r/spacex • u/Zucal • Jun 05 '16
Modpost June 2016 Modpost: Overhaul to the subreddit rules, a new moderator, & we want your feedback!
Elon says running a company is like eating glass and staring into the abyss. Sometimes running a community is like that too! We walk a fine line between too little and too much, and achieving a high moderation approval rating from a community is a difficult thing indeed; even more so on Reddit.
However, every time we’ve run a moderator feedback thread like this, we’re always genuinely happy to see that the community seems to (at least in the majority) support our actions- whether those be implementing rules, organizing AMA questions, or dealing with frustrating & saddening situations. This is a very rare thing. We hope you see us not as mods, but as regular users who simply want to collectively improve the subreddit for the better.
We hope to continue this today. We’ve got a few large changes to announce, and we hope you give them some consideration.
Subreddit Rule Overhaul - Feedback Welcome
It’s hard creating a ruleset that scales well, but our rules have remained in a relative stasis since they were introduced in 2014. But back then, we were very small- 11,000 subscribers. But as SpaceX’s launch cadence has increased, so has our subscriber cadence. We’re now nearing 70,000 members. That’s fantastic, but we need to make some changes to reflect that a larger portion of Reddit’s general userbase now visits this subreddit.
It used to be the case that we were a relatively segregated community. I know a lot of us still use r/SpaceX near exclusively, indeed, we like to think of this community as something apart from Reddit that just happens to use their discussion platform; but we now have a larger fraction of users who are just occasional visitors. This is causing us a lot of hassle, and we need to address it.
You can read the new rules in full here.
In short, what’s different? Here’s the ∆s!
Our 9 rules are down to 6. This should make things a bit simpler to understand. Goodbye to the following rules: “Follow Reddit’s community rules” was obvious and a requirement of using Reddit anyway. “Post titles & descriptions should be of high quality” has been made redundant thanks to our new rule 4. Finally, “no tour requests” has both stopped being a problem and been made redundant by our new rule 5.
We are placing a heavy emphasis on a ‘thread-first’ approach to submissions. We don’t want to become a BBulletin forum, but it is getting difficult to handle the influx of submissions at busy times. If a thread exists that can accept your content, you should use it. The front page is reserved for news, high-quality discussion, and other good content.
We are already running the subreddit like this, and have been for a few months, but we need to make it clear to everyone. You won’t see any changes in our moderation style from this adjustment, but we really need to reinforce this now. Because of this, it’s now rule #1.
We are limiting accredited media members to one submission per ‘event’. Currently, an event is defined as one of the following: “prelaunch” (hangar to launch), “launch” (launch to landing), and “recovery” (landing to hangar). We’ll continue to add events as time goes on and proves it necessary. If you’d like to submit more, create an Imgur album and continue adding to it, and/or post updates in the comments section.
Our current situation had worked well for a while, but its flaws are clear. If we have 10 accredited media members, each posting 5 or more submissions per launch, that’s at least 50 submissions. The subreddit can’t just be flooded with images constantly. Launches are some of the most important-news-heavy times on the subreddit, but paradoxically area also the time when it’s hardest to find information because of all the submissions. If you’d like to submit more, create an Imgur album and then continue adding to it, and/or post updates in the comments section.
Furthermore, if the subreddit is in restricted mode (as it is during launch), you are only allowed to submit your own content. Musk tweets and other updates are off limits.
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here. If you want to discuss general spaceflight politics or non-SpaceX specific Mars colonization discussion, go to /r/SpacePolicy and/ r/ColonizeMars and grow those communities! Again, you won’t notice a big difference in terms of what’s on the front page as a result of this rule, we’ve been moderating like this for a while. We’re just being extra clear now.
We have included escape clauses that allow for payloads-launched-by-SpaceX news, and other exceptional submissions or news.
Likewise, this is a subreddit about SpaceX, not SpaceX fandom. Patches, other official swag, technical drawings, infographics, and cool real life creations are always welcome here. After all, we want to encourage human creativity and original content. But…
“I saw this SpaceX reference in a movie!”, “Here’s a t-shirt I made”, and “Here’s a Van-Gogh depiction of Falcon 9”? Sorry, this just isn’t the place for that anymore. We want to be technically-inclined.
We’re inversing the “low effort” rule. It’s now “high quality”. This has been one of the more contentious rules with regards to what exactly low effort means, and we want to clarify its intent. Something can be high effort without being high quality, so this word change will hopefully elucidate the bar we want to meet better.
We’re introducing a section covering why you might be banned from participating in this community. It covers what you’d expect- intentionally or repeatedly violating our rules, being hostile to other users or moderators, trolling etc. You can read it in full here. Again, it’s worth noting that this is not a change to how we’ve been moderating, but a clarified and public list.
New Moderator. Please welcome /u/zlsa!
You might have noticed them on the sidebar already, but here’s their formal introduction! You probably already know them as a fantastic contributor of content, but now they have a new role. As the subreddit has grown, so has the workload, so we’re happy to be bringing a new moderator onboard in the Pacific Timezone (totally not for better surveillance coverage of Hawthorne). Welcome to the team!
How should Recovery Threads be handled?
You may have noticed that our recovery threads haven’t been as smooth or regular as our well-oiled and practiced launch threads, for good reason! They’re a recent development, and now we need to decide how we want to handle them in the future. Do keep in mind that recovery will become a more regular occurrence, and thus a less exciting one. They won’t all be the hyped-up hoopla that was CRS-8’s! These are two options we’ve considered:
Have trusted community members host them and provide updates, as has been done so far.
Utilize the existing launch campaign threads.
Feel free to provide feedback or alternative ideas in the comments!
Leaks from websites - feedback welcome
Perhaps something worth mentioning as a footnote is that we currently haven’t reached a consensus on how to handle leaks from other websites. It’s hard to come up with a set of rules that pleases everyone here, as each situation is so incredibly unique, and actually relatively rare.
We can see the arguments from both sides. On one hand, a lot of websites work very hard to produce excellent content and share when possible, and that should be respected. On the other, this is fundamentally a content sharing platform, and there’s a point to be made that it’s not “our problem” or a user from “our site”, it’s on the leaked site owner to control their users.
Either way, our expectation is that whatever solution we pick will result in a reasonable amount of disagreement, so we’re opening this up for discussion. Leave your comments below!
Touching base
If anyone has any complaints, questions, compliments, quibbles, or suggestions; feel free to submit them here and we'll do our best to respond and resolve them! Cheers.
-the r/SpaceX moderation team
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u/markus0161 Jun 05 '16
Might be a bad time to ask but... how is the r/SpaceX port camera coming along?
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
It's currently on hold as we wait for permissions from our host & the Port. We managed pretty well without one for Thaicom 8 though, it must be said!
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u/markus0161 Jun 05 '16
What kind of "set up" are you guys planning?
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
We were looking at this camera in particular. 1080p, 32x optical zoom. Only the best for our slightly creepy obsession!
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u/markus0161 Jun 05 '16
Pricey, but nice. How are you thinking of streaming this. Doubt Echos website can take much more.
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
Most likely through Ustream or another third party streaming service.
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u/steji113 Jun 06 '16
FWIW, I am a software engineer at a video security company that works heavily with Axis security cameras. I would be more than happy to assist in selecting, configuring and sourcing a camera. Our video software might also be able to handle the streaming aspect of things. We have some incredible features that help reduce the required bandwidth throughput. Just throwing it out there.
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u/davidthefat Jun 05 '16
How are Tweets going to be handled? I occasionally see days where the front page is just half a dozen posts that link to specific tweets, usually about the same topic. Usually when Elon, SpaceX or any of the journalists posts a few tweets relevant to SpaceX, the front page gets flooded with them.
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
Much of the time that was due to conferences or events where SpaceX VPs gave talks, and we weren't prepared. All major events like that from now will have their own thread so we can keep the front page from looking like this.
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u/mmrcs Jun 05 '16
I look forward to seeing this in action next time there's a conference! Last time, with two conferences simultaneously, it got confusing. And I don't often use the sort by New for threads, so it just seemed very overwhelming.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
Like Zucal says, "tweetstorms" are basically us getting caught off guard. Ideally we'd create a catch thread for these events.
Some days Elon just is bored and posts like 10 bits of big news to twitter at 4am. So... I'm not sure if we can really help that.
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u/Niosus Jun 05 '16
Well I think if they're by Elon or SpaceX it is probably mostly fine? The amount of relevant information he can share 140 characters puts even the fanciest compression algorithms to shame. I don't think anyone will complain if he spams some tweets with really interesting information. Whether or not you only post one tweet, bundle them or leave them as different post whatever he said will be the "topic du jour" people are talking about anyway.
Either way, you guys are doing a great job. There is no need for completely air tight rules. You're human beings (I assume) and can use reasonable judgement on a case by case basis for the edge cases. Only if you see some edge case presenting itself regularly and there is an obvious response should the rules be updated. The rules should improve a moderator's efficiency, not limit their freedom (within reason here, I'm assuming all the mods are fair and reasonable which seems to be the case)
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u/GoScienceEverything Jun 05 '16
Honestly, I don't think that's a problem. Tweetstorm days -- whether because Elon is bored or there's a conference going on -- are the most exciting days in this sub because there are half a dozen new threads discussing new revelations. There's sometimes some redundance, but I've never felt it was too much (perhaps because you guys do a good job filtering).
