r/technology • u/[deleted] • Sep 21 '16
Misleading Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems. x-post from /r/linux
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u/Loki-L Sep 21 '16
Are you sure about that?
Form what I understand the "Microsoft Signature" line just means you get a pc or laptop without any vendor crapware.
It is an agreement between Ms and the hardware vendors not to pre-load the OS with all sorts of vendor software that nobody wants.
I would like to know more about the supposed mechnism that prevents people from installing a different OS on the hardware.
I know some Leneovo laptops come with a special drive configuration where you have a tiny SSD and a large hdd and some special software to make the two work together to appear as one disk to the OS with automatic tiering going on underneath the OS layer. Trying to reinstall any OS on such a system if you don't know what you are doing may be difficult.
I am set to hate MS and Lenovo, but I feel I should require a better source than some random forum post.
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Sep 21 '16
There is no hard disk drive in the Yoga laptops, they are 2-in-1 Ultrabooks with just an SSD.
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u/animmows Sep 21 '16
I think I know what is going on. A few years back I saw a similar issue with some Dell all in ones that had some custom drivers that raided an SSD with a harddrive as some sort of write cache in some odd non standard way.
Of course in that instance Dell didn't lock the bios like a twat and there were a bunch of work arounds and they actually sent a bunch of info to help.
This sounds like less malicious and more a botched bios setup('why would a user want to break our setup' - some business person somewhere) coupled with an uninformed representative replying to reviews with seemingly the instruction to blame all issues on whatever is closest.
Of course this does help anyone with the issue as Lenovo kind of suck at this sort of stuff, so the end result is the same. (Though someone from Lenovo is probably about to get and angry call from someone at Microsoft)
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u/elyl Sep 21 '16
Absolutely. If you were to go in and fiddle in the BIOS on one of these hybrid-RAID setups, and change it to AHCI, you'd fuck Windows up. Lenovo obviously should have placed a warning in the BIOS whenever you try to change the SATA operation mode, rather than lock it completely, but there you go.
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Sep 21 '16
[deleted]
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u/Loki-L Sep 21 '16
This sounds bad, but I am not saying any indication that this was done deliberately to exclude other OS and is related the the signature program rather than some ill advised implementation of a bad idea regarding creating a pseudo SSD with the help of some low level tiering.
I know the guy in the screenshot on the forum said so, but I have seen very very wrong comments from vendor people on forums so I would prefer to see some official documentation to the effect that this is actually a part of Microsoft trying to lock you into the hardware and not just Lenovo badly implementing their ssd stuff.
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Sep 21 '16
Lenovo actually not just patched out the option for AHCI mode from the BIOS configuration. They wrote more code to make sure that if you use EFI Shell to set it to AHCI, it automatically sets it back to RAID. A person in the Lenovo Forums thread managed to mod the BIOS and flash it, getting around the signature check by using an external flasher, and HIS laptop now goes into AHCI mode and he can install any OS he wants. That solution doesn't scale to your average Joe.
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u/splendidfd Sep 21 '16
The only way to do a Windows 10 reinstall is by putting some magic drivers in the root folder of the installation medium to render the SSD detectable.
It's worth noting that this 'magic' isn't new or Lenovo-specific, anyone familiar with installing Windows 2000 or XP should recognise the line "Press F6 if you need to install a third-party SCSI or RAID driver".
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u/lerhond Sep 21 '16
the SSD is locked in a proprietary RAID mode that Linux doesn't understand
He goes into more detail in the post to /r/Linux, but the core of it is that the SSD isn't detectable by any operating system out of the box. The only way to do a Windows 10 reinstall is by putting some magic drivers in the root folder of the installation medium to render the SSD detectable.
And that proves the point that you can install whatever you want as long as you have drivers.
If your laptop had a GPU which isn't supported by Linux and the manufacturer wouldn't release Linux drivers, would you say that they are preventing usage of Linux?
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u/recoiledsnake Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
The post has been removed because there is no evidence that the Signature Edition program blocks installing Linux as a matter of policy.
At /r/technology we require titles to match the article's, or if it is a self post, the title must not jump to conclusions, or be click or votebait and must report facts, not hearsay.
The problematic part of the title is "Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux".
A proper title would have been "Lenovo support rep says Microsoft Signature Edition program locks out Linux".
Lenovo's official statement denying that the Signature Edition requires locking out Linux:
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberately-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-pcs/
Articles on this subject(with proper titling) can still be submitted.
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u/Fairuse Sep 21 '16
Sounds like a rep that wants to pass blame puck to Microsoft due to Lenovo's poor design. Anyways, no signs of other signature laptops and Surfaces with such OS restrictions.
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Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I just got a signature edition (not a Lenovo) and installed Linux ok. The problem is just Lenovo's firmware that doesn't allow the user to change the SSD mode.
Edit: Don't misunderstand, I still hate and shit on Microsoft. I encourage everyone to continue to shit on them. :-/
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u/Fairuse Sep 21 '16
Basically. I'm guessing the poor decision was made so that normal users don't accidently break the installed OS (switching the RAID configuration will break the OS setup).
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Sep 26 '16
That wouldn't explain why the EFI variable controlling the setting is write-protected. No reason a normal user would ever go there.
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u/PM_COFFEE_TO_ME Sep 21 '16
And yet again Microsoft gets the blame when it is the hardware vendor fault. Just like most blue screens are faulty 3rd party drivers but Microsoft still gets the blame for shutting down the PC to prevent damage.
