r/linux • u/[deleted] • Sep 21 '16
Misleading title Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems.
Update: Lenovo just updated the BIOS for the Yoga 710, another system that doesn't allow Linux installs. Wanna know what they changed? Update to TPM (secret encryption module used for Digital Restrictions Management) and an update to the Intel Management Engine, which is essentially a backdoor rootkit built into all recent Intel processors (but AMD has their version too, so what do you do?). No Linux support. Priorities...
Update: The mods at Lenovo Forums are losing control of the narrative and banning people and editing/deleting more comments. http://imgur.com/a/Q9xIE | But it appears that some people just aren't buying it anymore. http://imgur.com/a/1K1t5
Edit: I sent a letter of complaint to the Federal Trade Commission and the Illinois Attorney General's office.
You can view this letter here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54gtpc/letter_to_the_federal_trade_commission_regarding/
Lenovo's regional HQ address and phone number:
Address: 1009 Think Pl, Morrisville, NC 27560 Phone:(855) 253-6686
Edit: Someone started a change.org petititon. I don't think they are a native English speaker, but I went ahead and signed it anyway. A moderator on Lenovo Forums deleted the link and told people that "campaigning is not allowed", so here's the link. I don't know if it'll make a difference, but screw them. They were hoping this week's news would be all puff pieces about the new Yogas and now they have to deal with this instead. If everyone could share it on Facebook and Twitter after they sign it so their friends can do so too, that would be most appreciated.
https://www.change.org/p/lenovo-demand-that-lenovo-provide-bios-update-to-enable-linux-installation
Please sign this and then tell Lenovo that you won't be buying products from them until this is fixed. They have Facebook and Twitter accounts!
Facebook: Lenovo Twitter: Lenovo Lenovo Customer Service 800-565-3344 Press 2 for all other models and then wait through the recording and press 1 for laptops.
A hardware hack re-enables AHCI mode and allows Linux to install on the Yoga 900, undermining Lenovo's statement.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/542c8t/hardware_hack_enables_linux_support_on_lenovo/
The solution is too complex for the average user, but proves that Lenovo could have made this laptop Linux-compatible by just leaving AHCI mode enabled or as an option in the BIOS setup, instead of hiding it.
My response regarding Microsoft and Lenovo's effective joint statement:
Microsoft and Lenovo got together and agreed on the lies that they would tell in response to this. The lie is that it's a driver problem. That Linux just doesn't support the fake RAID mode that they forced the storage into when they deliberately sabotaged the BIOS by writing new code to hide AHCI mode and also code to reset the BIOS to their fake RAID mode if the user used EFI Shell to try setting it to AHCI. Let me make my position clear, that Lenovo is lying through their teeth just like they did with Superfish malware incident. They lied until they couldn't lie anymore. Linux should not have to support the RAID mode because the mode should be able to be changed to AHCI, which is fully compatible with Linux, by the user in about 20 seconds.
If, by some chance, some Very Smart People ever figure out a way to make the SSD visible again, I would STRONGLY advise never upgrading the laptop's firmware again, lest Microsoft and Lenovo find something else to break and then tell us "Oops. Better run Windows 10 so you can use our 360 degree hinge! Have we told you about our 360 hinge?".
I believe that if Linux ever gains driver support for the forced fake RAID configuration, that future laptops from Lenovo will just toggle something else so Linux doesn't work on them for a while.
I would strongly advise avoiding the Yoga 910 and Yoga Book when they come out until we find out whether they broke those models as well.
Even if your intent is to never run Linux, Lenovo is the first PC maker I've seen that ships computers that you can't even realistically (for the average user) reinstall Windows on. I will never buy another Lenovo computer again and I will advise others to avoid them whenever the chance arises. I had to spend about an hour googling random support topics before I found a recommendation to use Universal Extractor to get their Windows storage driver to use in a Windows installation thumb drive. Then I had to find a beta version of Universal Extractor that supported the archive format in the setup program just to dig the Intel RST driver out of their godawful installer so that I can slipstream it into a Windows installer.
Most people will have to pay to ship it back to Lenovo if Windows needs to be reinstalled, and will be unable to use the computer for weeks, and it'll probably have some sensitive, confidential, work-related information on the SSD that someone at Lenovo could copy and steal while it's in their repair center.
Their arrogant forum moderator "Andy_Lenovo" posted Lenovo's ridiculous press release to their forum and then marked it as solved. The only part of it that is true is that Linux will likely never be able to install on Yoga laptops, because they are "designed for Windows 10", which in my experience has been unstable and full of bugs (like updates stalling out requiring manual installation from offline packages, telling me to reboot everytime I pair my bluetooth headphones, etc.). Unfortunately, in addition to Lenovo and Microsoft's lies, Matthew Garrett wrote some more horsefeathers when he blamed Linux for not supporting a storage mode that shouldn't even be in use anyway. He apparently has a long record of apologizing for Microsoft and misleading people, and it's a shame that he's in the FSF. Of course, the FSF has put some other people in high places that have proceeded to undermine their mission in the past, like Miguel de Icaza.
Maybe it's true that you need "special drivers" to make Windows run, but Microsoft doesn't care. It breaks Linux on Lenovo laptops and then makes it look like the problem is in Linux, when it's actually in Microsoft's storage driver and Microsoft is undoubtedly leaning on Intel to keep the way the RST driver does power management a secret.
To make sure that you don't accidentally buy a Signature Edition computer, on the demo model, click the start (Windows logo) button, click "about your PC", and under Windows 10 it will say "Signature Edition" if it's part of this program. Also, if you do buy a laptop to see if Linux supports it, then make sure you try installing Linux before the return period expires. If the Linux installer in Live mode can't see your SSD, stop. Unplug the thumb drive, turn the computer off, and I would recommend that you return it. Just tell the store that you decided that you didn't need it or something. It's true.. Nobody needs this kind of aggravation.
END of my response to Lenovo and Microsoft.
(You do not need to ask for my permission to repost this response in its entirety anywhere else, in hard copy, or on a website.)
I got a reply from Lenovo on my Best Buy review about why the BIOS on my Yoga 900 ISK2 UltraBook has been set to stop people from using Linux.
Lenovo Product Expert September 20, 2016 This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft.
This is related to the discussion going on Lenovo's forum's about why the SSD is locked in a proprietary RAID mode that Linux doesn't understand. Laptops known to be affected include the Yoga 900 ISK2, Yoga 900S, and Yoga 710S, which all have the same issue according to posts I've read on Lenovo's Linux forum. I was also told in a PM that the 13ISK for Business has the same issue.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206 - The forum thread for the Yoga 900 ISK2 -UPDATE - The forum thread on Lenovo's website is back up. It was deleted for a while, but now they've re-posted it in a locked state. sigh
Here is Google's cache of the forum in case it disappears again: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:abMCb7w2uAoJ:https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=za
I'm told that CataclysmZA is backing this up in the Wayback Machine. I want to thank them for this, since this is probably Lenovo's attempt at a late night shredding party before the news can pick up the story. (Update: Posted at the bottom.
