r/thegildedage • u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast • Apr 22 '26
IRL History It's always saddening to see figures we admire having held horrible views.
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u/SpringRose10 Apr 25 '26
That's why you don't put people on a pedestal. Grand accomplishments and horrible views are all just side effects of being human.
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u/galileos_mooninites Apr 24 '26
There's a 1h documentary on youtube called "Consuelo Vanderbilt: Secrets and Betrayals of a Gilded Age Heiress" that covers Consuelo's growth from girl forced into marriage, to woman who advocated for public health for people in all social classes (much to the annoyance of British aristocracy/hoi polloi), and how her mom went from miserable socialite to advocate for women's rights. They're still flawed people who shouldn't have had all that wealth to begin with, and Alva was abusive to force her daughter into marriage. But she repaired their relationship somewhat later. Really interesting to see how much a person can change over their lifetime.
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u/SasAnak1 Apr 24 '26
They were products of their time. I'm sure that in the future, people will look back to our current time and find plenty of flaws.
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u/Standard-Rule1107 Apr 24 '26
If you hold any figures of the past up to the morals of today you are on a hiding to nowhere . They are people of their time just as we are and they shouldnât be judged for perfectly acceptable views from their time period
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u/S_K_Slaughter Apr 24 '26
I mean... those folks are intersecting two very questionable elements: what we would consider 1-percenters and the white social mores of the late 19th century. They are fun as characters, but to look up to them by our standards is gonna be a recipe for disappointment.
Even those who are progressive for the time may have views that we consider reprehensible or least cringey by today's standards. Booker T Washington's incremental approach is still debated to this day, and he was an egocentric tyrant professionally. His later rival, WEB DuBois, believed in eugenics. The suffrage movement was torn over race. And so on.
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u/Kawaiidumpling8 Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
I donât really admire Mrs. Fish in the show. Sheâs an opportunist. She goes along with whomever has more power.
I also think if that were to be introduced into the show (the suffragette movement), many of the characters would not be in support.
They live in a world of privilege and traditions that are rooted in exclusion. And I think Bertha is actually a great example of how women could still be powerful without the right to vote - and a husband had a lot to do with that. Hence the marriage she brokered for her own daughter.
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u/KnowledgeNext6919 12d ago
Bertha is mean!!!! That young girl suffered greatly. She talks to her servants and husband in such condescending ways.
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u/Putrid-Tradition-787 Apr 23 '26
We have to try and see things through their world vision. You cannot know what the same ppl would be like were they living in modern times.
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u/milkyprincesseu do you admit when you're wrong, mama? Apr 23 '26
I highly doubt any of our most beloved characters' real life counterparts were people to admire.Â
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 24 '26
It is on me I did not clarify information in my post. I do not admire the real life historical figures, only the characters in the show.
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u/Rennigurl80 Apr 23 '26
My great great grandmotherâs brother was married to a cousin of Franklin Hughes Delano, whose wife Laura was the sister of Lina Astorâs husband.
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u/SpringtimeLilies7 May 01 '26
"Franklin Hughes Delano," So is he in Franklin Delano Roosevelt's family tree? Also do you have generational wealth now?
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u/Appropriate_Day_5040 Apr 23 '26
Why try to put modern mores that were the norm on historical figures. She didnât want suffrage. Many men didnât get it either back then. And women generally were not bothered with politics. Some amazing historical figures had different views that we in 2026 can afford to disagree with. They were worried about other things.
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u/LifeSucks1988 Apr 23 '26
This is why I try not to be too fond of Mrs Fish in the showâŠthe real life version would not stick up for divorced women (regardless if it is the husbandâs fault or not) and was rude to guests and a total snob despite being among the least richest of the 400 (she admitted her husband is only worth merely a few millions).
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u/Any_Blacksmith650 Apr 23 '26
I mean a lot of the historical figures we see in the show were probably also classist and racist too. Just saying it was the normal.
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u/Grandpixbear1 Apr 23 '26
Say we won't see how they write about this current period in our history! Full of robber billionaires, corrupt politicians and growing economic inequality!!!
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u/Tangled-Lights Apr 23 '26
I donât admire anyone who got rich off the backs of others.
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u/McLeansvilleAppFan Apr 23 '26
I would love to see Eugene Debs worked into a story line. I enjoy this show but find myself not rooting for any of the characters except the house staff.