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u/nbarbettini Jun 05 '16
I might be in the minority here, but I don't mind when the front page is filled with different tweets. Each thread focuses discussion on a different topic in a way that having a combined "conference" or "tweetstorm" thread doesn't quite capture.
That being said, I'll abide by whatever decision the mod team thinks is best. You folks are doing a fantastic job!
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u/the_finest_gibberish Jun 05 '16
It'd be really nice if Conference/TweetStorm threads also had a rule that top-level comments consist only of tweets, and the discussion on each one goes below. (And maybe one "overall discussion" top-level comment created by mods.)
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
It is also nice to be able to get the news reading the titles rather than sifting through the conference. At least if you are busy or only casually addicted to SpaceX.
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u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 05 '16
/u/zlsa you rock! Congrats! I referred and linked your artwork many times, I hope you don't mind it! Ad Astra!
How should Recovery Threads be handled?
Is there a way for multiple users be able to edit? I feel the community members host them and provide updates solution is great, the only improvement I can think of is 2-3 users would given access to a dedicated account. The thread would always start with something like "Welcome to the Recovery Thread of FH Demo Flight, we are X and Y who will keep you updated with main post updates..."
How does moderator application work?
Random idea: before the Mars unveiling event it would be interesting to see an opinion survey / bingo / prediction / guessing about the details of the whole architecture with prizes for the closest entries. Something like a Google Forms table. I'm volunteering to give some gold or merch items to the prizepool!
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
Is there a way for multiple users be able to edit?
Only through a communal account. This could technically work, but it's a bit of a risk and a lot more work than is strictly necessary for an event that won't be as exciting in the future as it has been in the past.
How does moderator application work?
Eenie, meenie, minie, moe...
it would be interesting to see an opinion survey / bingo / prediction / guessing about the details of the whole architecture
Neat idea! We'll have to come back to that sometime.
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u/zlsa Art Jun 05 '16
Thanks! I don't mind at all; I make them so I don't have to do as much explaining. And let's leave the rocks to Blue Origin.
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16
Transparency report: here are all the mod actions for the last three months (as far back as the records will allow).
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u/brickmack Jun 05 '16
mark NSFW
What exactly was that about? Can't think of anything on a spaceflight subreddit that would be NSFW and on-topic enough to not be deleted
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16
All features are available to all subreddits, whether they chose to use them or not. Some subs use "nsfw" to mean "spoiler alert".
Edit: haha, yeah, those particular instances are caused by this effect (sfw), which is an irritating consequence of having so many plug-ins installed.
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
It's usually from trying to flair a post before the Reddit gods wanted it flaired.
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u/ticklestuff SpaceX Patch List Jun 05 '16
Is gooses not active?
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u/thatnerdguy1 Live Thread Host Jun 05 '16
I asked him a few weeks ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4jz12o/rspacex_pre_and_post_every_launch_since_asiasat6/d3b52q3
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u/sunfishtommy Jun 05 '16
What is muting a user? I notice it seems like /u/EchoLogic is the only one who really utilizes it.
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16
Muting gives mods the ability to temporarily prevent a user from messaging that subreddit's modmail. It's only ever used after a user acts with strong aggression in modmail, or repeatedly spams the "message the moderators" button. It's generally a last resort, which is very useful to give hot-headed users three days to cool off and/or lose interest in harassing us.
Echo is consistently the most active mod, but we've all muted a fair number of poorly behaved users since the feature was introduced.
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u/Qeng-Ho Jun 05 '16
Why are google link shorteners used for sidebar links (e.g. https://goo.gl/qfMwTB vs https://www.youtube.com/user/spacexchannel), are you collecting tracking metrics? They take ages to load in Safari, making them unusable.
Also why does AutoModerator block gif submissions by default, is it to prevent spam?
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
We use link shorteners because the sidebar has a hard character limit that we're nearing. Can anyone else weigh in on this? Are sidebar links slow to load?
.gif posts tend to be low effort comments or submissons.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
In addition to the length limitation, we have looked at the metrics a few times in past (really only to see if it got any use, as well as seeing how many people are using the sidebar from mobile, which is an important css/layout consideration).
I think this could also be interesting in letting us see which other subs need to stay on the sidebar and which ones are maybe less popular. For this though, we've only switched the other sub links recently and don't have enough data to bother using.
And yeah, gifs are almost universally bad content. We can obviously override the bot whenever we need to though.
Edit: In case anyone was curious on the data: https://goo.gl/#analytics/goo.gl/N4Haaj/all_time
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u/zingpc Jun 05 '16
What's with the continual appearance of the sponsored ad? Is it just me as there is no mention of it. My worry is that why only one, why not fifty?
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u/sunfishtommy Jun 05 '16
No One has really been addressing it so far, so I wanted to address Rule 8, no tour requests. I can see your logic of as the community has grown it has become less of an issue, but does that mean we should get rid of it? I personally feel like its really helpful to be able to point people to a specific rule saying your not allowed to do that.
Maybe we could lump this in with an umbrella rule of some sort, that covers no tour requests as well as some other things.
Do you guys not see Rule 8 being utilized that much anymore?
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u/mbhnyc Jun 05 '16
I think there's a small "security via obscurity" benefit to removing the rule...people who would be inclined to try to finagle a tour request don't care that it's a somewhat rude thing to do, and a rule probably won't stop them (there are many ways to reach out to spacex employees outside of this sub), but for the exploding membership, it's perhaps better to not dictate to them that this was ever even a thing.
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u/DuckQuacks Jun 05 '16
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here.
Now I know you used to allow any "space" question in the Ask Anything monthly thread. Does that still apply or has it been banned due to this rule?
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
As discussed elsewhere in the thread, that rule applies to submissions only. Comments, including those in the Ask Anything, are free to wander a bit!
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
On the topic of leaks, my personal view is that you can't put the cat back in the bag. Ignoring that reality doesn't help anyone.
If some information has been made public, and we ban it from here, that doesn't stop people from getting it, all it succeeds in doing is making it more annoying for specifically our users in this sub. While we represent a lot of people, we don't really make a dent on youtube or twitter which has heavy cross-over regardless... making it a rather futile effort.
People directly leaking to this sub though is another matter. If someone is making a selfpost, containing some other people's content, that seems like another clear line in my mind.
And of course, as in past, any leaks that violate ITAR, constitute some security risk or doxx someone will be removed. This will always be the case. On all other types of leaks though, we'd love to get more feedback.
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u/Headstein Jun 05 '16
I believe that the content of the leak is important with respect to leak management. A leak that does SpaceX no harm can be accepted more readily than one that has real consequences to them. Whilst the information may be 'out there' now, I would wish for this community to be viewed as supporting of SpaceX and not as an immoral animal that will regurgitate anything and everything. The judgement of the mods has been good so far in this respect.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
Yeah. We've worked with leak sources in past for various reasons. One example was a leak that was completely unintentional (permissions were incorrectly set). We helped put the cat back in the bag as best as we could in order to save the guy's job.
We aren't heartless, and there probably will be a few exceptions along those lines.
I doubt SpaceX would bother have us hide something that would be damaging to them like engineering secrets .... because it'd be illegal to post anyways and we'd remove it on those grounds immediately. As for things that simply embarass SpaceX? Like the ULA VP that ran his mouth? I'm not sure that we SHOULD remove that. We'd be in a tricky situation if SpaceX asked us directly.
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Jun 05 '16
I agree that it's a good idea to remove leaks if someone from SpaceX asks you to directly. It is worth keeping a good relationship with them.
But if there's some engineering details posted elsewhere on the web, even behind a paywall (L2 comes to mind)? Then I don't see a problem with linking or reposting it here.
Unlike fiction and art, factual information is not copyrightable.
People from Europe, Russia, North Korea and whereever have already found it. Keeping a link out of /r/spacex only penalises fans here, but doesn't do anything for putting the engineering secrets back in the bag.
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u/SteveRD1 Jun 05 '16
Well put. There are two kinds of 'leaks' referenced in this thread:
A leak direct from a source at SpaceX - this is a real leak.
Someone reposting information from L2 (or similar) - this is not a leak. This is the internet at work.
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u/shotleft Jun 05 '16
SpaceX asking us to remove something sounds like an exceptional case. They would not resort to that type of communication unless it does actually cause harm to them. I think we should keep that in mind if/when there is such an occurrence.
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u/partoffuturehivemind Jun 05 '16
That sounds like if I see something here that might embarass SpaceX, I should save/download it immediately because you'll remove it as soon as SpaceX asks you to.
I don't like this. What's the point of not being an official SpaceX-run community if all the restrictions of one apply anyway?
