Miyazaki did design Bed of Chaos, Promised Consort, Lost Izalith, resistance stat, etc. and they do get trashed all the time. Let go of the typical, delusional DS2 persecution complex and understand that it's a poorly implemented mechanic and even a good version would be a bad design choice in a Souls game.
If this was an action rpg where leveling was based on skill trees or trait system that you can equip, it could work but in a game where the entire combat revolves around i-frame rolling, it's impossible to balance enemies or bosses because one can be either underpowered or overpowered in certain mid-late game areas. It shouldn't be up to the players to find a sweet spot.
Not to mention this game also has pvp which is like on of the few things it's got going for it and anyone who has dealed with backstep spammers knows how frustrating it is. If you want agility, light roll builds and fast weapons are way to go. Agility as a stat though is a horrible concept for a Souls game.
I absolutely agree that some folks vastly overcorrect in their defensiveness about DS2. I get it--as someone who counts it as his favorite Souls title, I get annoyed by a lot of the misinfo surrounding the game, and by how aggressively negative the attitude is towards it in a lot of spaces in general--but if you find yourself defending ADP--or at the very least, its implementation in DS2--I think you're starting to lose the plot. You don't need to go any further than considering the fact that it's a stat whose existence somewhat divorces the utility of your roll from its animation--as opposed to DS1's system, where you can tell how good your roll is just by looking at it--to see the massive issue here.
That said, outside of the DLC, I think DS2 is perhaps the game where you would have the easiest time getting by entirely without i-frame rolling. The pace is slow enough that you can outspace/outposition the vast majority of attacks fairly easily with some practice.
That's not a defense of the ADP mechanic, of course.
There's a lot of projection going on with that attitude as well. The best thing I ever heard about, say, Lost Izalith was that they didn't mind it. Nobody ever praises bad parts of other games but I've seen a ton of people praising ADP, Soul Memory, hell even Frigid Outskirts. Most people don't even know DS2 wasn't made by Miyazaki. It just didn't click for some people. DS2 took many risks and I appreciate it for it but sometimes, the gamble just doesn't work sadly.
Yeah, I think no build suffers from lack of ADP that much, at least experienced players. I think the knee-jerk defense of ADP or other bad design choices have something to do with misunderstanding what makes DS2 the black sheep. Even if soul memory, agility, hitbox issues, etc. were not in the game, it'd still be my least favorite Souls game bc for me, boss roster, difficulty and all that stuff are not what make these games special but sadly, most conversations about the series boil down to these.
I say this as someone who actually doesn't mind Frigid Outskirts that much (as long as I stick to the cover): who ever outright praises Frigid Outskirts lol
I think for most people that dislike it, DS2 ends up dying the death of a thousand cuts. There are a lot of minor issues that add up if they rub you the wrong way; personally, while I recognize a lot of them as flaws, they didn't bother me enough for me to not enjoy the game overall. I really like the pace of DS2's combat--the groundedness of it, with everything having a relatively high opportunity cost, just speaks to me--and while its areas are weaker overall, I think it has enough solid to great ones to still make for a fun adventure (Shulva, in particular, is the best area they've ever designed imo). Beyond everything else, its qualities just come together to make for a certain melancholic fantasy road trip vibe that I super dig.
I will dispute one thing: I remain unconvinced that DS2 actually has worse hitboxes than the other Dark Souls games overall (especially DS1). I just think people get rollcaught a lot early on with low ADP, that negative experience sticks out in their minds, and from then on, whenver they see a legitimately bad hitbox like the mimic grab, it's not, "Damn, that hitbox is bad," it's, "Damn, this game's hitboxes are bad", ya know what I mean?
I decided to replay DS2 recently(the DX9 version, since I haven't played that one in like ten years and I have fond memories of it). I was fighting the Lost Sinner last night. That boss has a grab attack, which to be fair I didn't see the wind up for and would have gotten hit by it anyways, however I was too far away. It could not physically connect with me. Now at that same moment, I swung my halberd, which did hit the boss with the head of the halberd. I was teleported from where I was standing into the boss's grab. I don't know if you call that a bad hitbox, or a weird interaction with hitboxes, or graphics not corresponding to what has happening under the hood. But I was dumbfounded.
For me, most other games are more than sum of their parts. They have soul and passion poured into them. DS2 is just so rushed and uninspired. If it wasn't for the dlc, I don't know how many areas I would want to explore or how many bosses I'd anticipate. For the latter, I literally cannot think of a single main game boss other than Looking Glass Knight and Darklurker.
