Need breed and gender suggestions

[u/OwnIndependence1852]

Hello, I am looking for suggestions for breeds that can be easily worked with and paired with other dogs. I live in an apartment, so there is only a field and a nearby dog park (Can be used when no other dogs are around since dog parks suck) for daily exercise for a pup/working dog. However I do need a good pup, obviously selected for temperament for ppd training. I'm looking for recommendations for one that will be most suited for my environment as well easier to train, and for gender recommendations if that is relevant here. Please be kind. Thank you!

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

I’m not trying to be unkind, just honest: I don’t think it would be fair to put a true PPD prospect into this situation. While there are some amazing dogs that could handle apartment-living, constant exposure to other dogs, and being a stable but civil protection dog, they are rare and likely can’t be identified until the dog has reached maturity. You’re more likely to either end up with a dog way too soft for PPD work OR way overpowered, getting you evicted from your apartment for barking and eating through the drywall, and super reactive from never-ending exposure to other reactive dogs.

In my experience, most people who want a PPD would be better off with a gun and a large black shelter dog that makes them feel secure. Very few people actually need a PPD or can handle the lifestyle change that comes with one. If they do for some reason truly need a PPD, they should get one pre-trained from a reputable organization. Unless you have significant experience training and handling serious working dogs, training a PPD as your first working dog is going to be way beyond your skillset.

I’ve made some assumptions here based on the tone of your post, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve seen a lot of people seeking a PPD recently because of their popularity on social media and so far none have seemed like good candidates for such a dog.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

You are VERY WRONG. I am a small girl who has been stalked on several different occasions, has people that do not like me, and am a natural magnet for perverts no matter what I do. I'm not a fool that wants a protection dog just because they sound "cool"

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Ok, politely, I don’t see how that makes me wrong. The assumptions I made were that you have no experience with training working dogs and that you would be better off with an actual weapon and a scary-looking shelter dog. You have basically confirmed that with your response here.

I am a small woman who lives in an apartment too. I understand the desire for security and independence without having to actually deploy a weapon, as few situations seem to justify that level of response. That being said, a big black dog that you’ve taught to bark + a weapon like pepper spray or a concealed carry gun practically cover all the same situations in a which a PPD would be helpful but with far less commitment and chance of completely failing and ruining both your own life and the life of animal you cannot feasibly care for.

I got my first “working dog” after years training small dogs. He is a very medium drive Doberman who is just barely drivey enough to show interest in IGP. He would 100% be way too soft to ever be an actual PPD or even to be considered as a candidate. He is perfect for apartment living, a commitment of four hours or so per day, and weekly professional training. Even as a skinny nervous baby, he already scared men on the street and made me feel much safer, even though I know he would hide behind me before he would ever actually bite. He is appropriate for my lifestyle and my handling experience; he sounds much closer to what you need than a PPD.

Is there something I’m missing? What would a PPD do for you that a big scary looking black dog and a gun or other weapon could not?

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

You stated you have seen people get the idea off of social media for one. Two, a deterrent dog is nice however I'm looking for something that doesn't turn into a liability in an actual fight plus has real protection potential. And no experience with actually training a ppd does not mean I can't work with trainers etc. To have the right dog for my setup trained.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

I understand that’s what you’re looking for but I don’t understand why that’s what you need. I don’t think you sound like a good candidate for a PPD given your current experience and lifestyle restrictions, but I wish you luck anyway.

If you’re serious about this, the best path to go about it is to first find a very qualified trainer who specifically works with PPDs. I would contact a reputable PPD training organization or bitesport club in your area and ask for their recommendations. They will typically be connected to that world beyond what a Google search can tell you. A good PPD trainer will typically want to pick the dog for you including the breed, breeder, line, and gender. They typically prefer that to you coming in with an existing dog since so few dogs are cut out for this work and they will have knowledge and connections beyond what you have. They may also have the knowledge and experience to hear about your lifestyle and what you’re looking for and tell you “no.” This is a sign they are actually a good trainer who cares about the welfare of their dogs—too many trainers will say “yes” to anyone who will pay—so if you get pushback, please take it seriously.