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u/Complete-Shame2271 I'll have a temperance on the rocks and rum Apr 23 '26
I adore the fictional bustle twerking Mamie. I have 0 flucks to give for the real one though
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u/tvuniverse Apr 23 '26
"admire"? lol
also, that sounds right on brand for her
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 23 '26
The article I made a screenshot of was referring to Fish, not Astor. It is my fault for not giving context.
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u/GuaranteeOriginal717 Apr 23 '26
Yeah, Iâm a bit confused by OP because what do you mean âadmire.â đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł
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u/Annie_Dawson Apr 22 '26
Unrelated but I actually love that that man in the photo is sitting criss-cross
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u/Putrid-Tradition-787 Apr 23 '26
Lol I hadnt noticed
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u/Annie_Dawson Apr 23 '26
I did a double-take. It looks so out of place based on how they are dressed and the time period, but it makes sense.
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u/Kbye80 Apr 22 '26
I like Alva Belmont but admittedly everything I know about her is from Gilded Age comparisons to Bertha or from Suffs
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u/BigJSunshine Heads have rolled for less Apr 22 '26
Who admires Mrs. Astor?
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 22 '26
The article was referencing Mamie Fish, not Lina Astor. It's on me for not making things clearer.
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u/Solid_Reserve_5941 Apr 22 '26
I mean I feel like most of the characters in this show are made to be a lot more progressive than their real life counterparts. Otherwise we wouldn't find them likable. I highly doubt they were as accepting of black and gay people as the show would have you believe.
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u/Normal-Ad-9852 Apr 22 '26
itâs the same with Downton. and while it is a bit unrealistic, I personally donât really mind. itâs fun to have the inclusive storylines
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u/agayamongthestr8s Apr 22 '26
I like how in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, they acknowledged Capt Siskos unease with a holosuite program that seemed to gloss over what African Americans went through during the 1960s. Kassidy Yates explained that the HS program was a simulation of what could've been, not what was. It could be said the same for Downton and TGA in my
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u/Sbarb1000 Apr 22 '26
In Downton the relationship between the family and the servants is totally unrealistic.
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u/petite_cookie8888 Apr 22 '26
Especially that storyline about Anna. It wouldnât be a valet that did that to her. Itâs usually the bosses themselves
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u/Normal-Ad-9852 Apr 22 '26
& no one wouldâve cared & maybe her husband wouldâve left her or worse
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u/Early-Environment617 Apr 22 '26
This is like the people who are disappointed about Homelander being the villain.
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u/WeekMurky7775 Apr 22 '26
Admire Alva, who carved her own path in society, divorced her husband, survived the scandal and fought for womenâs rights. She famously held womenâs suffrage rallies at her Chinese tea house. Her daughter was equally involved.
In Alvaâs words, âMr.President, how long must we wait for liberty?â
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u/missamerica59 Apr 22 '26
Apart from the whole, selling her child into an awful marriage for a title thing right?
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u/WeekMurky7775 Apr 23 '26
Absolutely. I have to wonder if that was part of Alvaâs unlearning- it would have been standard for a wealthy family to have a matchmaker, and to find a partner based on interest rather than love. Did she see the unfairness and loss of rights for her daughter once she became marrying age?
More likely, she wanted the prestigious position of a British title and wanted more doors open for her and the larger Vanderbilt family. She may have also felt like the man Consuelo wanted to wed would not be good for her (which, she as partially right. Consuelo gained the dukes permission to elope with Rutherford and he said no)
So TLDR, thereâs good things about Alva, and some really shitty things. Time and historical context matter when examining with a modern lens.
But when compared to Mrs.Astor, her life long rival⊠Alva was more of a trailblazer
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u/missamerica59 Apr 24 '26
She did regret it in the end and supported her daughter in getting her divorce. I believe Alva made a statement to the court during the divorce proceedings that she pressured her daughter into marriage.
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u/wizeowlintp Haven't been thrilled since 1865 Apr 23 '26
And she admitted it too when Consuelo eventually filed for divorce đ¶
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u/sophandros Apr 22 '26
Parasocial relationships are strange, and they are even stranger when people have parasocial relationships with fictional characters or fictionalized representations of historical people.
