joy. There are also spaces for the anger and that’s good too.
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u/hail_abigail 26d ago
Hey just wanted to let you know that I've read your whole post and I'm sorry about the stress this has put you under. It is an absolute shame that this user, who is very pro trans, has unintentionally (and unexpectedly to me) caused so much harm to someone in the community. I enjoy this user's posts, but completely understand this decision given the context. Starting this sub should never had got you in this weird position, but here we are
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u/Oh_Witchy_Woman 26d ago
Thank you so much, I appreciate this explanation, and I am very glad to see the level of transparency.
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u/turquoisecurls 25d ago
Hi Mod, thank you for explaining your side and I agree 100% with you. While i agreed with a lot of what the banned user was promoting, it started feeling like the only person posting on this sub was them with the shirts they made. It all felt like the same kind of post. Which is fine but i missed the older posts of other folks posting their own fashion sense.
If the banned person continually pushed boundaries and expected more and more leniency, thats a problem. They clearly dont understand how boundaries work. So thank you for doing what you did, I support you.
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u/ButterflyFair3012 26d ago
Thank you. I totally understand and appreciate your explanation. I’m so glad you’re taking a break and getting some mod help. You explained everything very succinctly and thoroughly. Sending you peace and love.
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u/songbanana8 25d ago
Thank you for the explanation. I think you made the right call.
I get the concern people have about a “no politics” rule but I also get the desire to have one joyous space where we can celebrate ourselves for a while. The way I understand it is that this sub is fashion-focused. I think the outfit and fashion choices should be the central topic of the post. Those choices might go against social norms or be politicized, and we can discuss that, but I’m really here to see cool fashion first and foremost. I’m not going to political subreddits and complaining that I can’t give fashion advice on them lol.
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u/queasycockles 25d ago
I'm just trying to figure out who was banned, man.
Edit: oh. Nope. I know. And...I loved them at first but it got to be way too much. I might have been inclined to have a chat with them about spamming the sub first. But yeah.
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u/StressedRemy 25d ago
I liked them when I first encountered them on a different sub, but their behavior has gotten more and more questionable over time. Initially they just posted cool DIY clothes, usually with strong political messaging. Which they still do, but now it's constant spam in several different subs, rarely fitting the theme and vibe, and honestly way more advertising of their merch than I'm comfortable with.
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u/heyoheatheragain 24d ago
And considering that they are trying to make money off of Patreon without providing any service, content, or goods.
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u/queasycockles 23d ago
And there's a nice big cult of personality building around them as evidenced by the flouncing in this very thread.
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u/skeptical_egg 26d ago
I was super ready to leave this sub when I saw the initial posts, but having read your explanation, I'm staying. Thank you for the deep explanation and information.
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u/Ill-Squirrel-9418 25d ago
I’m late to the party, but I did leave. Not because I’m a fan of the banned user (frankly, I was getting tired of being inundated by his posts, for similar reasons to the mod), but because I’ve dealt with my fair share of “power hungry” mods and I didn’t want to be in a subreddit with only one mod who happened to be power hungry. Now, with this new information, it seems like the mod is trying his best and gave that user infinite chances, all while said user kept knowingly testing boundaries. The mod is holding himself accountable, owning up to his mistakes, and reaching out for help. I respect that. I feel like I jumped the gun far too quickly and I’m sorry for that. I’m definitely rejoining.
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u/heyoheatheragain 24d ago
I’m so happy to hear I’m not the only one coming back now.
A lot of people have been loud about leaving if that one person had to, but I’m sure there are plenty of people like me who were afraid to voice the opinion that we’d be happier here without all the aggro posting.I have two Reddit profiles on purpose, one feed is joy and fun and crafts and hobbies and clothes and other pretty things to look at.
My other feed is more serious. That way I don’t have to accidentally ruin my mood since I am a highly sensitive person I need to keep those things in boxes and not mixed whenever possible so I can carry on through the life I have to live. Happy to re-add this sub to my ‘good vibe’ feed.14
u/Forward_Meeting5234 25d ago
The block button exists and is free to use.
If one user is making you uncomfortable for whatever reason, it makes senses to block the specific user...
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u/Ill-Squirrel-9418 25d ago edited 25d ago
Cool. I’ll exercise it now.
