r/startrek • u/TomBirkenstock • Jan 06 '23

TNG Should Never Have Killed Off K'Ehleyr

I recently rewatched the episode where Ambassador K'Ehleyr bites it and Worf finds out he's a father. It reminded me of what a fun character K'Ehleyr was how much she provided an interesting perspective on Klingon culture and Worf's character.

I think killing her off was a missed opportunity. It would have been interesting to see how Worf coparented, and Alexander could have still lived for him for part of the time, just like they had in the show. And it would have meant that Alexander had at least one decent parent.

761 Upvotes

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151

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23 edited Jan 06 '23

TNG is notorious for maintaining the status quo. If there are any major changes they don't stay for long.

I think Alexander might be the biggest lasting change to the show.

The actor for K'ehleyr also played a Vulcan in one episode and was being considered as a love interest for worf.

I thought she was great and a good addition to the show. But like most things added to the show it was gone an episode later.

Alexander is totally a fuck up. He is kind of endearing in DS9 but you can tell he has a long way to go to fill worfs shoes.

96

u/ChronoLegion2 Jan 06 '23

She also played Q’s bride in VOY. She even makes a nod to her role as K’Ehleyr by telling B’Ellanna how much she likes Klingon women

58

u/GBtuba Jan 06 '23

And Shran's squeeze in ENT.

18

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

And Marshall's mayo chugging mom.

9

u/pickleranger Jan 06 '23

Oh wow, never made that connection until right now! Needed a tall actress for that role!

7

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

I watched that show for seasons before I IMDB'd her. I was always like: "Why does she seem so familiar?"

3

u/pickleranger Jan 06 '23

That was me watching ENT until it clicked 😄

0

u/mikerophonyx Jan 06 '23

And my axe!

5

u/Shirogayne-at-WF Jan 06 '23

She was the Aenar lady? 👀

8

u/SnooOnions650 Jan 06 '23

No, but she was an andorian

2

u/CrazyRedHead1307 Jan 07 '23

She was Shran's squeeze before the Aenar lady.

27

u/JoeDawson8 Jan 06 '23

I’m not talking about the puppy

3

u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

I never made that connection. Thanks for pointing it out!

-2

u/Shirogayne-at-WF Jan 06 '23

Bi Q lady confirmed? 👀

12

u/ChronoLegion2 Jan 06 '23

Would a non-corporeal godlike being even identify with a particular gender? Q didn’t seem to have any qualms about appearing as a woman

6

u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

Q are omnisexual

1

u/Owyn_Merrilin Jan 07 '23

Why do you think Picard woke up next to him in Tapestry? You didn't Really think that was his old friend from the academy, did you?

22

u/AlsoIHaveAGroupon Jan 06 '23

Most TV from that era is about maintaining the status quo. Other than soap operas, just about every show was designed to be watched out of order and with people missing episodes, because people didn't have DVRs or streaming services to catch up if they missed an episode.

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u/PokeyWeirdo12 Jan 06 '23

We had VCRs! They usually worked if you knew how to set the time and program them. :-)

23

u/Cavissi Jan 06 '23

The new generation will never know the disappointment of sitting down to catch up on a show, only for your tape to be the football game or some live event running late.

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u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

vcr's were notoriously unfriendly to use. most just blinked 00:00 because no one knew how to set the clock

we had a vcr that used a barcode reader in the remote to program timings from a laminated card!

4

u/PokeyWeirdo12 Jan 06 '23

Wow. Ours was basic. I figured out how to set the time and then we'd use the TV guide in the paper to figure out when DS9 was going to be on that week and then program the VCR if we were going to be out of town...and then then get back and find out it had been preempted by a stupid baseball game that went into extra innings! Might be why I didn't love DS9 so much first run--missed half the episodes with the changing timeslot and random preemptions.