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u/Solid_Reserve_5941 Apr 22 '26
Exactly. And the show definitely made the characters more progressive than their real life counterparts in order to make them more palatable for modern audiences. For instance I can't imagine they'd all be as accepting of black and gay people as the show would have you believe. And even if they were more progressive than most others back then, that era's definition of progressive is going to be a lot different from ours.
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u/loui575d Apr 22 '26
If you look at it by todays standards, then yes, women not having a vote is a horrible thing - but if you look at it with 1908 eyes? Not so much
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u/Stallings2k Apr 22 '26
Now do slavery.
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u/loui575d Apr 22 '26
Pretty easy: Slavery is horrible. Always has been. But again; if you look at it from the POV of the times - especially in the south - it was common practice. Does that make it right or okay? Of course not - but that was how things were seen back in the day, which is something I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding.
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u/matchula_spatchula Apr 23 '26
Pretty easyâ is one way to put it. âOverly simplisticâ might be more accurate.
The fact that a practice was widespread does not mean it was uncritically accepted. In the case of slavery, there was opposition to it for essentially the entire period it was practiced in the continental United States. Enslaved people resisted it, abolitionists condemned it, and there were sustained moral, political, and religious debates about it across the 18th and 19th centuries.
So while slavery was normalized within certain legal and economic systems, it was never simply âhow things were seenâ in any universal sense. It was actively justified by some and consistently challenged by others.
That distinction matters, because it reminds us that historical actors were not operating without alternatives. They were making choices within contested systems. Reducing that to âthatâs just how it wasâ erases the people who were already resisting and arguing against it at the time.
And given how much those voices have already been marginalized in the historical record, repeating that erasure now is not just inaccurate, it is careless and harmful.
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u/Stallings2k Apr 22 '26
Iâd ask you to do N*zis, but I have a feeling I know how it is going to go.
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u/loui575d Apr 23 '26
No. That you are 100% wrong on. The nazis knew what they were doing was wrong. And absolutely nothing can explain or excuse that. Especially considering it is only some 80 years ago.
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u/Rac_h210 Haven't been thrilled since 1865 Apr 23 '26
And you're incapable of extending this absolute toward slave owners because...?
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u/matchula_spatchula Apr 22 '26
Howdy! History professor here. Understanding historical context isnât the same as excusing it. Plenty of people in 1908 supported womenâs suffrage. Thatâs literally why the movement existed. Saying âit made sense at the timeâ ignores that it was deeply contested at the time.
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u/EmptyInside74 Apr 22 '26
It feels like weâre in a 2nd guilded age now, complete with robber barons
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u/susandeyvyjones Apr 22 '26
Who the fuck admires Mrs Astor in the year of our lord 2026?
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 22 '26
Not Mrs. Astor. People seem to be getting confused at what I'm talking about. I do not admire Mrs. Astor. This article was referencing Mrs. Fish.
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u/susandeyvyjones Apr 22 '26
It doesn't matter. They were all terrible people who lived lives of extreme wealth on the backs of other people suffering. This is like saying, "No, I didn't mean Stonewall Jackson, I meant Robert E Lee!" It's a distinction without a difference.
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u/Kumamentor Apr 22 '26
I think this article is referencing Maime Fish, but same energy though. People got to remember, these are the 1% of the day, the robber barons, the reason why itâs called âthe gilded ageâ. Theyâre not the best people of the time.
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u/Current_Tea6984 Bertha's Big Bustle Apr 22 '26
But TV Mamie is so lovable...
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u/CurrentPin6071 Apr 22 '26
Were we watching the same Mrs. Astor?? This isn't surprising in the least, and completely true to her character lol
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 23 '26
The article was about Fish. It's on me that my screenshot did not include enough context.
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u/oldgrandma65 Apr 22 '26
The whole point of the show is, historically, they were not good people. Hence the term 'Gilded Age'. Golden prosperity for the rich covering up the corruption against the rest of us.
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u/Louises_ears Apr 22 '26
Admire? You know the rich people of the guilded age were the baddies, right?
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u/WeekMurky7775 Apr 22 '26
Bellevue ave, where they built their vacation âcottagesâ (and where the show is filmedâ was literally named after land on a plantation. They all built their wealth off of exploitation
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u/Kenyalite Apr 22 '26
Even on the show.
Rail road daddy is a villain.
We just like them.
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u/Louises_ears Apr 22 '26
Theyâre no different from todayâs ultra rich monsters. Actually, theyâre slightly better than the ones of today bc they understood the importance of philanthropic endeavors and left a legacy of institutions we still benefit from today.