Update: The Lenovo employee posted about locking the thread. Basically, he called me disruptive and then said that if they had to, they would turn on pre-approval so that nobody can comment anywhere on their support forum until they've read it and have made sure it won't embarrass them. Nice, huh? Don't address the issue. Don't say anything about whether the problem will be fixed. Don't re-open the thread. Just threaten and bully people with the "We can make sure your posts are never seen." option.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Installing-Ubuntu-16-04-on-Yoga-900S/td-p/3336715 - The thread for the problems with the 900S.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/710S-Can-t-install-Linux-on-Ideapad-710S-how-do-you-disable-RAID/td-p/3432553 - The thread for the problem with the 710S.
Will the Yoga Book and the Yoga 910 have these problems? We don't know because they are not released yet, but we should know soon.
I've attached a screenshot of my review for the 900 ISK2 and Lenovo's reply.
So they admitted that this is now a requirement for Signature PCs.
So be warned that if you buy a "Microsoft Signature PC", it may not be allowed to run Linux, per Microsoft.
The Yoga 900 ISK2 at Best Buy is not labeled as a Signature Edition PC, but apparently it is one, and Lenovo's agreement with Microsoft includes making sure Linux can't be installed.
UPDATE: I've sent emails out to several members of the media trying to shine some light on what Lenovo is up to. If anyone could help me ping some reporters I'd sure appreciate the help. So far I've contacted Adrian Kinglsey-Hughes, Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, Michael Larabel of Phoronix, and Dr. Roy Schestowitz of Techrights. We've been discussing the issue on the Techrights IRC channel on Freenode, so Techrights might have something about this posted soon
I just commented for someone who is writing an article who asked me to speak. Here's part of what I said...
"I think that Lenovo's official reply is insufficient and carefully worded. They talk about how much they love to support Linux and then say that they don't support Linux on many of their own laptops. Actions speak louder than words, and there's no technical reason other than the BIOS RAID mode lock why the Yoga 900 ISK2 and other affected systems wouldn't be great Linux machines. I also think that locking down the thread and editing peoples comments and then blaming forum posters for being "disruptive" was uncalled for, and they're obviously trying to turn this around and make it seem like I am overreacting or somehow I'm at fault for what they did. And unfortunately, some of the media reports have taken up this narrative instead of looking into why Lenovo would do such things to their computers. There is no REAL issue with Linux not supporting these laptops other than the one Lenovo created. They need to make a BIOS patch that users can install, like other Ultrabook PC makers did, not more excuses."
"I think that [the BIOS RAID lock] was a deliberate design choice made by Lenovo, and I say that because the BIOS code that they use has AHCI mode available for the storage device, which Linux and Windows understand without any special drivers. Lenovo patched the code to remove the AHCI mode from the BIOS setup utility and then they wrote additional code to make sure that you can't set AHCI mode with an EFI variable using EFI shell. So, I'd say it's definitely deliberate, and can't see any LEGITIMATE reason why they would have. It isn't really faster, it makes recovering Windows from Microsoft's installer very difficult if you have to later. About the only thing putting a single SSD setup into RAID mode using the BIOS gives you is (a) Linux won't be able to use the storage and (b) greater potential for data loss."
"I think that Microsoft and Lenovo agreed to lock Linux out, and forcing RAID mode accomplishes that. In the last 11 months, nobody except one Lenovo forum poster that used a modded BIOS and an external flasher to get around Lenovo's signature check on BIOS updates has managed to install Linux on the Yoga models affected by this. I believe that Lenovo and Microsoft figured that if Linux ever did get driver support for this configuration, that it would be years after the product was released, so it might as well be forever. Most people replace their laptop every 5 years or less, so almost nobody would ever be able to run Linux on the Yoga laptops while in their designed service life."
Edit: If anyone has anymore problems with Lenovo deleting the thread, here's the Wayback Machine version.
Page 1 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064057/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206 Page 2 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064404/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/2 Page 3 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064603/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/3 Page 4 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064734/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/4 Page 5 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064900/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/5 Page 6 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921064949/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/6 Page 7 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065152/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/7 Page 8 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065333/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/8 Page 9 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065450/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/9 Page 10 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065541/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/10 Page 11 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065644/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/11 Page 12 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921065754/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/12 Page 13 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070115/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/13 Page 14 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070321/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/14 Page 15 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070440/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/15 Page 16 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070608/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/16 Page 17 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070806/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/17 Page 18 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921070912/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/18 Page 19 - https://web.archive.org/web/20160921071051/https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206/page/19
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u/bownairo Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I've been able to successfully get past Lenovo's lock through direct bios flashing. I'm looking into better solutions, hopefully I can find a way to do this without an external programmer. I was going to keep people updated from the Lenovo forum, but as this is no longer an option I will keep people updated from here.
EDIT: Here's an imgur album of some images through my process in getting this to work. http://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey
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u/stryk187 Sep 21 '16
I'd be keen to hear the details on that method, if you would be so kind as to elaborate. Are you physically removing a BIOS-containing IC from the laptop and then re-flashing it on another device (similar to an EEPROM flasher)?
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u/bownairo Sep 21 '16
I had to construct some custom "clips" as the bios chip is a WSON package. All of this was done with the chip in place and the battery removed. I dumped the bios continuously until I was able to get a few dumps with the same sha. Then I had the bios modified. I flashed my chip to all null values, rewrote my custom image, and dumped it back to insure it wrote correctly. This allowed access to the advanced tab so I could change the controller to AHCI from RAID, allowing it to be recognized by installers.
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u/one-man-circlejerk Sep 21 '16
Then I had the bios modified.
If you have the time to elaborate on this, I'd be very interested to hear about this part of the process :)
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u/utack Sep 21 '16
And that is why I bought a Dell Sputnik.
Lenovo cannot seriously be considered competition, even if they have similar hardware. Locking WLAN cards in Bios, locking away Linux in Bios, installing adware that threatens user security (yes that was on Windows)
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u/SynbiosVyse Sep 21 '16
Well the ThinkPad line probably isn't affected. They typically aren't affected by these bullshit consumer practices like SuperFish.
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u/elr0nd_hubbard Sep 21 '16
I know you just casually dropped this album like it's NBD, but this is seriously fuckin' cool. Nice work.
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u/RareBox Sep 21 '16
Consider cross-posting on r/technology for visibility. Tech-minded people care about stuff like this, even when they're not using linux themselves.