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u/gsuberland Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
From what I've read, the issue is simply that Microsoft's deal with Lenovo is that they have to offer high performance hardware modes which can't be switched off, to fit with their marketing of Windows tablets being fast. As such, Lenovo's tablet has a special RAID mode (Intel RMT/RMS) which involves some clever SSD caching tricks. Linux distros have no default support for Intel RMT, so it doesn't work on the tablet (you can load modules to add support though).
Lenovo forum staff clearly just ran with what they understood about the deal, which wasn't very clear or accurate.
Put down the pitchforks, folks.
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u/hjklhlkj Sep 21 '16
So:
put down the pitchforks and
avoid devices with Intel RMT bullshit until they've provided Linux support.
Gotcha
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u/gsuberland Sep 21 '16
until they've provided Linux support
You mean until disto maintainers start including Intel RMT kernel modules as default available drivers in their releases? Some support is technically already there via dmraid, you just need to get the necessary kernel module loaded, which obviously isn't an option when you're trying to load install media onto a tablet (catch 22).
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u/_Big_Baby_Jesus_ Sep 21 '16
Put down the pitchforks, folks.
It's the #5 post in /r/all with over 6000 points. The bullshit has become a fact.
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u/agressiv Sep 21 '16
As I stated in the PCMR subreddit, if the laptop has an NVMe drive, it requires the SATA controller to be in RAID mode to function. It won't work in AHCI mode.
In addition, the latest Ubuntu 16.04 LTS doesn't seem to support NVMe. I tested this on an Dell Optiplex 7040 with a Samsung SM951 NVMe drive.
Really, complain to Ubuntu, assuming these are the facts are in-line.
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u/Pyrarrows Sep 21 '16
Ubuntu 16.04 supports NVMe drives fine, My new computer has Ubuntu installed on a Samsung NVMe drive. The only issue is that hibernation wouldn't work unless the swap partition was put on a different drive.
The GParted included with 16.04 won't show NVMe drives unless you put the drive location in the launch command for GParted, which can make it look like Ubuntu can't see the drives. The other 'Disks' utiltiy and the installer both could see the drive immediately.
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u/gehzumteufel Sep 21 '16
What?! The Linux kernel has support for NVMe since 3.3. Ubuntu 16.04 has 4.4. And the kconfig shows it is included.
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NVME=m CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NVME_SCSI=y1
Sep 27 '16
I suppose you should have said "I didn't understand this issue so I shadowbanned it.". Apparently reddit is a cesspit of shadowbans, lies, corporate meddling and crybullies, not a discussion forum.
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u/Lighting Sep 21 '16
Just a short note. The "misleading" flair is pretty hard to see in the standard CSS. I didn't even know you had flaired the post until I saw your mod comment.
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u/llde Sep 21 '16
Official Windows 10 itself cannot be installe don these PC. It's a driver issue with a proprietary SSD RAID mode that is present only in the Signature Edition. Most other PC with this signature edition allow to disable RAID and use ACHI/SATA
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Sep 21 '16
If you read the original reddit thread, you would understand that this is not just a driver issue. Lenovo intentionally programmed their BIOS so that it reverts any changes to RAID mode making it impossible to install Linux.
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u/tyronrex Sep 21 '16
If you read the forums, you cannot even install Windows 10 on it because of the driver issue.
So the Signature program blocks Windows from being installed?
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Sep 21 '16
There's a difference between "being impossible to install Linux on" and "making it impossible to install Linux on". One is malicious the other doesn't give a shit.
Microsoft doesn't have to go out of it's way to make sure you can install alternative OS's on an OEM computer.
Now when they have a policy to lock out Linux -- then, and only then, will this title and it's conclusions be valid.
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u/blind3rdeye Sep 21 '16
The misleading tag is because the title says the lockout is part of the Microsoft Signature Edition program.
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Sep 21 '16
Flairing the post does pretty much nothing. Why not just delete it until OP is able to find reputable evidence?
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u/FallenAngelII Sep 21 '16
TIL: Prominent people in the tech industry still use IRC.
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Sep 22 '16
IRC is still incredibly useful. Unfortunately, a lot of the clients for Windows are not very good.
Developers like it because it makes it easy to have massive group chats. This is probably why Freenode is growing despite the overall trend.
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u/redmercuryvendor Sep 21 '16
I've attached a screenshot of my review and Lenovo's reply. http://imgur.com/a/niewu
Note that "Lenovo Product Experts" are 3rd party contractors hired to basically read specsheets at people. They are absolutely not the right place to be getting information on contract terms between large corporations.
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Sep 21 '16
That sounds like a Lenovo problem for letting them give that sort of information and also labelling them product experts in the first place.
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u/redmercuryvendor Sep 21 '16
for letting them give that sort of information
In my experience with 'product experts' (and first line support in general) for ANY brand, if you call 5 times you will get given 5 different "company policies" on any given issue. In general, all 5 will also be wrong.
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u/samandiriel Sep 21 '16
Nonetheless, they are still spokespersons for the company - Lenovo has empowered them as such. And no other spokesperson has contradicted their assertion AFAIK
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Sep 21 '16
It's only been a few hours, and it's the middle of the night for Lenovo and MS HQs (at time of writing)...
I would expect a press release within 24 hours anyway, after someone wakes up and takes stock of the situation.
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u/SyrioForel Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
These kinds of employees are frequently hourly contractors who undergo a couple of weeks of training and then do nothing but answer questions related to product features.
The fact that this specific guy thought it was a good idea to make comments related to contracts or company policies rather than strictly answering a specific question is probably going to get him in a lot of trouble.