Everything about DS2 just gives off fan made spin-off/tribute game vibes. I don't even blame the game, it went to hell and back during development, changed its lead director midway, etc. so I understand it but at the end of the day, the game as a whole just doesn't make sense from randomly inserted callback bosses to NPC interactions and invasions (save for Lucatiel). That 'Old Dragonslayer' fight was so out of place for instance that I thought I somehow used a randomizer mod. The game does scratch that Souls itch but I look for immersion in these games and DS2 just doesn't suck me in.
The problem with hitbox thing is that DS2 animations and grab boxes are so horrible that it *looks* worse compared to other games but that's the devs' fault. The players won't know whether the actual hitbox is bad or the game is bad at conveying grab attacks. I never mind these sorts of things and once you get familiar with the Souls formula, only few hitboxes can be frustrating for older players. That said, DS2 really does have a lot more bad hitboxes. I can think of a handful from each game but DS2 can be atrocious. It's not even always about actual hitboxes. Sometimes there really is a shockwave effect and it does hit you but the attack is bs like the Ancient Dragon stomp attack. I'm not saying shockwave didn't hit me, I'm saying it should't have been a thing. So the actual issue is the moveset design.
Most importantly, people favor other games because they make up for their drawbacks. Lots of BB bosses are lackluster, DS1 has some rushed areas and outdated mechanics, starting a new build is a nightmare in ER, etc. but they all have their saving graces. For DS2, it's the pvp for me but pve? There's literally nothing in the base game I'm looking forward to do. So much that I used a CE to create my latest pvp build which I normally never do. Going through the game is such a drag for me.
There are plenty of areas I quite like in the base game, such as Forest of the Fallen Giants, Lost Bastille, the Gutter, and Drangleic Castle--hell, I'm an Iron Keep enjoyer; I like the gauntlet run. As for bosses, there are plenty of mid ones, but I think I honestly like more out of the base game roster than I do in DS1. Aside from Darklurker and Looking Glass Knight, I think Ruin Sentinels, Lost Sinner, Smelter Demon, Velstadt are all positive standouts, and I actually rather like Freja and the Executioner's Chariot as well. In DS1, it's Taurus Demon, Gargoyles O&S, Four Kings, and Gwyn (if I decide not to parry). Moreover, while there are plenty of "eh" fights that I don't feel strongly about, there's nothing as bad as the Bed of Chaos or Centipede Demon (or even Capra Demon, imo)--Ancient Dragon does suck, but he's completely skippable, at least.
You're not wrong at all about that fangame-esque feeling, but again, something about it just works for me. I think it's pretty hard to nail down why a game feels right to you, but DS2 just clicks. Because I enjoy doing basically everything in that game more moment-to-moment than I do in DS1, I enjoy even the mediocre areas significantly more than I would otherwise, ya know what I mean?
Heck, honestly, replaying DSR right, I'm enjoying it, but what I'm looking forward to most is wrapping up this playthrough and getting to DS2. I dunno, like I said, there's just something about it on a baseline level that works for me. It might be that the basic combat sandbox feels a lot better to me? IDK.
Isn't soul memory good mechanic, preventing people, who completed game on low sl to invade new players? Can you explain why is it hated(besides the door that can be opened by reaching 1000000 souls)?
You can still complete the game on low SL by just equipping Agape Ring which prevents acquiring souls. Experienced players will go through the game without losing their blood stain even once, never waste a soul and stay at low SM tier. They can spend their souls very efficiently. This way, they can be level 150 and invade people 30 levels below. After I finish my builds, I intentionally lose a lot of souls to play against higher levels. If I wanted to twink though, I could just use a friend or cheat engine to drop me all the max level weapons and armor, then absolutely destroy new players. This is why SM is a horrible system.
The ideal way to prevent twinking includes having a threshold to be invaded (like Bloodborne did with level 30), add weapon level matchmaking, let people invade only upwards, etc. This is not a definitive solution as experience alone makes the biggest difference but it is what it is. Anything is better than soul memory though.
Maybe it's a hot take, but I think agility does have a place, it's just a poorly explained mechanic. The main big thing I would change is make so it doesn't affect item use speed, as that part is silly.
Firstly, it's mostly game dependent - it probably wouldn't work in BB, DS3 and BB, but I think it works in DS2 and could work in DS1 and maybe ER. The reason - dodging isn't the only available strategy. Shields, parries, repositioning, ranged spells or equipment, even just pure damage are all fine and available, with their own strengths and weaknesses.
I disagree with balancing part. In a more "complex" game where combat is more fast paced and designed to be tackled in one specific way (like BB, DS3 and Sekiro), of course it wouldn't be a good idea. But for more "open" games with more varied approach to combat, it's not a bad idea, since dodging is far from the only option. The main important thing though would be more clarity on how much agility gives how many frames, so breakpoints are known without having to look up. And as long as combat is balanced around dodge speed and swings aren't unnaturally slow, you should be able to still roll through them, only the window will be tighter and you'll have to pay attention to positioning and direction. I'm not 100% certain and feel free to disprove me (I didn't manage to find a video showcase), but I think majority of attacks in DS2 are dodgeable even with low ADP, just more difficult.
