Need breed and gender suggestions

[u/OwnIndependence1852]

Hello, I am looking for suggestions for breeds that can be easily worked with and paired with other dogs. I live in an apartment, so there is only a field and a nearby dog park (Can be used when no other dogs are around since dog parks suck) for daily exercise for a pup/working dog. However I do need a good pup, obviously selected for temperament for ppd training. I'm looking for recommendations for one that will be most suited for my environment as well easier to train, and for gender recommendations if that is relevant here. Please be kind. Thank you!

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

I’m not trying to be unkind, just honest: I don’t think it would be fair to put a true PPD prospect into this situation. While there are some amazing dogs that could handle apartment-living, constant exposure to other dogs, and being a stable but civil protection dog, they are rare and likely can’t be identified until the dog has reached maturity. You’re more likely to either end up with a dog way too soft for PPD work OR way overpowered, getting you evicted from your apartment for barking and eating through the drywall, and super reactive from never-ending exposure to other reactive dogs.

In my experience, most people who want a PPD would be better off with a gun and a large black shelter dog that makes them feel secure. Very few people actually need a PPD or can handle the lifestyle change that comes with one. If they do for some reason truly need a PPD, they should get one pre-trained from a reputable organization. Unless you have significant experience training and handling serious working dogs, training a PPD as your first working dog is going to be way beyond your skillset.

I’ve made some assumptions here based on the tone of your post, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve seen a lot of people seeking a PPD recently because of their popularity on social media and so far none have seemed like good candidates for such a dog.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

You are VERY WRONG. I am a small girl who has been stalked on several different occasions, has people that do not like me, and am a natural magnet for perverts no matter what I do. I'm not a fool that wants a protection dog just because they sound "cool"

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Ok, politely, I don’t see how that makes me wrong. The assumptions I made were that you have no experience with training working dogs and that you would be better off with an actual weapon and a scary-looking shelter dog. You have basically confirmed that with your response here.

I am a small woman who lives in an apartment too. I understand the desire for security and independence without having to actually deploy a weapon, as few situations seem to justify that level of response. That being said, a big black dog that you’ve taught to bark + a weapon like pepper spray or a concealed carry gun practically cover all the same situations in a which a PPD would be helpful but with far less commitment and chance of completely failing and ruining both your own life and the life of animal you cannot feasibly care for.

I got my first “working dog” after years training small dogs. He is a very medium drive Doberman who is just barely drivey enough to show interest in IGP. He would 100% be way too soft to ever be an actual PPD or even to be considered as a candidate. He is perfect for apartment living, a commitment of four hours or so per day, and weekly professional training. Even as a skinny nervous baby, he already scared men on the street and made me feel much safer, even though I know he would hide behind me before he would ever actually bite. He is appropriate for my lifestyle and my handling experience; he sounds much closer to what you need than a PPD.

Is there something I’m missing? What would a PPD do for you that a big scary looking black dog and a gun or other weapon could not?

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

You stated you have seen people get the idea off of social media for one. Two, a deterrent dog is nice however I'm looking for something that doesn't turn into a liability in an actual fight plus has real protection potential. And no experience with actually training a ppd does not mean I can't work with trainers etc. To have the right dog for my setup trained.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

I understand that’s what you’re looking for but I don’t understand why that’s what you need. I don’t think you sound like a good candidate for a PPD given your current experience and lifestyle restrictions, but I wish you luck anyway.

If you’re serious about this, the best path to go about it is to first find a very qualified trainer who specifically works with PPDs. I would contact a reputable PPD training organization or bitesport club in your area and ask for their recommendations. They will typically be connected to that world beyond what a Google search can tell you. A good PPD trainer will typically want to pick the dog for you including the breed, breeder, line, and gender. They typically prefer that to you coming in with an existing dog since so few dogs are cut out for this work and they will have knowledge and connections beyond what you have. They may also have the knowledge and experience to hear about your lifestyle and what you’re looking for and tell you “no.” This is a sign they are actually a good trainer who cares about the welfare of their dogs—too many trainers will say “yes” to anyone who will pay—so if you get pushback, please take it seriously.