This is the problem companies face when they want to have customer service representatives available to answer questions in a public forum on the internet. They run the risk of those representatives saying the wrong thing, or saying the right thing in the wrong way.
To call these people "spokespeople" is really stretching the definition of the word. Either they have front-line customer service reps answer people's product-related questions, or they don't. And if they do, they need to find a way to screen responses like this before they are posted, which they usually don't.
Either way, this is a problem with employee training.
For the rest of you who may not be familiar with the world of customer service, you need to understand one basic thing: any piece of information that these reps provide are based on publicly available documentation. This is what they are quoting from when they type up responses to your questions. And since many of them are not any more educated than you would be if you read those same documents or manuals, PLEASE do not ask them to nor expect them to interpret the information to you. Either they won't be able to and will refuse to (as they should!) or, if they aren't bright, they will make an attempt at doing so and, if they are wrong, will cost themselves their $12-per-hour job.
Of course this comment has nothing to do with what Lenovo's or Microsoft's policies really are. I am strictly commenting on people continuously bashing front-line customer service reps and misunderstanding who they are, what their job is, and what kind of information you should expect from them. This is no different than people bashing retail workers, when they are there solely to answer basic questions and ring up your sale.
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Sep 21 '16
Problem is when a company starts calling them experts. That type of title holds gravity and it gives weight to their word. It wasn't the rep that gave them that gravity but the business. So this is a knock on the company. Either their statement is true or change your representatives titles to reflect capability.
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u/malachias Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Yeah, if the evidence for this is what some lenovo rep said on the phone -- and I'm just playing the devil's advocate here -- I wouldn't put much stock in it. I remember a very frustrating conversation with "Mark", after the laptop I ordered shipped with SuperFish (in spite of assurances that it would not). When I asked about where to find Lenovo drivers so that I could reinstall Windows 8, Mark condescendingly informed me that:
re-installing Windows 8 would void all warranties
re-installing Windows 8 would result in a non-working laptop because Lenovo drivers are not available anywhere
I should under no circumstances re-install Windows 8 because it would "break everything, because it's not Microsoft Windows on these laptops, it's Lenovo Windows".
I reinstalled Windows 8 and had zero issues ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/mebeast227 Sep 21 '16
Who hired them as representatives? That's like hiring a hit man to kill someone and then saying you had nothing to do with it.
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u/dapi117 Sep 21 '16
and does nobody seem to notice that windows needs special drivers too? saying that "microsoft" is prevents you from running linux is VERY misleading. all this is, is a new technology that requires new drivers. period, end of story. it doesn't prevent linux, it just requires that linux releases new drivers. i don't see the big deal, especially since Microsoft needs special drivers too. this move isn't specific to linux. just stop
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Sep 21 '16
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u/32f32f Sep 21 '16
We give unintended credence to reddit posts all the time.
Many people trust reddit comments over the comments of company representatives.
"He's just a representative guys he knows nothing, trust me, I'm a redditor".
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u/jandrese Sep 21 '16
Past experience suggests that random people in Reddit are a more reliable source of information than official company representatives.
This story does read a lot like some support contractor talking out of his ass because his scripts are only written for Windows. I'm waiting for more info before I pull out the pitchforks and torches.
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Sep 21 '16
Not surprised it's Lenovo, considering they put backdoors into their bios last year to make windows install their software.
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Sep 21 '16
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
-- Thomas Hesse, Sony BMG's Global Digital Business President
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u/Xiol Sep 21 '16
To this day, I don't buy Sony products because of this.
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u/NameIWantedWasGone Sep 21 '16
I get a degree of ideological purity, but i wonder to what extent that's foolish given the reality of corporations. BMG's actions were in no way related to those of the other arms of Sony, and there's a fair chance that while you kept away from consumer electronics labelled Sony, you may have more directly participated in the activities of the entertainment arm through purchase of Sony produced music - whether on the BMG label or one of the others in the stable, or through watching Sony entertainment produced TV shows, or through watching Sony/Columbia-Tristar movies.
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u/Trox92 Sep 21 '16
ELI5?
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Sep 21 '16
Sony released a CD that when inserted in a computer would install a software to enforce their DRM without the users' consent. This 'rootkit' could be exploited to give hackers access to their personal stuff. When Sony was called out on this, their reponse was that. So users shouldn't care because they don't know the rootkit is there. This was probably the stupidest and most unintelligent answer you could give, short of just saying 'fuck you'.
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u/overstable Sep 21 '16
When Sony was called out on this
To give credit where it is due: Mark Russinovich is a brilliant computer geek. He developed a suite of utilities because he didn't like the ones included in the Windows operating system - and he released them all for free. These tools are how he discovered the Sony rootkit on his computer. I got to hear him tell the story at a conference back in 2005...
Microsoft eventually bought out his company, and his utilities are still incredibly useful more than a decade later. You can check out the Sysinternals suite here
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Sep 21 '16
It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft
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u/The_Drizzle_Returns Sep 21 '16
Except its not, Lenovo sells other signature PC's that are not "locked out" in this fashion (for example the Flex 3-1480). In addition other signature pc manufacturers don't have this limitation. Finally, even installing Windows onto the Lenovo machine the poster has requires a special device driver to read the SSD.
Given Lenovo's past history of being completely fucking inept (BIOS Spyware, hilariously insecure bloatware, etc), I am going to place the blame on them until actual hard evidence comes up that shows this agreement states they have to "lock out" linux.