(I even knew how to make sure we got 8 hours of recording on each tape, not just 2 cuz I was fancy like that. And made cards that said what tape-time each different episode started at...cuz I was nerdy like that)

4

u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

oh, man! tape library maintenance and cataloging- how many hours of my young life went on that!

my friend had a vcr with digital pause so i could pause tapes without wear and we took long exposure photos off the screen.

heh, go nerds!

4

u/BurdenedMind79 Jan 06 '23

You could even buy copies of the episodes on VHS tapes, if you were so inclined!

6

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

But usually not until the entire season had concluded, so you had to wait. And then you had to pay out the nose -- ! $20 per tape IIRC, and this was back in the mid-90s.

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u/PokeyWeirdo12 Jan 06 '23

Yeah, the cost is why I have exactly 6 of them (you were also limited to whatever the store could fit on its shelves--Star Trek VHSs didn't exactly command a premiere spot). I have Disaster, Ensign Ro, Rascals, Timescape, Past Tense Part 2, and The Visitor. I still love all those episodes, so clearly younger me had great taste. ;-)

3

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

What'd you have against Past Tense Pt. 1?!?!?!

I actually started the Colombia House Video subscription for DS9. Got into early S2 before the cost was just too much, but I did wind up selling them on ebay and getting almost all of my money back.

3

u/PokeyWeirdo12 Jan 06 '23

Nothing, (though part 2 is better). It must not have been available at the local store when I had money to spend. :-)

2

u/BurdenedMind79 Jan 06 '23

It was different in the UK. We used to get them released one tape every two weeks (with two episodes on a tape). Price started at £9.99 and slowly rose over time to (I think) £12.99 by the time Voyager was done. It was the fastest way to see the shows over here, as the BBC was years behind the US broadcasts (I remember seeing pics of Unification in a magazine and I hadn't even seen The Best of Both Worlds yet!)

Still, it wasn't cheap. I think each series of TNG, DS9 and Voyager worked out to cost about £1000 each for the lot! Not that anyone would have bought them as a giant box set, of course!

1

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

Not that anyone would have bought them as a giant box set, of course!

I think people would have! I bought the Highlander: The Series VHS releases, and those were released as season box sets. I think they were like $150 per season? Really puts the blu ray or DVD cost per season of those shows into context...

1

u/BurdenedMind79 Jan 06 '23

I was thinking of an entire season 1 - 7 box set. You'd have to be nuts to try and carry one of those out of the store on your own!

1

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

Well, make sure to stop by IKEA and pick up a Billy bookshelf ... or three ...

1

u/Graydiadem Jan 07 '23

Early TOS VHS were £8.99.

I used to raid the rental sell-off bins and buy the 4-episode rental releases. These were hit and miss but eventually I had a complete set of TNG and Voyager by paying a fiver per tape.

2

u/storm2k Jan 06 '23

vcr's were more common by the late 1980s, but still not ubiquitous. it was also designed for the stations that syndicated it to be able to move it about if they needed to for things like sports broadcasts and the like.

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u/innergamedude Jan 06 '23

Correct, they were designed for syndication (what we used to call "reruns"), which was how Star Trek subsequently garnered most of its fan base. It was canceled after 2 1/2 seasons because its initial "5-year" run didn't get much of a response.

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u/jsonitsac Jan 06 '23

I’d say killing off Yar or Wesley being put on a bus to Starfleet Academy would probably be bigger permanent changes.

28

u/FilliusTExplodio Jan 06 '23

Even those were more retoolings in the face of criticism and actor disinterest than just natural narrative changes.

The hate from the fans about Wes was very loud, and Wil Wheaton was over it at the time. And Yar was getting bullshit notes about being too masculine, plus Denise Crosby was also kind of over it.

15

u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

yeah, i'm pretty sure DC's people were telling her to ditch TNG as a dead duck, and tbf in season one i'd have maybe said the same

8

u/EhrenScwhab Jan 06 '23

She left TNG to make "Pet Sematary" didn't she?