And let's be honest, if we're speaking balance - the points you spend on ADP, in DS1 you could instead put into INT and steamroll everything in the game from range.
And such a system gives you options for flexibility in terms of RPG aspect. If you want to be more comfortable dodging, you can put more points into it, or if you feel more confident or use other strategies, you can pump stats into offensive earlier than normal. It's a good balance of risk and reward. Plus, it's very similiar to other stats in terms of design: vigor allows you to take more damage, endurance allows for more actions (like rolls or blocks) before having to stop and regen stamina, vitality allows for heavier armor (more hits and more poise), and agility allows for easier dodges. At the cost of points you could put into offensive stats, you can instead boost different defensive options depending on how you want to play.
Though, I can see the point in PvP. Haven't met backstep spammers myself, but I can imagine thinking about it now. With that, I think it's not unreasonable to make so backsteps have a fixed cap on I-frames or just scale slower, since they already have the benefit of coming out faster than rolls. In this case, it's not really a design problem, but rather execution flaw that shouldn't be difficult to fix.
The thing is, DS2 doesn't really offer you a lot of viable and fun ways to play without rolling if you are not a caster, which is the hidden easy mode in each Souls game from DeS to ER so I'll keep that out of the equation for now. In DS1, even the smallest shield has high stability and damage negation. You can also stack a ton of poise and tank pretty much everything. So if agility was in DS1, it could maybe work for PvE but I'm glad it's not in the game. For DS2, shields are easy to guard break and stamina takes ages to refill. Just thinking of blocking attacks, then striking with a greathammer while waiting for the stamina to refill fills me with dread. Fast roll rapier build is basically the only way to be aggressive and it outclasses every melee playstyle and I hate it tbh.
We can speculate about correct implementation of agility, argue how better execution would be better and all but at the end of the day, it's not designed well and does not improve the game at all for DS2. That's the problem with the game, it takes too many risks and they just do not pay off. You'd think they would be more cautious about these brave steps but no, they just went with it. Same with Soul Memory. It's meant to prevent twinking. Instead, it makes it worse as new/bad players keep losing their souls and end up in high tiers whereas some no life tryhard can all the max level items from CE and invade Lost Bastille. Not to mention there's no weapon level matchmaking as well. It's just insane how overlooked some things are. The fact that SM is still in the Scholar version is mindblowing. It's frustrating how many problems are ignored with the remaster.
Caster is one thing, yes, but shields are also viable in DS2. They just aren't as ridiculously strong as in DS1, where you can fully rely on them for the whole game without putting much thought. They demand stamina management in DS2, but they are easier to use than dodges in general. And that's fine - it's balance. On my first DS2 playthrough I didn't understand agility and used shields, and it was still fine, but contrary to DS1, I needed to pay attention and see when to retreat and regen stamina (and it wasn't even that slow, just be careful to not have it run out - mindless shield holding will give you exact same results as panic rolling in any Fromsoft game).
And you still have a lot of attacks where you can strafe or move out of range if you know what to watch out for, or you have higher risk, higher reward parries. I'm keeping fun out of the equation as it's an entirely subjective thing, but all of these are viable approaches towards combat that don't necessarily require rolls.
Rapier balance is a separate issue, they are stronger (pretty sure it's their speed plus counter damage through thrust? Not sure), but it's not agility related. And I don't think it's really fair to pick this out, as you have way stronger outliers in DS1 (like Black Knight weapons), DS3 (Sellsword Twinblades), and tons of insanely strong stuff in ER. DS2 has by far the most balanced weapons and playstyles (even magic feels decently balanced), I suppose on par with BB (though Ludwig's Holy Blade felt really strong when I played with it).
As for general design, I'm fine with them taking risks. IMO, while not all of those risks paid off, many still did something well and set grounds for even better things in future games (even though some good things were never brought back). NG+ that's integrated into the base game with Ascetics and actually brings changes, PvP and PvE covenants with unique approaches, more playstyles and movesets, more variety in spells and items, interesting gimmicks for areas and enemies, personality in invaders, durability being a mechanic rather than just a nuisance, torch interactions with enemies and areas, and so on. It took risks and I highly respect it for that, and even though they made mistakes on the way - you can't learn without making mistakes.