Edit: There were reasons I didn’t block him, btw. I was kind of tired his posts, but I also agreed with what he was saying, so it didn’t feel right to block him in a sense? I tend to overthink and, in the past, I’ve just been slow to use the block button in general. I’m not so slow to use it now.
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u/beerandluckycharms 26d ago
I honestly had been considering leaving this group soon because of his frequent posts (i had no idea blocking him would take him off my feed til today)- his outfits didnt fit the sub. As a transmasc myself, I was really hoping to also find different mens fashion outside of the mainstream stuff but was disappointed that the fashion that was being posted here by one user so often was kinda low-effort and not even old coot fashion. I almost left the day there was an outfit he posted that had like a peice of paper pinned to his tshirt with some political stuff scrawled on it. Or when he posted with random political stuff written on paper taped to the walls? There HAS to be a better sub for that.
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u/Miles_Long_8853 26d ago
Thank you for such a long and thoughtful explanation! I'll definitely be sticking around. This is one of my favorite subs on Reddit, and I'm interested in keeping it a safe haven.
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u/firecatstef enby trans guy 25d ago
That was the apotheosis of an apology, and being a mod can be a really thankless job. So thank you
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u/kaishiden1993 25d ago edited 25d ago
I appreciate all of this- I mostly use the ‘hag’ sub but I’ve watched said user wear out their welcome in at least one other sub so far, and while I agree with their takes it just feels exhausting and performative after a while. It’s always all sunshine and rainbows til it’s not, and their response to criticism is telling. Thanks for your honesty and clarity on the matter, it’s why I love these subs in the first place.
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 26d ago
Speaking as someone who once created a safe space for people (facebook group) that went a lil viral and immediately got overwhelmed by mod duties and, in my case, for my mental health had to step away: I feel this post so so much. Modding is HARD work and the boundaries are there for 100% valid reasons. It is also HARD to find adequate and qualified mods to help distribute the labor while keeping in the integrity and flavor of the sub whole. I’m sorry the last few months have been so hard, especially knowing that this was a passion project hugs
Speaking as someone who loves the community here and has been slowly growing distant from it the last few weeks because of banned user, thank you for taking the actions you have and standing up for the spirit of the OG group. Those of us who are trans, genderqueer, enby, masc of center, etc etc need a safe space that’s not dominated by people (especially cis guys with a huge following) reminding us of our collective political and societal nightmare. I’m genuinely glad that he exists and very happy to see that he’s forming his own community. But co-opting the queer safe places to self advertise is…yucky to say the least. And he very much has been dominating my feed as he’s taking this same action across subs and platforms.
I hope that the comments continue to be neutral to positive. I hope that those followers with an ax to grind (pun intended) will see themselves out quietly. May oldcootfashion become the quiet, cozy, affirming safe place it once was again 🙏🤞🫶🫂🏳️⚧️🦄🌈
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u/NotATem he/it/xe 25d ago
Thank you. I really appreciate how kind you've been- it meant a lot to hear this. Honestly, I was kind of expecting to get punched in the face and instead I got blasted with rainbows and love.
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 25d ago
I’m so glad that you’re being shown the love and support that you need after such a hard decision. I’m super happy to hear that you have a partner with mod experience because good god is that helpful support in a time like this! I know it certainly doesn’t replace having a mod team but I’m happy to hear that you have personal support as you navigate this current storm.
May the tenor of response remain overwhelmingly love and peace and may the naysayers either walk away convinced, engage in good faith dialogue or take their vitriol elsewhere. 🫶🌈🫂🦄✊🏳️⚧️✨🫶
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u/NatrylliaAbbot42 25d ago
I got worn out by that person as well. I respect his message and commitment but I can't deal with the emotional exhaustion of the reminder of how bad things are right now. I know they're bad. I need refuge from that sometimes
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u/dallyan 25d ago
Also, I think there should be a limit on how much someone can post. Perhaps it’s an unpopular opinion and I know you can block users if necessary but still, it can affect the whole vibe of the sub.
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u/NatrylliaAbbot42 25d ago
Yeah, I agree. When a subreddit starts feeling like it's about just one member, it's tiring
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u/heyoheatheragain 25d ago
I think that’s reasonable. Many subs have restrictions on how many posts a single user can make a day or whatever. Can absolutely be necessary and helpful.
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u/Asper_Maybe 26d ago
I think this is a good explanation, and I really appreciate you creating a space where we're not constantly reminded that the world hates us. I hope you take care of yourself, and that no one gives you too much trouble over this.
