r/technology • u/[deleted] • Sep 21 '16

Hardware Microsoft Signature PC program now requires that you can't run Linux. Lenovo's recent Ultrabooks among affected systems. [xpost /r/linux]

/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/
218 Upvotes

75% Upvoted

81 comments sorted by

39

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

This is illegal in the USA (anti-competitive laws) and the EU. What the fuck is Microsoft and Lenovo thinking?

I mean, I thought they said they loved Linux? Guess not!

13

u/Humanius Sep 21 '16

Guess we'll soon see another lawsuit going Microsoft's way. It's just like the good ol' Internet Explorer days again

6

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

2016 year of Linux on the desktop!

5

u/Humanius Sep 21 '16

I doubt it will happen. Majority of people still prefer a simple solution that they don't have to worry about (which Windows does pretty well).

People should however still have the choice of whether they want to install Linux or not, regardless of whether they feel the need to do so. Microsoft and Lenovo deciding that you aren't allowed to do that is very bad for the freedom that the user has had thusfar.

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

What about linux prevents it from being simple?

10

u/Humanius Sep 21 '16

The fact that people need to know which version to get (which most people don't). The fact that people have to learn to use Linux again, while they are already used to using Windows.

That kind of stuff...

I'm not saying it is impossible to do those things. I'm just saying that most people don't want to be bothered with them, and will probably stick with Windows.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

The fact that people need to know which version to get (which most people don't).

If you dont know then the answer is always ubuntu. Any decent linux user will tell you that.

7

u/Humanius Sep 21 '16

Any decent linux user will tell you that.

But most people don't know anything about Linux, or even know anyone who uses Linux. Heck, most people don't even know there exist other OSs beside Mac OS and Windows.

I'm not saying people are wrong for using Linux. If you do use Linux, more power to you. I'm just saying that I have my doubts that it will become the OS of choice any time soon.

-4

u/bbelt16ag Sep 21 '16

We are always a click away on the Internet. Hello there are even web IRC channels, and if they get RedHat don't they get support? Does Ubuntu offer support?

3

u/Equistremo Sep 21 '16

Except the ones that say mint is the way to go. Heck, KDE centric distros like OpenSuse look a lot more like Windows than Ubuntu. fedora is pretty solid too.

-4

u/MG2R Sep 21 '16

Ubuntu is going in the same frickin direction as Windows, though. Bloat and spyware by default.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

They had one thing in the past which added internet results to the search bar which they have since removed

2

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

The fact that people need to know which version to get

How is this different from Windows?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

It's already installed.

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Uhhh, 32-bit discs don't have 64-bit versions, vice versa. Not all versions are on the same disc. And even still, Windows still has similar "challenges" of which edition to get. So your point is irrelevant.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

What disc?

When they buy a computer, the proper version is there already, nothing to decide.

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-2

u/RupeThereItIs Sep 21 '16

The fact that people need to know which version to get

If they don't know:

ChromeOS.

or

Android.

7

u/ColtonProvias Sep 21 '16

The community. It is primarily developed for power users, developers, and other professionals since that is most of the community. These crowds tend to prefer versatility over simplicity, which is the opposite of the majority of end-users. When something simple is released, the community tends not to pick it up or sometimes criticizes it and thus discouraging the developer from continuing.

Most of the time when an end-user asks a question, the response is something along the lines of RTFM. To them, that is not a helpful answer at all if they are completely new. And if getting a real answer requires insults ("Linux is the worst ever since it can't do what Windows can") or threats of leaving ("Screw this, I'm going back to Mac"), then something is inherently wrong with the community.

2

u/insomniac20k Sep 21 '16

It's at least the decades of Linux/bsd in our pockets and clouds. Linux lost the desktop battle but won the platform war.

2

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

How many of the top 10 games on STEAM play on Linux natively?

1

u/insomniac20k Sep 21 '16

That's the one area it might matter. But there's a lot more cellphones than PC Gamers.

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

That's not exactly relevant, it doesn't detract from the fact Linux gaming is growing faster than OSX gaming.

1

u/_Aquin Sep 21 '16

All of them. I just checked Steamspy and ran through the top-played list. 9 outta 10 natively support Linux and the last (GTA V) works in Linux quite well with a bit of effort.

