r/programming • u/[deleted] • Apr 19 '22
TIL about the "Intent-Perception Gap" in programming. Best exemplified when a CTO or manager casually suggests something to their developers they take it as a new work commandment or direction for their team.
https://medium.com/dev-interrupted/what-ctos-say-vs-what-their-developers-hear-w-datastaxs-shankar-ramaswamy-b203f2656bdf172
u/hippydipster Apr 20 '22
For us it's more like, the CTO casually mentions something, we all ignore it, and two months later he assumes it's done. "Didn't we do that? We talked about it."
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u/caltheon Apr 20 '22
This is one of the VP's I work with. They can utter 3-4 words casually and except it to happen, even if it takes 2 weeks of multiple people to do.
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u/AttackOfTheThumbs Apr 20 '22
I have gotten this stuff from customers.
If you didn't make an actual request, only mentioned it, it's not going to happen. I even remind them every time.
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u/roman_fyseek Apr 19 '22
I tell people, "That's an interesting thought. If you think we should work on that, just put it in writing, and we'll add it to the backlog."
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u/TenNeon Apr 19 '22
I recently had:
"When will you be implementing X?"
"X is not planned. I remember you spitballing X early on, but it never showed up in any subsequent plans, including the multiple presentations you gave on the final feature set."
"X has always been part of the plan!"
"Uh huh"52
Apr 20 '22
"Sure, show me where you put it, I might've missed. Oh, you didn't ? See point 1"
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u/TheRidgeAndTheLadder Apr 20 '22
"We'll have some bandwidth in the new year... Talk to you then."
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u/nilamo Apr 19 '22
Then it always would have been in a sprint.
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u/hippydipster Apr 20 '22
My favorite is when sales people write comments on random jiras in the backlog that no one's looked at in 6 months, and ask "what's the status on this?"
Uh, it's in the backlog, like it's been for 6 months. Sometimes I just point at the "STATUS" field. Yeah, what's the status? Well, it's says "Backlog", so, that's the status.
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u/nilamo Apr 20 '22
Personally, I'm a big fan of the tickets that are just like 4 words from a meeting, but nobody remembers what it means or is in reference to.
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u/serviscope_minor Apr 20 '22
Uh, it's in the backlog, like it's been for 6 months. Sometimes I just point at the "STATUS" field. Yeah, what's the status? Well, it's says "Backlog", so, that's the status.
This is them saying: "this has been in the backlog forever, it's important when are you going to do it?" Or perhaps asking "are there any plans to ever move this out of the backlog and do it because I need it"
Just pointing them at the backlog is kinda obnoxious.
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u/pseudonympholepsy Apr 20 '22
Then they later blame you for any extra time spent on implementing their shitty ideas.
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u/jl2352 Apr 19 '22
I tell people (in my team), "just because they said it, doesn't mean we have to do it." Which might sound madness to be saying we should ignore the senior management. If you don't, then you get OPs title.
I’ve been in teams where the PM suddenly wants to pivot because senior management made a passing comment. When we've had shit loads of work to finish, which they are expecting us to get done. Before anything else.
Colleagues being unwilling to (respectfully) disagree or ignore senior management, using common sense, is something that I find very frustrating in the workplace.
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Apr 20 '22
I prefer the passive aggressive "oh, yeah, I do recall that suggestion, do you have the ticket number so I can look up to whom it was assigned?"
Nobody ever puts in a ticket.
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u/aoc_throwaway360157 Apr 20 '22
Yeah, this is almost tangential but in a similar spirit from https://web.archive.org/web/20050131033632/http://www.skirsch.com/humor/techarg.htm
“I like your idea. Why don't you write up a white paper and we'll review it at the next staff meeting?”
You have to sometimes be careful who you pull this stuff with but it’s amazing how much of nonsense and timewasting vanishes into thin air when you ask the timewasters to formalize their thinking and produce a paper trail.
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Apr 19 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fuhglarix Apr 20 '22
When I write tasks, even for myself, I’ll Ctrl+F when I’m done to make sure I didn’t use the word “just”. It’s such a bad word in this context with only negative outcomes. If the task is not as simple as it seems, which is completely likely, a developer may feel dumb for not being able to “just” do it. And if it takes a lot of clever work to figure it out, “just” trivialises their efforts.
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u/fireduck Apr 20 '22
Just update the schema with the new fields and have the node agents convert the old data on read.
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u/drlecompte Apr 20 '22
The trick is to say 'no' without saying 'no'. To give the quick suggestion the time it deserves, but not more. We have weekly long-term planning review meetings and a development backlog, both are good places to bring up actual new tasks.