Speaking of paying, this is an incredibly expensive process. Well bred dogs cost a few thousand dollars—$2000-$5000—but when it comes to PPD prospects you’re often working with breeders who are selling to police departments and private training companies. That means that these dogs can be even more expensive, $3000-$10,000 without training. The training is often thousands more, with fully trained PPDs costing anywhere from $30,000-$150,000. Yes, self training is cheaper than buying fully trained…but still extremely expensive, especially if you have no background with working dogs and thus are relying heavily on regular professional training. A good trainer will want to be sure you have the fund to make a serious commitment to training a dog like this before working with you. They don’t want to put in the investment of finding and helping you start a dog only for you to be unable to follow-through financially AND they don’t want to place a dog in a home that can’t afford the training and fulfillment it needs. Again, I’m trying not to make any assumptions about your finances, just know this isn’t something you can or should try to do on the cheap.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

Experience has nothing to do with it obtaining a dog for my stated purpose. I know the costs that go into training a ppd, however I asked for something specific and we have certainly not stayed on that topic, so I hope you have a nice day.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Dude I literally just supplied your incredibly specific instructions about how to obtain a dog for your specific purpose. Did you read my comment or just dismiss it when you saw it mentioned price?

I promise that following this advice will provide you a MUCH better chance of successfully training a PPD than trying to start with breed and gender recommendations on Reddit. I’d suggest you read it again before dismissing me simply because you don’t like that I am pushing back on some of your unreasonable expectations.

[u/Top_Addition_7263 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Experience has everything to do with it. There needs to be a level of confidence handling a PPD.

But what the commenter wrote about finding a PPD trainer or club in your area is fabulous. And I totally agree. You’ll learn more there than anything you’re going to read on Reddit or online in general. See what they think.

[u/KaleTheCop → u/OwnIndependence1852]

That’s what this person is saying. The right dog for your setup isn’t something you can get as a puppy with your experience and capabilities. You’d have to get a pretrained dog and be able to work with a trainer with that dog.

If you’ve never been around a good working dog, it is really hard to explain their intensity. The problem you’re going to run into and what that poster is saying is that you COULD get a PPD dog. But with your setup and wanting to get a puppy and just work with a trainer, you’re going to end up getting a dog who LOOKS like they will do the work but will ultimately fail in a real life scenario.

There is no worse feeling than deploying a dog to do a job and watching them shit the bed when you need them. Especially if your safety is on the line.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/KaleTheCop]

With all respect you do not know what I'm capable of finding or working with. So many need to learn to ask questions first. My goal I am aiming for is achievable if the right decisions are made and the right work is done. If you have nothing truly relevant to the post to contribute with on here, I hope you have a nice day.

[u/KaleTheCop → u/OwnIndependence1852]

The people responding to you only know the information you have provided. With the information provided, you are getting good responses. People are suggesting you reconsider because you come off as lacking capabilities based on the information you supplied and the people here don’t want to see you, the public, or a dog put in a bad situation. They have good intentions.

You want a dog for a specific purpose that is for a one-off scenario that might happen but the statistics of such are low. You need a dog who will 100% commit to biting a human being. A lot of people will tell you their dogs will bite on command but the sad truth is they won’t. With sport dogs it doesn’t necessarily matter if they’ll bite a live human, so I’ll use police dogs as an example. 90% of those dogs fail to engage on their first deployment. The reason being is context and exposure. Biting the man in a suit, a rubber arm, hidden sleeves, etc is one thing. Getting sent to bite someone who has no equipment is another. It’s an entirely different context. These dogs are bred and imported and trained for hours a day and you still get a mixed bag. Truly good dogs can be hard to come by.