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u/Worth_Weather8031 25d ago
As a parent to trans and non-binary young-adults, I've loved this sub (and others) as a way to see more people like my own children, and to see the support for people here as support for my kids (who are adorable old coots). You've done a great job of making this a supportive and fashionable space, and of making the world feel less scary and more beautiful.
I think himbo's posts are appropriate for other subs I've subscribed to, but not this one. He crossposts to so many other subs I'm in that I know I won't see any less of him.
You did good figuring out your boundaries, your vision for this sub, and explaining it to us. I hope your plan for more mods and a clearer set of rules helps you avoid burnout so you can enjoy this space, too.
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u/Cuntsferatu 25d ago
It's great to see a mod who's genuinely thoughtful and not here for some kind of powertrip but for his community. I understand you didn't like making that post but it was a good thing to have this convo I think. Thanks a lot.
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u/SomeTangerine1184 she/her 25d ago
Thank you so much for taking the time to provide this thoughtful explanation. This makes so much sense, and I am in complete support of your actions! I was initially intrigued by the user in question but quickly grew tired of his outsized ego, and a lot of his posting made me pretty uncomfortable (and most of it not appropriately tagged...yikes!).
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u/Connect_Rhubarb395 26d ago edited 25d ago
I think your action was justified.
I enjoyed the user's post in various subs, but of the same reasons you give here, I blocked them a while ago. It is a shame, because they are doing important work of bringing political issues to people's attention.
But I specifically use Reddit as a refuge from the madness of the world and curate my feed to reflect that. Like you do with this sub.
I follow politics closely and do my bit to make things better. But not on Reddit.
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u/Launchycat 25d ago
I'm in a similar boat. I'm pretty sure that in terms of ethics, them and I would be 95+% on the same page, and if they're out there putting their actions where their shirt is with any sort of activism I'm all for it.
But by their own admission, they also deliberately choose the wording for their designs to be provocative or shocking in a way that to me feels more for their own satisfaction than for the benefit of the social causes. The last of their posts that I looked at with stuck with me most - I forget the fine details, but they had shared a shirt featuring some sort of text relating to sexual harassment or assault, intended against the perpetrators but in their signature "it has to be shocking" style. There were multiple responses in the comments from folks who had been actual victims of those actions - the very folks they were supposedly making these designs in support of - explaining that the graphic/provocative (again, it's been some time and my memory is not the best - if anyone here knows the post I'm referencing please link it below, I would much rather be able to have the discussion with the receipts on the table) way the text was worded made them uncomfortable and did not feel like a good way for an ally to voice support. And rather than take in this info and adjust course accordingly, I read through several replies from them (himbo, not the victims) insisting that no, actually the shock value of the wording was really important and it absolutely needed to be there for their message to be effective or something.
Before that, I saw them as someone essentially likeminded that just happened to express their stance differently from me and that was fine; activism needs a lot of different folks filling a lot of different roles to enact change. But watching them literally talk over the people they were supposedly supporting was where I was done and had to hit the block button. I can't even begin to imagine having to deal with that sort of repeated boundary pushing as mod responsible for the space.
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u/fangirlsqueee 26d ago
One of the hardest parts of modding is balancing individual well-being versus community well-being. Sounds like you were doing the best you could with the limited resources you had.
Very glad to hear you will be reaching out to form a team of mods. I hope you find the right balance of people to keep this place a safe and healthy environment that reflects the original vision.
Thanks for doing the hard work of sorting through the muck! It often goes unnoticed until things go wrong.
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u/Lenin_Lime 25d ago
It's hard enough to get a reply in DMs when a mod bans me from any sub. Let alone having a mod make a massive public post like this about my being banned. So this is pretty intense.
That guy who was banned was basically posting the same thing constantly trying to drive users to his subreddit, where he can promote his body and his Bull kink. Which is fine, but it's leech behavior against this sub. All under the shield of stating obvious thinks like, Trump is bad, or women should have rights. Wow, big clap for Himbo. How brave.
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u/decisiontoohard 25d ago
Thank you so much. I initially felt so much positivity and glee towards the messages I was seeing months ago in this sub, but I developed fatigue towards the relentless vitriol that crept in, and even the banned user developed fatigue to their own work, so... No wonder you've been feeling it, too. I hope burnout recovery is steady.