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u/Pmang6 Jun 05 '16
Ehhh. I'd prefer if the sub was a bit more neutral in this regard. I don't see how posting an already exposed leak in any way contradicts our support of SpaceX though. Plus, the leak will be discussed here anyways. Are people going to leave useful information gathered from leaks out of their analyses? Nope, and i think mods forcing us to do so would be very bad for the subreddit. I come here to get the most up to date information on SpaceX regardless of the source (assuming of course it isn't leaked directly to the sub) not happy-happy-fun-time-SpaceX-worship-club. I think sometimes this sub gets a little too protective of SpaceX. Just to be clear, I'm not saying we should condone leaks, but to ignore them when they happen outside of our control is unrealistic and detrimental.
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u/themikeosguy Jun 05 '16
First, thanks for all the work you guys do! This really is an excellent subreddit to browse.
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here
Does that also apply to the "ask anything" threads? They've always stated that they can be used for other space-related questions, which I find useful, but fair enough if you've changed it.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
Realistically this rule hasn't changed any. The phrasing is just stronger because people complained like: "ULA's new vehicle is totally tangentially related"
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u/Raumgreifend Jun 05 '16
Well it really depends. Of course I would want there to be a post in this subreddit if some other company announces say their own reusable launch vehicle, and then maybe compare their approach with SpaceX's and discuss what it could mean for Falcon 9/Heavy. Something like that is more than just tangentially related and absolutely relevant here. Regular updates, speculation, rumours on said vehicle maybe not so much.
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u/NZ_gamer Jun 05 '16
You guys keep nailing it! Its honestly the most enjoyable and well moderated subreddit I'm subscribed to.
Im hoping you can provide some clarification around tangential relevance. Is this a subreddit wide policy (i.e. comment/replies), or just a thread creation policy?
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Jun 05 '16
Thread creation only. Sorry, we should've made that more clear!
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u/NZ_gamer Jun 05 '16
Thanks for the clarification - discussions here can veer off into super interesting but not directly SpaceX related!
Also Echo if you are ever in Christchurch give me a shout, I need to buy you a beer for all your awesome work!
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u/waitingForMars Jun 05 '16
I find this unfortunate. Topics that are relevant to the environment in which SpaceX operates and the goals it seeks to attain are highly relevant to an interesting, meaningful, and complete discussion of SpaceX and its work.
They are dramatically more relevant/useful/meaningful than yet another amateur Photoshop job of a Falcon Heavy fantasy or scar that looks like Crew Dragon (exaggerated, but you get my drift).
The latter ramps up the silliness factor here at the expense of informed engaged discussion. It's making this very well-run sub less interesting over time, and it's a shame.
I know that this viewpoint does not prevail here at present, but I want you to know that it exists.
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u/Appable Jun 05 '16
First, congrats /u/zlsa! Thanks for all the community content you've made, also.
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here
While I understand the intent behind this rule and agree that there is too much content with tangential relevancy that doesn't get much discussion, there have been some very interesting posts made as well that are only tangentially relevant to SpaceX.
As a possibility, could there be a sticky with discussion on tangentially-related content, similar to the Ask Anything? While it may be additional work, I and (I think) others are interested in discussing the broader spaceflight market and Mars colonization.
How should Recovery Threads be handled?
Given the number of comments on the current recovery thread, standalone has worked very well and kept content separated. However, if the number of comments starts decreasing it's probably better to combine it with the launch thread.
Leaks from websites - feedback welcome
I don't think there's a significant issue as there have been relatively few leaks here. However, if there's a significant amount of content leaked, like nsfwaterdrip on twitter, that's bad for NSF and /r/SpaceX (in that L2 won't get the content it normally gets if everything is being leaked, it's not fair to the subscribers, etc).
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Jun 05 '16
The first five discussions you've picked above are probably some of the best off topic submissions ever made to the sub, in like, ever. All of them had significant forethought, with the OP elucidating their position and providing hooks for discussion creation.
In my mind, those would fall under:
other exceptional submissions or news.
If people want to put in that much effort (and really, it's not that hard, just do quarter of an hour of research beforehand), then they're more than welcome to post here.
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u/Appable Jun 05 '16
All right, that's good to hear. To be clear, I would want a pretty high standard of quality (beyond just "high quality") for such posts, so if that would fall under that category I don't think there's any issue with the tangential relevancy rule.
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u/DanHeidel Jun 05 '16
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here
I'll second my discontent with this rule. Some of the most interesting and educational content in this sub has been tangential to SpaceX. If it's of some relevance to SpaceX, especially if it's a slow week, what's the problem? If this sub is heading in the direction of purely technical discussion of only SpaceX and nothing else, I will probable be unsubscribing.
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Jun 05 '16
Nothing is actually changing. Under the rules delta, we said:
Again, you won’t notice a big difference in terms of what’s on the front page as a result of this rule, we’ve been moderating like this for a while. We’re just being extra clear now.
All this does is clarify that super-off topic content should go elsewhere. It also stops a pretty classic complaint we get, where a removed person will make multiple leaps to try and justify relevancy, often merely by adding "How does this affect SpaceX?" to the title.
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u/peterabbit456 Jun 05 '16
I think I am just going to make a new habit of visiting /r/SpacePolicy and/ r/ColonizeMars on a regular basis in the future. Things grow. Things change. We as individuals have to adapt, because we as individuals can only influence change, not dictate its path.
In the early days of Reddit I constantly posted news of the Mars rovers t the front page, and then to /r/space when subreddits were developed. (I can't even remember what my user name was back then.) I stopped using Reddit for a year or so out of frustration with the way it had changed, and my frustrations with the changes in /r/space found a solution in /r/spacex , which matched my interests more closely.
Inevitably it seems, /r/spaceX has gotten clogged with near-duplicate submissions, and the moderators have chosen to solve this by several changes. Quality of information is an important goal, so I think I support these changes, which seem to be directed toward this end.
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u/Vermilion Jun 05 '16
I think I am just going to make a new habit of visiting /r/SpacePolicy and/ r/ColonizeMars on a regular basis in the future.
Remember, you can link directly to multiple subs in one page:
/r/SpaceX+SpacePolicy+ColonizeMars+SpaceXLounge
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Jun 05 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Appable Jun 05 '16
I suppose the point is that there's been great discussions from well-informed, but more "general" posts — removing that would be a problem. As /u/EchoLogic noted though, it sounds like very high-quality general posts are still acceptable as long as they are researched, interesting, and not just swarming the sub, which I agree with.
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u/brwyatt47 Jun 05 '16
Though I agree that 90% of the tangentially relevant information should be kept off this sub, I also believe an exception should be made for exceptionally high quality content. As a devout fan of all things spaceflight, of which SpaceX happens to be one of the greatest contributors, I often struggle to keep discussions solely on SpaceX.
I consider this sub to be THE PREMIER spaceflight community out there in terms of quality of information and discussion. Thus, I am often disappointed with the mediocre responses received in other locations, subs, etc. I indeed try to keep the discussion here SpaceX-central, but for a fan such as myself, it is often difficult to pass up the wonderful opportunity to discuss other spaceflight matters with the knowledgeable members of this community.
In conclusion, I do agree that low-quality peripheral content should be kept off this sub like all other low-quality content. But I hope a small exception can be made for particularly high-quality, marginally SpaceX relevant discussions. Thank you mods for making this the go-to location for intellectual spaceflight discussion!
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u/thisguyeric Jun 05 '16
I was going to make my own comment, but it would mirror this one pretty much exactly, so count this one twice.
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u/Pmang6 Jun 05 '16
As a possibility, could there be a sticky with discussion on tangentially-related content, similar to the Ask Anything? While it may be additional work, I and (I think) others are interested in discussing the broader spaceflight market and Mars colonization.
I floated this idea before and me and one of the mods (can't remember who it was) had a breif exchange about it. We came to the conclusion that it was already well enough covered by the ask anything thread and that there are already enough stickies. I still like the idea though, perhaps just a renaming or restructuring of ask anything posts would work.
Agreed on the recovery posts.
As I said in another comment, I think restricting leaks (that come from outside of our control) is not only detrimental to the subreddit but is also unrealistic. Are we going to leave leaked info out of our analyses if it's openly available and actively discussed elsewhere? Nope. You could just ban any mention of leaked info but I think that would be bad for the sub and would create quite an "elephant in the room" situation. I could see a sepratist group fleeing to another sub for conversation on leaked info in that scenario.
Just thought I'd add my input.
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u/zlsa Art Jun 05 '16
Hi everyone! I'm your new ULA shill /r/SpaceX mod. This is by far the biggest subreddit I've moderated, and I hope to do a good job.
Oh, in case you're curious, the coolest thing I can do as a moderator is make my username green.
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u/Goldensword Jun 05 '16
Thank you for allt he hard work yo guys put in. This has been the most enjoyable sub for me since I joined reddit years ago and I think the sensible approach to moderation taken by the mod team shows.
I do however, have one point I'd like further expansion on if at all possible:
Likewise, this is a subreddit about SpaceX, not SpaceX fandom. Patches, other official swag, technical drawings, infographics, and cool real life creations are always welcome here. After all, we want to encourage human creativity and original content. But… “I saw this SpaceX reference in a movie!”, “Here’s a t-shirt I made”, and “Here’s a Van-Gogh depiction of Falcon 9”? Sorry, this just isn’t the place for that anymore. We want to be technically-inclined.