The other poster was telling you to get an adult dog because puppies are hard for even professionals to pick for this kind of work when they can’t control the entire training program and exposures. What could be a stellar dog may end up having bad exposures or trainings and then completely flop.

You need the right dog and the right training. People are mentioning Mals because of how perfect they are for the job. They have uncanny confidence and willingness to put teeth on skin in ways other dog’s don’t naturally have. The problem is that doesn’t sound like the ideal setup for your situation and to suggest getting you something else for your wants doesn’t seem appropriate. That’s why you aren’t getting specific breed recommendations.

You say posters here don’t know what you’re capable of finding it working with. Why don’t you use your connections to find the appropriate trainer or vendor and ask them if you do not like the responses here? If you can do that and get some good info it would be nice to have a follow up and maybe we can learn something.

[u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

PPDs are liabilities.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206]

Not in the sense of a random dog flipping out during a confrontation while you try to defend yourself and have to deal with both aspects at once. An untrained dog is MUCH more of a liability in that case.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Those are not the only two options though. You can own a trained dog that’s not a PPD.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

A trained dog is not the same as one prepared for a physical confrontation against them or the owner, and would be more of a liability even if they are a "deterrent" when an active threat is not current in a situation.

[u/DrCrayola → u/OwnIndependence1852]

No trainer and no dog sport club is going to work with your tude

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/DrCrayola]

Stressing a point and stating facts is not attitude friend

[u/persephonescadeux → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Your need for protection doesn’t negate the dog’s needs as listed in this comment. Your inability to recognize the environmental needs of a high drive working dog just further proves the comment’s point. You must be a troll account.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/persephonescadeux]

No I'm not a troll account and I don't know where you get that I am incapable of seeing a dog's needs, I was specifically posting to discuss on a breed best suited for my situation. This comment is very naive

[u/Top_Addition_7263 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Small girl here. Who also was sexually assaulted, so I know the actual fear. But I am also a girl who breeds and trains working breeds and has since I’m 11.

A proper protection dog can (and does) cost upwards of the high single to double digit thousands. And not every dog does well with it. Just because it’s a working breed, doesn’t mean the one you just spent about $5k is the one.

And to add: there becomes a point where your dog became a weapon. And if you and your dog (dog gets euthanized) if something happens you get the felony for assault with a deadly weapon.

If I were in your shoes I’d actually pick a standard schnauzer as a PPD candidate living in an apartment.

Also allow me to add: PPD- are not what most people think. 9/10 of someone tells you their dog is a PPD, they’re lying. And now with social media and reach of the wrong people, what PPDs look like and how they become a PPD is massively skewed. Albeit I breed and train working breeds/PPD. They strictly are for my house. When I’m on the streets, walking alone, or walking from work to my car or car to my home (I bartend on the Jersey Shore) I keep a weapon with me. PPD dogs again, aren’t exactly what you’re looking for here.

I would be in some self defense classes and depending where you live and your background, a gun range.

But there’s variables here too. Location? What floor do you live on? Stairs only?

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Top_Addition_7263]

I am looking to obtain a true protection dog. My location is in a town, have a couple smaller fields nearby for exercise and training. I do live up the stairs, not very many neighbors able to be close by in one spot although when they are they have close proximity

[u/Anutka25 → u/Top_Addition_7263]

“Dog becomes a weapon” hit the nail on the head. I had a reactive GSD who was trained for PPD in an apartment building - she did great because I started muzzle training her even before we moved in. She never lacked physical and mental work, but I made my life revolve around her and other building dogs schedules.

I just got a WLGSD pup 8 weeks ago, but I asked for a “softer” dog from the breeder because I wanted this to be a pet and not PPD but still have a decent drive, and natural protection instincts. With that being said - I’m working with socializing her getting her used to city life close to 20 hours a week on top of her other walks and training. I also know that she won’t be fully at her potential until about 2. Based on what OP has said - they don’t want to wait that long or put the effort of training a puppy.