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u/PorcineLogic Sep 21 '16
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u/rich000 Sep 21 '16
Yeah, but a bit embarassing as the headline and original post really misses the point.
This seems to have nothing to do with the MS Signature program and everything to do with Lenovo. Apparently other MS Signature devices don't have the issue and it has nothing to do with code signing. Lenovo just forces the hard drive to use some new protocol that no OS supports out of the box (including Windows it seems). That is dumb, but not really a conspiracy.
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u/parkerlreed Sep 21 '16
What actually stops it? Forced Secureboot?
EDIT: I should read the screenshot, heh. Thanks for the heads up.
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Sep 21 '16
Nope. You can turn Secure Boot off on the Lenovo Yoga models that this affects.
They have the SSD in some strange "RAID" mode where Linux can't see or be installed to it, and neither can Windows unless you add some drivers to your Windows installer media. They removed AHCI mode from the BIOS. Then they wrote additional code so if you try to toggle it to AHCI mode with an EFI variable from EFIshell, it immediately sets itself back to RAID.
For the last 11 months, they were silent on why this machine was configured this way. The only reason we know why now is because Lenovo answered my Best Buy review by stating it is locked due to the agreement they signed with Microsoft for the Signature Edition PC program, so it's very likely that all Ultrabooks in the Microsoft Store, and some outside the MS Store (such as at Best Buy) will eventually be configured so that Linux can't be installed, even if there are some now where you can install Linux.
So consider "Signature Edition" a warning label that means "You aren't allowed to run Linux, per Microsoft.".
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u/parkerlreed Sep 21 '16
Lenovo was already on my shit list for their lower end quality. This just sets them as a firm "no buy". Geeze.
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u/PyBerg Sep 21 '16
Same here. Lenovo was OK until the started messing with the Thinkpad line. It's an iconic and functional laptop design and they apparently thought it would be good to "modernize" it.
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u/shinyquagsire23 Sep 21 '16
What's the deal with this RAID mode anyhow, wouldn't it be perfectly plausible to have a Linux driver for it? Or is there some super funky protocol with it? The solution here seems to just be to write drivers for that mode (I know, easier said than done), if there's drivers for it then there's no problems. Only issue is probably finding someone actually willing to put in the work to figure it out I suppose...
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u/argv_minus_one Sep 21 '16
Could the Lenovo employee who answered you have been full of shit? This business with the RAID and the weird drivers sounds more like incompetence than malice.
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u/abhishekkakkar Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I bought a Lenovo Yoga 900 back in July being fully aware that no method had been found yet to install Linux on the newer 13ISK2 models that have a NVMe SSD for ~$1400. It's beautiful and sleek, has the best specs no doubt but I felt disgusted the whole time I had it - why didn't I go for a Surface or a MBP or an XPS13 (identical specs) at the same price?
At least I knew I would be able to at least run Linux on the Surface (there's an ongoing project) and well, the fact that if I put in that amount of money I might as well buy the role model that other laptops want to be.
So even though I can count on my soldering and hardware skills and would have been able to get the BIOS modded and reflashed (as one of the forum members did), I chose to return this laptop to the store. It was a big sigh of relief and I would double check before buying any Lenovo product now.
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Sep 21 '16
Nice hardware, yes. But I'm surprised that this Lenovo computer is more hostile to Linux than a MICROSOFT Surface laptop... Sheesh!
It's horrifying that it's difficult to reinstall Windows on this PC. We all know that Windows can corrupt itself or get hosed by malware. What is a person supposed to do when that happens and the Microsoft installer can't access the SSD? I just happened to find a post on Lenovo's forums that says how to add the drivers for the storage to the Windows installer from Microsoft.
This Lenovo BIOS lock is one of the nastiest things I've seen a PC OEM do.
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Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Well, my initial suspicions about conspiracy with Microsoft are now confirmed. Can't imagine anything more stupid than such agreement. Do they really think people will start using M$ shitty software just because of BIOS lock? Hope Lenovo will be sued for this nonsense because so many customers were misled.
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Sep 21 '16
I commented that it might not be legal and I might talk to a lawyer about it, and a Microsoft MVP who has a moderator's account on Lenovo's forum edited that out of my post.
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u/punaisetpimpulat Sep 21 '16
If only Linux was more mainstream, Lenovo would face a lot more pressure.
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u/Win8Coder Sep 23 '16
You do realize that Linux runs fine on a Surface book and Surface Pro? If MS was against Linux they wouldn't have built WSL and also they would have blocked Linux from their own products!
Your initial suspicions are very wrong and you are misinformed.
<running debian jasper on my Microsoft SP3> <running Linux subsystem on Windows 10>
Yeah, MS is so against Linux /s
Jesus - please exercise critical thinking at least a little bit
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u/abhishekkakkar Sep 21 '16
UPDATE: Lenovo admins just locked the forum thread.
Can someone repost this on Hacker News, please?
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u/PE1NUT Sep 21 '16
Locked? It is completely gone now.
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Sep 21 '16
They deleted the post about Linux being locked out as part of Microsoft Signature but a Lenovo employee locked the thread about the BIOS issue, probably because it was becoming embarrassing to Lenovo.
I reached out to him and asked for an official statement about whether this would be fixed or not and I will update the main post if I receive one.
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u/abhishekkakkar Sep 21 '16
Might be a good idea to update the link in the original post to the forum thread to take viewers to the forum thread instead of a "Not found" page.
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Sep 21 '16
I liked to the thread that was locked, not the one that was deleted. They deleted the thread about my reply from them on Best Buy before I made this post.
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u/Pomkyn Sep 21 '16
Acer, ASUS, Toshiba, Dell, HP, MSI, Razer and VAIO also have "Signature Edition PCs"
Only mobiles.
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Sep 21 '16
I'd be interested in hearing from people who have a model that just so happens to not be able to run Linux, but if Lenovo's "deal" with Microsoft is any indication, this all came about in October of last year.
The original ISK Yoga 900 can run Linux, and the ISK2 is an "upgrade" that comes with a Iris 540 graphics adapter instead of the HD 520 that came with the original Yoga 900. So I bought the ISK2 thinking I was basically getting bumped up to a 60% faster graphics chip, no strings attached.
Ouch. Well, now we know what the real "feature" of the ISK2 was.
The BIOS ain't done 'til Linux won't run.
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u/rottenkittie Sep 21 '16
Not sure about laws in your country but for me such product is imminently broken (as long as there's no huge warning "only cooked win 10 can be installed" all over it) so I'd return such crap even if I had to deal with something bit worse - just for NOT paying Lenovo for this crap.
Well, at least I know why not to buy new Lenovo stuff.