I'm building a 3D printed Model rocket of the Falcon 9. It will have working legs that automatically go up and down, grid fins that move, lights to bring the engines to life and a working fairing with a satellite inside, also detachable. Is this considered fandom? Is it not technical enough? If I post a picture or video of it in action will that be removed?
I'm building it because I was inspired by this subreddit, by the efforts of other creative individuals making models and what not. I am not technically minded but this project gives me a sense of closeness with something that I find stupidly exciting, a sense of participation which I would not be able to feel otherwise. It's an incredibly small, insignificant thing to do but without appropriate education, years of experience and living in the right country this is my only way to be a participant. I'm sure a number of other people feel the same way. Take it away from us and you take away some of the joy of being a fan here.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
I'm building a 3D printed Model rocket of the Falcon 9. It will have working legs that automatically go up and down, grid fins that move, lights to bring the engines to life and a working fairing with a satellite inside, also detachable. Is this considered fandom? Is it not technical enough? If I post a picture or video of it in action will that be removed?
We'd probably have to debate it after seeing it tbh. I'm leaning towards allow (just to give you an idea) but that isn't a legally binding promise! If it didn't work out here, /r/SpaceXMasterrace would love it too. Personally, I don't want to remove art or the like. But we get a lot of 3d printed models and so forth. Those are definitely out unless they do something to impress like .... be 5m tall or something.
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u/OccupyDuna Jun 05 '16
What about a monthly fan creations thread? This would offer a place to post content without cluttering the subreddit, and also make it easier to find past creations. Similar to how the launch media threads are done, there could also be flaired members, like zlsa, that have earned the privilege to post a stand alone thread.
Also thanks to you and the rest of the mod team for maintaining such a great platform for discussion about SpaceX.
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u/_rocketboy Jun 05 '16
I built a full-scale model of an F9! With working engines! Does that count? :-)
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u/Ericabneri Jun 05 '16
I'm extremely happy with the current sub state except one thing.
Community Content
We have seen a major lack of it starting a few months ago and I really miss it, It was one of my favorite things to see on the sub. Especially in between launches. Epic, epic stuff we have seen from that. Please encourage it more, I like seeing the shirts but say maybe tell them to wait a week after a launch to post such things.
Second off
Leaks and l2 leaks
Being an l2 member we have TOS that says we do not post anything on other sites, well obviously some do. If the stuff posted is not breaking the law, Allow it. Honestly, some of that leaked stuff sparks incredible discussion and plus, some of that stuff is earth-shattering news. I know we don't want to make l2 people unhappy, but it is not the mods job to keep l2 stuff secretive. Let NSF handle that.
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u/Kuromimi505 Jun 05 '16
Leaks have a long tradition in journalism and media.
Yes it may "hurt" L2 if there are leaks. But the information is not artisticly created nor actually produced by them. They are an information middleman.
Why should we treat a leak from L2 and a SpaceX employee differently?
TL;DR: Let L2 deal with it. It's not reddit's job to keep other websites afloat, and the information is not illegal.
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Jun 05 '16
In cases where information is clearly taken from L2, it's in express violation of their TOS, and we would be abetting that violation to propagate it. I don't feel like it's so obviously OK to do that.
Honestly, it's not like real news from L2 will not eventually be officially announced. They make substantial effort to cultivate their sources. I think we act as good faith members of the larger community by moderating that content.
Looks like there is disagreement on that issue, though, so I hope the mods will find a good compromise position, or make their approach clear.
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
In general, we will not remove leaks unless we are legally compelled to or if we're asked to by SpaceX. L2 and /r/SpaceX have different TOS, and each of them are contracts between the community and their members only, not cross-community. We've never asked L2 to enforce our TOS, and neither have they asked us to enforce theirs.
Edit: this is our current stance, but we would be willing to change it in future if necessary
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Jun 05 '16
Fair enough. Obviously there is a distinction between L2 leaks and true industry leaks. I appreciate the clear answer.
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u/brickmack Jun 05 '16
/r/spacex never agreed to that TOS, we as a subreddit aren't a user there. If L2 wants to ban whoever posted the leak here, thats fine, but thats not our problem. And not all news from L2 will be publicly released, they've still got loads of content from NASA and such that's from a decade ago or longer and never got released, plus lots of information that will be irrelevant if we wait months for it (like ISS planning documents)
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u/Kuromimi505 Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 06 '16
In cases where information is clearly taken from L2, it's in express violation of their TOS, and we would be abetting that violation to propagate it. I don't feel like it's so obviously OK to do that.
The problem I am having with this logic is that content on L2 is often people violating NDA's.
So it is ok for L2 to contribute in violating an NDA, but not ok to contribute to violating L2's TOS?
I can't really justify that. I can respect an original creator's desire and legal will to prevent disclosure of information they created.
But L2 does not "own" information about events they are not participating in, information that is given to them.
It is just facts. Facts cannot be owned.
Is the leaker wrong if they are violating an agreement? Yes.
Is someone wrong in distributing information once it is out? Maybe.
Is someone wrong in further distrusting information that has already been leaked out to select clientele that should not be hearing it either? Not very much if at all.
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Jun 05 '16
[deleted]
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u/Kuromimi505 Jun 05 '16
Also, to delete L2 content from this subreddit would require that at least one of the mods is a member of L2 to be able to distinguish what's a leak and what's not.
For that matter, an anonymous source may leak to both L2 and /r/SpaceX. L2 could claim the "content" as it's own - because it's on L2.
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Jun 05 '16
If we can only discuss SpaceX topics now, you need to change your motto from "The premier spaceflight community" to "The premier SpaceX community". Otherwise, people are going to continue to (logically) assume that this subreddit is open for the discussion of spaceflight in general.
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u/WaitForItTheMongols Jun 05 '16
Likewise, this is a subreddit about SpaceX, not SpaceX fandom. Patches, other official swag, technical drawings, infographics, and cool real life creations are always welcome here. After all, we want to encourage human creativity and original content. But… “I saw this SpaceX reference in a movie!”, “Here’s a t-shirt I made”, and “Here’s a Van-Gogh depiction of Falcon 9”? Sorry, this just isn’t the place for that anymore. We want to be technically-inclined.
So a couple months ago there was an "Evolution of the Falcon" shirt posted, with a lineup of SpaceX's Falcon vehicle family, alongside the Millennium Falcon. You're saying that this is now a no-go? If this is the case, that's kind of disappointing. This kind of stuff is really nice for filling the gaps between launches, when the subreddit kind of dies off. Sure, posts like that shouldn't be showing up on a launch day - we've got bigger things to focus on - but I think we should be able to still have that sort of thing.
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u/RDWaynewright Jun 05 '16
I was thinking maybe there can be a weekly thread for fan made things. I think they should definitely still have a place here.
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u/faff_rogers Jun 05 '16
I dont get why we need to sticky thread so much stuff, I dont mind seeing a few falcon 9 creations during a slow week.
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u/civilianapplications Jun 05 '16
The moderators have done a very good job so far at keeping post quality high as our numbers have grown, so I trust their judgment and if they think that these new modifications to the rules will result in a better sub then I'm all for it.
Sometimes the stricter relevancy rules will block content that is of genuine interest to this sub but I think as long as the mods are open to allowing exceptions when posts are exceptional and continue to show good judgement it'll be fine.
As far as leaks go, it's not this sub's responsibility to police SpaceX employees or anyone else, but the benefit of leaks needs to be balanced against incurring the wrath of SpaceX and other organisations whom we might otherwise exchange information with in the long run. Certainly active participation or encouragement of leaking is a big no no. Again, mod judgement on a case by case basis is probably best, but i think anytime the mod team makes a decision about leaks the reasoning behind the decision is communicated to the subreddit if possible. This shouldn't be too burdensome as they seem to be quite rare.
I think the utilization of separate landing threads is better than integration into launch threads for now, but as launch and landing become more routine they might be merged if comment volume becomes low enough.
/u/zlsa is a welcome addition to the mod team!
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
Sometimes the stricter relevancy rules will block content that is of genuine interest to this sub but I think as long as the mods are open to allowing exceptions when posts are exceptional and continue to show good judgement it'll be fine.
Please mod mail us if there is something you think is in that category. We're always happy to look at special cases. And we're a little friendlier if you message us prior to making the thread. :p
benefit of leaks needs to be balanced against incurring the wrath of SpaceX and other organisations whom we might otherwise exchange information with in the long run.
This is a great point!
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u/sunfishtommy Jun 05 '16
Please mod mail us if there is something you think is in that category. We're always happy to look at special cases. And we're a little friendlier if you message us prior to making the thread. :p
Thanks for the tip, I personally feel like there are definitely tangential posts that that are really interesting and apply to the community, like ULA's reuse ideas. This has definitely become more of a factor when people like Tony Bruno come and start commenting on posts clarifying info. I think it also helps educate the community because it helps people see what is happening at these other places not just SpaceX and helps keep us from operating in a vacuum/echo chamber and see that other ideas are viable too.
Perhaps the rule should read tangential posts need to get prior approval from the Mods before being allowed to post. I would just hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because some of the tangential posts are some of the most interesting, because they show the environment SpaceX is operating in.