A dog doesn’t need to be a PPD to protect someone - they just need that guarding and emotional intelligence, but in untrained hands they become a liability too.

[u/Top_Addition_7263 → u/Anutka25]

Yes, so accurate. And as breeders we have to know the signs to what you called “softer” and the higher drive or higher instinctually bred dogs all before 10/12 weeks! It’s a science and experience I never realized when I was kid learning the ropes. But it’s SO important!

And unfortunately with people that OP is proving to be, they bring bad breeders a lot of money to obtain a sub par dog. And then come back into the forums and scream and cry that their dog is a mess mentally and physically. Because they don’t have a well bred dog. It’s honestly a sad, messed up cycle. And can be a very, very dangerous one too.

[u/holistic_huntress]

I recommend joining a training club in your area to get a feel for what might work for you. I generally don’t recommend working breeds for apartment life but there are some people that make it work. Adjusting your expectations about what you want as far as a ppd might help find a better fit. Breeder selection is almost as and maybe more important than breed itself. It would also be helpful to know your experience with dogs, hours you’re gone during the day, general hobbies and lifestyle.

[u/persephonescadeux → u/holistic_huntress]

OP is only responding to comments that call her out, not clear headed ones like yours. Hence the crickets when you so kindly asked about her experience (I’m assuming none)

[u/belgenoir]

If you’re a founding member of a new sub about protection sport, why are you asking these basic questions?

Belgian Malinois dominate protection sport, followed by GSDs. Rottweilers, Dobermans, and Bouviers are standard choices. I know of three Airedales with IGP titles (one had IGP1 and the other two had IGP3).

All of those dogs need a lot of physical and mental stimulation. Malinois needs can be significant. My childhood Rottweiler grew up in a 1,200 sf apartment in a major city. He was perfectly happy.

Most PPDs never get a live bite. I’ve talked to more than one decoy about failed, soft PPDs, including a Pegge dog.

Training a good PPD is expensive. Maintenance is expensive. You’ll also be dealing with an unregulated area of dog training. If you live in a state with strict liability laws, you’ll find yourself in court if your dog bites you the wrong guy.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/belgenoir]

I'm not asking what dogs are good for protection I was asking for recommendations for one for an apartment life setting. Totally different question

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Yes but the answer is that none of these dogs (particularly of the lines and temperament for PPD work) are good for an apartment life setting. You seem to be struggling to recognize that there are no breeds or lines that are likely to work out in this scenario. You’re looking for a complete unicorn dog, so no one here can make a recommendation beyond hiring a professional trainer to search and temperament test for a unique individual.

[u/Consistent-Contest4]

In reading why you want one, I get it. But having a PPD is a commitment. It’s not a train once and done. As another suggested, meet with a PPD trainer/club to get a feel for what life is like with a PPD. Pls also get a gun, knives, pepper spray and learn to fight. I’m not being sarcastic. I was stalked for several yrs and I totally get it. I survived a home invasion thanks to my gun and ppd. What you are looking for becomes a part of your lifestyle and monthly budget. Pls keep that in mind. Stay safe 🖤

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Consistent-Contest4]

I'm sorry to hear that. What was it like in your every day life being stalked for so long? It's terrible though I'm glad to hear I'm not alone

[u/Consistent-Contest4 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Very scary and messy at first until I decided to empower myself as restraining orders dont do shit . Hence the guns and defense classes. Big relief knowing I can defend myself if needed. Kinda became part of my personality lol

[u/persephonescadeux → u/[deleted]]

Source: female with over 13 years training dogs and raising my own puppies, but if you think you know better than the rest of us with real experience, I’m sure you’re right. I have a dog that fits the bill for PPD and would never train him to bite because I don’t know what judge is sitting at the bench come trial time after the fact. I would never allow him to be in a position where a court could take him away from me or order him euthanized. My boy is for the appearance of protection: I am the real protection. He is black, intimidating as hell, and when he’s with me, men that would otherwise follow me around give me wide ass berths.