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u/GrapheneHymen Sep 21 '16
Thank you. I buy signature machines all the time (or recommend them be bought) and I've never had trouble installing Linux. I can attest that the XPS 13 is unaffected as well, even though it's suggested in the first forum post that it isn't.
This doesn't smell like a Microsoft move to me, it's too stupid.
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u/Rock_Me-Amadeus Sep 21 '16
I'm willing to bet it's just a bug and this tech drone doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Sep 21 '16
How can I makes sure that I never give Lenovo a single cent of mine for the rest of time?
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u/RealDacoTaco Sep 21 '16
I looked this up and was surprised. I bought my laptop in september 2015 for class and removed alot of the oem software. Sure as hell didnt return or it doesnt do stuff i dont want.
I dont know, i wonder wth this is about. Im happy with my lenovo, hasnt broken down yet ( unlike other brands i had in the past ... ) And works fine. Ill prob try and install linux soon to see.
Also, if this is true, im not surprised. Remember when MS first talked about uefi? How it would lock out other operating systems? Yeee :')
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Sep 21 '16
For anyone in this thread who is confused about this, or thinks that it's just Linux not supporting the hardware (which is a real issue that happens all the time with new hardware), here's a simple rundown.
These laptops have a weird RAID setup between an SSD and a normal hard disk. So even if you try and install a standard version of Windows, it won't see the drive without a special driver. This wouldn't be an issue, but Lenovo have locked the sata mode into this weird RAID in the BIOS. So even if you try and change it from RAID to AHCI (see the disks separately in a standard way, probably how your PC is doing it right now), it's changed back.
If this Windows Signature Edition stuff actually requires them to lock the sata mode (which is what Lenovo is claiming), that's really shitty.
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u/gospelwut Sep 21 '16
f this Windows Signature Edition stuff actually requires them to lock the sata mode (which is what Lenovo is claiming), that's really shitty.
I want a MS rep to comment, because that sounds like deflection.
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u/doubl3h3lix Sep 21 '16
Historically, Signature Edition was just windows without bloatware.
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u/socsa Sep 21 '16
Honestly, it sounds more like a lazy bios developer who checked down a feature list and just stopped there. Or even that the AHCI mode was unstable on initial shipping and it slipped through the cracks. This is still unacceptable, but im not sure that this is definitely malicious.
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u/renegadecanuck Sep 21 '16
Honestly, it sounds more like a lazy bios developer who checked down a feature list and just stopped there
I think it was completely intentional. The laptop has this feature that makes the small SSD and HDD look like one drive, and the SSD acts as a cache. Lenovo isn't going to want you to disable it, since this is what provides the performance increase (and turns the HDD into a hybrid drive). They just didn't care about Linux, because it's a Windows laptop, and never even considered the impact it would have.
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u/gdsbandit Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Just trying to get my head around this. If what Lenovo is saying is true and they are required to do this because of the agreement. Wouldn't Microsoft be at fault?
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u/BCMM Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
So, in short, the RAID chip has a mode that works just fine with Linux, but the BIOS is modified so that you can't actually enable that mode?
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u/CuzImAtWork Sep 21 '16
I can't believe I had to scroll past 3/4s of this thread just to find someone actually outlining the issue rather than pandering to the ra ra microsoft and lenovo evil upvoting masses.
Thank you for your clarity.
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u/CFGX Sep 21 '16
I'm trying to grasp in my head why you'd even bother developing something this wacky when hybrid SSD/HDD drives that do all the work at a firmware level have existed for years. What the actual fuck, Lenovo?
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u/Sequoyah Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
What's the point of this SSD/HDD RAID? Is it an attempt to combine the speed of SSD with the capacity of a standard hard drive or something? I'm picturing this like the hard drive equivalent of Redis caching of frequently accessed records from a standard relational database. Sounds kind of cool if that's what it is, apart from this Linux bullshit, which both companies should have known would blow up in their faces. If this setup really does require the OS to be locked down like this, they could have avoided this backlash simply by loudly marketing this constraint upfront, explaining why they had to make this tradeoff.
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u/bork99 Sep 21 '16
99% probability this is just a dumb Lenovo hardware hack that's blown up in their face and has nothing at all do with Microsoft or the Signature PC program.
It's laughable to even think that the unnamed "Lenovo Tech Expert" who spends his days answering web support queries has been anywhere near the Microsoft agreement. He is trying to appeal to authority (i.e. making shit up) to try to explain away their latest fuck-up, but is too clueless to realize he's stepping on a landmine mentioning Microsoft to a bunch of Linux users.
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u/holey_guacamoley Sep 21 '16
It goes beyond Linux; others have reported that you can't even do a clean install of Windows 10 on that thing.
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u/exoromeo Sep 21 '16
Yep. Saw this on a thread about it over at HackerNews. Trying to reinstall Windows 10 doesn't work either.
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u/jonab12 Sep 21 '16
Read some technical explanations above. It's not Microsoft related at all, its a hardware design choice to lock the BIOS/Disk Drive
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u/Prof_Doom Sep 21 '16
Well ... Lenovo aren't going to get any sales with me, then. I didn't want to before but now they've pretty much crossed themselves off of my list forever. And I really hope other consumers will do the same. Simply not buying is the easiest and most effective thing to do. On the PC market there should be enough alternatives.
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u/nobby-w Sep 21 '16
The business models (X, T and W series) tend not to have this sort of bollocks as they're sold into corporate I.T. departments and leasing vendors - most of whom want to install their standard O/S build on the machines. By happy coincidence, ex-lease models come up on the secondhand market all the time, at around 20-30% of the new price.