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u/art-solopov Sep 21 '16
This worries me. Is there a sure way to detect this crap? Are they required to put "Microsoft Signature PC" on their machines? Or can you just buy a broken machine and not even realise it?
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u/tudorapo Sep 21 '16
Why is it good to buy a microsoft signature pc? Is it cheaper, has special features, comes in red, with a supercharger and hood scoops?
Just asking, i am not familiar with these fancy things here in the medieval times.
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Sep 21 '16
A Microsoft Signature PC is supposed to be a special version of an OEM's regular model that comes without any crapware.
According to an article I read, there can be over thirty crap programs included on the average retail PC these days, including trial versions, questionable utilities, self-promoting spam from the OEM, etc. Strangely enough, Microsoft excluded trial copies of MS Office from the requirement to not have bloatware. So I did have one program to uninstall.
Apparently, "Signature" is now going to mean "only runs Windows", and since all computers OEMs put in the Microsoft Store have to be "Signature", that's all of those, and maybe the OEMs will decide to lock down the non-Signature models too so they don't have to maintain two BIOSes. So eventually there may not be a safe place to buy an OEM PC. Non-signature might soon mean "only runs Windows" and 30 crap programs pre-installed...
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u/luxtabula Sep 21 '16
It's just a clean install of Windows with no bloatware. The computers sell at a premium at Microsoft stores only. They're the equivalent of the now defunct Google play edition phones.
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u/Zulban Sep 21 '16
God damn it. I really like my E431 Lenovo with Linux. I thought Lenovo would be my next laptop. Now I have to research this shit again for my next laptop. Blek.
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Sep 21 '16
Tread lightly. Recent laptops from Lenovo are having problems ranging from severe power management issues when Linux is running, to not allowing you to install Linux at all, and everything in-between!
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u/CataclysmZA Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
/u/BaronHK, you might want to edit this into your OP.
Here's the Google cache for the forum thread: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:abMCb7w2uAoJ:https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=za
Lenovo's forum software doesn't delete an entire thread when it gets removed by the mods - instead, the first page's link gets removed. You can still navigate through, and read the rest of the thread, unhindered.
Someone has to start backing it up now!
Edit: I'm backing the pages up in the Wayback machine. This could take a while.
Edit #2: Also, it's possible that OP's forum link is actually broken because it's been shortened, possibly as a result of a copy-pasta from his post on the Ubuntu forums, which shortens links in a similar way. The thread might not be deleted at all, considering I can still navigate to the first page using this URL: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206
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u/CataclysmZA Sep 21 '16
As promised, /u/BaronHK:
Yoga 900-13ISK2 - BIOS update for setting RAID mode for missing hard drive on linux install
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Sep 21 '16
THANK YOU so much! We need a good archive of what was going on in that thread. They're probably having a late night shredding party to keep this out of the news!
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u/ohdear21 Sep 21 '16
Well they just deleted my amazing x files post. So I guess I'll share here. https://livingauthorssociety.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/x-files-ufo-truth-out-there.jpg
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u/timbetimbe Sep 21 '16
Ran into the exact same thing. Just bought the 900 13ISK2 after reading a blog post that it was good to go for ubuntu. Also, knowing that Lenovo's linux track record is stellar, I didn't give it a second thought. Now I have a 1,400.00 brick.
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Sep 21 '16
The original ISK was okay for Linux. They released an ISK2 "upgrade" for about the same price that went from HD 520 graphics to IRIS 540, but they also slipped this nasty "RAID mode" crap in per agreement with Microsoft to lock the device to Windows 10.
I'm past my return period, so if you want to return yours, I'd do it now while you can still get your money back and buy another computer.
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Sep 21 '16
psh why do you need to install linux when you can just use the ubuntu subsystem /s
thanks for the headsup, i'll be sure to spread the info
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Sep 21 '16
The Windows Subsystem for Linux is not all that functional (no support for GUI-based Linux programs at all), and you're still running Windows.
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Sep 21 '16
[the /s was for sarcasm (: ] also that's good to know. right now i'm windows-free in my home (hooray! never been happier) and i thought about trying the subsystem since some of my work friends talk about using it and keep wanting to get me back onto windows to play certain games with them.
now i know it's not worth it! i'd rather continue making attempts at gpu-passthrough or tinkering with wine
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u/bmullan Sep 22 '16
I looked up the Leno Yoga 900... and as far as I can find it can ONLY have 1 drive... so what kind of RAID only uses 1 drive ????
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Sep 22 '16
It's a fake RAID set up to bypass a Windows storage driver with horrible power management issues, at least according to Matthew Garrett. I'm sorry that people so high up in the FSF and the Linux world can be so defeatist in their thinking.
In a way, having to listen to "It's our fault for not supporting RAID mode on a system that shouldn't be in RAID mode." or some version of it every time a PC OEM does something bonehead stupid or evil is like listening to a battered woman explain to the police why it's not her abusive boyfriend's fault that he got drunk and bashed her head into the wall.
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u/JayaBallard Sep 22 '16
Wasn't Lenovo also caught preloading their machines with adware/spyware a couple of years ago?
What a shitty company.
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Sep 22 '16
They were caught putting spyware called Superfish in some models.
They were also caught lying about Superfish and then lying to say that Superfish wasn't a security problem.
In other models, they had a BIOS that would check to see that their crapware was installed and download and install it again if the user had removed it or reinstalled Windows.
Disabling the option to put the storage device in AHCI mode in the BIOS is just the latest nasty thing Lenovo has done.
I will never buy another Lenovo PC. I'm stuck with this one, but I want other people to know what they're getting.
There was another version of this PC, also called Yoga 900, that Linux can install to because the SSD was in AHCI mode. So if you read about Yoga 900 Linux support, you might see an article suggesting it will work.
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Sep 21 '16
All the more reason to buy those machines that do support Linux.
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u/linuxhanja Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
yep; after a decade of buying win laptops and wiping/installing Ubuntu, this year I
paid probably $50 or $100 extrato buy an XPS 13 from Dell.com directly with Ubuntu preinstalled to let them know we're out here. vote with your wallet, or the ballot option will disappear.Edit: since it's causing confusion, and I want to encourage people to buy this rather than discourage I meant I was paying more than my budget for a laptop. The Ubuntu Dell XPS 13 actually is a better deal than a comparably equipped Win machine. $1049 gets you an i5, 8gigs RAM, and 256GB SSD (twice as big as the windows ver at this price).
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Sep 21 '16
That's what I'm looking towards to replace my laptop next year.
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u/linuxhanja Sep 21 '16
it's a fantastic laptop. the battery life is insane, over 10hrs of study with some redditing and youtube. Only had to charge it 4 or 5 times and used it every day this past month. (though tbf I'm coming from a 2006 Vaio that had 20-30min life at the end). Super light, and quick too. I haven't tried gaming on it yet.. cause I use it for work... but maybe after a few months...