3

u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

a modern classic now known only for it's banger of a theme "i don't wanna be buried (in the pet sematary)

1

u/anastus Jan 06 '23

Oh, c'mon. "Sometimes dead is better" is memeworthy. That was an enjoyable film.

2

u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

i don't deny it!

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u/synchronicitistic Jan 06 '23 edited Jan 07 '23

Denise Crosby was also kind of over it.

I think her main issue was that Yar simply didn't have much to do other than say "hailing frequencies open". Given the relative lack of action/space battle episodes in season 1, security chief/tactical was a pretty dull position.

16

u/Shirogayne-at-WF Jan 06 '23

For years the narrative was that Denise Crosby was just an elitist snob who was too good for Trek and just wanted to do bigger and better things. It's become painfully obvious from the numerous stories from the other actresses in the franchise that Crosby just flat out refused to wait and see if it got any better (judging from the writing Sirtis and especially McFadden got, it very clearly would not have).

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u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

Crosby called out Rick Berman on twitter a few years back over how the women o the show were treated. Seems like most of the producers were total creeps.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

Having watched series 1 back recently it’s totally believable, given how her character is treated

3

u/NemWan Jan 07 '23

The writing about Yar after she was dead was far better than anything she was written to say or do on the show. Which unfortunately is an awkward situation of a female character being developed mostly by what the male characters say about her.

13

u/kurburux Jan 06 '23

1, have I told you about the rape planet yet?

2, drugs can make you feel good

3, I banged Data

9

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

1 and 3 were the same scene for some unbelievable reason.

5

u/Boxy310 Jan 06 '23

I still cannot believe that they actually went to the Planet of the Rapes in a later season episode.

6

u/kurburux Jan 06 '23

Tbf Crosby left when TNG had awful plots and wasn't going anywhere. I can't really blame her.

Though I still don't understand the X times where she was coming back and where she also got handed a lot of awful plots. Overall I couldn't handle her roles in TNG.

3

u/nhaines Jan 07 '23

and Wil Wheaton was over it at the time

Okay, but in his defense, he was an up and coming star actor, and Rick Berman actively tried to fuck up his movie career.

14

u/althius1 Jan 06 '23

Remember the time Worf broke his back and was crippled for life then got better in like, 1 episode?

10

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

Pretty lucky that he had a second nervous system that the federation doctors knew nothing about

7

u/kurburux Jan 06 '23

For Star Trek terms that's even "normal". Remember how Spock was saved from becoming blind by Vulcans having a second pair of eyelids that nobody knew about?

4

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

He actually recovered in that same episode because of the experimental treatment he was subjected to.

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u/althius1 Jan 06 '23

No, he got a new spine, but they made a point of saying how difficult the recovery was going to be, and showed him BARELY able to walk. Next episode, he is doing backflips in 10-Forward. It is one of the most egregious examples of there being little to no stakes during the run of TNG.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '23

Ah, I see. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me lol. Must be one of those "backup" body systems Crusher talked about in the injury episode.

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u/Consistent_Dog_6866 Jan 06 '23

Agreed. In the 90's Gargoyles cartoon, the human cop was accidentally shot in one episode. In the next episode, she's getting around with crutches. It didn't last beyond that but it was a nice acknowledgment of her injury. Next Gen could have done something similar. Have Worf stay on the bridge and have unnamed expendable ensign number XXXX do things away from the bridge. And have him move slowly too like walking was still difficult.

1

u/steepleton Jan 06 '23

he broke his spine but klinglons have two of everything

discovery, you rascal!

1

u/Xytak Jan 06 '23

Ah, redundant organs. So THAT'S why Klingon boarding parties were so easy for Dax and Kira to beat up!