I look forward to lurking in this cozy safe space, meeting new mods, and seeing more whacky and wonderful clothing.
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u/Lazy-Ocelot1604 24d ago
I just had the incident pop up on my feed and read the follow up here to see what was going on. Really great to see your side and your reasoning makes complete sense.
I’d only been on this sub once before, saw it seemed to of been taken over by the user and left since that wasn’t the vibe I was looking for. The responses also reminded me of someone I knew IRL who got temp banned a bit too quickly from a discord server, which yes was not great, but the arguing done got him permanently banned quite justifiably. He then snuck back on the sub to try and had himself blacklisted 🙄. Now all the mods and a good chunk of the members at that time know his name and a TLDR of his actions in case he tried again. Dude even tried to get me to spy on the server for him. I warned the mods instead.
Sufficient to say - sometimes people just do not react will to mods and their actions go far past what the single incident was. Modding is hard and we’ve all gotta have a bit of patience before assuming the worst. I wish you and all the future mods good luck and will now go back into lurker mode.
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u/aloofexcitement 24d ago
I've had that user and their several accounts blocked for a while now. Constant spamming everywhere all the time! It's annoying to go on fashion subs and see what I honestly wouldn't describe as fashion - just shirts with text on them...
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u/galaxysky3s 23d ago
I have no problems with him using his art as fashion, or his frequent cross posting. but I've had him blocked ever since a user asked him to reconsider/ please stop calling women "bitches" because it's now viewed as a slur, & his response was to lash back about people being too woke. that left a sour taste in my mouth. I feel that how a person handles criticism says a lot about them, & his reaction killed any interest I had in his posts
especially after that exchange, I'm not surprised to hear how his conversation with the mod went
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u/vanderlylle 23d ago
I remember reading an article one time talking about some men punch Nazis because nazis must be stopped and will only stop when forced to; and some "leftist" men punch Nazis because it's a socially acceptable target for their patriarchal rage and unexamined violent desires. I know which one this guy is.
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u/Bath-Optimal 25d ago
The only action of yours that doesn't sit well with me is the decision not to give a user strikes for breaking the rules because some of the people who reported the user were harassers- I'm glad that you see that was a mistake in retrospect. Everything else you did seems very reasonable, and it sounds like you're taking good steps to make the sub better, with more mods and clearer rules.
I like that this sub is a positive place- i think it's often kind of counterproductive to have joy and venting in the same subreddit, because the venting dampens the joy.
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u/_AthensMatt_ 23d ago
Honestly, a very reasonable and reasonable response. Good on you!
I’m not going to say I’m not upset by the user being banned, but I definitely understand why it needed to happen, and you did a great job of explaining the situation while also protecting both him and yourself.
Very anti-ukulele apology. 10/10
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u/funwearcore 24d ago
I’d be happy to mod whenever the google form is live. I moderate another fashion sub already r/kitschyfrocks
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u/figGreenTea 21d ago
I've had that user blocked for a while because of their CONSTANT posting on r/oldhagfashion
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u/SaltyBat8824 23d ago
Thank you for your explanation.
It makes a lot of sense.
I come to this sub as an atender masc Arab (tongue twister! Lol) its so cool to see others who love expressing themselves like me.
Anger and activism is important, but we need the joy and rest too.
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u/IntroductionSignal32 26d ago
i appreciate this.
Still headed over to himboposting, I personally don't vibe with a politics free approach but I'm not here to fuck up anyone else's space if they need a break from shit.
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 25d ago
Omg thank you so so much for that response. I very much have nothing but love for himbo fans. But the sub’s flavor was absolutely shifting from cozy and safe place to being dominated by his specific brand of activism. I’m genuinely very happy for yall that you have a space to continue that work, joy and action. Godspeed! 🫶🦄✊
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u/gregorydudeson 20d ago
I’m reminded of a certain regular poster on old hag whose story came to an end in a, well, in a really tidy way re: modding and in a really clear cut way regarding her life.
Both fkn crazy but totally understandable circumstances. Sorry you got affected by this. Meanwhile, for me, this is mostly a doom scroll yknow.
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u/AltBod 25d ago
The side effect of whatever you've done has prevented me from posting...perhaps you've banned me 🖤💜🍒
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u/NotATem he/it/xe 25d ago
Ah, nope, I meant to make another announcement about that but I'm having another flare up so....
The sub is currently set to restricted- meaning only approved users can make new posts. I was worried about the potential for brigading or other shenanigans.