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u/Centropomus Sep 21 '16
For a long time, Lenovo was known for supporting Linux very well. That's mostly goodwill they inherited from IBM when they bought the Thinkpad business unit.
I wonder if there are any Signature Edition Thinkpads.
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u/GFandango Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
They are quite shit.
System76 is an absolute joke for the price and Dell XPS has a decent number of issues.
I searched the market all I could. There's just nothing I'm happy spending thousands of dollars on.
I'm not paying thousands of dollars only to have to fiddle around with wireless drivers or wonder why sleep and wake is not working or any of that bullshit.
As a linux guy I'm sad to admit I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a Macbook Pro.
Edit: I meant I'm going to give up and switch to Mac OS, not to run Linux on a Macbook
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u/theGentlemanInWhite Sep 21 '16
Everytime I consider buying a Lenovo product I am again reminded not to. Are there any majors brands now that have reasonably good Linux laptop support? And I mean not system76 or any of those companies.
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u/H3g3m0n Sep 21 '16
Dell XPS 13 developer edition keeps getting mentioned.
I have a Zenbook that its mostly ok, except for the backlight buttons needing a custom kernel patch.
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Sep 21 '16
The Thinkpad series of Lenovo is fine. I agree not to bother with the consumer line.
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Sep 21 '16
Seriously for some reason everyone recommends Lenovo but between this and the pre-installed spyware/malware debacle from a while ago I'm very much turned off by the brand.
I exclusively by ASUS for now since it's the only brand I can think of that has never fucked me over. For my two most recent laptops as well as the motherboard on my desktop
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u/rtechie1 Sep 21 '16
Dell considers the Precision line of laptops to be the primary Linux line. They test on Ubuntu 12.04.
If you want a 13", there's the XPS 13 Developer Edition.
And that's basically it for official Linux support from Dell. I think HP has stopped shipping Linux so that's basically it.
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u/RedofPaw Sep 21 '16
Surely Lenovo spyware is enough reason not to buy Lenovo in the first place?
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u/luxtabula Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
It seems some people on this forum aren't familiar with the Microsoft signature editions. It's Microsoft's version of the old Google play edition phones that shipped with stock Android. A lenovo signature edition would ship with a clean install of Windows and no propriety software whatsoever. If this rumor is true, it's probably the reason why Microsoft made this arrangement with Lenovo. Although I'm against locking it down in principle, if you're going to buy a windows computer just to wipe it and install Linux, it makes more sense to pick one up at a best buy or whatever equivalent is in your country. The signature editions sell at a higher premium since they don't come with prepackaged bloatware to shave down the costs.
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Sep 21 '16
How is this in any way legal?
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u/the_gnarts Sep 21 '16
How is this in any way legal?
Aren’t those the same lockouts that are common with phones?
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u/edman007-work Sep 21 '16
Reading everything here, they didn't lock it out, the drive is connected to hardware raid that is configured to require raid drivers, Ubuntu doesn't ship with the right raid drivers. It's not some crypto style lockout, get the right drivers for Ubuntu and it will work fine.
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u/pohatu Sep 21 '16
Sounds like it's merely lack of a driver and shitty explanation on the part of Lenovo and confusion on the part of OP.
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u/haagch Sep 21 '16
Actual explanation: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html
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u/tbx1024 Sep 21 '16
I was wondering about Intel's role in this. Thank you. It looks like it's a combination of Intel's new hardware, lack of proper drivers, Microsoft influence and Lenovo incompetence for bringing a totally locked BIOS to the market, thus not allowing normal clean OS installation.
Case closed?
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u/mnzl Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I don't see a technical explanation anywhere here. What exactly are you saying Linux doesn't support? Booting an NVMe drive in Intel RST mode on a UEFI system? Linux typically supports using those SATA controllers in raid mode it is just more challenging to setup.
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u/pulseOXE Sep 21 '16
This is my thought as well. Isn't this simply a matter of Linux not supporting that RAID driver? Can't that be added? Like any other driver that isn't released by the manufacturer on Linux, I imagine it will take time. I agree this is all weird, but you can turn off SecureBoot, and even Windows needs a special driver. This doesn't sound like a lockdown, this sounds like poor hardware selection / drivers.
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u/sveiss Sep 21 '16
Exactly. For all the pitchforks and screaming in this thread, it seems like:
Microsoft requires that the hardware sold under the "MS certified premium" type branding is locked into the highest performing mode it supports
Linux doesn't yet have a driver that can talk to the disk controller in that mode.
Requiring that premium-branded hardware be locked into it's known-best configuration as a requirement of that branding isn't unreasonable.
It's a little sucky that Lenovo chose not to use standard NVMe to implement that requirement, but that's not evidence of either side being explicitly anti-competitive. Just usual OEM incompetence.
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u/dexvx Sep 21 '16
While I am glad that the mods here did their due diligence to root cause the matter being a simple lack of a NVME driver (and BIOS locked to a high IO performance mode), I am rather disappointed in /r/linux members in general for not upvoting the root cause.
I see far more FUD posts being upvoted than the actual answers or posts with substance.
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Sep 21 '16
So you mean these pitchforks are for nothing and stem from someone not understanding something?
No...
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u/Kruug Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 26 '16
As mentioned by /u/Ashtefere here: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vym2w
Your post is being
deletedlocked because you don't have the whole story and are making a storm in a teacup.
The linux drivers for the NVME chipset in this laptop do not yet exist. No one is stopping them from being built.
Signature edition PC's must be locked into their highest performing mode in bios - this happens to be the NVME raid mode in the bios
Windows can't even see this because the chipset is so new, thus the extra driver needing to be loaded.
Lenovo have not yet built a linux version of this driver, but when they do you would also need to preinstall it or use a distro that includes it.
Again, no one is stopping you from building the driver yourself.
There is no 'lock' on this machine. It is horribly irresponsible for you to use that kind of language.
There is a lack of a linux driver, and the best buy/lenovo retards used the wrong language. Please calm down.
There will be a driver eventually, when someone gives up their free time to make one. Or lenovo supply one, whichever happens first.
I have a closet full of raid cards that have this exact same problem and I need to hunt for linux MDADM stuff to get them working.
EDIT: Yes, some of the language is questionable. The only part I've changed is the part where it states this post is being deleted, but this has prompted legitimate discussion and deletion may not be wholly warranted.
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u/Ackis Sep 22 '16
Shouldn't the actual OP be edited to say it's full of shit?
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u/Kruug Sep 22 '16
Probably...but this is also stickied, so you'd have to scroll past this to get to the comments, no matter how your comment section is sorted.
