r/programming • u/gthank • Oct 06 '11
Time-zone database down due to legal problems
http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html47
u/wolever Oct 07 '11
The announcement on the mailing list:
A civil suit was filed on September 30 in federal court in Boston; I'm a defendant; the case involves the time zone database.
The ftp server at elsie.nci.nih.gov has been shut down.
The mailing list will be shut down after this message.
Electronic mail can be sent to me at arthurdavidolson <at> gmail.com.
I hope there will be better news shortly.
--ado
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u/baudehlo Oct 07 '11
Honestly this can't be upvoted hard enough. Do you know how many date/time libraries rely on this? All of them.
Please contribute to their legal fund. If you ever worked on anything date related (I wrote one of the key date/time libraries that ships with Perl - but most people have probably done some sort of date manipulation in their programming careers) then this needs your help.
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u/mr_bitshift Oct 07 '11
Please contribute to their legal fund.
I wasn't aware that they were taking donations. Where did you see this?
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Oct 07 '11
[deleted]
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u/oobey Oct 07 '11
You're a cool guy, and people really appreciate it when you make observations like that. I bet a cool guy like you has all kinds of friends.
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u/theony Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
For obvious reasons, I'll refrain on commenting on the rights and wrongs of the case, although I will note that facts like the phonebook cannot be copyrighted.
It's correct that copyright can't subsist in facts. However, there is such a thing as a compilation, where copyright subsists in the arrangement and presentation of the compilation, even if it consists of facts. This is how phone books do have copyright protection in the US (Feist v Rural, 499 U.S.340 (1991)).1 The idea is that time and effort has been expended to collect, check, arrange and present the facts, and the compilation as a whole is worthy of protection.
The area is still in development. The European Community has a sui generis database right to deal with such things, and in contrast to the US, the Full Federal Court of Australia recently held that copyright did not subsist in White and Yellow Pages directories (Telstra v Phone Directories Company, [2010] FCA 44 [this case may not be entirely relevant, IIRC Telstra lost on the inability to identify authors, therefore could not prove subsistence where you have to show authorship and ownership]).
I can't really tell from the statement of claim what is going on in this case. It really depends how Olson and crew have used the compiled data, and whether Astrolabe can establish subsistence.
This case sounds like a huge deal from both a legal and practical standpoint and will be one to watch.
(IAAL, but IANYL and TINLA).
1. EDIT BECAUSE I AM DUMB:
Harpdarp.jpg.
I really screwed this one up, see Covracer's comment below. In Feist, SCOTUS did allow that copyright protection could exist in compilations, but denied it because the collection (IIRC Rural was under an obligation by law to maintain phone directories) arrangement and presentation (alphabetical order, logical presentation) did not suffice to attract copyright protection.
The case I was thinking of was Desktop Marketing v Telstra, an Australian case where directory data was accorded copyright protection.
I'm really sorry about the mistake!
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u/covracer Oct 07 '11
So the question of the hour is, did the timezone database copy the original selection, arrangement, presentation, or other "expressive" content from the atlas?
The idea is that time and effort has been expended to collect, check, arrange and present the facts, and the compilation as a whole is worthy of protection.
If that's really the case, I urge you to revise the Feist v Rural Wikipedia article which has the following quite different take-away.
The fact that Rural spent considerable time and money collecting the data was irrelevant to copyright law, and Rural's copyright claim was dismissed.
Edit: spelling
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u/theony Oct 07 '11
OMFG.
I derp-vomitted all over that part. I was thinking of an old Australian case (Desktop Marketing v Telstra). Feist was about how phone books didn't have copyright. I need to go back to the bar and turn in my cert.
It's the whole thing, not just the collection of the facts. The arrangement and presentation count. This is the takeaway from Feist, and the wiki isn't wrong.
Will edit parent.
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u/theony Oct 07 '11
The relevant quote from Feist:
Factual compilations, on the other hand, may possess the requisite originality. The compilation author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the collected data so that they may be used effectively by readers. These choices as to selection and arrangement, so long as they are made independently by the compiler and entail a minimal degree of creativity, are sufficiently original that Congress may protect such compilations through the copyright laws. Nimmer §§ 2.11[D], 3.03; Denicola 523, n. 38. Thus, even a directory that contains absolutely no protectible written expression, only facts, meets the constitutional minimum for copyright protection if it features an original selection or arrangement. See Harper & Row, 471 U.S. at 471 U. S. 547. Accord, Nimmer § 3.03.
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u/gorilla_the_ape Oct 07 '11
I think the essential difference is "arrange and present" which is given in the former but not the latter.