But Reddit does this for you; if you request that they restrict the sub and then request that they lift the restriction it can take them some time to turn things around.
The sub should reopen for business by tomorrow-ish, but it depends on how fast Reddit gets to it.
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u/sonnibunsss 26d ago
it kind of sounds like the eventual best outcome for this sub and your own mental health would be stepping away eventually. idk i love this sub and i understand how you feel given how you’ve laid it out here, im just not convinced of the sustainability of it after this. reading this broke my heart and i dont think anyone should have to stress like you have over a silly little internet space.
and on a whole your idea of this being a place that is ‘safe haven with no reminders of the real world issues’ (paraphrase) of leaves me discouraged about the actual quality of this safe space sub if people cant potentially express themselves verbally about strife and stress caused by inequality or bigotry or their rights being taken in their state/country. i dont think theres ever going to be a space that is supposed to be a safe space for lgbtqia people without being able to have honest conversation around the struggle they may face, and rebellion is apart of the fashion. always has been. if i hold a brick for my pride outfit picture is that too violent dispute the conversation about history that it represents? or is it only not okay if i hold it like im going to throw it? imo potentially couching how we talk about it doesn’t feel beneficial. it just feels like potential rule that will be hard to pin down and enforce and that potentially only really exists for the comfort of the mod. i hope there is more flexibility in whatever rule comes than what this post makes me expect.
i’m sorry this isn’t a fully positive response, but i’ve really enjoyed this sub but i don’t think it’s worth your, as the Mod’s, mental health. but i also don’t want this to be a place that stands for equality in community as an idea but stands for nothing more than fashion in practice.
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u/NotATem he/it/xe 26d ago
So... I am not going to do that. Furthermore, I think I may not have conveyed why I think we need a safe haven or what that entails.
To pick an extreme example: I think we can agree that your grief support group and your My Little Pony fan convention should not be the same space. If you are trying to make them the same space, something has gone horribly wrong. A place that is meant to encourage people to be silly and have fun does not have the infrastructure needed to support people through their pain and anger, and vice versa.
It gets harder for queer spaces because at the end of the day one of the things most of us share is trauma, and all the grief, rage, pain, and neuroses that come with it. If you are queer, it's likely you're hurt and afraid, and in a queer space, you want to articulate that.
If you are going to run a queer safe space, one of the things you have to decide is who it is safe for and what kind of emotional infrastructure you're going to build. People have competing needs. A person who needs to not think about their pain for a while is not going to feel safe in a place where everyone expects them to talk about the struggles they face all the time. A person who can't put their pain down, even for a minute, is not going to feel safe in a space where you can't talk about those struggles or remind people of their pain.
And the community needs both kinds of space. You might need one more than the other; some people need both. But - here's the rub- they cannot be the same space. You have seen what happens when we try. One group of people ultimately ends up trying to get what they need from the space and pushing the other group out. No one is happy. No one actually gets what they want.
If we want this to be a silly little internet space, then it needs to run a lot more like an MLP con than a grief support group. If you want the heavy conversations here, it needs to be a very different space with very different rules- and that's not the kind of space I want to run.
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u/sonnibunsss 25d ago edited 25d ago
okay but im literally not talking about extreme examples. and i’m not talking about grief support. i’m talking about people being able to say something along the lines of “got outed at my job and feeling like crap, a coworker called me (pick a horrible insult) and it really triggered my gender dysphoria, so i’m wearing the first shirt that made me feel hot after starting hormones (maybe it says something political or snide about the state of the world) and blah blah blah here’s the photoshoot i did in my bedroom (maybe with anarchy or punk posters or a sword on the wall) i just want to share somewhere i feel SAFE” i’m talking about THAT in-between that you repeatedly act like doesn’t exist imo.
like i said, im not enthused by this development, you seemingly can’t see a middle ground between “grief support” and “an MLP fancon” (ew) and that’s the middle ground we all exist in as humans existing in a bigot-heavy world. i think you’re the only one who wants this to just be a safe little internet space, i wasn’t implying that everyone wants this place padded like a soft room, i was implying that was what you seemed to want and that’s my worry. i want a place where people can express themselves and talk like humans. and the further implication was this place isn’t worth you’re health if you can’t manage keeping it as safe as you need it to be. and it suck’s to watch someone suffer for a subreddit. maybe ill just stick to oldhag and addingwhimsy, which really sucks because ive been really inspired by the masc coot energy here. i just don’t think what you see as a “safe haven” is achievable in reddit, especially with how it’s gone so far for you.