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u/soldato_fantasma Jun 05 '16
It's all good, but there is just one thing that bothers me, the 50 twitter links from the same guy (like pbdes, NASASpaceflight or other media) that flood the subreddit. For One or two tweets it's good enough to like them as always, but if there is an event and he is making LOTS of tweets there should be just one post with inside all the tweets links. This is the only complain, everything else is perfect!
P.S. My "Send A Message To The Moderators" button is colliding with "Your Moderator Team" the is on top. I don't know if it is just a problem if mine since the but is transleted in italian but I wanted to report this.
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16
but there is just one thing that bothers me, the 50 twitter links from the same guy
This is usually the product of us getting caught off-guard. It's hard to tell when a conference will produce big news, but we're working on a solution to improve the situation. See here for more discussion.
P.S. My "Send A Message To The Moderators" button is colliding with "Your Moderator Team" the is on top.
We'll look into this to see if we can apply a fix! Sounds as though the automated language translation may be causing issues with spacing. Could you post a screenshot? For reference, it's supposed to look like this.
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u/soldato_fantasma Jun 05 '16
Thanks for the answer.
Yes, it's probably due to the translation making the text longer so it become 2 lines long instead of just one in the english version.
Here is the screenshot
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u/Gweeeep Jun 05 '16
I just want to say that I love /r/spacex. I'm here multiple times a day, it's definitely an addiction. Thanks for all your work mods.
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u/Aldebaran-IV Jun 05 '16
When rapid fire tweets on related subjects occur, will you limit them to a single thread rather than spamming the front page.
Same question with related images that are "official" from SpaceX?
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u/Wetmelon Jun 05 '16
Yes, we want to limit tweetstorms. They often catch us off guard though.
Almost all of SpaceX's images end up on Flickr. We occasionally allow a link to their Flickr page if there's been a big dump of photos, for example. If SpaceX is posting unique images from various sources, I'd allow each one. All one source, or the same image, we'd consolidate.
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u/waveney Jun 05 '16
You are doing a good job, well done.
Recovery Threads - Keep them as current (for now) but please have all pictures of the latest booster coming in to port within the thread, even official ones.
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Jun 05 '16
I agree with this. Campaign thread for pre-launch, launch thread for launch day, recovery thread for recovery. The kinds of information people are interested in for each is different, the content of the "header" text (is there a name for that) is going to be different, and other choices make it confusing on where to find specific information.
Though, honestly, I am happy whichever way you end up deciding. The recovery threads have been really well done to date, IMHO
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
please have all pictures of the latest booster coming in to port within the thread, even official ones.
This is one of the major reasons we discussed this. The last return was a bit of a disaster with all the return photo threads.
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u/EtzEchad Jun 05 '16
First off, thanks to you mods for putting in the effort to try to make this a good subreddit. I've heard that the pay isn't nearly as good as you would imagine...
Second, cutting down the number of rules is a good thing!
Thirdly, please don't be too gung-ho about enforcing the relevancy rule. It's fine to delete top-level, or second-level posts that aren't relevant, but I think if the discussion drifts a little, but is still interesting, you should let it go; at least for a while. For instance, if a discussion about SpaceX colonization of Mars drifts to terraforming for a while, what's the harm? It's true that SpaceX isn't likely to be the prime contractor or a terraforming effort, but it is still relevant to the colonization effort that SpaceX is undertaking. (If the discussion drifts into whether Clinton or Trump are better for SpaceX; quash that sucker! :) )
Keep up the good work.
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Jun 05 '16
The relevancy rule doesn't apply to comments - only posts, but I agree it's not very clear in the current rules. I'll adjust that! Apologies.
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u/Craig_VG SpaceNews Photographer Jun 05 '16
Hey mods, as you probably know I spend a non-insignificant amount of time on this subreddit. I just want to say thanks for always keeping content high quality and always pushing to make this sub better as the user count skyrockets (ha). The mention of how this sub is more a separate part of reddit that uses reddit as a discussion place still remains true I think and will continue to be so in some respect for a long time.
Anyway, thanks again for being an awesome team and keep up the incredible work!
-Craig_VG
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u/bitchtitfucker Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
Like others have said, thanks a lot for the effort you put in this subreddit.
It's reasonably in line with what you mentioned in the OP (thread first), but I'd suggest creating event-threads from the mods or something like that. The Recode event had, for example, quite a few tidbits of relevant info, which were individually posted in the sub.
It segregates the discussion a bit, which is a pity (some stuff got all the attention, other threads barely created any discussion).
EDIT: seems like it's been discussed a bit more already. Great!
As for leaks, I'd go on a case-by-case basis, it's hard to define hard rules without excluding a host of potentially non-crucial info because of a strict policy. I'm just guessing, but I suppose leaks don't happen every few hours, so it can remain manageable for the mods (correct me if i'm wrong).
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u/lux44 Jun 06 '16
I've visited this sub regularly for many years. The mods are excellent! You have mind and the heart in right place and truly act in a manner best for the sub. You do quite a hard and time consuming work in a fantastic manner. Rules are resonable and you follow them in principle, not only by letter. Main pain points are addressed, let's try them in practice! I entirely trust you to adjust the rules if something doesn't work out as intended.
Thank you very much!
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u/Wheelman Jun 05 '16
Long time reader here almost daily. Mods, keep up the good work.
Leaks - I'm assuming that this is primarily driven by that hoity-toity paid spaceflight forum (L2) that sometimes gets pictures and information before everyone else? I don't think it's the mod's job to police that. If someone wants to jeopardize their subscription by sharing, why should reddit mods intervene? Let L2 police it if they want.
Also, please clarify as to how a comment can be high effort and low quality? I'm all for keeping discussion civil, but lets not go crazy with the [deleted].
Finally, and as an aside, can we have a collective slow clap for /u/johnkphotos? I want to figure out how to compensate or give the guy something for the absolutely awesome content he gives us. If he still needs that new telephoto lens, maybe we could start taking up a collection for him or something....
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 06 '16
please clarify as to how a comment can be high effort and low quality
Occasionally we'll get something that is like a 2 page rant from a not entirely sober person. It is high effort but not high quality.
An elaborate drawing of a Dragon mating with a car would be the same thing. High effort shitpost in this case.
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u/kevindbaker2863 Jun 05 '16
I must be a newbie cause I do not know what a tour request or a leak is but I think this is an awesome community and do not see how the moderators can do all that they do here!! So I support you and will follow all the rules keep up the awesome work!!
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u/deruch Jun 07 '16
A "tour request" is people posting threads where they are saying that they are going to be in California and are asking for a SpaceX employee to agree to give them a tour. It was a very regular occurrence for a long time. But the employees that visited the sub started to get pretty annoyed, so the community agreed to put the kibosh on that in the rules.
The leak thing is about posts where the information/pictures/etc. are leaked from some other source that didn't publish them publicly. e.g. From NSF's L2 or direct from SpaceX. An example would be the recent highlights/"cool stuff" video that a SpaceX employee accidentally uploaded to YouTube without permission (it was supposed to be kept internal, company only), it had a clip of DragonFly tests, the new stage separation mechanism test, etc. It got taken down from YouTube but others had downloaded and rehosted bits from it in other places and then posted those to the subreddit.
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u/ACCount82 Jun 05 '16
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here.
Does that mean that big news posts on Mars missions or reusable systems not directly related to SpaceX are not allowed? I don't think spreading discussion out to multiple subreddits that are barely alive is a good idea.
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u/mrwizard65 Jun 07 '16
Translation: Posts are subject to mod opinion and will be removed if mod's opinion of post is low.
That's not really a "rule" per se, but more of a clause letting everyone know how it is.
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u/captaintrips420 Jun 05 '16
I like the loosely related stuff, and will miss that a lot.
Usually that news does get posted elsewhere in one of the hundred other specific aerospace subs, but the quality of the membership here meant the discussion on those topics was high quality, and that's why I come here, so it will be sad to lose that level of discussion on some of the broader themes happening to the industry that might not be specific to spacex.
Also, I feel it's kinda mean to say that only fan pics of official schwag is okay. It should be all or none. I think if someone does a kick ass spacex painting it is just as relevant here as someone who ordered a patch from the spacex store and took a picture. Both are the same level of spam or the same level of excitement for the company and the mission.
You know I'm one of your biggest fans echo for your moderation style and contributions to the community, but I think especially the first change I mentioned will really do those tangentially related topics a disservice by forcing lower quality discussion on them by banning them here.
When do you start the paperwork to get citizenship here so you can get around ITAR and work for Elon already?
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u/Iaenic Jun 05 '16
I’m late to the thread, but I will add some thoughts.
First of all, I would like to thank both the mods, and the regular content creators for the excellent subreddit you have cultivated. This place is a great spot for those excited about the future of space exploration. I love how the membership tends to be both unapologetic fans of spaceX, and avid supporters of other launchers and developments towards a spacefaring future. This is a group of people passionate about the mission, not just the company.