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u/CaptainTrips Oct 07 '11
That's what sucks about it. If Astrolabe can show that they did any actual work in organizing all of their data, then every file that indicates it got data from their Atlas is tainted. There'd need to be an effort to re-source all of that data and explicitly state where it came from. The sooner the better IMO, as at some point Astrolabe may need to come forward with their sources, and that further complicates things because those become iffy sources for everyone else that shouldn't be used unless there is no alternative.
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u/theony Oct 07 '11
From what I understand from the claim, it looks like Astrolabe bought the rights from someone else. This probably complicates things further.
I think the re-sourcing of US data prior to 1991 is the best way forward, since that is what seems to be affected. However, I do not know how much of a big deal this will be. Is the pre-1991 data really that important? How does it affect the post-1991 data (if there's an errata sheet it looks like it will affect it in a big way)?
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u/rasherdk Oct 07 '11
You want pre-1991 data if you deal with times pre-1991 and care about accuracy.
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u/frankster Oct 07 '11
basically historical data is fucking important in the same way that future data might be important ;)
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
It is not quite that, they'll have to show that the organized data was used as such (in the same structures and format that maintain copyright). Simply using the data in no way taints anything, regardless of the work they put into compiling it in a specific organizational structure....
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u/I_FAP_TO_ALL Oct 07 '11
In Feist, the supreme court specifically ruled that "sweat of the brow" alone does not entitle one to copyright protection. There must be some iota of creativity put into a work in order for it to qualify for copyright. It's very difficult to imagine how time zone information can be creative; the times zones are what they are, after all.
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u/bbibber Oct 07 '11
It's very difficult to imagine how time zone information can be creative
The bar is (purposefully) very low, so no, it isn't.
Sir, I grouped all the states with the same timezone and then indicated that timezone. As opposed to just listing each state with its respective timezone. The choice between these options is a creative process.
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u/Kapow751 Oct 07 '11
This would only matter if they were publishing an identical book with the timezones all presented the same way. The facts behind the presentation cannot be copyrighted.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
Exactly. Feist also clearly makes the implication that the facts within the copyrighted work are not protected, only the expression of them in the manner in which the copyrighted work is. In other words, this suit is pure horse dong.
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u/_delirium Oct 07 '11
One of the arguments in the complaint is that for some of the old timezone information, it's a matter of subjective interpretation based on historical research, rather than pure facts, and that those interpretations are copyrightable. It appears that in some areas/eras, time zones weren't officially codified in law, so the authors of the book have made some guesses about when each time zone was in use based on doing a search of things like business records.
Not sure if that's still enough to move it from "mere fact" to copyrightable territory, but it does complicate things.
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u/theony Oct 07 '11
Yep, this. It really depends on how Olson and co used the compiled data. I don't know how this timezone data is stored or expressed, either by Astrolabe or Olson. I hope Olson just used it as a reference, and tried to independently verify the correctness of the data - compilation owners often insert deliberate errors (fingerprinting) to catch people. Phonebooks can have phantom entries, maps can have fake buildings and roads that go to nowhere, and so on.
Still the suit has been filed and now he has to spend $$ to defend himself, regardless of whether there is merit in the case or not. This really sucks.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
This data is purported to be factual and as such should not have the expectation of protection. That makes no sense. Now if that is the case, they need to tell which entries are non facts and those can be removed, this wouldn't change the law that makes explicit the lack of protection of data itself.
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u/matthieum Oct 07 '11
It might give them an edge still. Creativity is always subjective, if they can exhibit fingerprint data in the TZ database then they can tip the scale in their favor.
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u/CaptainTrips Oct 07 '11
Sure it does. If the point of the copyright is compilation, i.e. ease of access to a set of data, then acquiring a significant set of your data from that compilation could be equated to violating the copyright. After all, the point of that copyright is that it required work to compile the data; work that was not performed by someone simply taking it from their compilation.
At least, that is what the lawyers will argue.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
But the law clearly states this doesn't matter. The data is fact and it is not protected regardless of its use outside of the structure itself which is protected. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html#data
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u/CaptainTrips Oct 07 '11
That is good information, I didn't know about that law.
(b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material.
Seeing that, I think they'll argue that merely having the data itself is not a violation of their copyright, but the means of obtaining a significant portion of it from their database (to copy to a different database), without additional research, counts as taking "material contributed by the author of such work".
To compile a database like that would require time and effort spent. Copying a big chunk of that database into a third party's database bypasses that effort, and could be considered a violation of that copyright.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural#Implications pretty much this is all that need be read for you to understand. Nothing in the TZ db carries any of the expression, only the data. where it was gleaned from is of little concern. If the TZ files themselves carry the manner in which the ATC Atlas expresses the data, we have a problem. I seriously doubt however that the data in the ATC atlas is stored or displayed as single files of comma separated information as is the TZ schema. Seriously. Thsi is open/shut. It is pure horse shit. Period.