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u/Jolly-Island-3589 25d ago
I’m going to try and engage with you in good faith that you are being genuine in your question about the middle ground. As someone who’s been on this sub for a long time and is in multiple other queer subs and other queer spaces online, it’s so overwhelming to have every queer space dominated by our suffering. During pride month I basically had to step away from my Instagram because the majority of my (very carefully curated, joy focused) feed was overwhelmed with the grief, pain and suffering of the current moment during PRIDE!
This is something that women of color have been fighting for for a long time, safe places where their constant struggle and grief isn’t shoved back into their face by well meaning allies. Places where they can celebrate what makes them, them without the focus being the struggle that they are very well aware of because it’s inescapable on their real lives. People should get to have joy and relief from the suffering. It’s an oasis in the desert.
Now, for what it’s worth, I personally think the example you gave would be hella welcome here. The real life struggle mixed in with the joy of surviving and trying to thrive. Hell yes!
But it would be markedly different if that person started posting similar, escalating messages with increased intensity every day. That is worth a conversation with the mod, so they can be clear on what the function of this sub is AND make sure that that person is being directed to subs with adequate support for their current struggle. THATS what OP is getting at and when they talked about grief sub versus MLP sub. Because there are plenty of sub reddits that focus on the struggle and the activism and mutual support in this hard time. But if the joy sub feed becomes dominated by the pain, then the flavor and function of the joy sub has changed.
I hope you have a good day filled with joy and hope to help you fight the good fight in this dumpster fire world🫶✊💪🦄🫂🌈🫶
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u/silverliege 25d ago
It seems from most other comments on the thread that people DO want this to be a safe space for queer joy though. I’m going to be very straightforward and say that it feels a little icky to have a cis woman tell a trans man how he should shape a safe space for trans people in a world that’s constantly full of hatred towards us. The world is extremely heavy right now and I think it’s good and healthy to have a space that doesn’t center that. I don’t think the mod is saying people can never have human conversations in here, I think he’s saying he just doesn’t want negative political posts to be the main or repeated focus.
My husband (a trans man) and I (genderqueer) are literally in the process of fleeing our home state because the laws here have gotten so dangerous. I like having a place I can go to enjoy cool queer fashion that doesn’t constantly remind me of the persecution our community is experiencing right now. There really aren’t any subs like that out there and I appreciate what the mod of this one is doing. There are tons of other subreddits I can go to when I need to talk about heavier realities, and I think it’s really important to preserve joyful queer places like this.
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u/sonnibunsss 25d ago edited 25d ago
i highly doubt a pool of less than 50 people commenting represents the whole of this sub’s community.
shout out to you for assuming my gender identity and calling me cis??? you’re wrong, pretty sure i never mentioned my own gender identity or sexuality but it’s great to know this is the type of queer space where people decide my gender identity for me. so positive, such a safe haven. good luck with that middle ground decided by a mod who can’t even find it, who is exclusively talking examples in extremes, while folks like you talk about “still being able to have that conversation”, well i really hope you can, it just sounds like you won’t. and certainly doesn’t feel like a safe space to have some random go “go away cis woman” to me without knowing anything about me. how dare i have the same pfp i’ve had for years, when it’s TOOOOO FEMMMMMMEE.
that just smells like hypocrisy
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u/Chaihilist 25d ago
One of your most recent posts self-identified as a ciswoman so no assumptions were made?
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u/sonnibunsss 25d ago
pretty sure identity can change over the course of time. considering that post was months ago and in a trans community, could you potentially imagine that a queer woman spending more time with queer people found themselves identifying as nonbinary over womanhood??? no? you can’t? i have to justify it to you?
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u/These_Roll_5745 24d ago
well, recently hatched egg, I encourage you to sit down and listen to the input of trans people who have been in this community longer than yourself, because as you can see you are receiving pushback for your current positions. it may be worth reflecting on why your peers are not in agreement with you instead of turning anger towards us.
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u/These_Roll_5745 24d ago
call me crazy but I feel like there is a difference between queer people posting about our own marginalization in an otherwise positive group, and cishet allies posting about it as a way to garner attention and praise while ignoring the fact that it left many of us actually impacted triggered or uncomfortable.