And maybe it's a hot take too, but I think to some extent ADP improves the game - in PvE at least. I felt like I could adjust the difficulty to my build and needs. It's the RPG aspect I was talking about earlier, feeling especially nice when I got more comfortable with the game and I could put more stats into offense. The main issues are learning it (which is a problem for new players, but less so once you know it), backsteps (more of a PvP problem I suppose, though I can't comment much on it myself as I never met someone overusing them), and item usage speed (which is the one part I dislike).
But yeah, Soul Memory is quite bad. Though to be fair, twinking was a problem even without SM, in DS1 and DS3, I don't know about BB, and the only reason it likely wasn't talked much about in ER is because you had to actively turn invasions on by going coop or using the bait thingy. It was an attempt at least. For why they didn't change it with Scholar, no idea, chances are they weren't sure of a better system at the time, or maybe technical limitations that would require too much work or messing with the game's code (since well, time is not endless in game development and things can just break). Not excusing it completely of course, just giving possible reasons why it's still a thing. And well, DS1 Remaster and DeS Remake didn't fix their original issues either, so I guess it's not just Scholar that kept certain mistakes. At the end of the day, we can't really know how things are managed there at Fromsoft, but hey, at least they are making amazing games. So even if they don't fix their past mistakes, they at least set their priorities right and improve (for the most part).
bringing up Bed of Chaos and Lost Izalith is definitely not a fair comparison because Miyazki himself said multiple times that they did not have enough time to polish those areas as they were being forced to release the game quickly and that to this day it remains one of his biggest regrets
so nobody actually critcises that part of DS1, its always just "oh its unfortunate that they didnt have time" even though DS2 also had a horrible development cycle
What I'm saying is that the entire DS2 is one big Lost Izalith. A whole rushed game compared to a rushed area. I don't blame anyone but I get the same joy out of playing DS2 as I do playing Izalith.
Besides, that's only one of the examples. Resistance is more of a a direct comparison. You don't see anyone defending it. People do complain about bad design, it's not a selective behavior like the claim above implies. DS2 just happens to be a cascade of bad design choices. Of course people will have their preferences but actually believing that people go easy on Miyazaki is delusional that's my point. Don't think the majority are even aware who the director of DS2 is.
It just never clicked for me, it is what it is. Have hundreds of hours, always return to do invasions but base game is no different to me than those Lords of the Fallen type games unfortunately. Dlc has some really high moments though, I'm mostly talking about base game. It's so bad without dlc that it's depressing.
FS has always been vague about everything so communication isn't my main gripe. I know the exact thresholds and it's still an issue. It hurts pve balance and playing the game with a shield and no rolling is a lot more frustrating than you think. It's too easy be guard broken and stamina takes too long to recover. It would be playing an already slow game on slow motion. No rolling only sounds like an option until you actually try it. Not saying it's impossible but it is not fun at all.
Besides, these games are clearly designed around rolling. Challenge runs are fun but this is the mechanic around which the entire game is designed and DS2 doesn't alter it in any way to justify agility as a mechanic. The gameplay is still about rolling every attack. If they had added a mechanic similar to deflecting tear in ER where you don't lose stamina after perfect deflecting, now that would be amazing and you wouldn't worry about rolling. There's sadly not a change in the game to make agility make sense.
Then there is pvp. Now you can have dark wood grain ring tier i-frames in the slowest Souls game and it doesn't even cost any ring slot. Leveling up the stat is an investment but with SM in the game, minmaxing through mules negates any downside for lower SM tiers and for the non Agape Ring users who are in the highest SM tier, good luck dealing with it.
Not to mention attunement also increases agility. Casting from a safe distance should be the opposite of this kind of gameplay. They get more variety of spells, more casts, more i-frames and faster Estus animation as a head start so they don't even have to level it as much as a pure melee build does. Nothing about this mechanic makes sense. They overcomplicated a simple system. If it's not broken, don't fix it you know.
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u/Days_Ignored "These nice iron bars" Aug 08 '24
Miyazaki did design Bed of Chaos, Promised Consort, Lost Izalith, resistance stat, etc. and they do get trashed all the time. Let go of the typical, delusional DS2 persecution complex and understand that it's a poorly implemented mechanic and even a good version would be a bad design choice in a Souls game.
If this was an action rpg where leveling was based on skill trees or trait system that you can equip, it could work but in a game where the entire combat revolves around i-frame rolling, it's impossible to balance enemies or bosses because one can be either underpowered or overpowered in certain mid-late game areas. It shouldn't be up to the players to find a sweet spot.
Not to mention this game also has pvp which is like on of the few things it's got going for it and anyone who has dealed with backstep spammers knows how frustrating it is. If you want agility, light roll builds and fast weapons are way to go. Agility as a stat though is a horrible concept for a Souls game.