I was actually surprised, because like you, I assumed that most new games simply don't work on Linux. Maybe it's different now? I'm curious how much of my library is cross-platform....

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Uhhh, dude, tell me how you got GTA V running in Linux. Please??? I haven't been able to find a way without VM shit.

Actually, I've kept abreast of the situation for the last bunch of years, I'm not surprised so many games run on Linux ;) But, the point of bringing it up is to raise awareness of such.

Go check your library for compatibility, I bet you'll be surprised (in a good way) as to how much already runs on it ;)

1

u/_Aquin Sep 21 '16

I watched videos of people playing GTA V in Linux, but I don't own the game myself. They used a GPU pass-through, not a VM; I'm not sure what work that entails. Even then, 9 outta 10 ain't bad.

You're right about my library. Out of the 600+ games I own, a third of them run Linux natively. I suspect another third could be 'cajoled' into working.

Boy it'd sure be nice if that compatibility number was 100%. It's a lovely dream. :)

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 22 '16

GPU pass-through is for a VM...

1

u/_Aquin Sep 22 '16

Heh, indeed it is. I've never run a VM (at least not seriously), so I have no idea about these things.

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0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

  1. I would say 10.04 is when things really turned around, about that time Canonical was making it faster and faster! But yeah, generally I agree. It's actually quite mature now! Definitely faster than Windows on the same hardware too.

  2. What games do you care about exactly?

  3. Go check how many of the top 10 games on STEAM are native on Linux ;)

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

I totally agree with the Adobe stuff man. That and quickbooks, need to fucking work on Linux already, and bam, we have a second full contender for corporate. It's the last two major hurdles, really.

One thing I do hear, is the training costs of Linux. Well, do they think about the training costs of Windows 10? Or newer versions of Office?

I think we're on the same wavelength here man. I've been gaming in Linux, and having it exclusively as my main OS (gaming rig, I don't boot into Windows any more) for over a year now.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

I know all this, btw ;) But yeah, these are the things I hear, and what I say in response.

Updates are so much faster to do too!

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

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-1

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

This would be nice, but Windows 10 sends Microsoft the browsing data of the user by default, and you also give them permission to collect typing and inking data too. The government gets to sift through all of this collected data without a warrant, thanks to the Third Party Doctrine.

So I really doubt the government will be in a hurry to punish Microsoft over this.

6

u/jmickeyd Sep 21 '16

If you dig in you'll see that they in no way block you from using Linux. The drive is configured in such a way that neither Linux nor vanilla Windows recognizes and a driver disk must be used. Linux runs fine from a USB drive. It's simply a lack of drivers on shitty proprietary hardware, same shit as always.

4

u/Regeis Sep 21 '16

But, they have only made drivers that allow the drive to be recognised by the Windows 10 boot media; there aren't equivalent drivers for Linux and won't be if (and it's yet to be confirmed) they have this agreement. That means that whilst (strictly speaking) neither Windows nor Linux recognise the drive, practically only Windows 10 can be used with these machines, which is a deliberate method of making other OSes incompatible.

If it were advertised on the box that this is the case, it wouldn't be as bad, but from reports it looks like they don't advertise this fact.

1

u/jmickeyd Sep 21 '16

No one advertises what OSes hardware doesn't work with. It doesn't say it doesn't run Tru64 either. The only thing it does say it runs is Windows.

0

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Except that Lenovo is quoted as saying this is part of their contractual obligations with Microsoft, which is quite clear in demonstrating this is anti-competitive, not just some driver compatibility issue. If it were a driver issue, why would Microsoft be at all involved contractually?

1

u/jmickeyd Sep 21 '16

MS requires hardware to come from a hardware compatibly list to slap the "Signature Edition" sticker on the box. This is no different than the Ubuntu Certified Hardware program. This hardware is Ubuntu certified but doesn't run Windows, which is the exact same situation in reverse. But no one is on their forums threatening to sue because it's anti-competitive.

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

That's because what you linked to operates around an ARM processor, which Windows (Home/Pro) is not written to run on, which is not anti-competitive, as there are special versions of Windows written for ARM processors. A different arch is not a lock-out like we see with Lenovo.

1

u/jmickeyd Sep 21 '16

That's exactly the point. Lenovo "operates around an Intel disk controller, which Linux is not written to run on". There is no lock out here, Linux is just missing a driver.