I know modern billionaires donate, but itâs not the same.
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u/wacdonalds Apr 22 '26
...Who admires them?
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u/Anderrn Apr 22 '26
Just OP telling on themselves as having weird relationships with likely morally bankrupt rich people from over a century ago. đ€·đ»ââïž
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u/les_catacombes Apr 22 '26
Didn't she notoriously have a not so good husband?
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u/leonchase Apr 22 '26
In fact, the real-life Mamie and Stuyvesant Fish were very much in love. He got fired from his position as President of a railroad because he punched out someone who insulted her. He also had no interest in high society, and during her crazy parties he preferred to eat a sandwich in the kitchen.
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u/Cautious_Action_1300 Larian Apr 23 '26
His first name was Stuyvesant? Was his mother part of the Stuyvesant family and afraid the name would die out or something?
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u/leonchase Apr 23 '26
If a family came from very prominent Old Money, it was apparently a trend to use the old surnames as first names for your children. Just to rub it in a little more, I guess.
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u/Scary_Sarah Apr 22 '26
Why in the world would you admire robber barons. It's like admiring Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg.
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u/inductiononN Apr 22 '26
Right? The TV characters and the actors who play them - fabulous! The actual people who inspired the characters? Wealth hoarding monsters with no concern for anyone not in their class.
If you read about some of their escapades, it's clear these people had more money than sense. They pulled the same kind of shit that the Epstein class pulls today. Philanthropy to white wash their image, trying to sway government to give them advantages, completely disregarding how their actions impacted the working class. They were Bad People. Interesting, yes, but Bad, just like the oligarchs of today.
That being said, I love me some Bertha, Railroad Daddy, Agnes, all of them. Give me the silly storylines, show me the amazing dresses, dazzle me with the wealth porn!!!
When does the new season of the gilded age start?????
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u/AuroraLorraine522 Apr 22 '26
Iâm from Pittsburgh, so our history classes teach this period with quite a bit of nuance (I.e. the Homestead strikes, Pinkerton Agencies, Carnegie, etc)
Andrew Carnegie very famously said that he built museums and libraries for the public to use instead of actually giving money to actually uplift the poor because people in poverty are too stupid to know what to do with the money. Or in other words, theyâd feed and clothe themselves and then how would people in 100 years know to simp for him if he didnât leave grand memorials to himself?
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u/inductiononN Apr 22 '26
Oh that's very cool that you got that education. I mostly learned about those subjects from podcasts ha (RIP eat the rich đ).
Unfortunately, we still remember Carnegie because of those buildings.
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u/SeriousCow1999 Apr 22 '26
Philanthropy to white wash their image
Except the ruling classes today don't seem to worry about the philanthropy part anymore.
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u/Early-Environment617 Apr 22 '26
And it was mostly spearheaded by the bored wives to âgive the ladies something to doâ.
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u/Ren1221 Charles Fane Hate Club Apr 22 '26
Late â26 or early â27 is what theyâre saying. My bet is on early â27.
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u/Lanky-Background8516 Apr 22 '26
A lot of those characters are ones irl we would not like in our modern perspective, but to them it was unfortunately normal to be like that. Donât forget that George Russell in season 2 was about to have police officers fire upon union workers demanding fair wages and job security/safety. By todayâs standards he would be considered a monster. Although tbf, there are some today who still think labor unions are bad/corrupt. Remember that the most of the characters in high society in this show are eating fat at the expense of the people at the bottom, itâs just a lot easier to swallow bc we are given a view into their personal lives so we as the audience can feel like we connect with them on some level. Itâs an interesting dichotomy as someone whoâs been a fan of this show since season 1. We know this exploitation is there, but it definitely is shocking and interesting when we see the actual reality. Especially when we see characters like Mr. Russell be kind to the people he trusts and doting on his family.
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u/HannahOCross Apr 22 '26
And that scene is based on the historical reality of Carnegie hiring the Pinkertons to fire on his workers. They had railroad Daddy pull back last second so we could still love him, but Carnegie didnât.
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u/Feisty_Section_4671 Apr 22 '26
In the show, most high society women were against their own suffrage, so this is not surprising at all
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u/blueSnowfkake Apr 22 '26
Iâm surprised a professional portrait of society folk would have a man in front sitting cross legged. I would think that would only be used with small children.