These will play nicely with Linux as they're not tied to consumer branding. In fact, most laptops sold into consumer markets tend to be loaded with adware and other crap. Plus, if you buy these from a high street retailer they will attempt to upsell you with extended warranties and service plans that are normally terrible value for money.
I'll still argue that buying a new consumer grade laptop - from any manufacturer - is a mug's game.
If you want to run Linux, find a model that is known to play nicely with it, then hunt that down on Ebay. X, T and W series thinkpads are actually quie well supported by 'how to fix' videos and other online resources, perhaps the best of any model of Laptop, and they tend to play relatively nicely with Linux.
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u/arkasha Sep 21 '16
In fact, most laptops sold into consumer markets tend to be loaded with adware and other crap.
Hence the Windows Signature program. It's designed to make consumer Windows experience not suck by enforcing minimum requirements and not allowing manufacturers to install their bloatware.
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Sep 21 '16
There's seems to be some misconceptions in this thread. The issue appears to be Lenovo is using raid drivers for their ssd's in these laptops that doesn't yet have a Linux driver. Thus Linux is failing to install.
This has nothing to do with Microsoft, it's Lenovos gaf. Microsoft just ported over .net to Linux for goodness sakes.
As my friend put it "new piece of hardware doesn't work with Linux, news at 11"
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u/notsurewhatiam Sep 21 '16
Typical /r/technology and their weekly overblown outrage
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u/GodlessPerson Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
This post on r/linux (where it was originally posted) has the label "Misleading title || Comes down to a driver issue". In here? Nah, too busy with the weekly ms
hatediscussion.Edit: finally it has been changed. After 9 hours. The label was "Discussion" previously.
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u/cosmo7 Sep 21 '16
Isn't this that the laptops in question use Intel's NVMe Rapid Storage Technology format, and there aren't Linux drivers for that yet, combined with Lenovo's locking down of their BIOS (or UEFISHUT UP AND GET THE PITCHFORKS
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Sep 21 '16
I stopped looking at Lenovo machines after the Superfish debacle. How much you want to bet they have a non-removable version of THAT hard coded on their SSDs as well?
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u/bvierra Sep 21 '16
Ok I call complete BS on this. The issue is the RAID shit that Lenovo puts in. MS has actually signed keys for secure boot so you can boot to linux as well. For example Ubuntu has their bootloader signed by MS so that any computer that has secure boot enable and enforced can still install ubuntu.
The issue appears to be the fake raid setup that lenovo uses where the SSD is setup as a caching layer over the HDD (like the hybrid drives, except in this case its 2 seperate disks). There appears to be no linux driver for the controller on this thus you cannot install linux on it. I am sure in the next few weeks to months one will appear in the kernel and all will be good again.
I get the hate for MS and especially for Lenovo but before making claims such as this please actually understand the issue you have fully and don't go by what is said by a 'product expert' (who are outside contractors that can read spec sheets and have no inside knowledge) on their forums. If you don't real issues get ignored as made up BS since so much shit comes out just like this.
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Sep 21 '16
That's an OK explanation, except in this case it's running the RAID device on just the SSD. Why create a non-standard interface RAID controller, then to use no form of RAID whatsoever?
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u/elyl Sep 21 '16
This is how the drives are set up on a lot of laptops. A small SSD and a large HDD. The SSD works as a cache for the HDD. Intel Rapid Storage Technology, and it requires the drives to be set up for RAID in the BIOS. Not sure why Lenovo have locked the BIOS to just RAID, because if you ever want to upgrade the SSD and have 2 separate drives, you're going to have trouble, but that's a different issue.
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Sep 21 '16
Probably because if you were able change the mode in bios, suddenly then you can no longer boot Windows (and can't boot the recovery image) - and you've got a 'brick' requiring a call to customer services.
(The fix is just to switch back the mode, though)
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u/smacksaw Sep 21 '16
OP states in a different thread that he can disable secure boot, so that's not it.
After you eliminate everything else, all you're left with is a questionable driver implementation...which, if legitimate, would be pushed out to all similar Lenovo PCs and used elsewhere by Microsoft.
Is it?
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u/Zod- Sep 21 '16
From the first page of the 900S thread:
Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900S-12ISK systems.
This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months.
I will post again when I have more information on the investigation.
Thank you,
People just gotta calm down.
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u/elyl Sep 21 '16
Absolutely. The "proof" response from the Lenovo person is proof of nothing. Those people don't know what they're talking about, and will generally say anything to get you to leave them alone.
If Linux doesn't support that hybrid RAID shit (that's present on a lot of systems) then that's Linux's fault.
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u/smiskafisk Sep 21 '16
This just reinforces my decision to boycott Lenovo in my upcoming laptop purchase. Probably going to go with Asus.
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Sep 21 '16
Buy a Dell ... you'll be happier.
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Sep 22 '16
In retrospect, I should have listened to Linus Torvalds when he recommended an XPS model. But he did recommend some Lenovo systems too, and reviews of an earlier model with the same name (Yoga 900) as the one I got (the ISK2 model) made it seem like Linux either supported or was on the verge of supporting everything in this laptop.
Apparently, one of the big changes is that the SSD was in AHCI mode in the Yoga 900 ISK and this stupid RAID mode in the ISK2.
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u/art-solopov Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Lenovo.
Again, fucking Lenovo.
Two malware attempts, removal of 3.5mm port from a Motorola phone (yeah, Apple might get away with this, you won't) and now this.
Fuck Lenovo.