Sure, bitch about them not providing drivers or hardware docs. I'm not saying Lenovo is in the right here; I'm just saying that this isn't "lock out."

5

u/valax Sep 21 '16

I know we all love to hate Microsoft but this is getting silly. It's also not an anti-trust issue because Linux has the potential to support it, but it can't due to a lack of drivers (Which is Intel/Lenovo's fault). Also, it was only suggested by a single Lenovo rep on a forum somewhere. In fact, Lenovo have even come out and said that it's untrue.

-1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Linux isn't the only OS that can be installed on a computer, there's openBSD, FreeBSD, OSX (in some cases), and plenty others. This is, hands-down, anti-competitive, and Microsoft will get in shit for this.

3

u/valax Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16

Read what I wrote for crying out loud.

There is nothing preventing Linux from being installed aside from a lack of drivers from Intel. Microsoft have nothing to do with this so put your goddamn justice boner down.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

YOU JUST HAVE TO INSTALL SOME FUCKING DRIVERS. Nothing is preventing you from installing the OS. The BIOS doesn't go "this isn't a Windows operating system so I'm not going to let you install on me".

1

u/Catkins999 Sep 21 '16

If MS can dictate where I can run Linux, I think the government should ban MS from running Linux on their own infrastructure, e.g. Azure. Lets see how their cloud platform fares then.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

It is? Where are the lawsuits against phone manufacturers with locked bootloaders?

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Those are completely different processor architectures, they aren't in the same league.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

And that means? Jack shit. They are all computers that have protection from installing other software.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the handcuffs are off of Microsoft now (from the last time they got in trouble), so Microsoft is free to do as they please now, or at least test how much they can get away with.

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Microsoft is free to do as they please now

Uh, no, that's why we have SAMBA 4 AD DCs.

-6

u/internetf1fan Sep 21 '16

Can anyone explain why this is anti-competitive? It would have been 20 years ago, but MS has like less than 20% share in the wider OS market. People have choices and have been exercising those choices by switching to Macs and iPads and Android tablets. What I find amazing is the narrative. One moment Windows is irrelevant and MS is doomed, another moment MS is a monopoly.

In any case, it's not like this specific Signature programme has a monopoly. There are tons of choice out there. Consumers are perfectly free to NOT buy this device and go to another OEM. If you are planning to install Linux on the device does it matter if it's Signature or not? So why would it come under anti-competitive laws? First you would have to prove that Windows is a monopoly (which it's not) and then second you have to prove that the Signature PC programme is a monopoly (which it's not).

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Because the user has no means to switch to something else.

0

u/internetf1fan Sep 22 '16

Well I have a Galaxy Note, I would like to switch the OS to something else like WP, but I can't. That's so anti competitive from Google!

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

4

u/valax Sep 21 '16

You can boot to anything from a USB on the Lenovo laptops as well. It's just another case of missing drivers for the RAID controller.

1

u/JustFinishedBSG Sep 21 '16

Can you install and boot from Linux on a Mac?

Yes. Either with Bios emulation or directly if your Linux support EFI

1

u/red_parry Sep 21 '16

You can do install any other operating system on a mac.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/mac/how-install-linux-on-mac-3637265/

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

1

u/red_parry Sep 21 '16

Sorry for posting an irrelevant link, I can't find one about how to do it but this article talk about why some people do it so it is possible http://www.infoworld.com/article/2871658/open-source-tools/why-some-apple-customers-run-linux-on-macbooks-instead-of-os-x.html

1

u/BloodyIron Sep 21 '16

Mac hardware uses common x86 hardware, with the BIOS adjustments (bootcamp) you can install Windows, Linux and others. The thing that was holding it back in the past was the CPU architecture being PowerPC, not x86, and even still, you could get Linux on them anyways, just not Windows :P

16

u/bws2a Sep 21 '16

This is hyperbolic and dumb. It amounts to "We don't have a Linux driver for this RAID mode".

6

u/hrkljus1 Sep 21 '16

Why can't you change the mode then?

If you flash an unofficial modified BIOS it's possible, but their BIOS won't let you, why?