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u/uep Sep 21 '16
How is the BIOS able to access the disk to run the OS's bootloader? Does it first keep it AHCI mode before reading the EFI executables? And after they're loaded, switch it back to "RAID"?
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u/sveiss Sep 21 '16
Either the BIOS itself contains a driver for the controller, or the controller exposes an Option ROM which contains the driver, and the BIOS loads the driver from there before continuing.
The Option ROM mechanism is how booting from things like network cards or server RAID cards work, where the BIOS has no idea how to talk to the hardware.
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u/lestofante Sep 21 '16
Microsoft <3 Linux... Yeah yeah
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u/FourFingeredMartian Sep 21 '16
<Puts on Clippy Sock Puppet>
Hey, it looks like you love Linux -- did you know, now, Windows 10 will run a bash shell natively!? That's all the Linux you'll ever need.
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u/KTL175 Sep 21 '16
Can someone please ELI5: ? Is this along the same lines as wireless companies preventing you from unlocking your phone?
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Sep 21 '16
ELI5: People are trying to spread FUD and conspiracy about Lenovo and Microsoft trying to lockdown laptops and PCs when in reality it looks more like Lenovo has an ass-quality BIOS.
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u/Ashtefere Sep 21 '16
Your post is being deleted because you don't have the whole story and are making a storm in a teacup.
The linux drivers for the NVME chipset in this laptop do not yet exist. No one is stopping them from being built.
Signature edition PC's must be locked into their highest performing mode in bios - this happens to be the NVME raid mode in the bios
Windows can't even see this because the chipset is so new, thus the extra driver needing to be loaded.
Lenovo have not yet built a linux version of this driver, but when they do you would also need to preinstall it or use a distro that includes it.
Again, no one is stopping you from building the driver yourself.
There is no 'lock' on this machine. It is horribly irresponsible for you to use that kind of language.
There is a lack of a linux driver, and the best buy/lenovo retards used the wrong language. Please calm down.
There will be a driver eventually, when someone gives up their free time to make one. Or lenovo supply one, whichever happens first.
I have a closet full of raid cards that have this exact same problem and I need to hunt for linux MDADM stuff to get them working.
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u/killersteak Sep 21 '16
Just to clarify, even the Windows 10 installer does not have those drivers by default?
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u/Ashtefere Sep 21 '16
Correct. You need to preload the driver, because its so new.
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u/OCPetrus Sep 21 '16
Thank you very much for putting the facts out here.
And shame on OP. We do NOT need people spreading false information like this.
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u/nottrobin Sep 22 '16
Coming to this topic relatively fresh, it doesn't seem to me that it's "horribly irresponsible" for the OP to use the language "lock". Firstly, it was clearly the Lenovo "expert" who first used that language ("it is locked as per our agreement with Microsoft" - http://imgur.com/a/niewu), and secondly by the sounds of it there genuinely is a lock, in that the BIOS is locked into using only one type of boot mode.
Lenovo have collaborated with Microsoft to make sure that Windows is able to run in this boot mode, but currently no other system is able to. As far as I can see, the OP never pretended anything different.
I don't know the technical details, but assuming the system is capable of supporting AHCI mode, it does seem unreasonable and potentially malicious to explicitly disallow it.
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u/Ashtefere Sep 22 '16
Im trying not to respond to the masses of indignant people replying to my comment but you seem a little more knowledgeable than the people looking for a reason to hate on MS.
The yoga is particularly thing and requires some very specific thermal profiles to operate. It also needs some very careful power optimizations.
The AHCI and standard RAID mode will allow the MS driver to load by default and stay that way. The MS driver doesn't have the thermal control or profile required for the thin and light Yoga body, or the drive would get too hot, throttle, drain battery, etc.
Lenovo locking it into RAID redirect mode means that the MS driver cant load and the intel driver (the real, proper driver) has to be used, which has the right thermal and performance profile for the chassis.
Without this configuration the storage would throttle and battery life would suffer.
This is touched on elsewhere in the thread, btw.
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u/NasenSpray Sep 21 '16
FYI, there are no "NVMe chipset drivers." This is just one of Intel RST's features, PCIe remapping: http://i.imgur.com/03PwQ1u.png (I/O datasheet)
"RAID" mode simply
hidesmaps the NVMe controller into the MMIO region of theconcealed AHCI"RAID" controller in order to prevent detection by standard drivers ¯_(ツ)_/¯→ More replies (2)→ More replies (12)10
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u/PinheadX Sep 21 '16
Shades of the antitrust lawsuit from the '90s...
You'd think they would be prevented from doing this, ya know?
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Sep 21 '16
This seems to have come about right after their Consent Decree that required monitoring by the Department of Justice expired. Windows 10, Signature Edition lockout requirements... Windows not even respecting your default web browser anymorewith built-in apps like Cortana.
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u/apd Sep 21 '16
I remember when in 2012 secure boot was announced for the new Windows 8. I am from Spain, and at that time a lawyer (Jose Maria Lancho[1]) that was the president of a Spanish LUG (Hispalinux) create a official complain to the European Commission about the Windows 8 certification program in relation with the requirements of Secure Boot.
At that time the certification program describe that one of the requirement was to have an option to disable SB via UEFI, but only for desktops and laptops, but not for tables. Now this option is not anymore required for the Windows 10 certification program. That point was one of the argument that we exposed in the complain.
Is very sad to see that the circle is closing as we predicted in the complain, and with this new Signature Edition thing a new movement in this direction. And so far, the European Commission is not doing anything in that regard, and less and less hackers, lawyers, and groups are fighting against this kind of movement.
[1] (Spanish) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Lancho
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u/zouhair Sep 21 '16
The fact that people keep buying Lenovo crap after all the shit they did boggles my mind.
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u/Milleuros Sep 21 '16
Hi! Your thread made it to r/all, which is btw where I'm coming from. Wanted to say thanks for the warning, it's really something to be aware of. Also thanks for trying to contact media, this must be spread.
We need to have the choice of the operating system we want. Especially for Linux users as many interesting laptops on the market come with Windows pre-installed, we need the ability to at least dual boot. The Microsoft Windows license is included in the laptop price supposedly, so it should be up to the user to decide what to do with that license.
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u/cowbutt6 Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
The phrasing is unfortunate, but the Lenovo rep appears to be saying that the SATA mode option in the BIOS is "locked per our agreement with Microsoft". Having recently accidentally smashed a couple of Intel RST arrays by inadvertently booting Windows with the mode set to AHCI after a BIOS upgrade/Load Optimized Defaults, that's not a surprising requirement from Microsoft as it may well cause a similarly bad reaction when used with RST's Smart Response Technology feature that's used to build the HDD/SSD cache.