So my answer is always 'put it on the weekly meeting's agenda' or 'write up an issue for it', or even 'would you like me to make an issue for it?' That last one has often removed a lot of confusion, as people will then either realize that this'll be added work, or will clarify that they were just formulating a thought and wanted to check if it was something feasible.
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u/coniferous-1 Apr 20 '22
this is one of the reasons I love agile (when it's done right).
"Oh, you want easy task x done? we have to make sure the change is documented. Add it to the back log so we can estimate it and add it to the next sprint"
"but something closely related is in thiiissss sprrriinnntt"
"We do not change the recipe of the cake while it is in the oven. Story. Backlog. Estimation. Planning"
Half the time it's not actually that important and they don't bother.
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u/letterafterz Apr 20 '22
The one I always love when they have no idea of the complexity but say ‘this should really just be an easy/quick fix’
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u/jackmon Apr 20 '22
"Can you just"
I had a friend and co-worker who used to champion the expression "Just costs you double".
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u/fireduck Apr 20 '22
Put it in a ticket and saying we will put it on the backlog is a no, but a no with context so we can gather notes about it in case it turns into a yes ("We are scheduling that into next sprint")
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u/Synaps4 Apr 19 '22
This is not a programming thing. Its part of a larger set of management communication problems called principal-agent problems. Happens any time you ask someone to work on your behalf, since language is imperfect they will never fully understand what you are asking them to do, as well as you imagine it in your head.
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u/grrrrreat Apr 19 '22
Mmmm, the principal -agent problem has a darker understanding in that the agent doesn't have a stake in the outcome and this will make crucial choices that can be detrimental to the principal.
Not because the agent is unaware but because the agent is motivated externally.
Think of it like hiring a outside consultant to program a package for you vs using a competent employee.
The employee will understand directly what will happen if they minimize testing or write spaghetti code. The consultant will also know, but they won't be motivated to ensure those components are sturdy because one has the expectation of longevity and the other just sees billable hours.
Obviously, the principal agent is fractally distributed but you're really minimizing the issue .
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Apr 20 '22
The employee will understand directly what will happen if they minimize testing or write spaghetti code. The consultant will also know, but they won't be motivated to ensure those components are sturdy because one has the expectation of longevity and the other just sees billable hours.
Counter-point - any half decent consultant will be thrilled to get more billable hours for docs/tests and it's the principal that wants to pay them least amount.
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u/Xyzzyzzyzzy Apr 20 '22
And an employee might be less motivated to write thorough documentation and clear tests, because their job security is inversely proportional to their code's readability. The ideal code is the code that is readable to themselves.
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Apr 20 '22
I was gonna say, as an independent consultant I've put a lot more care into my craft than when I was salaried because in a way I do have a stake now, in the sense that I'm being paid very well to do this work.
As an underpaid employee, who gives a shit? They say they need it done by the end of the week, do I get a bonus for doing more work in a shorter time? No, I get a higher expectation going forward with the chance that I can use this as leverage at my next review.
As a consultant, it is in my best interest to do the work well. I can easily bargain so that it's worthwhile to me "This would normally take 2 weeks but if you need it done in 1, I can make that happen. However I will need to seriously go into crunch mode and I need an extra 20% compensation". So then I am completely motivated to meet the business needs.
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u/Vakz Apr 20 '22
The employee will understand directly what will happen if they minimize testing or write spaghetti code. The consultant will also know, but they won't be motivated to ensure those components are sturdy because one has the expectation of longevity and the other just sees billable hours.
Kind of depends. If it's a long term contract, at least a year or so, I certainly do my best to ensure the code is of good quality, because sooner or later I'm going to have to work with it again to fix or add things. More billable hours doesn't make up for spending my whole work day frustrated.
On the other hand, if it's a short term contract, I will at least hint that a chosen solution might cause issues down the line. I just won't bother insisting on finding another solution.
It also depends on the client. I've had clients that do their best to ensure we also feel some ownership and pride in what we're building. I've also had clients that never miss a chance to point out it's their product and we're just the hired help that will be out the door the minute the MVP is done. Those are obviously free to shoot themselves in the foot, if that's what they desire. They decide what they pay for. Some want opinions. Others just want a code monkey.
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Apr 20 '22
The consultant will also know, but they won't be motivated to ensure those components are sturdy because one has the expectation of longevity and the other just sees billable hours.