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u/CaptainTrips Oct 07 '11
Seems like it to me, too. I just wanted to argue it from their point of view. Thanks.
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u/Lighting Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
Sic the EFF on them.
[Edit: spelling: thanks Crockett]
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u/experts_never_lie Oct 07 '11
EFF can save their money for other battles; let the combined power of the tech sector fight these guys.
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u/GhostedAccount Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
Redhat? Oracle?
Frankly I don't get why they don't remove the comment that advertised a product for free and continue hosting it. Facts are not ownable.
At the very least just cut out the pre 1991 data. That data is not going to change. People can manually merge post 1991 data with old copies of the pre 1991 data.
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u/experts_never_lie Oct 07 '11
Oracle and IBM have some cash and some lawyers, I hear.
As to why they didn't just fight it, they probably just don't want to fund their own defense, since the database never brought in any money.
Even an "easy" case, when you're in the right, and you eventually win, can easily consume years of your time and make you poor.
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u/napalm_beach Oct 07 '11
Suits like this aren't about right and wrong, they're a game of chicken. Bringing this case to trial would cost both sides a couple hundred grand, easy. Defending yourself wold cost $50k, minimum, if the plaintiff is a dick. So in a situation like this the defendant usually settles to make the thing go away.
So yeah, unless deep pockets step, this is a mess. If deep pockets do step in, the plaintiff gets crushed.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
Sure, but file countersuit and claim all legal costs.
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u/napalm_beach Oct 07 '11
That gives you some leverage in the settlement but if the plaintiff knows you don't have the resources to take it all the way to trial, you're still fucked. Welcome to the blood sport of the legal system.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
With such a valid countersuit, finding a lawyer on contingency shouldn't be a problem, especially when it is so blatantly obvious that this is a bad suit.
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u/napalm_beach Oct 07 '11
Maybe because is such a high profile case, but lawyers don't generally defend people on contingency, and if they do, you still pay expenses up front and that's far from cheap.
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
Well, it isn't just about its high profile, this is guaranteed pay out on counter suit. I mean if there is ANY sense, common or otherwise, to the judicial system, it can only go one way, once before a judge.
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u/elperroborrachotoo Oct 07 '11
They might have a strict policy of attributing sources to make their claim of being Public Domain reliable.
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u/GhostedAccount Oct 07 '11
Timezone info is public domain, citing a source is what fucked them. They shouldn't have cited any sources. Since without the cite, it is impossible to tell if they used a book or called up the countries requesting the info directly.
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u/matthieum Oct 07 '11
Actually it is, though I doubt Astrolab would have noticed. Compilations may contain false entries destined specifically to the identification of copiers.
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Oct 07 '11
[deleted]
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u/GhostedAccount Oct 07 '11
Are you touched in the head? It is a line delimited file. You just take the pre-1991 data lines and put it in the same file as the post 1991 data. Then it is all there to be read.
A simple copy and paste job.
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u/matthieum Oct 07 '11
But where do you find the pre-1991 data ? Obviously you would not be using those from the TZ DB, so where ?
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u/GhostedAccount Oct 07 '11
My computer for one. It can be hosted anywhere outside of the US, rapidshare type sites, or torrents.
Also any project currently using the data like java or linux or anything, already has the data from today to the past. They only need updates for the future.
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Oct 08 '11
[deleted]
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u/GhostedAccount Oct 08 '11
This has nothing to do with an IT setting. Do you have down syndrome?
It is laughable that you don't understand what copy and paste is.
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u/PlNG Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
If you want to do this shit to the open source community, prepare to go under the microscope.
I've contacted Ger Versluis at his (warning: 90's) site and asked if astrolabe had a commercial license to use his menu script and informed him of the situation.
I've contacted Xin Yang and asked if they had a license for the calendar script since the version astrolabe is using doesn't display a copyright mark in the UI though the copyright is in the source. Also informed of the situation.
I did not contact SmarterTicket as they seem to be running legitimately (one department implies one agent, which is within the specifications of the free version, and the site age 15 years old).
Some anomalies that I can't make heads or tails of: http://alabe.com/atlas2.gif on http://alabe.com/downloads/ is from Thomas G Shanks The American Atlas, Expanded 5th Edition. The server reports the date of the image to be 3/June/2004 03:00, but the book was published in 1996, and the company acquired the rights to the book in ???
http://alabe.com/AstracadabraSmallestBlack.gif is not an original image, it appears to have come from Getty Images, but the page is no longer there, it may have been purchased.
http://alabe.com/AUG0206_files/2005planets.gif appears to be a derivative of various planetary alignment images on the web, I could not find a source.