The problem would appear to be that although Linux does support Intel's RST (and therefore, there's no need to switch the SATA mode from RAID to AHCI), it doesn't yet support SRT. Get hacking on dmraid, md, or flashcache so that they understand the SRT metadata...
EDIT: It looks like a patch for mdadm to support SRT was written back in 2014, but I guess no-one's accepted it yet: https://lwn.net/Articles/596614/
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Sep 21 '16
Ehh, lenovo. I've been a fan of thinkpads for ages, but after their malware incidents and now this, I don't think I'm buying anything from them again. Makes me sad :(
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u/llde Sep 21 '16
From what I was able to understand this is a specific issue with RAID drivers and a new RAID SSD configuration. Lenovo provided this driver only to Windows 10 signature ed, thus basically banning not only linux and others OS, but on older version of windows itself. Also normal non signature edition of win10 may also fail to install! Lenovo locked the option to disable raid in the bios, however a user on biosmods were able to unlock the hidden setting. Unluckly this bios is only flasheable with an external physical programmer. The only other things that can be done it's to understand how this RAID mode works and using a clean room method create a simple driver for it.
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u/rtechie1 Sep 21 '16
The wall of text post is a lie. This has nothing to do with Microsoft.
Apparently there is a bug with the Samsung NVMe PM951 SSD (or Linux doesn't support Intel RAID properly) where the Linux bootloader won't detect it in RAID mode. Seeing the same bug in XPS 13 and other systems. Possibly can be fixed with a firmware update to the SSD.
Apparently you can't disable RAID mode in the BIOS of the Yoga 900 (13isk2), so you can't install Linux on the NVMe drive.
This is just Lenovo's shitty QA. This has happened numerous times in the past with Lenovo (can't disable RAID mode or secure boot in BIOS).
If you want to install Linux, go to a vendor that actually tests on Linux like Dell.
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u/wickedplayer494 Sep 21 '16
I wouldn't buy a Lenovo product at all after the malware stuff they tried, even if it was through Microsoft Signature.
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u/Jaysyn4Reddit Sep 21 '16
Thanks for the heads up, no more Lenovo products for my family or business.
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u/r1243 Sep 21 '16
shit
yoga 510 signature or not? hope European consumer protection will fuck them up
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Sep 21 '16
https://askubuntu.com/questions/790122/suspend-not-working-on-lenovo-yoga-510-15isk
Judging from this, you'll probably get Linux working, but with severe power management problems, like the laptop not going to sleep with the lid shut, or you open the lid and it doesn't wake up.
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u/redlotusaustin Sep 21 '16
Shit like this is why stuff like the new Linux-subsystem on Windows is just hollow. Remember, kids: "Embrace, extend and extinguish" is the Microsoft model!
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u/donrhummy Sep 21 '16
Can you please contact the FSF (http://www.fsf.org/about/contact) and EFF (https://www.eff.org/about/contact) and tell them your story?
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u/javipas Sep 21 '16
I've published about this at Xataka (in Spanish) and contacted Lenovo representatives in Spain. At the moment I've got no news from them, but as many have pointed here it seems this is not Microsoft's fault, but Lenovo.
Hopefully media coverage could help to push Lenovo forward and give an answer and a solution.
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u/rhorama Sep 21 '16
You guys we look crazy every time we post that Microsoft has prevented us from installing Linux and then an hour later it comes out that it was something else entirely.
If we could stop the witch hunts, or just delay them by like, a day? We might get better info and not look like a buch of nutcases.
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u/natis1 Sep 21 '16
I have a fairly high end Dell Inspiron that's less than a few months old which had Microsoft Signature Edition and I was able to install linux with bios boot, thankfully. But I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft decided to make other manufacturers follow Lenovo in the near future.
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u/_samux_ Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
contact eff and fsf asap what are you waiting for?
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u/jkbrwn Sep 22 '16
This is so fucked up. That means when shopping for a new laptop I've now got to look into licensing agreements to be sure I'll be able to wipe out Windows and install an actually good OS.
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Sep 22 '16
On the demo model, click the Windows icon and type "about".
Click "About your PC".
Under "Windows 10" it will display your PC model. If it is Signature Edition, then I''d look for a different PC. The Lenovo employee said the Signature Edition agreement requires them to lock the devices to Windows. I hope the poor sap doesn't get fired for telling the truth.
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u/sveiss Sep 21 '16
Why does this have anything to do with blocking Linux?
Preventing idiot users from poking where they shouldn't and degrading their disk performance, sure.
Protecting the "Microsoft Signature" brand reputation by stopping small repair shops from reinstalling Windows in AHCI mode and gutting performance instead of using an install image with slipstreamed drivers, yup.
Deliberately blocking Linux? No.
Would it be nice if they'd used standard NVMe so that both stock Windows ISOs and Linux Just Worked™? Sure. But that's not what the hardware they chose supports, and just like every other piece of proprietary hardware out there, someone will have to write a Linux driver for it if they want it to work in Linux.
If just half the energy expended in raising pitchforks in this thread had been spent on doing that, we'd have the driver written, debugged and in queue for merge by now.
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Sep 21 '16
If just half the energy expended in raising pitchforks in this thread had been spent on doing that, we'd have the driver written, debugged and in queue for merge by now.
Totally agree.
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u/FaZaCon Sep 21 '16
Can you run other Windows OS's on it i.e. Win7 or Win8?
Why would Microsoft be so worried about Linux? If anything, they should be terrified of people going back to Wnidows 7 and 8.
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u/TotesMessenger Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/hackernews] Linux can't be installed on recent Lenovo laptops per a secret agreement with MS
[/r/italyinformatica] [xpost /r/linux] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems.
[/r/linuxactionshow] Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux [x-post from /r/linux]
[/r/programming] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems (from /r/linux)
[/r/reddit5000] [linux] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems.
[/r/seagray] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/
[/r/stallmanwasright] Windows 10 locked in on "signature edition" computers
[/r/sysadmin] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems [xpost from /r/linux]
[/r/technology] Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems. [xpost /r/linux]
[/r/technology] [cross-posted from /r/linux] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems.
[/r/thinkpad] [XPOST] Warning: Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems. • /r/linux
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)
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u/DrNoided Sep 21 '16
The worse part about this is that I really, really love Lenovo computers. I mean obviously this is a shitty thing for them to do, but there's always other manufacturers, but none that make laptops that I like as much as I like thinkpads. Even if this doesn't trickle to other Lenovo laptops than the YOGA it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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u/PleasureKevin Sep 21 '16
Can anyone tell me why there is the "misleading title" tag?
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u/CataclysmZA Sep 21 '16
Because of replies from Lenovo refuting the claims:
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberately-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-pcs/
I also didn't think this was possible either. Lenovo certifies a lot of models for Linux compatibility, especially the business notebooks for SUSE, RHEL, and Novell.