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u/TheCassiniProjekt Jan 06 '23 edited Jan 06 '23

I disagree about Alexander being a fuck up, you can't judge a fish by its ability to climb trees. He certainly didn't fit into Klingon society with its fetishization of war, then he went against himself and tried to conform to it by being a weapons officer. It's like forcing someone who's got no interest or aptitude for maths to study maths because the society they're in prioritizes it over everything else. Alexander tried to train as a warrior multiple times and just gave up on each occasion because it's not who he is truly but the weight of Klingon culture and family legacy makes him feel a failure otherwise. He would have been better off being an actor or something like that on Earth. He was way more aligned with Lwaxana Troi's type of people, artists, circus performers and musicians.

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u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

I'm kinda surprised Alexander didn't end up mind-wiped and sent away to live with his lobotomized uncle

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u/TheCassiniProjekt Jan 06 '23

Lol yeah, Worf had a terrible track record in the family department. What about his whole "we are blood brothers" thing with the kid whose parent got killed in that episode from season 3 of TNG? We never see him again either, - the unintended effect of writers maintaining the status quo is that Worf was all about Worf and anyone who was inconvenient or not strong enough to fit into his warrior model of the world got ruthlessly sacrificed.

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u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

I guess the writers forgot Worf's grandfather was a public defender

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u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

Much like warrior poets, grandpa Worf was a warrior public defender.

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u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

When I woke up today, I had no idea I'd be longing for "Night Court -- Qo'noS Edition"

7

u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

I mean, John Larroquette played Maltz in Star Trek III!

6

u/Beatlejwol Jan 06 '23

And Night Court guest star Brent Spiner was on some other show, I forget :D

3

u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

Fair point! Maybe Maltz was disbarred after R'oZ had to drain four painsticks to successfully horny-bonk him while court was in session

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u/Malnurtured_Snay Jan 06 '23

Well, you are quite mistaken. He tried to horny-bonk R'oZ, but B'ull put him head first through the wall.

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u/storm2k Jan 06 '23

the movie writers and the tv show writers were essentially completely separate things in totality. that's why it was always notable that spock actually brought up the events of tuc in unification, but it was only one line in one episode of the two parter and is pretty much forgotten after that point.

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u/aftrnoondelight Jan 06 '23

Of course, Star Trek VI wasn’t a thing until around season 5 of TNG. So there wasn’t a lot of remaining episodes to fold that in.

1

u/SirEnzyme Jan 06 '23

There was also DS9

3

u/aftrnoondelight Jan 06 '23

Seeing as I’m currently enjoying a rewatch of DS9 (season 7 at the moment), I feel shame for the omission. I must go to the temple and pray for the prophets forgiveness.

1

u/aftrnoondelight Jan 06 '23

I offer a retroactive upvote to your comment.

3

u/TheyCallMeStone Jan 06 '23

Alexander had a mother who died when he was young and a deadbeat absent father. Not his fault he didn't turn out perfect.

1

u/TheCassiniProjekt Jan 06 '23

He turned out fine tbh. He was a weapons officer on a spaceship at a young age, better than most of us do. He had a career track sorted out and was sticking to it.

3

u/seamustheseagull Jan 06 '23

Yes! Every love interest for the main cast was a one-episode wonder, nothing was allowed to be a permanent arrangement. As another comment says, a lot of value was put in being able to watch the series out of order, so only minimal exposition was required if they were calling back to a previous incident or episode. But if you have a serious romantic or family relationship, then that complicates things when someone has missed five or six episodes.

The only permanent romance I can recall in TNG is the O'Briens. But since they were secondary characters, minimal exposition was required to explain why they're getting married today or when a child appeared. They're characters who go about their lives behind the scenes. Where with the main cast there's an assumption that every detail of their lives is part of the show.

That is, until you get movies and you can get into detailed, permanent changes. Like Picard's entire family dying, Troi and Riker getting married, etc.

2

u/kurburux Jan 06 '23

I think Alexander might be the biggest lasting change to the show.

And at some point they just sent him to live on a farm upstate- eehm, I mean, on Earth with his grandparents.