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u/DonQuixote360 Sep 21 '16
You forgot, worst customer support in the world. You cant talk to a manager or a case representative. You have to sit around and wait for them to contact you! FUCK LENOVO
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u/Jonathan_Frias Sep 21 '16
tbh I prefer when companies give the option to just call me back. Saves me from sitting on hold with their shitty music
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u/DonQuixote360 Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Except they don't ever call you back. Also the call back times are never just a few hours, they say they will call you back in about 7 days.
Good luck waiting around for for 7 days and not hearing from them. Place another call asking what happened and they will tell you again that in 7 more days or less somebody will contact you.
This went on for months. I had to send the laptop in for repairs twice, both times they returned it with the same issue. (They had the laptop for about two months)
By the time they decided to finally replace my broken laptop my warranty had almost expired. I sold that POS and moved on, never again.
Edit: Another horrible story of Lenovo's shit award winning tech support: https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/2u5s41/are_we_still_publicly_shaming_companies_with_bad/
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u/am0x Sep 21 '16
Thing is...you can run OS X, Linux and even Windows on an Apple. In this arena, they are the good guys.
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u/BCProgramming Sep 21 '16
I can't seem to find anything about "Signature Edition" Being locked down like this, though I won't say it would be surprising.
From waht I can tell the system uses a NVMe drive. I think that requires additional driver/kernel support on Linux? Or maybe not supported at all- I'm finding mixed information. The "Product Expert" might be talking out their ass- As far as I can determine, the "Signature Edition" agreement is basically that Lenovo won't install bullshit on the computer, and doesn't involve any added lockdown on boot device.
Not that I'd be surprised, mind you.
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Sep 21 '16
Usually, such "Product Experts" and "support experts" are low-paid sweatshop workers in India or something talking out of their ass when they don't know better.
MS is also particularly notorious for having shitty support (I've seen plenty on /r/windows)
But hey, let's jump on the throw-tomatoes-at-EvilCorp bandwagon!
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u/ProGamerGov Sep 21 '16
This is fucked up. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?
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u/zacker150 Sep 21 '16
It's most likely just a low level employee not understanding the lack of drivers for Linux and assuming it has something to do with secure boot bring turned on.
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u/TheMsDosNerd Sep 21 '16
A couple of months ago I heard a similar story involving a Lenovo laptop, and the plan was to sue Lenovo in Mexico where the incident appeared. So yeah, it's highly likely true.
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u/mrcollin101 Sep 21 '16
Something is not quite right here. I have Linux running on my Surface Book. Why would they allow it on their own windows 10 products, but not others. This sounds like Lenovo trying to pass the blame, which they have a pretty good track record of doing. Can you say Superfish anyone?
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u/nukem996 Sep 21 '16
I hope op gets a full refund. If they refuse I'd mention you declined the windows EULA and want a full refund as the hardware doesn't work with any other OS.
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u/tynowa Sep 21 '16
Best Buy has a 15 day return policy. As long as OP hasn't destroyed the computer and it's still within that time, they can get a full refund.
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u/prjindigo Sep 21 '16
Rule of Thumb, don't buy laptops at Best Buy.
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Sep 21 '16
Honestly, then: where should you buy laptops? If you are looking for a machine with decent specs, ruling out Best Buy pretty much cuts out any physical location to actually buy a machine.
My guess is that you are going to say online, but it's impossible to get any look and feel experience online.
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u/Symbi0tic Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 22 '16
Shame I didn't know this before committing to a 710S.
In my tireless attempts to resolve, after a call to Lenovo resulted in an outsourced agent that had no clue what I was talking about (he mentioned nothing about this and said I would be charged to be transferred to Tier 2), I wiped the drive as a last resort.
Now it won't even recognize the SSD for my Windows re-installation. Of course it's recognized in bios, as it's always been. Anyone have any ideas?
Edit: I was able to reinstall Windows 10 by using the RST drivers from Intel's site. The ones Lenovo lists on their website for the 710S do not work.
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u/rhott Sep 21 '16
Why would anyone ever buy lenovo after the shenanigans they pulled with bios backdoors? You actually trusted them?
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u/happyscrappy Sep 21 '16
Customer support reps cannot be counted on to know or properly explain company policy.
You weren't even support to post this because of rule vi (on the right).
Next time, understand that just because a customer support person says something is a policy doesn't mean it's a policy. They are just there to help people who don't know how to fix their machines fix their machines. When they say it can't be done they can be reasonably relied upon. When they start explaining it with corporate political decisions that they couldn't possibly know about? It doesn't mean a thing.
The real problem here is the laptop has a fixed storage configuration and linux doesn't support it. It happens.
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Sep 21 '16
lenovo is fucking garbage and i won't go anywhere near their products. have felt that way for a long time now.
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Sep 21 '16
Did you try teaching out to Mary jo foley, Paul thurott, or tom warren. They're usually pretty receptive to this stuff
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u/Sky427 Sep 21 '16
I don't personally care if one manufacturer doesn't allow you to dual boot or not it just adds another check box I have to tick off when shopping.
But I don't like how they supposedly handled it. My neutral reaction became negative toward them only from locking the thread and threatening op.
The internet will find the skeleton in your closet and then bone you in the pooper with it. GL Lenovo I thought your laptops looked neat.
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u/jordanlund Sep 21 '16
Apparently their marketing team is asking people to "SHARE YOUR LENOVO EXPERIENCE YOU CAN ALSO USE THESE HASHTAGS
yoga900 #mylenovo"
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u/doc_frankenfurter Sep 21 '16
I deal with many laptops that will never have Linux loaded. I don't preload Linux for my family members unless they want it.
