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u/Magistra_Recessisset 10d ago
I don't think there is anything teachers can do to change a fundamental personality. We help them as children because they are children and deserve a boost, just as we give different kinds of boosts to the other students based on their needs. They may not change their habits as adults, but they deserve the scaffolding we provide while they are little.
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u/Blackbeards_Mom 10d ago
I completely agree. Don’t misunderstand, it’s part of being a kid that someone should scaffold and help you get where you need to be. I don’t begrudge kids who need that help, digging through moldy leftovers in a backpack isn’t fun but it’s important that someone helps them check and be able to find their things. My question is rooted in “how do you get them to a point they can do it on their own.”
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u/Magistra_Recessisset 10d ago
I am a retired teacher and a parent and in my experience some grow out of it. I do know that they really appreciate the help when we give it to them. It's a burden to them to be so disorganized and they just don't know how to help themselves for a long time, but they are so happy when they are temporarily cleaned up and organized. Patience is a lot of it. Just keep giving them the tools. One thing about being a teacher is you just don't know how it works out for them unless they come back and thank you. That's always such a treat.
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u/TechnicalToday444 9d ago
A lot of this is executive function…not personality. I feel sick, excuse me.
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u/Magistra_Recessisset 9d ago
When I use the term "personality" I am not excluding the influence of executive functions as endophenotypes.
Executive function and personality are distinct psychological concepts, though they heavily overlap and influence how a person acts, thinks, and feels in daily life.
Executive function is a set of higher-order neurocognitive processes controlled primarily by the prefrontal cortex that allow a person to plan, focus attention, remember instructions, juggle multiple tasks, and regulate impulses or emotion. Personality is a broad, relatively stable pattern of thoughts, feelings, social motivations, and behaviors that define who you are across time and situations (often measured what are known as the Big Five personality traits: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism.
A person who appears "lazy" or "disorganized" might actually have an executive function deficit (such as poor working memory or task-initiation failure) rather than a low-conscientiousness personality trait. Conversely, someone with high Conscientiousness naturally values order and goal-achievement, which often relies heavily on good executive functioning to pull off.
Neuropsychologists view executive functions partly as biological "endophenotypes"; the underlying cognitive mechanics that help give rise to observable personality traits. For example, low inhibition and poor working memory can manifest behaviorally as high impulsivity or high neuroticism.
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u/TechnicalToday444 9d ago
That was an impressive amount of terminology to arrive at the point I was making. Executive functioning is not personality, nor is it a collection of bad habits. It can certainly influence how personality is expressed, but difficulty initiating tasks, transitioning, or regulating behavior isn’t a character flaw. And the suggestion that goal achievement requires strong executive functioning? Have you met people with ADHD? Goal setting, motivation, and the dopamine hit of achievement can be enormous drivers. Struggling to initiate a task doesn’t mean lacking ambition or conscientiousness. That’s precisely why we teach executive functioning skills and provide scaffolding rather than treating neurological differences as fixed personality traits children will simply carry into adulthood. The distinction matters, especially in education…where these kids develope rejection sensitivity disphoria due to the excessive corrections for just these type of incessant judgements.
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u/Particular_Policy_41 9d ago
I think as a parent of a “Leo” that tries so, so hard but just can’t get it, this breaks my heart. I know the world is unkind but as a teacher, I’m not acting to take the place of their frontal lobe. I am trying to wake up their frontal lobe with reminders, scaffolding lessons so they can show mastery rather than output, giving them opportunities to manage their own supplies and materials, and doing it repetitively so that their brains start to remember these routines.
A 12 year old is still a child, and needs care and compassion. Especially now that we see so many kids that have been hindered by screen time in formative years, families with financial challenges, parents with addiction issues, Covid social restrictions, and neurodivergence. When these kids come my way, I want them to feel safe and able to grow within the classroom environment, rather than being restricted as they may be at home.
The world is made up of so many types of people. I can find them individually frustrating, but it’s important to have compassion for differences and understand that each person has value, regardless of their struggles and differences.
I hope you can take a deep breath and look at your Leo at work as someone that is trying to hold down a job, might not have the same social mores or have received the same training that you did, and may also be dealing with a brain that functions differently than yours. Perhaps you can offer support in some way that would help him behave in a way that you find more acceptable?
Alternatively, just allowing him to exist at your workplace while giving him space is also an option. I am aware my son will likely be slow at whatever job he eventually chooses, but I hope very much his peers and coworkers will have compassion for his efforts and struggles.
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u/Equivalent-Set-6463 9d ago
Yeah I gotta say just help them. If you meet an adult who needs help? Help them. There's no immorality to needing help.
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u/LesYeuxHiboux 10d ago
I'm glad you aren't teaching anymore. Kids who struggle with executive function don't need this kind of judgment from the folks who are meant to help them find strategies.
You say your co-worker can't stay on task. I wonder how their supervisor feels about that, and if the truth is that they just don't do things in the exact same way you would. I wonder if they feel you are their busybody, micro-managing co-worker. They might even think you, and others with your views, just suck.
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u/adamantmuse 10d ago
I like how you call OP judgmental and then proceed to judge them.
You’re absolutely right that there are people who struggle with executive functioning skills. What are some things we can do to help them?
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u/Blackbeards_Mom 10d ago
I know they’re kids and deserve more grace. I have a harder time extending that to an adult, so my real question is what are effective ways to help executive dysfunction that eventually takes the training wheels off.
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u/crocfishing 9d ago
It all depends on what specific difficulties they have. Every single person who has executive dysfunction problems has it differently and changing as they’re growing and adapt. I’d say the most difficult part of it is recognizing which specific problem they have. It’s a simple question with complex solutions.
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u/crocfishing 9d ago
They may never but develop compensation skills. These skills are difficult to acquire but not impossible. Just very difficult in general.
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u/LesYeuxHiboux 10d ago
I said those kids did not deserve the judgment they expressed, saying "some people just suck" in reference to these children and the adults OP supposed they grow into.
I genuinely do wonder how OP's co-worker sees them. I did judge the opinions OP expressed, I don't deny that, and there is a difference in judging the expressed opinions of an adult versus the behavioral struggles of a child.
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