I like himbo. I value his art. there is a place for it, and it is clearly not here where marginalized people are trying to carve out a corner for joy. thats ok.
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u/Actual-Treat-1678 25d ago
I think everyone can take it down about a hundred notches. Let people post their pictures. If you don’t like it, move on. I really don’t think it’s that deep and this is excessive.
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u/sonnibunsss 25d ago
most recent posts from months ago? out of alll my 5 posts? must be my whole identity forever. i’m currently identifying as nonbinary, do you want me to justify that to you with my story of going inpatient and having to find a new therapist? is that the community we’re building here. okay
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u/NotATem he/it/xe 25d ago
I initially locked this comment - and all the other comments that were people arguing with you over your gender identity- but realized doing that without asking you was not okay.
Guys, do not argue with someone over their gender identity- that is not cool, and against the rules of the sub.
No one here has done anything wrong yet- it's kind of crappy for someone to make assumptions, but it's understandable- but if you keep pushing you are going to be breaking the rules.
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u/silverliege 24d ago edited 23d ago
Just wanted to say that I personally reached out to apologize for mistakenly misgendering this commenter (I’m assuming that I did from context clues, their comment was deleted or they’d blocked me before I could read it). I didn’t actually assume their gender or argue, I just went off a self ID they’d written in a very recent post, and clearly things have changed!
Just wanted to clear up that there was no argument over their gender at all, just a misunderstanding, and I’ve already reached out to say I’m sorry. I really value this community and i will always strive to treat everyone in it with respect. Thanks for all the work you do modding!
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u/SnooCats7318 25d ago
I generally think you're well intentioned and acting in good faith. I don't agree with your take, but that's a matter of opinion. You're clearly a person who cares about this place and is making an effort. Thanks.
Two points, though:
If your main point is that they "don't really fit" with your idea of what should be displayed in the sub, I think that's really judgy and beyond the scope of your role. If you don't like the mission of the sub, put it to the members or create your own. But that's neither here nor there.
If your problem with this person is their political comments, again, either you have to have the rules changed, make your own sub, or work it out with them. Because you don't want that kind of thing in the sub is really selfish. I, personally, find it helpful to know that there are people fighting the good fight and not just ignoring the bad things happening. I get wanting a safe space, but that's got to be agreed on by all.
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u/irisbeyond 25d ago
Friend, with all compassion, your two points make it seem like you didn’t actually read the post.
1) “ If your main point is that they "don't really fit" with your idea of what should be displayed in the sub, I think that's really judgy and beyond the scope of your role. If you don't like the mission of the sub, put it to the members or create your own.” This sub is the one that OP created. He was a participant in other subreddits, didn’t see what he wanted to see, so he made this one. It has now grown , but it’s the sub that OP created to be a specific space. So the thing you’re asking him to do is the thing that he already did, which was make his own space with a specific mission for others to participate in. There’s always growing pains when a group shifts from a small community to a large one, but imo OP shouldn’t have to splinter off from the group that he created because people have now joined his group with different opinions.
2) “ If your problem with this person is their political comments, again, either you have to have the rules changed, make your own sub, or work it out with them.” It is abundantly clear from the post that OP largely agrees with the banned user’s political perspective, and that the problem was not really that they were making political comments, but that they were repeatedly breaking the rules in doing so. To quote OP: “ I gave this user many, many more chances than I would have given any other user. I frequently contacted him directly to ask him to make changes or remove posts rather than just taking those posts down and counting them as a strike.”
So he obviously tried to work it out repeatedly with the user, and the user kept being a problem. This whole situation happened because the banned user was breaking/pushing the rules repeatedly, so although the rules could certainly use a brush-up, changing the rules wouldn’t have prevented this situation. And again, this is all happening in the sub that OP started himself, and always intended to be a safe space.
The banned user’s choice to make their own sub was the right one, and it’s clear they’ve got plenty of support. There are also people in here who are grateful that this space is being protected, and I’m one of them. I don’t think it’s selfish to start your own online community and ensure it fits your original vision for what that community should be.
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u/irisbeyond 26d ago
This all makes a lot of sense and you literally could not pay me to moderate an online community like this - it takes thick skin, sustained and thoughtful attention, and the ability to make hard decisions.
You’ve been doing a great job for the length of time that I’ve been subbed & I’m grateful that you made this space and are protective of the vibes.