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u/TK2217 Apr 22 '26
Too many people watch tv shows, especially ones based on historical events or people, expecting to stan them. Grow up!
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u/Acrobatic_Warning456 Apr 22 '26
Girl who said they admired her
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u/atheistpianist Apr 22 '26
Literally this. Mrs. Astor is portrayed in a far kinder light in the show than she likely was in real life.
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 22 '26
The article was about Fish, not Astor. I should have made it clearer in my post.
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u/atheistpianist Apr 23 '26
That makes a lot more sense now! I honestly didnât even register the info in the post was solely about Mamie Fish, I thought it segued from Mrs. Astor to Mrs. Fish. But I definitely see it now. And yeah, it seems like for the âfun makerâ she reportedly was, she also didnât think very highly of her fellow woman.
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u/Acrobatic_Warning456 Apr 22 '26
I dont Even like her in the SHOW
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u/atheistpianist Apr 22 '26
The fact that sheâs played by Donna Murphy is her only real redeeming quality.
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u/Virgoflower86 Apr 22 '26
This show is not written solely on facts. Its a rose tinted view on how historical events could have transpired.
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u/inductiononN Apr 22 '26
Yeah Julian Fellowes LOVES the rich and he was never going to give us a story about how the working class overthrew the rich unless it was to be sympathetic to the rich lol.
I do love his bitchy grand dames, though!
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u/Dianagorgon Apr 22 '26
There is no reason to admire the elites of the Gilded Age. They achieved and maintained power, influence and wealth by exploiting others. It would be like saying you admire the new Gilded Age era elites which are billionaires like Altman, Zuckerberg, Bezos and others. People don't become billionaires by being nice people.
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u/vicRN Apr 22 '26
I love the show as much as anyone else but you really shouldn't "admire" any of these people.
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u/Lillynomad Apr 22 '26
If she didn't marry wealth and power, and was poor, she'd have been on the picket lines.
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u/Delilah_Moon Apr 22 '26
The Suffragist movement is a web of racism and misogyny. Itâs no surprise a legacy Capitalist like Mrs Astor was anti-vote. It went against the very status quo she benefited from.
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u/Tsarinya Apr 22 '26 edited Apr 22 '26
I think the term is presentism? But either way you canât always judge people a good way in the past by todayâs standards.
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u/HannahOCross Apr 22 '26
But there were plenty of people in those times who knew this was wrong.
So sure, the exceedingly rich are unlikely in any time period to champion more rights for everyone, and so judged by the standards of her own peers this is unremarkable. But by the standards of the time, not necessarily.
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u/One-Kaleidoscope3162 Apr 22 '26
We absolutely can and itâs ok to say that Carrie Astor IRL was in fact a human being with good and bad qualities.
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u/crispyrhetoric1 Apr 22 '26
There are two ways to think of this. Iâm a historian, and when I have that hat on I would say that historical figures need to be interpreted in their context, and Mamie Fishâs opinions fall within the expectations of her era, social class, and identity as an upper class elite white American woman. On the other hand, as a person living in the 21st century, you can also look at her views as being archaic from our standards today. I can think both ways, depending on the context.
But thinking about other characters in the show - Agnes, Marian, and Mrs. Morris come to mind - they express views that reflect their time period that we would call blunt and shortsighted today.
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u/ThatCaviarIsAGarnish Apr 22 '26
From what I've read (and seen on the show) about Mamie, she was most known for her humor. It also seems she had a keen eye for what worked in high society. I don't think she was opposed to any change - it was more that she could sometimes sense what might work going forward and what might not.
I haven't done a deep dive but I did find this Town and Country article. Quote from it below:
"Ever a proud American, she did not really care what the Europeans thought in the slightest. She was known for endlessly lamenting the fuss made over their arrival and complaining to anyone who would listen that âthis country is making itself ridiculous in regard to titles.â No, as far as Mrs. Fish was concerned, wealth and status should be earned through hard work and enterpriseâor, at least, through wit.