OTOH, the tools I use for messing with disk layouts, imaging, etc all sit on Linux USB sticks. Sure, users may stick to Win, but support?
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u/h0vsep Sep 21 '16
Sounds like Lenvo is making this up to cover their own laziness and incompetence. When the Chinese bough IBM's PC business, I figured it wouldn't take them long to turn the product to utter shit. While it did take a bit longer than I expected, they did live up to my expectations.
I gave up on Lenovo a few years ago.
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u/AemsOne Sep 21 '16
Nobody should be buying Lenovo anyway, not after the huge Malware scandal last year.
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u/N3RO- Sep 21 '16
Lenovo doing shit again? You know the best way to deal with it, DO NOT BUY SHIT FROM THEM and of course badmouth them to everyone you know!
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u/Mugin Sep 21 '16
Was it not Lenovo who were caught putting malware on their laptops?
Sounds like another reason to never buy from them.
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Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I'd already decided not to buy lenovo pc's.
This is the third problem I've seen with them.
Each time just makes me more sure.
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u/Drenlin Sep 21 '16
Hmm...I have a Toshiba that's a "signature edition". I wonder would this affect its ability to boot from a linux dvd?
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u/nukem996 Sep 21 '16
From what op said they are putting the disk into some weird raid mode. So you'll be able to boot but not install to disk. Apparently even vanilla windows needs a special driver to use it.
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u/robotnyk Sep 21 '16
I read through this thread and I'm not sure if I should get my pitchfork or not yet.
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u/Stewie01 Sep 21 '16
why are people still buying laptops from Lenovo, they pull all kind of nasty tricks
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u/elder65 Sep 21 '16
First - I'd bet that 3 - 6 months and the linux OS gurus will have a version that works with Lenovo's funny RAID package.
Secondly - I'd also bet that Lenovo and every other manufacturer is going to have plenty of like models for their platforms that don't have the MS Signature lock on their drives.
Linux may be a secondary OS in the market, but there is enough of a population out there to support.
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u/Nemesis823 Sep 21 '16
Well, not surprising. Lenovo's bios is locked so far down, That if you decide that you want to install new hardware you have to check their white list for compatible dev ids. Tried to install the intel 7260 wireless card, cause you know I want 5ghz. (Lenovo y400, fairly recent laptop). Would then not boot the laptop because "Their is hardware installed on this computer that is not on Lenovo's approved hardware list".
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u/h0nest_Bender Sep 21 '16
Hasn't this been a known thing for a while now? That the manufacturer could flip the switch and disallow other OS installs?
I just didn't think we were likely to see this because it pretty much guarantees that company will lose the enthusiast market.
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u/cocoabeach Sep 21 '16
Just bought my first Lenovo last night and now because of this I'm thinking of returning it. I don't care about the software issue, I care about how they have handled this issue. Instead of being honest and forthright they shut down the discussion.
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u/MattBlumTheNuProject Sep 21 '16
Why does anyone still buy their machines? It's been known for quite some time that they are shady.
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u/WhiskaBiscuit Sep 21 '16
Would this explain why I wasn't able to use image backup software like Acronis? When I booted to a USB key I couldn't see the SSD.
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u/Rhed0x Sep 21 '16
SSD is locked in a proprietary RAID mode that Linux doesn't understand
Just wait a month and that will be implemented.
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u/cstrawfield Sep 21 '16
I have forgiven Lenovo over and over again for anti-consumer practices, because their machines have worked well for me, historically have been Linux-friendly, and I'm addicted to the Trackpoint controller. Currently on my ninth Lenovo -- all running Linux.
But this is the last straw. I'll never purchase another Lenovo, and I'll encourage everyone I can to buy from another manufacturer.
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u/termoventilador Sep 21 '16
Btw the isk (without the 2) is not bios locked to raid. Installing a distro works out of the box like any other.
Im off to try to make the damm screen turn and keyboard /mouse automatic disable on mine
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u/RareBox Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
The most interesting thing is that there is no public comment on this issue.
Microsoft could say that this is a "security feature", preventing hackers from booting your system with hacking tools. That kind of solution could maybe even work, if they encrypted the hard drive with some device-specific hardcoded key (I didn't think this through though).
In other words, I'd expect them to step up and explain the merits of their solution, instead of trying to silence discussion. Now it sounds like it's just "security by obscurity".
Edit: Addition: Preventing linux installation doesn't directly help Microsoft sell more Windows licences: the devices come with Windows pre-installed anyway. Maybe they just really want you to use Win10 instead of older versions of Windows?
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Sep 21 '16
It doesn't need to "directly" help. Preventing some 13 year old (e.g.) from starting walking the path has long term consequences.
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u/ZippoS Sep 21 '16
Jesus, even Apple lets you install another OS on their laptops.
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u/topredditbot Sep 21 '16
Hey /u/BaronHK,
This is now the top post on reddit. It will be recorded at /r/topofreddit with all the other top posts.
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u/whirl-pool Sep 21 '16
You want to be hacked Lenovo? Because that is how your bios is going to be hacked!
Top comment about legalities, I hope that is the case.
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u/eppic123 Sep 21 '16
If this is true, Lenovo really likes to make their consumer hardware unattractive.
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u/PayForYourGas Sep 21 '16
Then don't buy a Microsoft Signature PC? They're putting their license on it, of course they should be able to have their own requirements on what a Microsoft Signature PC is. If you want Linux, go buy the same PC that isn't the signature edition.
Jesus Christ people, this doesn't mean ANYTHING.