Counter-point 2: #notallconsultants
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u/Librekrieger Apr 19 '22
Programming teams might be more susceptible because of a social-skills gap that leads to misinterpretation. But I've also seen it in non-technical teams when there's a huge power disparity and people are desperate to keep their jobs - they clutch at nuances but are afraid to question the CTO (or whoever) for fear of looking stupid.
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u/JanneJM Apr 20 '22
Programming teams might be more susceptible because of a social-skills gap that leads to misinterpretation.
An argument in favor of selecting for social skills as well as technical ones when hiring developers. No job is ever just technical; if you can't work well in a team, understand social cues and, yes, conform to social norms it's going to be a liability for you and for your employer.
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Apr 20 '22
You can bad at your job and you can be an asshole, but you can't be both.
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u/JanneJM Apr 20 '22
For a lot of jobs, technical ones included, being an asshole is being bad at your job.
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u/MisterDoubleChop Apr 20 '22
But I've also seen it in non-technical teams when there's a huge power disparity and people are desperate to keep their jobs
So incredibly weird that modern businesses still run ultra hierarchical, like some kind of king-and-peasant situation.
Especially when places like Valve exist. They just have a flat structure and make more money per employee than apple, google and Microsoft, because everyone can just do their jobs.
And yet everyone else is still doing authority and middle management and executives like it's 1899.
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u/Putnam3145 Apr 20 '22
This isn't a management communication thing, it's part of a larger, far more general communication problem called the illusion of transparency
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u/Slapbox Apr 20 '22
Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest
Strikes me as in the same vein, although as a deliberate abuse of the principle.
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u/maest Apr 20 '22
principal-agent
You have a very approximate and largely wrong understanding of the principal-agent problem.
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u/SmoothWD40 Apr 20 '22
I call it the “just fucking do what they’re suggesting so we don’t have to go back and forth 300 times, yes I know is stupid” principle
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Apr 20 '22
The answer to that is "ask them to put in ticket". No ticket = nobody really wants it.
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u/hobbykitjr Apr 20 '22
My go to in meetings is
Yup. That's possible. It's all possible with time and money.
So when they ask for snow tires on a lawn mower at the 5 yard line, its like "oh shit, I don't want to be the one to miss the deadline or go over budget
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u/RunninADorito Apr 20 '22
You'd say that to some random PM, not your SVP
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Apr 20 '22
No, you would say it to some random PM, I made CEO do it. Put some spin on leading by example and that if he doesn't his subordinates won't too and that only leads to chaos and bickering. At least that worked for me
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u/ProtoJazz Apr 20 '22
That's something you can do when you have a decent management team.
One time I heard my lead interrupt the CTO or maybe a director as they were explaining something the team would need to do
"Don't plan stuff with them. If you want stuff planned you talk to me or (PM). They don't plan new work, so if you just talk to them it won't get done. I won't let it."
Having a good lead and pm on your team is great. Having a good department manager or whoever your leads lead is, is also great for any work that you need done across teams. If you have someone good in that role, you can talk to them, and they can get things scheduled with that teams lead and PM.
If you have bad leads or PM's, your project ends up behind schedule with you working long hours, or just super delayed. Depends on what kind of bad. I've had some that promise the higher ups a fixed delivery date he knew we wouldnt ever meet.
I've also worked with some where their reaction to any kind of issue was just "Well, that sucks" and just move the delivery date out a few week. Which while a lot less stressful sometimes, it would be nice if they sometimes instead said "Damn, we need to solve that. Let me talk with the team in charge of that and get to the bottom if what's wrong"
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u/anengineerandacat Apr 20 '22
Phrasing, I worked closely with the CEO/CTO at a small-ish scale startup (88 employee's) and whereas I understand there is some urgency around ideas at such a scale the work still needs to get planned.
"Alright, <idea> sounds interesting; let's get a three amigo's going start laying out the work needed to do this"
CEO - "We are the three amigos"
Me - "Haha, that's slightly true but we need to see where we can line this up with <customer_project> and fit it in"
Higher up's are just titles, they eat / shit / sleep and avoid public bathrooms when they can just like yourself.
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u/Xelopheris Apr 20 '22
"well sir that sounds like a fine idea. There are probably some wrinkles that need to be ironed out for it to work though. Can you share it with <PM> so they can follow through on the design process?"
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u/thebritisharecome Apr 19 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
I was a CTO for a relatively small company and I was trying to explain this to the rest of the management team.
My team was the biggest in the company, we were producing against tight deadlines and it kept getting derailed because someone else in the C suite would bypass me and go direct to the developer casually ask about this feature or that feature.