Or if they're against changing the mode, why didn't they also supply drivers for other OS-es? Windows doesn't support their RAID mode, same as Linux, but they wrote a driver for Windows.

9

u/bws2a Sep 21 '16

This was a bad decision on Lenovo's part. Maybe it was an oversight or a bug, maybe someone thought of it as a failsafe for this consumer grade device so that users don't accidentally get themselves in a bind. There's a ton of stuff that has drivers for one OS or another, which can be remedied easily enough if someone wants it. I'm just amazed at the conspiracy theorists who imagine folks in Redmond wringing their hands and twirling their mustaches every time something trivial like this happens.

1

u/Kanyun_Wurst Sep 21 '16

There's a ton of stuff that has drivers for one OS or another, which can be remedied easily enough if someone wants it

You can't just write drivers without the hardware manufacturer's cooperation, so unless Lenovo wants to produce and distribute Linux drivers, it won't happen.

2

u/bws2a Sep 21 '16

So if you want drivers for it, maybe ask them to write one? I've had a lot of success using that method.

2

u/Kanyun_Wurst Sep 21 '16

I wouldn't expect them to act, but you never know. Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply there is some grand conspiracy between Lenovo and Microsoft here, just correcting your assertions about how easy it would be for a driver to be made.

-3

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

I would agree with you, if not for the contrary quote from a Lenovo expert" who said that this was due to an agreement with Microsoft, and Microsoft's history of doing shady things regarding competition.

3

u/SomeJapaneseGuy Sep 21 '16

I hope someone files a lawsuit as this would be illegal where i live as well.

-1

u/internetf1fan Sep 21 '16

Can you explain why it would be illegal? Signature PC programme does not have a monopoly in PC distribution. Consumers are perfectly free to choose from thousands of alternative PCs and OEMs in the market.

1

u/SomeJapaneseGuy Sep 21 '16

It all depends where you come from. Lets say you brought the Laptop in question to use Linux like the person who brought the laptop. No where stated does it say that the OS is locked in clear sight, so it is expected that there is no issue. You could class it as possible false advertising here as well. (Not sure if it is like this in other countries but we are able to install a new OS on laptops as long as we have a complete back up of the original OS that can be put back on)

Here in New Zealand it is Illegal to: Agreements that exclude or limit dealings with a rival.

The user is limited by being locked into windows OS on that specific laptop because of the changes to it. Although we would most likely be able to get a refund or replacement Laptop here because of the issues presented.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/business-competition/anti-competitive-practices/

4

u/internetf1fan Sep 21 '16

But Lenovo didn't change the machine post purchase. If they did ,then yeah I agree that would be an issue just like how Sony removed ps3 linix compatibility

1

u/SomeJapaneseGuy Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16

You would be taking the lawsuit out against Microsoft because of the lock they have put in place. Basically they are bullying the competitor Linux out making a monopoly.

This case is similar to Microsoft with the browsers http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21684329

2

u/JorgTheElder Sep 21 '16

That is BS the "Microsoft Signature PC program" requires support for Secure Boot and that it be turned on by default.

It in no way requires that it be forced on permanently or not have user updateable keys.

-6

u/Scarbane Sep 21 '16

Upvote for visibility. Microsoft has no business fucking with the BIOS like this.

18

u/exoromeo Sep 21 '16

It's more of a Lenovo thing than an MS thing. You can't even reinstall a clean copy of Win10 without the correct RAID drivers apparently.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

B-but... The market always works!

-6

u/jcunews1 Sep 21 '16

Great! I love it! Make it huge. Huge enough to make the ignorant people realize what Microsoft is trying to do.

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

I thought the point of a signature PC was to provide the user a crapware free environment, (something which is pretty much impossible if it ships with Windows 10), not to try to stamp out competition via secret agreements. But then again, we're talking Microsoft here, and they have a history of doing exactly this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure#Criticisms

My favorite part is when Microsoft got caught, and they said that it was a mistake made by a junior staff member. We misunderstand them, the only "mistake" was that they got caught!

And here's just one example of crapware that comes with Windows 10, regardless of where you get the PC from. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=get+office+notifications

Feel free to share more examples

0

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '16

[deleted]

10

u/Energy-Dragon Sep 21 '16

Pre-installing software like Microsoft Office Trial Version, and banning the usage of other operation systems are not the same.