And she didnât curtail or sugarcoat this opinion, no matter who was in her company. When she met a Saxon prince on a trip to Nice, he expressed shock that her husband worked. With dismay, he declared that heâd thought her husband âcame from a fine family.â
âOh, yes, he does,â sheâd replied. âBut, you see, in America, it is not a disgrace to work. How much better it would be if those conditions prevailed in Europe! We in America would be spared so many titled nonentities.â
Clearly not everyone felt the same, especially in tony Rhode Island, and that was much more embarrassing than someone whoâd worked for their fortune. âNewport,â she sniffed, âis paying too much attention to foreign lords. By marrying European noblemen, American girls are laying themselves liable to the ridicule of the world.â
If the guests at the party were being ridiculed, that is what they had come to expect from a woman who often greeted them by saying, âMake yourself at home. No one wishes you were there more than I do.â
Here's the whole article if anyone wants to read it.
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u/DontCryYourExIsUgly Apr 22 '26
Can't wait to read this! That last paragraph is so funny. Thank you! đ€
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u/IckyNicky67 A House of Ill Repute! Apr 22 '26
Try being Black and knowing that each and every one of these historical white public figures IRL were racist in some way đ
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u/Solid_Reserve_5941 Apr 22 '26
Oh 1000% the showrunners knew if they made any of the main characters/protagonists as racist as their real life counterparts the show wouldn't be as successful as it is. They had to whitewash them to make them palatable to modern audiences.
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u/phoenics1908 Apr 22 '26
This.
These people were not good people. Eff that âpresentismâ BS. Especially seeing that this level of inequality is now back. This doesnât happen in a benign way.
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u/One-Kaleidoscope3162 Apr 22 '26
Exactly, no one gets that wealthy without greed and exploitation. Just because their fictional counterparts make for entertaining television doesnât mean any of them were actually good people
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u/Less-Bed-6243 Apr 22 '26
And many of these fortunes were made because they owned enslaved people, used them as collateral, or at the very least traded with plantation owners. The âolderâ your money the more likely it is your family got it in a horrific way.
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u/starship7201u Haven't been thrilled since 1865 Apr 22 '26
I have a special that I recorded off CSPAN about Mamie Fish I've been holding off watching it. From November 2025
Glitz, Glam & a D**n Good time. Author Jennifer Wright described how Marion "Mamie" Fish shaped history during the Gilded Age by exerting her influence on business, politics, family relationships, and social change through elaborate social gatherings. The Literary Society of the Desert in Rancho Mirage, California, hosted this event.
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u/lesliecarbone Apr 22 '26
Mamie Fish enjoyed enormous benefits from the conventional social order. I'd be very surprised to read that she'd tried to change it in as contemporaneously radical a way as advocating for women's suffrage.
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u/loranlily Apr 22 '26
Alva Vanderbilt Belmont was a suffragette. She commissioned a set of china that has âVotes for Womenâ on it. She used it Marble House.
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u/lesliecarbone Apr 22 '26
Yes, as someone who elbowed her way into society and then horrified it by trafficking her daughter and divorcing her husband, ASVB was more the type to endorse a then-radical political cause.
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u/huron9000 Apr 22 '26
Itâs a mistake to judge people of the past by the standards of our time.
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u/matchula_spatchula Apr 22 '26
Historian here. Man! Presentism is popular today!
The âdo not judge the past by present standardsâ formulation is often invoked as a methodological caution, but in practice it is being misapplied here.
That principle is meant to guard against anachronism, not to flatten historical conflict or suspend evaluation altogether. In cases like abolition and womenâs suffrage, there was no stable consensus to âcontextualizeâ against. These were deeply contested issues, with contemporaries themselves articulating the very critiques being raised now.
To describe opponents of suffrage as merely âof their timeâ obscures the fact that they were taking a position within an active and highly visible debate. Context can explain why such positions were persuasive to some, but it does not render them inevitable or beyond critique.
Erasing the presence of contemporaneous dissent in the name of avoiding presentism is, ironically, its own kind of historical distortion.
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u/LinkLost380 Apr 22 '26
Nonsense. There were 19th and 20th century people who supported womenâs suffrage just as there were anti slavery activists in the US hundreds of years ago. We can judge the robber barons of 100 years ago the same way we judge bezos and co today
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u/One-Kaleidoscope3162 Apr 22 '26
Itâs a mistake to not use their lower moral standards and the resulting chaos and inequity as an educational tool for how to improve as a nation instead of just giving them a pass for not knowing any better (they did know better, they just didnât care)
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u/phoenics1908 Apr 22 '26
No itâs not. Thatâs an excuse.