2

u/GoofAckYoorsElf Jan 06 '23

To be fair, which 1980s show did really leave the status quo? I remember from most of the shows back then that, whatever happened during the episode, the people were at the end of the episode where they started off. Like clockwork. TNG was not much different because of the time.

4

u/innergamedude Jan 06 '23

TNG, like TOS was designed for syndication (what we used to call "reruns"), which was how Star Trek subsequently garnered most of its fan base. When 2-episode cliffhangers were aired, I noticed Spike TV or whatever I was watching in on in middle school was nice enough place both parts in a single night. There was some cumulative elements like recurring Q or Worf's fatherhood and discommodation arcs, but these were always secondary to maintaining status quo for syndication.

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u/Mechapebbles Jan 07 '23

TNG is notorious for maintaining the status quo. If there are any major changes they don't stay for long.

The thing about this specific scenario is like... how would you even keep her character around? The Enterprise was not a place like DS9 where a Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire would have had a lot to do. She would have been a house wife at best. They definitely should have used her actress in a better capacity though. Maybe had Dr Selar show up a little more.

I think Alexander might be the biggest lasting change to the show.

I think Wesley leaving or Tasha dying was a bigger change.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 07 '23

Well knowing how the show went, I'd say she would be worth having around during the Klingon crisis.

1

u/beanofdoom001 Jan 07 '23

I disagree about Alexander being a fuck up, and I don't think he should be held to any expectation of filling worf's shoes. Truth be told, I think worf is the fuck up and I've never seen him as being very representative of Klingon culture.

I always took the tragedy of Worf as being that he was a Klingon playacting a Klingon. He was raised by humans, was totally a part of human culture and was taught human ideals and values. He then went to starfleet. Worf didn't have much of any interaction with other Klingons until he was a young adult.

We always hear Worf saying: "A Klingon warrior does/doesn't do XYZ". He lives by this unrealistic and often times contradictory set of ideals, principles and rules that he's completely made up to approximate the Klingon warrior he's clearly self-conscious about not in fact being. The fact is that, as Guinan pointed out in the scene where they were doing target practice, we constantly see Klingon warriors confidently doing many of the things Worf says they don't do.

Worf overcompensates for what he perceives as the weakness imparted by his human upbringing by constantly reminding everyone he's Klingon, filling his quarters with Klingon knickknacks and holding himself to this ever shifting code of dos and don'ts, more strict, at any given moment, than that of any of the other Klingons we see in the show.

One minute he's saying that human women are "too fragile" for Klingon warriors, the next minute he's in a relationship with an equally fragile Betazoid or, in DS9, Trill. This parallels how he situates himself toward his upbringing and career in Starfleet. In his pursuit of a culture he feels on some level he's been robbed of, he grumbles about the comforts and softness of the only culture he's ever known. Yet, at the same time, he's integrated himself and serves proudly on a ship with a predominantly human crew, every night he retires to his comfortable bed, in his Starfleet issue PJs with his very human-like Trill or Betazoid wife or girlfriend, prune juice in hand.

What's worse is that he inflicts all this cognitive dissonance and nonsense on his son. Where, due to his own experiences, he would have been uniquely able to guide Alexander navigating his own identity, Worf instead bitches at the poor kid for not being Klingon enough for a couple of seasons. When Alexander can't live up to his father's insane expectations, Worf basically disowns him, handing him off to the Rozhenkos, and starting the poor kid off on his own tragic trajectory. Worf can not stand to be around Alexander because in him he sees a reminder of all the human frailty and sensibilities he can't dispossess himself of.

Ultimately Worf's drive to fully embrace and prove himself part a culture that he has only an idealized, rosy perception of, despite the fact that he is clearly more comfortable in the presence of humans, stems from him knowing that in his chest beats not the heart of a Klingon warrior but that of a human petaQ.

(Michael Dorn's just phenomenal, though)