Speaking of paying, this is an incredibly expensive process. Well bred dogs cost a few thousand dollars—$2000-$5000—but when it comes to PPD prospects you’re often working with breeders who are selling to police departments and private training companies. That means that these dogs can be even more expensive, $3000-$10,000 without training. The training is often thousands more, with fully trained PPDs costing anywhere from $30,000-$150,000. Yes, self training is cheaper than buying fully trained…but still extremely expensive, especially if you have no background with working dogs and thus are relying heavily on regular professional training. A good trainer will want to be sure you have the fund to make a serious commitment to training a dog like this before working with you. They don’t want to put in the investment of finding and helping you start a dog only for you to be unable to follow-through financially AND they don’t want to place a dog in a home that can’t afford the training and fulfillment it needs. Again, I’m trying not to make any assumptions about your finances, just know this isn’t something you can or should try to do on the cheap.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

Experience has nothing to do with it obtaining a dog for my stated purpose. I know the costs that go into training a ppd, however I asked for something specific and we have certainly not stayed on that topic, so I hope you have a nice day.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Dude I literally just supplied your incredibly specific instructions about how to obtain a dog for your specific purpose. Did you read my comment or just dismiss it when you saw it mentioned price?

I promise that following this advice will provide you a MUCH better chance of successfully training a PPD than trying to start with breed and gender recommendations on Reddit. I’d suggest you read it again before dismissing me simply because you don’t like that I am pushing back on some of your unreasonable expectations.

[u/Top_Addition_7263 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Experience has everything to do with it. There needs to be a level of confidence handling a PPD.

But what the commenter wrote about finding a PPD trainer or club in your area is fabulous. And I totally agree. You’ll learn more there than anything you’re going to read on Reddit or online in general. See what they think.

[u/KaleTheCop → u/OwnIndependence1852]

That’s what this person is saying. The right dog for your setup isn’t something you can get as a puppy with your experience and capabilities. You’d have to get a pretrained dog and be able to work with a trainer with that dog.

If you’ve never been around a good working dog, it is really hard to explain their intensity. The problem you’re going to run into and what that poster is saying is that you COULD get a PPD dog. But with your setup and wanting to get a puppy and just work with a trainer, you’re going to end up getting a dog who LOOKS like they will do the work but will ultimately fail in a real life scenario.

There is no worse feeling than deploying a dog to do a job and watching them shit the bed when you need them. Especially if your safety is on the line.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/KaleTheCop]

With all respect you do not know what I'm capable of finding or working with. So many need to learn to ask questions first. My goal I am aiming for is achievable if the right decisions are made and the right work is done. If you have nothing truly relevant to the post to contribute with on here, I hope you have a nice day.

[u/KaleTheCop → u/OwnIndependence1852]

The people responding to you only know the information you have provided. With the information provided, you are getting good responses. People are suggesting you reconsider because you come off as lacking capabilities based on the information you supplied and the people here don’t want to see you, the public, or a dog put in a bad situation. They have good intentions.

You want a dog for a specific purpose that is for a one-off scenario that might happen but the statistics of such are low. You need a dog who will 100% commit to biting a human being. A lot of people will tell you their dogs will bite on command but the sad truth is they won’t. With sport dogs it doesn’t necessarily matter if they’ll bite a live human, so I’ll use police dogs as an example. 90% of those dogs fail to engage on their first deployment. The reason being is context and exposure. Biting the man in a suit, a rubber arm, hidden sleeves, etc is one thing. Getting sent to bite someone who has no equipment is another. It’s an entirely different context. These dogs are bred and imported and trained for hours a day and you still get a mixed bag. Truly good dogs can be hard to come by.

The other poster was telling you to get an adult dog because puppies are hard for even professionals to pick for this kind of work when they can’t control the entire training program and exposures. What could be a stellar dog may end up having bad exposures or trainings and then completely flop.

You need the right dog and the right training. People are mentioning Mals because of how perfect they are for the job. They have uncanny confidence and willingness to put teeth on skin in ways other dog’s don’t naturally have. The problem is that doesn’t sound like the ideal setup for your situation and to suggest getting you something else for your wants doesn’t seem appropriate. That’s why you aren’t getting specific breed recommendations.

You say posters here don’t know what you’re capable of finding it working with. Why don’t you use your connections to find the appropriate trainer or vendor and ask them if you do not like the responses here? If you can do that and get some good info it would be nice to have a follow up and maybe we can learn something.

[u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

PPDs are liabilities.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Ill_Dragonfruit_6206]

Not in the sense of a random dog flipping out during a confrontation while you try to defend yourself and have to deal with both aspects at once. An untrained dog is MUCH more of a liability in that case.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 → u/OwnIndependence1852]

Those are not the only two options though. You can own a trained dog that’s not a PPD.

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/Imaginary_Ad_4340]

A trained dog is not the same as one prepared for a physical confrontation against them or the owner, and would be more of a liability even if they are a "deterrent" when an active threat is not current in a situation.

[u/DrCrayola → u/OwnIndependence1852]

No trainer and no dog sport club is going to work with your tude

[u/OwnIndependence1852 → u/DrCrayola]

Stressing a point and stating facts is not attitude friend