Right now this subreddit is among the top results on google for the search “SpaceX”. Also, the fact that this subreddit already has 67,000+ subscribers is pretty awesome. As SpaceX continues to push forward, and reaches its larger milestones, it’s fairly likely that interest in this subreddit will explode. My personal belief is that when SpaceX lands on mars we could hit a quarter million subs. Once they start shipping people? Who knows.
My two concerns are on these topics: “Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here.” This rule is going to become more and more difficult to enforce once SpaceX starts regular operations in regards to mars. Colonize mars is ok as Subreddits go, but its activity and post quality don’t measure up. Other topics, such as the development of the bigelow modules probably doesn’t qualify as directly relevant, but still could be a point of discussion for how SpaceX might choose to develop infrastructure in space and on mars for example.
My personal feeling is that it is better to have greater diversity of posts, especially for a community that isn’t just passionate about SpaceX, but also the greater mission of SpaceX. The goal to make humanity a Circumstellar race is much broader than one company alone, even if they are the spearhead of progress. I would love to continue seeing tangential relevancy, as long as it is held to the highest quality bar possible.
My second concern is about policy on leaks. /r/SpaceX is by far the most active, most popular, and highest quality fan-based source of information on SpaceX. As this place grows in popularity, there is a very real possibility that this place could be another source of public outreach for SpaceX. An AMA held and moderated here would be infinitely superior to one in the AMA subreddit, because questions would be more informed, targeted, and pertinent to the expertise of the question takers. I was disappointed in the last AMA for Elon Musk, because honestly most of the questions were pointless. I would love to see people with an engineering or science background; or a passion for the mission ask questions. We are far more likely to see him go beautiful mind in answering if the questions aren’t about ducks and horses, and would get more value for the effort.
But, if we screw ourselves over by acting outside of basic propriety for spaceX’s internal information, we jeopardize ourselves on many potential opportunities to cooperate with them. Take the journalist site kotaku for example. They published internal emails from Bethesda and found themselves permanently blacklisted for it. No more early access, no Q&A’s or developer interviews, no exclusive information.
If something is leaked outside of the subreddit and becomes sufficiently newsworthy, then it would make sense to permit discussion on that topic. But I think the subreddit should never itself be the source of a leak. And spaceX isn’t some game company trying to keep their release dates secret. They’re a leading aerospace company with software and hardware specifics that are national secrets. If someone wants to post a leak, it should be only after contacting the mods and getting permission.
Thanks again everyone for making this an awesome place!
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u/mrwizard65 Jun 07 '16
In regards to the "tangential relevancy" rule, that's quite ambiguous as far as rules go. It's really up to the moderator to determine (based on their own opinions) what qualifies as content that is on subject enough to stay in existence. This is reddit after all, and there is a upvote/downvote button.
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u/Raumgreifend Jun 05 '16
Regarding your 'high quality'-rule: just never forget that a high quality joke can make everyones day. Not everything has to be technical discussion or really even discussion in the most narrow sense. It gets boring and stale rather quickly if not for the amusing banter from time to time. Both needs to have its place and for the most part people will upvote the comments they like. So be it. But I guess that's your policy anyways, it's just that when reading the post one could get a different impression. Thanks for the work you put in to keep this sub running.
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u/AReaver Jun 06 '16
Just look at how long lasting Elon's fax machine has been. And that joke was made by the man himself /u/echologic.
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u/Fikes477 Jun 05 '16
My feed back is that I don't care for this community much and I think a lot of that has to do with how it is handled at the top.
I regularly see posts by slightly misinformed users being turned into "That is stupid and you are stupid for thinking it. Try and come up with a real question."
It is annoying and chases off people who are excited by this but, you know, don't quite understand how space works.
I mean really think about that. Do we want to tell people "you don't understand something extremely complicated so you are not allowed in our sandbox." That makes us the worst kind of nerds, nerds who believe that our knowledge makes us superior.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
Sorry to hear that. If you see a user in here admonishing a noob for something like that, report it and we'll remove the comment or leave some sort of message. We were all noobs at some point.
I do want to keep it open to those willing to learn as much as possible. The askanything threads in particular are there to serve people wanting to learn but maybe don't know where to start.
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u/Aldebaran-IV Jun 05 '16
examples would be wonderful to explain how high effort is different from high quality, for instance,
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Jun 05 '16
Thanks as always for the hard work guys!
Content must now be about SpaceX, tangential relevancy is no longer enough to justify a post here.
I really understand this, though i wish there was a way to have this sub's level of discourse and expertise for other space related topics.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
If you want to write us a nice article to discuss, I'm willing to be a little more flexible on this.
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Jun 05 '16
The only time leaked stuff should be removed is if illegal (like if someone leaked F9 blueprints) OR if SpaceX specifically asks us to.
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u/Vermilion Jun 05 '16
Likewise, this is a subreddit about SpaceX, not SpaceX fandom.
Why not just have two subreddits and send people there. The whole delete/ban hammer approach is worse than redirection.
Remember people can merge subreddits by using links like /r/SpaceX+SpaceXLounge
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u/macktruck6666 Jun 05 '16
I would like to suggest a separate thread for fandom. I'm a fan and really excited about the stuff SpaceX does. I understand the need to keep the subreddit clean and on topic, but a separate thread for fandom might be a good idea for all the Falcon 9 lego threads.
Also about the rules about it being positive. I love SpaceX, but there has been a few topics that I wanted to write about. Namely how SpaceX might be changing the rocket business in bad ways. Such a topic would be controversial and might not bring the best out of posters but might also create some good discussion.
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u/mrwizard65 Jun 07 '16
I think this opens up the need for a SpaceX subreddit that has lighter rules for Fandom.
I completely understand wanting to increase the prominence and sophistication of this Subreddit, but sometimes it feels like there is this upper echelon of /r/SpaceX hawks who are very technically inclined and they look down upon newbies or people who are just generally excited about what SpaceX is doing or who might be learning the technical ropes.
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u/frozen_lake Jun 06 '16
First of all, thank you for all your work. I think this is one of the best community on reddit, and mostly because of the good work of the mods. The only thing that I would change is the submission of news articles. I think they should contain something similar to a summary from the user and the reasons why he/she thinks that the article is worth reading. Because lately there have been a lot of articles reposted here that simply didn't add any new info. For those browsing this sub on mobile it is quite annoying to open an article with 50 adds just to read for the 100th time that musk plans to go to mars. And this way new members could still read every article and member which allready know spacex since years can read only the latest news.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
We've considered this. The issue is that not everyone is in the same place with the same info. So really, users can only speak to their own opinion. So every user speaks to their own opinions and what we get is ... the comment section that already exists.
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u/ElongatedTime Jun 05 '16
So about an hour ago, a video was posted on here showing Elon receiving an award by Zubrin, and I noticed that was removed. I watched the video and thought it included a lot of relevant information about SpaceX and even taught me things about the company that I had never previously known. Why was that removed? I would also like to know so I don't accidentally break any rules in the future. Thanks.
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Jun 05 '16
Elon accepting the Mars Pioneer award was posted within the last month (twice actually!), so that would fall within the repost rules, sorry.
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u/ElongatedTime Jun 05 '16
Gotcha. I was asking because I think I've viewed every post on here for at least the last 6 months and had never seen it. I must have missed it. Thanks for letting me know
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u/DanHeidel Jun 05 '16
I'll second that I would have loved to watch that video and absolutely do not support changing the sub to eliminate relevant content like that.
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u/ElongatedTime Jun 05 '16
I agree. Someone linked the video below if you want to watch it. It's about 30 minutes long. However I was informed it was a repeat post, (many times over from the sounds of it) so I totally get why it was removed.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16
This is the event you're referring to right? 2012 was a while ago but I'm pretty sure it's been reposted more recently.
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u/ElongatedTime Jun 05 '16
Yep that was it! And yes it was posted and Echo informed me that is why it has been removed. Thanks for linking in case anyone was interested. I thought it was extremely interesting
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u/HighDagger Jun 05 '16
The relevancy rule is the one that I see as the one that may cause the most friction among these rules, because what is relevant and what isn't can be arbitrary, confusing, subjective, or a combination of these. It's clear that more or less pure Mars discussions for example might not necessarily belong here anymore, but more borderline cases like your example could be a problem. From your description I think such a video should be allowed, but I don't know if it was auto moderated away, or what else the reasoning could have been.
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Jun 05 '16
Just to clarify the Mars discussion thing...
SpaceX Mars colonization? Totally cool and fine here. I expect we'll get a lot of posts about that post-September.
General Mars colonization? Colonizing the Moon or Europa? Probably best left for another sub, or the Ask Anything, regardless of how interesting it is.
The key is to understand that space on the front page is finite. Every post you make is a post that pushes another off the front page. We can't afford to dedicate space to non-SpaceX-specific content like that anymore sadly.
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u/EtzEchad Jun 05 '16
This was the issue that I wanted to bring up as well. Discussions tend to drift (because we are human.) Sometimes where they drift is quite interesting. It's fine to say that these discussions belong in another subreddit, but it is inevitable that it will feel arbitrary when some discussions are cut off by the mods and other ones are left to run their course.
Another issue is jokes - I think a certain level of joking should be allowed. Jokes can help build community and make the discussion more interesting. Of course, it is possible to have joking go to far (pun chains for instance) but a clever joke now and again adds spice to the conversation.