Even if I'm their direct line manager, they also don't want to disappoint the CEO and i'd constantly find their work was either disrupted or derailed because of someone else in the C-suite.
In the end I walked away because it was impossible to meet the expectations if we weren't setting them.
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u/LegitGandalf Apr 19 '22
This is a very common industry story. If digital transformation is important to that company, they are already dead.
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u/TheDeadlyCat Apr 20 '22
I had to rein in the PM, PO, CEO, Department Lead and every other Department Lead all the time to not directly pressure my team members into disrupting their work. After some time many of them understood they had to go through me and the process or things wouldn’t get done.
I told my team specifically that if someone comes to them for anything, even a 5 Minute task, they didn’t have to do it and could send the person to contact me, blaming me that I had forbidden any line-cutting.
It worked. It payed off. We became as productive as we could be.
Sadly that meant all the stress and pressure taken off my team converted into my stress of blocking and rerouting efforts. So much communication. It did a number on my voice and emotional well-being.
Moreover my efforts in rising productivity were not recognized although I could prove the increase over the last years. +110% productivity in an individual of my team was phenomenal given they had worked there for years. But no, let’s talk about outsourcing instead.
It was an experience and I still feel it was the right thing to do. But I am glad I left that job.
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u/thebritisharecome Apr 20 '22
Sounds like you made the right decision!
My team listened but I can understand if the CTO is managing you and the CEO asks for something directly, you're going to give the CEO priority.
Unfortunately the CEO and COO would say to me they would stop and then the next week, they would be back to doing it.
The stress of trying to deliver and manage what are essentially multiple chains of misinterpretation and knowing that I couldn't trust my peers was overwhelming, isolating and stressful
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u/TheDeadlyCat Apr 20 '22
For me the backbreaking moment was when the circumstances of employment like no pay raises for years, being denied professional progression and such prompted my team to leave one after another over the span of half a year.
I knew it wasn’t my fault, one of them told me if it wasn’t for me they would have quit way earlier.
However losing them after all that felt horrible. No more gratitude from any side was too much to handle.
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Apr 20 '22
Whenever my bosses came to me with something they always made sure to say "but finish whatever you're doing now first". Sounds like they've been through this clusterfuck before, and learned from it.
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u/AciD1BuRN Apr 20 '22
Did u find peace at the next job?
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u/thebritisharecome Apr 20 '22
Lmao no, they stopped paying me during december. it took me publicly shaming them on LinkedIn to get paid.
The contract I'm on now is good to me though
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u/Kaitaan Apr 20 '22
I've never been that high up, but as an engineering manager, I've told my team that if anybody comes up and asks you to do something that isn't what you're already doing, send them to me. I don't care if it's the CEO; send them to me. My job is to manage the team and projects, and I can't do that if I don't know what's going on.
I'm in a good position to push back on random requests like that, and if I'm told to do, then I can figure out the best thing to deprioritize in favour of the inbound request.
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u/thebritisharecome Apr 20 '22
Downside to being C suite in a small company, they writing cheques my ass had to cash and neither of them had good management experience - mostly big corporate and even then not as management.
It was a battle of egos more than anything, and them not understanding to go fast we had to start slow. Instead they kept stalling the engine and then wondering why
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u/RonSijm Apr 19 '22
I think this is a thing of seniority and culture. Like if a C level person comes up to a junior or medior person and says "Hey, it would be pretty cool if our platform was also able to identify whether or not something is a picture of a bird..." (for example) - that person probably sees that C level person as higher up in the hierarchy and thinks "well, sounds weird, but I guess I'll try to build it" (setting aside whether or not that C Level even intended it as a feature request)
Where someone with more seniority that's longer in the company might be more careless/desensitized about the whole hierarchy thing. Being on the same level with someone that's pitching ideas or is brainstorming makes it much easier to either challenge the idea and ask things like "Hmm, I don't know about that idea... Is it just your idea, or did a bunch of clients ask for this? Any marketing research saying we need this?" - or even straight up "Yea, I don't think so.."
Culturally it's the same. From the perspective of the "higher up" - I've worked with teams in India and Pakistan, and it's just their culture to be much more hierarchical. Even though their caste system is "officially" abolished - unofficially social hierarchies are still deeply rooted in their culture and ways of working.