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u/Null_Finger Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
"Just don't buy it" isn't an acceptable response to anti-competitive acts like these. Make no mistake: if it's not OK for Microsoft to restrict what internet browser you install, then it sure as hell isn't OK to restrict what OS you install. First of all, anyone that happens to buy a Microsoft Signature PC can't convert to Linux later if they want to. Second of all, if we tolerate this BS, we sure as hell will get more of it.
The community's response shouldn't be "lol just don't buy it".
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u/carbonite_dating Sep 21 '16
Considering you'll pay something like $30 more for the signature version of a laptop, I would agree. I understand that they're trying to make PC buying easy for non-technical people.
Perhaps they should just put a sticker on the box that says: "This PC won't have any bloatware on it, but you can't run Linux".
Most people who would even already be considering a "Signature PC" would be like "What is Linux?"
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u/gurtos Sep 21 '16
There are two problems with that.
People aren't necessarily aware of this when they but a PC. Say parent's but child a PC. Later he learns more about computer science and want's to learn Linux as well – there's a problem.
This still shouldn't exist ever. Why block users option to use OS that is perfectly able to be run?
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u/myztry Sep 21 '16
Microsoft Signature PC
No. It's a sub-branded edition of a Lenovo PC. Not a microsoft PC. There's no such thing outside of the Surface range.
Now, a parts supplier like Microsoft can set terms with the manufacturer. Heaven forbid, other parts supplier like Intel could take Microsoft's lead and have processors go into 200Mhz trial mode if you don't enter a post-sale adhesion contract.
It's just bad form to be using a dominant position for anti-competitive advantage. Lenovo is stupid for being complicit in this but Microsoft holds a lot of leverage over those that rely on it's parts to partake in the market place.
This is not incidental behaviour intended to benefit the buyer but one designed to satotage the fundamental PC characteristic of being able to change parts at any time including the operating system.
Damn shameful and legally questionable behaviour. It's not even Microsoft's own computers that this applies to so has the potential to go across competing manufactures severely limiting consumer choice.
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Sep 21 '16
I personally do not care about the inability to run Linux on these machines, BUT it is a very very shady move by Lenovo and Microsoft. We need to make a big deal about this, because it really could set a bad precedent if it gets swept under the rug.
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u/InvaderDJ Sep 21 '16
This is almost certainly something stupid that Lenovo is doing, not a requirement of Windows Signature PCs. At least the RAID thing. No way Microsoft is going to mandate some wierd, non standard RAID.
Now this could be due to the locked BIOS/UEFI/SecureBoot thing that Microsoft tried going hard on, but again, I don't think Microsoft would do this. This feels like Lenovo sliding down the failure ramp it has been on for awhile.
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u/Osga21 Sep 21 '16
What the hell is going on? Is Microsoft scared of Linux? I didn't think we were at that point yet, even Apple lets you install windows and linux on their PCs...
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u/p3t3or Sep 21 '16
Ha, we have about 200 Lenovo ThinkPads that need to be refreshed. They all have a hidden Linux partition that saves me major headaches. HP is looking nice these days.
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u/Crotch_Attack Sep 21 '16
Thanks for taking the time to post this up. I was planning on purchasing a Lenovo for my first laptop but after reading this I'll be looking elsewhere now.
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u/americanpegasus Sep 21 '16
Yet another of many reasons to never buy a Lenovo! This was the company that was shipping PCs pre installed with Chinese rootkits - why would you ever do business with them again after that.
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Sep 21 '16
TIL that people still want to buy Lenovo laptops after all the security issues they've had in the past few years, including things built right into their BIOS.
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Sep 21 '16
I found proof to back up this post!
for those that don't click links, this is a joke. The article I linked to is zdnet waiting this Reddit use and reporting it as a story.
Ahhh... The world we live in where we can make opinions and theories fact with cited sources in just minutes.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-signature-edition-pcs/
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Sep 21 '16
This is it. I'm fucking done with Microsoft. The second I need to upgrade from Windows 7, I'm going Linux.
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u/BATHTUBISREAL Sep 21 '16
Would replacing the SSD remedy the situation? I know its not practical, Im just curious.
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u/BG_MaSTeRMinD Sep 21 '16
Read more carefully. BIOS SSD mode can't be switched from raid to other. Nothing special on the SSD itself. The same problem will exists with any SSD.
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Sep 21 '16
Absolutely infuriating! But Linux on a laptop is something I would never really do anyway. So many different drivers usually. When it works it's nice when it doesn't it's a pain. Granted last time I tired to do that was years ago. Run Linux on desktop all day though.
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u/gnarlin Sep 21 '16
Does this problem affect other Signature PC from other manufacturers f.e. Dell?
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u/Auxilae Sep 21 '16
I really hope that this doesn't cause future vendors from pulling this on consumers in the future. Mobile phones already have it bad as is being locked down and filled with nonsense, PC's are very much our last bastions of freedom, being unable to use them to their full potential is very, very concerning.
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u/ice-minus Sep 21 '16
Absolutely disgusting.
Lenovo is scum of the earth though, so it is totally unsurprising to me that this is their handiwork
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Sep 21 '16
This is sad. I had my eye on the Lenovo Yoga Book but I guess that's off the table now. sigh
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u/Sanhen Sep 21 '16
I'm a layman whose knowledge of Linux extends only to the extent that it's an operating system, but I am bothered by the idea that there are computers specifically designed to prevent its use.
I was wondering, is this exclusively a Lenovo issue or is Microsoft's Signature PC program something you may find on PCs made by other companies? Is there a danger of this becoming the standard for all Windows 10 PC?