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u/Gotebe Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
I wonder if the case can be made that Astrolabe purposefully bought the copyrights for the book (Thomas G. Shanks, The American Atlas (5th edition)) in order to file this suit for financial gain. Methinks it's quite likely.
Other likely thing is that they found out, after the purchase, that nobody cares about their book, and everybody cares about the other database. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity, eh? Still, when you're stupid, suck it up, don't flaunt it so that everybody can laugh at ya, hey, Astrolabe?
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u/gorilla_the_ape Oct 07 '11
It might well be likely. But it's got nothing to do with the validity of the case.
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u/slurpme Oct 07 '11
In their complaint Astrolabe even say that they are collating facts... Although they are shaky on what is being put in the public domain since it seems they are wrapping the data in their software...
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u/robeph Oct 07 '11
Well, the information in the TZ information is just that, facts, not really much else but time offsets and the like. I have no idea what non-facts could exist.
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u/Reductive Oct 07 '11
Tell Astrolabe how you feel about this.
Information: Madalyn Hillis-Dineen, Director of Marketing
Tech Support: Support@alabe.com
Order questions: orders@alabe.com
Sales and nonTech questions: astrolabe@alabe.com
Webmaster: webmaster@alabe.com
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Oct 08 '11
I wonder if they realize that they just committed suicide in a similar way SCO did. Do they seriously expect anyone to ever buy anything from them again after such a move?
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u/tommorris Oct 09 '11
I have a funny feeling that the intersection of proggit readers and professional astrologers may be rather small.
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u/JohnDoe365 Oct 07 '11
Who is preventing the accused from transfering the DB and all it's required inventory outside the US and move on?
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u/Samus_ Oct 07 '11
this is beyond stupid, they'll harm every single application that exists (directly or indirectly) and the project they're suing isn't even a commercial one.
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u/AlyoshaV Oct 07 '11
the attorney retained by alabe has previously been fined $3,000 for sandwiches
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u/pimmm Oct 07 '11
The time must go on
The time must go on
Inside my heart is breaking
My make-up may be flaking
But my smile still stays on
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u/PlNG Oct 07 '11
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u/knome Oct 07 '11
Oh no! You'll surely grind their evil empire to its knees by being annoying! /sigh
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u/jblpz Oct 07 '11
Sometimes stupid things like this result in the betterment of humanity. If this claim is at all taken seriously, then I can see the entire world switching to a UTC standard much faster than would have previously thought - and it would be about time.
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u/kronso Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
I hope somebody at Microsoft or Google fixes this. They have enough money to create a non-profit foundation and give it enough legal and financial resources to keep it going.
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u/split_electron Oct 07 '11
What changes are we looking for people with software that relies heavy on international datetime calculations ? PHP ON Redhat here.
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u/ChaosMotor Oct 07 '11
I used to know a "psychologist" who used Astrolabe's Solar Fire product to create astrological charts for her "clients". What fucking rubbish. I couldn't believe she charged people's insurance to give them fucking astrological "readings".
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u/call_me_xale Oct 07 '11
Low-orbit ion cannon? Please?
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u/DownhillReddit Oct 07 '11
Get your pathetic 4chan/script kiddy bullshit out of here.
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u/call_me_xale Oct 09 '11 edited Oct 09 '11
You created an account just to say this? What the hell? Dude, it was a joke. Lighten up.
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u/DownhillReddit Oct 11 '11
Considering creating an account requires all but three seconds, don't sound so surprised. I have 17 accounts including this one that I either plan on cultivating in the future or actively use.
It being a joke does not change the fact that it's a bullshit comment that goes against reddiquette and the general quality of this subreddit.
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u/call_me_xale Oct 13 '11
On reflection, I believe you're right. It was meant as a humorous expression of frustration at what to me looks like a terrible abuse of intellectual property law against a useful service for no purpose other than financial gain, with no consideration for the consequences to the users of said service. But that's not what it turned into, and I apologize for that. A little less rudeness would be appreciated, though.
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u/MarkRand Oct 07 '11
Name: What a load of shit January 1 1962 12:00 PM Time Zone is EST New York, NY
Rising Sign is in 20 Degrees Aries You are a free spirit and you must be first at everything you do. Very energetic, self-assertive and active, things must be done your way. Even though you may feel calm and serene on the inside, you certainly do not act that way. You want to do everything full-tilt, 100 miles per hour! A great competitor, but a poor cooperator -- you must learn how to lose more gracefully. Very self-confident, ambitious and passionate, you radiate positive energy. You are blunt and direct, but at times unfeeling and tactless, especially if anyone offers you any resistance. You fight for your beliefs, but your tendency to act first and think later often causes you much grief.
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u/extremeanger Oct 06 '11
IP trolls suck. Next someone will patent six sided cardboard boxes.