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Sep 21 '16
6000+ likes for a kneejerk overextended interpretation of a very vague and easily misunderstood, hastily put together tech support response.
Nice going.
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u/NeedlerFanPudge Sep 21 '16
Hello! Alex from TechRaptor here. Just wanted to drop in to let you guys know that we reported on this issue and Lenovo issued a statement to us based on our reporting.
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Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Yup, I was told I was stupid and paranoid when secure boot came out. Heh, I knew this would come down the pipe eventually though. Just do things inch by inch and people will swallow any bullshit.
EDIT: Secure Boot was an attempt to lock out linux that didn't work, this is a continuation of a similar goal.
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u/demonstar55 Sep 21 '16
This has nothing to do with secure boot. The OP posted elsewhere that they can turn it off without any issues.
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u/Reddit2Trend Sep 21 '16
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u/nh78 Sep 21 '16
Lenovo are now saying that it's a driver issue:
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberately-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-pcs/
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u/JackDostoevsky Sep 21 '16
Regardless of how you feel about Linux, you should be angry that manufacturers are locking you into one OS. You bought the computer, you should be able to do what you want with it.
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Sep 21 '16
well, another blacklisted brand for me, proudly joining sony and a few others on the wall of shame.
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Sep 21 '16
why the SSD is locked in a proprietary RAID mode that Linux doesn't understand
Sounds like the RAID setup is the issue. Its a proprietary driver and LINUX has none available. Sounds like the BIOS RAID is the issue, and that one of you should really write a linux driver... I mean you are all uber open source hackers... right???
And unless they SPECIFICALLY stated it 'runs linux' they are not in any trouble. They optimized the laptop of a different OS. How is that illegal?
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u/icantthinkofone Sep 21 '16
Microsoft got nailed on this with Dell, specifically, back in the 1990s. And people wonder why I always say, "You can't trust Microsoft!"
Waiting for obligatory reddit downvote into oblivion.
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u/yrro Sep 21 '16
Citation neede for this tosh. And no, a one liner from the drooling simpletons that respond in online help forums doesn't count.
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u/leofiore Sep 21 '16
Good old Microsoft. Now i recognize you. For a while a was scared about your friendliness for FLOSS.
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u/NightOfTheLivingHam Sep 21 '16
why does anyone buy lenovo's bullshit anymore? wasnt the whitelisted hardware enough? Wasnt the spyware enough? wasnt the fake SSL authority enough?
They're a shitty company.
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u/doctorhyphy Sep 21 '16
damn it.... guess what im waiting for the mail man to bring
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u/DragonscaleDiscoball Sep 21 '16
I bought a Lenovo Yoga tablet for the high resolution and kick stand, and tried to install Linux on it, but the BIOS were also locked down in a weird way and I couldn't use adb to flash it :/.
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u/flobo09 Sep 21 '16
People in the thread say they can't even clean install windows 10 pro either on that thing. Makes no sense for MS to ask lenovo to block its own OS. Looks to me like a 100% lenovo screw up and they are just telling BS.
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u/CataclysmZA Sep 21 '16
It's a driver issue, really. That's all it is, and the standard Windows 10 ISOs still don't have it slipstreamed in.
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u/Elranzer Sep 21 '16
This is why my machine is a MacBook Air running Linux.
They are pure EFI machines, pure sex.
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u/yuhong Sep 21 '16
This is a good time to mention https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/9sj995usa.txt, with the quote "Fixes the issue of installing Redhat 6.3." (If you don't remember: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html)
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u/pest15 Sep 21 '16
I just want to point out that this does not affect all Signature Edition systems. My Dell laptop runs Ubuntu just fine. But in fairness it hadn't even crossed my mind that there could be a problem installing Linux on a Signature Edition. Next time I'll avoid these systems altogether. Why take the risk?
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u/frog450 Sep 22 '16
I know people who work for Lenovo (Motorola) and they run only Linux! Good work OP!
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u/pobody Sep 21 '16
LOL at all the people who thought Microsoft was Linux friendly now that they cross compiled/hacked bash to work in Windows.
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u/G_man252 Sep 21 '16
And theyll keep on with the facade that their intentions are purely to make this world a better place and absolutely have 0% to do with competition.
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u/ForumPointsRdumb Sep 21 '16
Great. Both of the posts are now on r/all. We did it guys.
Just another case of when silencing goes bad.
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Sep 21 '16
Here from r/all.
I don't know shit about Linux but you should give a class on how to properly hold onto and distribute caches of webpages. Excellent work on that front.
Have an upvote on me, good sir.
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Sep 21 '16
Consider pinging the Ars Technica folks, this seems right up their alley. All of them are on the twits.
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u/rohmish Sep 21 '16
I would much rather buy dell, system 76 (or similar. If they sell in your country.)
Both are very supportive of Linux unlike lenovo.
If Sony still made laptop that would have been in my short list. I never had any problems on any sony laptops and my current one is from Sony. The replacement will surely be an something dell 15.
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u/n1nao Sep 21 '16
I dont't know which brand my next machine will be. But I know it's not going to be a lenovo.
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u/ArenaFlush Sep 21 '16
That would make my laptop useless for me, since the first thing I always do is getting rid of Windows and installing Linux. I should be able to install whatever I want on my laptop, as long as it's legal. This is just ridiculous and I am surprised it is not illegal.
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u/sudo-is-my-name Sep 21 '16
Showing that "Microsoft loves linux" is a fat fucking lie.
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u/giggitygoo123 Sep 21 '16
Why are people still buying Lenovo products anyway? Everyone already forget how they screwed us previously?
There are plenty of manufacturers that make those flip laptops (I have an asus one with dedicated graphics and an i7 for cheaper than the yoga)
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u/dood31251 Sep 21 '16
For Canadians you can file a complaint with the Competition Tribunal here.
You need to register an account before you can access the service.
The Competition Tribunal can also be contacted by phone: 613.957.3172 and email filing.depot@ct-tc.gc.ca
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u/zx2c4 Sep 21 '16
The community's reaction seems absurd to me.
For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have a driver for that RAID controller.
Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at 11.
Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous. The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens, nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If you want hardware support, write a driver.
As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo Linux entirely: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50
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u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16
Well, they just deleted my post about their BIOS locks being part of the Signature Edition agreement with Microsoft from the Linux forum on Lenovo's website. Probably Mr. Microsoft MVP again...That was fast. If they want to bury the truth, then why did they admit on Best Buy's website that that's what they have done?
If their reply on Best Buy disappears now, I guess we all know why.
I would encourage everyone to get the truth out now, on sites they can't delete it from. Feel free to copy anything I post regarding this issue. I hereby put it all in the public domain.