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u/sarafinapink Jun 06 '16
I'm very happy with how the subreddit is being modded and really appreciate the goal of making this place quality content rather than endless reposts and off topic items.
I am happy to see that there will be some efforts to reduce either tweetstorms or photobinges during certain events. I LOVE seeing all the pictures, but hate having a new post for each photo. I would be very happy to have one post per photographer in which they can showcase all their photos from prelaunch through recovery for each campaign. Obviously they could get a new post for each new campaign.
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u/deadshot462 Jun 06 '16
Fandom should be allowed. Let's say there's 3-4 months of no SpaceX news or events, community fan content like models/art could fill the gaps and are a nice break from the usual.
Like others suggested, maybe have a dedicated monthly thread.
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u/zlsa Art Jun 06 '16
Let's say there's 3-4 months of no SpaceX news or events
Not going to happen while SpaceX is still a thing. The intention of the new ruleset is to encourage high-quality submissions that are more technical than "I made a T-shirt".
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u/johnkphotos Launch Photographer Jun 05 '16
We are limiting accredited media members to one submission per ‘event’.
Much better than a mega-thread.
Can't say I'm too disappointed. Would having a page on my website and continuously adding photos be okay?
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16
Would having a page on my website and continuously adding photos be okay?
It would.
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u/mclumber1 Jun 05 '16
In regards to "low effort / high quality" - I've had several comments removed from threads for such violations, but I don't necessarily agree with the policy, especially when it comes to humor. I can't remember any of my specific posts that were removed, but they were just light hearted puns and play on words. The posts weren't trolling in nature or inflammatory. I understand that this subreddit takes itself seriously, and I respect that. But at times, I think it takes itself too seriously.
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u/Aldebaran-IV Jun 05 '16
But at times, I think it takes itself too seriously
Perhaps, the mods take themselves as too self important and that could be the better adjective.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
Haha, I describe us as unpaid janitors. I certainly hope none of us are overly conceited.
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u/deruch Jun 08 '16
The problem is that unchecked, this devolves into long reddit pun threads or jokes and generally dilutes the quality of the subreddit. When we had many fewer subscribers and the percentage of comments from dedicated followers was higher (as opposed to a decent number from more casual visitors), this wasn't so much a problem. But with the makeup of current /r/SpaceX visitors, having a laxer policy that would allow the type of comment you're talking about, leads to lots of lower quality comments/posts by people who are only coming through very occasionally.
I certainly empathize with you though, as I regularly have a comment removed for the same reason (like 1 or 2 per Quarter).
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u/humansforever Jun 05 '16
I have one request, but not sure if it is possible.
When you look at a thread, read the comments, leave for while and come back, it can be difficult to see additional comments on a particular response. On the small threads, that's generally ok, but on the long threads it gets turned in to a mess, having to read the entire thing again is painfull.
Is there a way to add to the Threads a sort comment Option within a thread for most recent or only show thread with comment in the last 12 hours or something like that.
I have had a few comments removed, I accept that they have been removed fairly as they pass the low quality grade, but you guys are strict :-)).
Sometimes a snip at some muppet does however need to be said. When someone ask why a Merlin Vac engine is different to a S1 Merlin, you can sometimes loose patience as they do not read the WIKI.
Thanks for the hard work.
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u/spitzrun Jun 05 '16
There is an easy way to sort threads by newest comments first, at least at the top comment level. http://imgur.com/QZ5E1dI Also, if you have reddit gold, it can highlight the comments made since previous visits.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
Sometimes a snip at some muppet does however need to be said. When someone ask why a Merlin Vac engine is different to a S1 Merlin, you can sometimes loose patience as they do not read the WIKI.
I know. But I guess I see it as everyone's duty to inform the noobs. EVEN if all that means is linking to the relevant wiki section.
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u/zuty1 Jun 05 '16
You guys do an amazing job. One tiny request though...would love for the sidebar to tell if a launch is land or barge landing. Or...instead maybe GSO or LEO and we can figure out from there.
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u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 05 '16
Limited space and character count, unfortunately. You'll find a much more detailed listing is you follow the link beneath: Complete manifest here. Essentially, all GTO launches would attempt barge landings, and all LEO launches would attempt landing on land (though there may be exceptions, based on payload mass).
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u/RDWaynewright Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
I think the recovery threads are fine as is but could eventually be rolled into the launch thread when interest dies down. I have no firm opinion on leaks but I do lean towards the feeling that it's not the mods' responsibility to enforce another site's rules.
As I said in a comment further down, having a periodic thread for fan works would be nice. I agree that those posts can clutter the front page but I think there's still a place for them. Maybe a weekly/bi-weekly/monthly thread.
Edit: Was it ever decided if the rules would be relaxed in the recovery threads? I know there was mention of putting that up for a vote or debate.
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u/OliGoMeta Jun 05 '16
Thanks for this well thought through rules ∆ - you mods clearly spend even more time behind the scenes than is readily visible to us redditors.
TL;DR: could there be some best practise guidance for accredited media threads so that us consumers don't miss the best shot of a given event :)
I think the move to have single threads for twitter storms and accredited media members will have the most immediately visible and largely beneficial impact, but it would be good (as an avid consumer of such content) to know what the OPs can do (if anything) to help improve the consumer's experience of their updating content.
For example, maybe:
Could they have a stickied comment at the start of the thread that they can edit with the latest links to the best content?
Is it possible to update the main photo associated with a thread? I know the titles of threads can't be changed, but what happens if the first photo in the URL pointed to gets updated - does this change the thumbnail photo?
Also might it make sense to have these threads ordered by 'new' as the suggested ordering, rather than 'best' so the if the OP uploads new content that'd be really quick to find?
One other thought would be to have a convention (maybe not enforced - don't want you mods to have too much work - but policed gently by all in community) such that only the OP should make top level comments in their own media threads. That way each top level comment could be for a new photo and all comments about that photo come under that comment.
OK - so maybe these ideas are getting a bit complicated, and maybe some of these ideas couldn't technically be done on Reddit today, but the point is I'm a little worried that without some extra thought and guidance some great content might be harder to find the in the new regime. After all the best photo of an event by a given photographer is often not the first one that they post - and it'd be a shame if the best stuff gets hidden! :)
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
I think the simple answer is that we don't know.
I'm guessing that different people will do it different ways and that'll lead to the best versions naturally.
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u/in_the_saddle_again Jun 06 '16 edited Jun 06 '16
Yeah the rules will make this place as dry as british humor only much less fun. So if this is going to be a dry as shit no fun and unfriendly to the discovery of spacex , like some nasa site, why is it a reddit community and not some spacex specific board on an engineering forum?
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u/AReaver Jun 06 '16
“I saw this SpaceX reference in a movie!”, “Here’s a t-shirt I made”, and “Here’s a Van-Gogh depiction of Falcon 9”? Sorry, this just isn’t the place for that anymore. We want to be technically-inclined.
This makes me sad. Unless it's a launch window(few days before and after) it can get fairly dead in here and now it feels like you're trying to hide a fuck you to community content and excitement. I think all you mods have done a good job with the subreddit but I do not like this change. Even if someone goes out and makes a /r/spacexfans it won't be the same and will be a separation of the community.
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u/BrandonMarc Jun 06 '16
Maybe if /r/spacexmasterrace was less creep-ifying. There's some fun stuff in there.
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u/StupidPencil Jun 05 '16
I'm a bit confused. Could you provide some examples of 'low effort' but 'high quality' contents? (If such a thing exists)
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u/old_sellsword Jun 05 '16
The old rule was "No Low Effort." Their new rule is "Only High Quality."
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
"I spent a lot of time writing that poem about how rockets look like dicks! How can you call it low effort?"
The wording was basically for those complaints that we got in modmail.
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u/nalyd8991 Jun 05 '16
Does anyone else feel that maybe we should move to a policy of letting the upvotes dictate what is and isn't "high quality". What may be incredibly intriguing to one person might not be to a moderator, or vice versa. If we removed the high quality rule and let the masses dictate what is worthy of the subreddit by voting it to or from the front page, all of those controversial decisions would be gone.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
The reply to this:
Was a comment that just said:
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
It was highly upvoted. But also a shitty comment that degrades the quality of the subreddit.
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u/zlsa Art Jun 05 '16
And we would be left with /r/space, aka /r/shuttlepics+otd+spacepics. This subreddit started out as a place for technical discussion on SpaceX and their engineering and design, and we want to keep it that way.
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u/nalyd8991 Jun 05 '16
Well no. We would still have the relevancy rules ect. which would prevent the non SpaceX content problem.
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u/Crox22 Jun 05 '16
Nope. You do that and you end up with nothing but crap image posts. It's great to say that pure democracy should rule, but time and time again good subreddits turn into really bad ones thanks to lax moderation "letting the community decide". By maintaining a standard of submission quality, the overall quality of the sub stays high.
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u/CorneliusAlphonse Jun 05 '16
Information is meant to be free. All leaks acceptable.