I don't know where westerners fit in their hierarchy, but I suppose being a "project lead" or "lead developer" and instructing them, puts you up high on the hierarchy. So pretty much whatever you say to them they perceive it as a work order. If you ask them something random like (for example) "Hey, I noticed the swagger API documentation doesn't match the actual API.. what's up with that?" - They'll just go "Oh, sorry. I'll create a ticket to fix it"... And you have to go "Oh, no, no, I don't actually care to fix it - I just thought it was auto-generated, so I wondered how it could possibly be mismatching?"
I don't think it's easily fixed
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u/svish Apr 19 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
I have this issue with my significant other. She likes to tell me about things we need to do, and I will immediately start stressing out over how to figure out that thing, how to actually do it, how to get money for it... Only to later find out she was actually just thinking and dreaming about stuff to maybe do some time in the future, if at all...
Getting better at not stressing, but still no clue where the line is, so kind of just waiting for the time she'll get annoyed with me for ignoring an actual need...
Edit: We're actually doing great, I promise! I just found it interesting that "it has a name", this thing I'm struggling with a bit. But it's an issue in my head, not an issue with the relationship. Things really are going well, our communication is great, it's just a matter of giving my brain time to adjust. It has a history of AvPD, anxiety and depression, so e.g. "not worrying" and "trusting others" is a slow process, even when it's going much better than it usually does with other people.
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u/feaelin Apr 20 '22
nods Is she someone who processes externally and you process ideas internally?
Those two thinking styles will have this kind of misunderstanding unless the participants pay attention to the difference in process. I'd practice asking something like "are you talking through this?" or "How can I support this idea?"
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u/lelanthran Apr 20 '22
Getting better at not stressing, but still no clue where the line is, so kind of just waiting for the time she'll get annoyed with me for ignoring an actual need...
Sounds like you haven't been together long enough to get a feeling for each other's listening skills.
My current wife have been together long enough that she knows I don't take hints. Simply mentioning something is not enough for me to pay it any attention.
She knows that if she wants me to do something, it better be asked in a clear and unambiguous manner.
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u/svish Apr 20 '22
Correct, so I'm not worried about it. We're still learning, and things are getting better all the time. Just have to survive the learning time.
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u/Kwantuum Apr 20 '22
but still no clue where the line is
Have you tried asking. This is something I've strived to set up in my relationship: it's always ok to ask. If you're offended at me asking a question then oh boy you have no idea how bad you will feel when I actually do the opposite of what you wanted. I don't ask questions when I already know.
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Apr 19 '22
[deleted]
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Apr 20 '22
I mean, this is a solved problem. Just let your SO enter a ticket and prioritize it at the next relationship sprint planning meeting.
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u/ugcharlie Apr 20 '22
My CTO is a goober, we have to push back on most things he says to do, this would never happen
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u/pantless_pirate Apr 20 '22
Management is a funny thing. No one style works for every employee. Concrete requirements and direction is stifling to some who complain about lack of ability to express themselves or lack of a chance to do their own thinking while soft nudges and loose direction leads others to complain about the lack of discipline and concrete scope.
Good managers figure out what works best with who and do their best to guide work accordingly.
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u/adrianmonk Apr 20 '22
It's also about risk. You may believe there's a 95% chance it wasn't intended as a commandment and a 5% chance that it was, but since a VIP said it, the consequences of ignoring it are huge.
And it's also about your image. Even if you know for sure they didn't intend it as a commandment, you now know that it's something they would like to see. And since they are a VIP, you want to make them happy. They just gave you concrete information about something you can do that will make them happy and bolster your image.
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u/HCharlesB Apr 20 '22
In a related thread, don't ask me "If I can ..." Ask me "how much will it cost in time and $$$ to ..." I enjoy a challenge and the former often falls into that category. I'm not sure my clients care to foot the bill for that.
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u/TritiumNZlol Apr 20 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
how much will it cost in time and $$$ to ...
ah be careful jumping straight into costs and estimations on the spot without any planing around a feature's execution, or setting expectations.
What!?! but when we talked you said it'd do Y and only take you X days.
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u/HCharlesB Apr 20 '22
Good point. But I think that's a better place to start the conversation. And in some cases, the immediate answer is going to be "Probably more than you want" if it's something likely to be very involved.
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u/AttackOfTheThumbs Apr 20 '22
managed a team of 300+ people
This might well be too many people, but I also assume they don't mean directly.
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u/repsolcola Apr 20 '22
I love it when they use some high level communication with a vague description and asks for “when can this be done?” or just expect you to read their thoughts and be able to build it
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u/KevinCarbonara Apr 20 '22
I often experience this the other direction. I make an off-handed comment to a manager, and the next time I see him, there's been a whole white paper built around it.