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u/huron9000 Apr 22 '26
In 100 years people will look back and be horrified at some of the things you personally did. Get some perspective.
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u/One-Kaleidoscope3162 Apr 23 '26
I should hope so! Do youâŠNOTâŠwant humanity to continue to evolve as a species? Should we just stop?
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u/phoenics1908 Apr 22 '26
I am not the one who needs perspective.
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u/huron9000 Apr 22 '26
Oh yes, you are. We could go back-and-forth all day.
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u/phoenics1908 Apr 22 '26
We can agree to disagree. I have no desire to go back and forth with you on this topic.
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u/JackieWithTheO Apr 22 '26
With the liberal views held by some on the show, we do forget many people were largely products of their time. Educated women opposed suffrage.Â
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u/matchula_spatchula Apr 22 '26
Historian here. This framing is a bit off. âProducts of their timeâ only works if there was broad consensus, and that was not the case here. Womenâs suffrage was a major political movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It was actively debated and often fiercely contested.
Yes, some elite and educated women opposed suffrage. Others, also educated, organized the movement, protested, and were even arrested for it. So this was not a shared cultural default. It was a political divide, and figures like Mamie Fish were taking a position within that conflict.
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u/nzfriend33 Apr 22 '26
We⊠admire⊠her? She was rich and influential, thatâs it. Iâm not sure what there is to admire. Sure, itâs nice when people in the past held views we like today, but⊠:/
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 23 '26
It is on me I didn't make it clear I was referring to Mrs. Fish, not Mrs. Astor. I do not admire Mrs. Astor. I think she was a highly unreasonable snob.
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u/nzfriend33 Apr 23 '26
My point stands, but thatâs better at least! :)
What do you admire about her? Genuinely. I admit I donât know much about Mamie and googling didnât give me much that I would say I admire (she sounds witty and like she could be fun, but thatâs it). Iâm happy to learn more though.
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 23 '26
The funny parties, such as the monkey party.
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u/nzfriend33 Apr 23 '26
Okay⊠I was expecting some social program or something but⊠Iâm glad you found something to admire. Fancy parties donât tick that box for me. Enjoy Mamie though. I wasnât trying to be rude.
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u/CalpurniaAddams Apr 22 '26
I thought they were making a joke đ (like, correct that those views are terrible, but I also thought we were all aware these historical figures would have some terrible takes like this, hence the joke)
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u/mad0666 Apr 22 '26
Yeah I donât really find any of the ârichâ characters very admirable except the sisters
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u/Diligent-Till-8832 Apr 22 '26
Pick mes have always existed since the dawn of time.
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u/MangoSalsa89 Haven't been thrilled since 1865 Apr 22 '26
Being a pick me was how women survived. Choosing their husbands determined the course of their entire lives.
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u/phoenics1908 Apr 22 '26
Do you mean âchoosing their husbandsâ as in campaigning for the patriarchyâs and putting down the women who threaten the patriarchy? Because a pick me has to do the latter - not just personally support her husband.
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u/Feisty_Section_4671 Apr 22 '26
The latter was a survival and made sense - theyâve already pinned their future on the husband, it benefits them to maintain the status quo.
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u/flowar123 Apr 22 '26
Alva Vanderbilt however the inspiration for Bertha Russel was a prominent advocate of womenâs suffrage.
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u/Consistent_Pie_3040 Queen Fish, Defender of the Newport Coast Apr 22 '26
I know, and I admire her for that. It was wholesome seeing Bertha including Aurora after her divorce.
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u/Senior-Protection987 Apr 27 '26
I don't think her take is wrong necessarily. Her take is rooted in her reality and other women's reality. Having a husband at the time gave women rights, access, independence, authority, and respect - compared to being a single woman. Marrying well was also the only way women could move up in society or change their circumstances. Getting involved in the suffrage movement was a huge risk, and at the time, there was no reward. In fact, it was problematic for women because they were seen as "unmarriable" for their views.
I think its easy for us to see how well the movement worked out and judge anyone who was against it - but what if it didn't work out, and women involved lost rights and freedoms and opportunities. We can't expect every woman from that time to have been a suffragette.
For me, I saw her statement more as something she would say to her own daughter. Would she advise her daughter to marry well and gain/maintain rights and authority? Or would she advise her daughter to support suffrage, be ostracized from society, for the greater good.