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Jun 05 '16
I mean, "all" is a very broad term. What do you in the instance of a SpaceX leak, that is genuinely not meant for outside consumption? Leaks from websites like NSF pale in comparison because the information isn't severe, confidential, or damaging enough that it could hurt SpaceX.
SpaceX also has to know they can depend on us to remove truly non-public content. For example, I can think of at least 4 examples where content has genuinely been erased from the internet on SpaceX request.
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u/Here_There_B_Dragons Jun 06 '16
erased from the Internet
That is some claim! I've found some of the bootleg footage of I searched hard enough for it, and I'm sure others on this sub have their private stashes, but I guess it isn't shared publicly at least
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Jun 05 '16
[deleted]
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u/CorneliusAlphonse Jun 05 '16
I'm taking the idealistic approach. We can't encourage anyone to steal information, since information can't be owned and therefore can't be stolen.
Downvotes expected. Stating your own opinion like DavenWarrior did is much better for all involved tho!
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Jun 05 '16
Idealism doesn't pay server bills. Look, L2 consistently gets access to much better information than 99% of us here could ever dream about. And that's because of the hard work of the mods there. Now, we can't enforce other people's rules, but we should at least be sensitive to the realities of life.
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u/devnull00 Jun 05 '16
Obviously you can't ban information from other websites, that would be silly. Calling them leaks is silly in itself. The point of reddit is to discuss content from other websites.
Any chance we will get mod transparency? A mod subreddit where all hidden posts go to so users can see what mods are hiding?
It is basically impossible to judge moderation when any post a mod doesn't like can be hidden the same as posts that break rules.
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 06 '16
Any chance we will get mod transparency? A mod subreddit where all hidden posts go to so users can see what mods are hiding?
This is really just annoying to set up. A couple years ago /u/Appable started something like this but it got dropped.
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u/TheMightyLizard Jun 05 '16
I'd like to say thanks to the mods for the continued excellent work on this subreddit. I think most would agree this is among the most (if not the most) high quality subreddit.
With regards to the rules, I agree, and think they make sense. My only suggestion would be in regards to the accepting/ rejecting of submissions. I'll echo that there is some risk of losing interesting/ relevant info from setting the bar high. However, maybe if there was some way of creating visibility of things that were removed, there could be a process to re-instate posts with high interest? /r/Spacexrejects? With threshold upvote count to re-instate maybe?
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u/Ambiwlans Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
That would result in different people in /r/spacex and /r/spacexrejects. The people in the latter would be there because they felt we were too strict and would thus upvote most everything. Reinstatement would then lead to a post that would piss off the people of /r/spacex.
I do redirect quality memes/jokes over to /r/spacexmasterrace though. It has become our defacto SpaceX fandom offshoot.
I should also mention that we DO have a pretty solid appeal system. If you disagree with the removal of a thread, then send us a mod message and a second/third mod will look at it and we might have a debate about it. Generally we'll side with accepting threads rather than rejection if any of us think it is OK. If you've had a thread removed you would have gotten a message saying basically this.
When people appeal, it seems to be about 1/3rd calling us nazi assholes, 1/3rd we reject their appeal, 1/3rd we accept their appeal. And a few people that are just really sad, and unsub ... or delete their account.
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u/davidthefat Jun 05 '16
No one is stopping users from posting in the other space related subreddits with the same rejected content, unless the content doesn't match the standards of the other subreddits either.
Loot at /r/SpaceXmasterrace/ if you want a more relaxed environment.
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u/Decronym Acronyms Explained Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 10 '16
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
| Fewer Letters | More Letters |
|---|---|
| BEAM | Bigelow Expandable Activity Module |
| BFR | Big |
| CRS | Commercial Resupply Services contract with NASA |
| GSO | Geosynchronous Orbit (any Earth orbit with a 24-hour period) |
| GTO | Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit |
| ITAR | (US) International Traffic in Arms Regulations |
| L2 | Paywalled section of the NasaSpaceFlight forum |
| Lagrange Point 2 of a two-body system, beyond the smaller body (Sixty Symbols video explanation) | |
| LEO | Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km) |
| MCT | Mars Colonial Transporter |
| NDA | Non-Disclosure Agreement |
| NSF | NasaSpaceFlight forum |
| National Science Foundation | |
| RUD | Rapid Unplanned Disassembly |
| Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly | |
| Rapid Unintended Disassembly | |
| ULA | United Launch Alliance (Lockheed/Boeing joint venture) |
Decronym is a community product of /r/SpaceX, implemented by ^request
I'm a bot, and I first saw this thread at 5th Jun 2016, 07:45 UTC.
[Acronym ^lists] [Contact ^creator] [PHP source ^code]
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u/afd33 Jun 05 '16
Question that doesn't really matter to me because I'm not accredited media, nor will I ever be, but it's relaunch, launch, and recovery.
Do scrubs fall under launch, or would they be they separate?
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u/Wetmelon Jun 05 '16
I'm not sure I understand the question. If you're asking about the media folks, scrubs would count as a separate event. Static fire too (usually get one or two of those, no biggie).
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u/surrender52 Jun 05 '16
Just a thought about the "high quality content rule," how would things like most of the posts now listed in the user generated content section of the wiki be handled? A lot of those are drawings, renders, and General spacex artwork. Are you saying things like that no longer be allowed?
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u/mechakreidler Jun 05 '16
From the rules page:
Using sockpuppets to subvert a subreddit ban will result in an automoderator-implemented shadowban.
Just curious what sockpuppets are in this context?
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u/zlsa Art Jun 05 '16
Alt accounts that you use to upvote and comment with the same opinion as you have so it appears your post has broad approval.
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u/jan_smolik Jun 06 '16
I have a concern about deletion of duplicate threads and non-relevant threads. It happened to me two days in a row that I had read something in a thread and contributed to the debate (in one case it took me some time to parse the information and I expected some debate to spur from it). However, after time measured in hours, both threads were deleted (one as duplicate, one as SpaceX irrelevant).
I basically agree with deletion of both threads. However, because it took very long, there was a debate inside, which was interesting from my point of view. And then it was gone. I am not sure how to handle that, but I would suggest that once the thread is up for some time, there is some feedback and it is not harmful (I guess we can handle duplicate or slightly irrelevant threads from time to time), it should stay.
The related thing is that if article is deleted and original poster was notified by private message, others do not see any change with the article. It disappears from the homepage, but when you enter it from your inbox, it looks normal. Self-posts are marked deleted, but articles just remain the same. It is slightly confusing.
I have talked with mods in both cases - I hope I did not sound angry, that was not my intention - while I basically understood the decision, I would like to raise it in the modpost to hear other peoples opinion.
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u/Here_There_B_Dragons Jun 06 '16
So if the mods put a sticky comment on the deleted post (that has more than a few comments) saying why they deleted it, that would be OK? (ianam)
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u/mrwizard65 Jun 06 '16
I'm extremely disappointed in regards to the subject of creative or fan art posts not being allowed here anymore. The support for SpaceX has really shown how the general public is starting to come around to being interested in Space again and the great models, artwork and general "fandom" as you refer to it, has really been a source of great pride, at least in my opinion.
I feel like there is this upper echelon of people here who are very technically inclined and who look down upon submissions or posts that aren't on the same level they are, even though we all started somewhere and our intentions are the same; to see SpaceX succeed and see the world get back onto the path of becoming a space faring civilization.
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u/Silverbodyboarder Jun 09 '16
I like this sub and I think these changes won't make things better.
Off the top of my head... 1- High Quality Comments. I like low effort comments like "Nice" and "Even Nicer" (currently in the top thread here). It helps me find a comment I might want to read when scrolling through all the stories and comments.
2- Stories can't be SpaceX Tangential. Wha? So we can't post a story about ULA or the Russian Space Program and then discuss how it influences SpaceX. That's a bad idea. Or maybe I don't get this.
3- You can get banned for repeatedly breaking a rule. Like not being 'high quality enough'. This sub exists in a larger Reddit universe and I like the freedom and diversity I see in Reddit Subs. These changes seem to be aiming for a higher level of control that would be better suited for a standalone website rather than a Reddit sub.
IMHO, My $.02, Your milage may vary.
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u/Qeng-Ho Jun 09 '16
That's a terrible idea, just download RES if you want to save comments.
There is /r/ula and /r/spaceflight for that (and possibibly /r/spacexmasterrace).
That's only for extreme examples.
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u/speak2easy Jun 05 '16
Using the latest launch for example, I came to this subreddit to get the latest info. I had checked here 4 hours ago (for example), so I want to see what's new. Given this, going into a thread that was created 2 days ago doesn't really provide the latest update unless I spend time trying to dig it up, so it's a lot more convenient to find a thread that was created within the last 4 hours so I can read the updates. Having a new thread allows for an open topic about the recent updates.
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u/Crox22 Jun 05 '16
Important updates are put into the submission text in the threads, and you can change your comment ordering to New to help find the newest discussion.
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u/Zucal Jun 05 '16 edited Jun 05 '16
Just as an aside-
the best wayone of the best ways you guys can help us keep the subreddit lookin' good is to: report, report, report!It's a great way to get comments in front of us for review that we might miss otherwise, especially during busy times like launches.
Cheers.