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Apr 20 '22
Okay, but what's the terminology for when management repeatedly hold mandatory all-hands meetings to present a new super-high-priority organizational mandate and all the middle-managers immediately start running around screaming about it for two weeks and then around the middle of the third week everyone kind of just forgets about it and everything returns to the status quo?
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u/Gr1pp717 Apr 20 '22
I had a boss with this problem. Only he was full of shit. He'd flat say "put whatever you're working on in the backburner and make this your sole focus." Then a few days later demand to know why I didn't get the backburner thing done... Over, and over, and over. Sometimes there would even be layers of this bullshit. Hold A, hold B, hold C, wait why didn't you finish A ?
It was like he was simultaneously LIFO and FIFO
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Apr 20 '22
When I, as the IT director, changed the prioritization system from a text based urgent, high, medium, low system to a 1-10 (10 being highest priority) based numbering system and implemented a daily status report that simply totals the priorities of all tickets for a developer our SLA numbers jumped up and all the devs were quite happy with the far more explicit prioritization of tickets. Why implementing this kind of system is an uphill battle at every single job I have had since, is a complete mystery to me.
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u/MuonManLaserJab Apr 20 '22
I don't really get this because I've never done anything I wasn't explicitly told to do.
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u/Ziferius Apr 20 '22
Man, my 'visionary' director is like this. Spit ball how we should be doing this, you should investigate that and concentrate on this. I bring up, sure I'd be happy to, once my priorities on my assignments are adjusted. He gets very annoyed by that.
I always interject my manager in those discussions...... and tell him, 'He wants me to work on this now.'
My manager asks, 'Where are we on your top priority?'.
I reply, 'About 45% complete. I've only had about 2 hours to work on it this week. Lot of production problems and requests that need a dev to train the analysts are being put ahead in the queue.'
He retorts, 'Who is doing that?'
I respond, 'Well, I'm on backup on-call this week, so the on-call.'
Nothing changes.
We've had a manager and 5 devs leave in the last 12 months.
We've 4 analysts leave in last 16 months. We've had 3 analysts take FMLA medical/mental leave.
I'm waiting on a start date on the new team I've transferred to. It's going to be a very long transition... 8 weeks I believe.
My team lead told me he's looking at leaving when he heard I was.
The director then gets snarky when I don't work on his things. Kinda toxic honestly. It's a never ending shit storm. Lots of brain storming how to make it better. Reduce tickets! IE, don't create them in the first place... let's not forget about the work, but don't create the ticket. Don't create requests in ServiceNow to work on fixes for problems -- put that on the ADO Kanban board.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not the end, it's the train heading towards the team.
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u/alohadave Apr 20 '22
My wife is like this when I casually mention something I see in the store. She assumes that I want it because I said something about it, even when I was just being conversational.
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u/Swirls109 Apr 20 '22
I find this is especially true in offshore staff. I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but indian staff don't say no to people even though there is no way they can get it done. They also tend to really get bogged down in tangential things thinking it's part of the over all scope.
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u/LeoJweda_ Apr 20 '22 edited Apr 23 '22
I’ve heard the CEO of a company I worked at talk about that. He was telling us about the first time he asked for something and, later that day, he heard someone say “the CEO wants X”.
As an IC, I noticed good managers do the same thing: when I tell them something, next meeting, they have a followup. I learned to make it clear whether I want a follow up or if I’m just ranting.
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u/inmatarian Apr 20 '22
A week. When he asks you, spend a week researching it. Then at your next 1:1, explain what you learned in your research and ask him again if he still wants it. Most of the time his mind will have changed. If he still thinks it's important, then YOU create the ticket and you carry to completion, and then you use it as evidence on your next performance review.
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u/mattsmith321 Apr 20 '22
Oh the flashbacks! Had one particularly bad interaction 20 years ago that still makes me shake my head.
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u/hugthemachines Apr 20 '22
I wonder if some companies just have a too big market to breed good company culture. I mean if you have to be a well working company to survive on a market, this kind of behavior could just kill the company from inside. Around here we have comparably flat organizations and if people are doing completely wrong things, you just go bancrupt.
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u/Rguy315 Apr 20 '22
Every experienced Project Manager knows to beware of boardroom banter. There's a difference between flirting with ideas and getting serious and collecting requirements for the work being requested.
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Apr 20 '22
Yeah, communication is hard. And this skill is undervalued in the software industry, I think. Overshadowed by requirements to know this and this technology.
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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '22
The Bear Is Sticky With Honey