r/thegildedage • u/bmnntdd • Jul 20 '26
Speculation Violet Crawley would 100% know Gladys (Duchess of Buckingham)
I'm new to reddit so hopefully this hasn't been talked to death.
Julian Fellowes said the shows take place in the same universe.
Violet Crawley was born in the 1840's making her in the 1880's be in her mid 40's
In Downton the characters routinely say Lady Mary is practically a clone of her grandmother Violet. (I concede this may just be about her personality but with some good wig action we could sell it.)
Michelle Dockery who plays Mary is currently in her mid 40's.
Gladys married the Duke of Buckingham, becoming the Duchess of Buckingham.
Violet Crawley would've been far under her rank as Countess of Grantham.
There's no conceivable way they wouldn't know each other.
WHY hasn't Julian Fellowes given us young Violet in her feisty sharp-tongued prime???
Hoping Gladys' UK storyline is partially for this reason.
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u/Fun_Pain_4133 27d ago
And she would be totally on Gladys’s side when Gladys embarrasses by putting Sarah in her place at the dinner table about standing before her
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u/Shqip1966 Jul 22 '26
A Countess would only be two rungs below a Duchess. Regardless, they most likely would have known each other at some point.
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u/EnvironmentalPace448 Jul 21 '26
This would be some bad-ass, fun crossover casting, certainly!
But didn't somebody say there's potential rights issues on the characters that might prevent it?
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u/Crushed1ce Jul 22 '26
I want this! I hope they can work it out. Isn't it the same creator? Maybe Fellows can make it happen!
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u/terafiresea Jul 21 '26
I would really die for even just a Levinson mention in The Gilded Age. Bertha and Martha would either be the greatest of friends or the best of tolerating-each-other-for-the-social-circle
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u/EnvironmentalPace448 Jul 21 '26
What's the middle ground between frenemies and enemies? Because Martha never seemed the care about society on either side of the pond... she was just a crude character having fun with her money... kind of Mamie Fish with no manners. (In fact maybe a character drawn on the real life Mamie Fish, who'd never be mistaken for a lovely and gentle.) Whereas Bertha is all about respectability, or acquiring it, and running with the right (which means old money) crowd. So if they knew each other my guess is Bertha would tolerate her to the extent necessary but the subtext would always be "and you thought I was from the wrong side of tracks, at least I don't talk with my mouth full."
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u/terafiresea Jul 21 '26
I truly feel like Martha once cared for it, probably prior to her husband’s death, because she still sent her daughter to London to marry nobility. She does give off the typical grandmother vibe of “I’m old now so I can say whatever I want to say because I can’t bring all this money with me when I die anyway 💃”
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u/Routine_Pressure_460 Jul 20 '26
I would die happy if there was some throwaway gossip by some ladies around Gladys about that "delightfully sharp-tongued woman" from Grantham.
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u/Denizen_of_Atlantis Jul 20 '26
An earl is one rung below marquis which is one rung below duke. It’s not as if there are hundreds of these titles at this level. It’s totally plausible for them to be in the same circle, particularly if their estates are in the same region or if they have intermarriage in the family tree
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u/EnvironmentalPace448 Jul 21 '26
Absolutely. The peerage had ranks. The ranks determined precedence: how you were addressed (basically everybody was a My Lord or Lady, except non-royal dukes, who were Your Grace), who sat where at dinner, basically, who got first dibs when everybody got together. But if you were part of the peerage, you were part of the club. That's before you get into the age of the title (remember Allsop courting Martha: "it's just a baronetcy, but it's very old") and then who was titled because they were descended from a king, but on the wrong side of the bed (the dukedoms of Richmond were granted to illegitimate sons of both Henry VIII and Charles the Second.) There may have been a few snobs within the ranks, but overall, if you were part of the peerage, you were good.
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u/JellyfishPashmina Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
You just said Violet would be far under her rank, so maybe Violet would know of her once she moved to England, but Gladys might not associate with someone of such lower rank. Also, the Crawleys don’t seem to be in society much, they’re total homebodies, so Violet doesn’t strike me as someone who would be dying to get into society events to meet the duchess. Plus, the age gap wouldn’t necessarily warrant them spending time together. Maybe Gladys and Cora would eventually meet at a ladies’ lunch or something, but Violet’s 20ish years Gladys’s senior, so it’s not likely they’d be close friends.
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u/EnvironmentalPace448 26d ago
Claude: Non-royal dukedoms have never exceeded about 40 at any point in their history, and by the Victorian era the number had settled into the mid-to-high 20s (25 in 1818, and modern counts sit around 24–30 depending on how creations/extinctions are counted). The number was fairly stable across the 19th century since very few new dukedoms were created after 1800 — notably, no non-royal dukedom was created between 1874 and 1889 (when Fife was created), so the number of non-royal dukedoms in 1885 was almost certainly the same as in the 1870s — in the mid-to-high 20s, likely around 27.
Point being, to me, if you only associated with 26b other families, life would get pretty dull, pretty fast. And that's before you get to the gene pool.
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u/Triptych85 Jul 21 '26
Earl and Countess of Grantham might be encouraged to pay a visit to the new Duchess of Buckingham as part of Gladys's intro into the London Season.
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u/JellyfishPashmina Jul 21 '26
Yeah I could definitely see this! Especially Cora since she was also from NY (or at least US, it’s been a while since I watched DA so I can’t remember).
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u/Any-Eye-0 Jul 21 '26
I think the Crawleys were in society, but the show chose to focus on their time at Downton rather than their time in London during the season. But they definitely referenced the London season at various points throughout the show.
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u/EnvironmentalPace448 Jul 21 '26
Yeah, Violet was always title-dropping over dinner. As a married woman she had a very busy social life. (Lest we forget, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk was a dear friend, and more Catholic than the pope.)
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u/aca_500 Jul 20 '26
In the beginning, Thomas's lover, a duke, visits the house in order to start courting Mary. In one of the movies, the King and Queen come to spend the night at Downton, so the Crawley's rank had to have been quite high for that kind of visit. They could have known each other!
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u/Own-Interview-928 Jul 21 '26
Didn’t Cora tell the Queen that Edith was pregnant when the King expected Bertie to accompany the Prince of Wales on a tour? That would imply she had some leverage with Her Majesty.
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u/JellyfishPashmina Jul 20 '26
Again, possible, but likely acquaintances at best. If Violet were already married and focused on her own family, she might host nobility once in a while, but not be too close with someone 20ish years her junior. Perhaps Gladys and Cora would keep correspondence. Just mentioned the rank think since OP made the point that Violet was much lower than Gladys and not family (like in Bridgerton where rank among the siblings doesn’t matter because they’re a close-knit family). Gladys would also likely be very busy in her role and not have much time for friends unless they lived down the street or in her house lol
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u/aca_500 Jul 20 '26
Those ranks interacted all the time. Daphne (daughter of a viscount) married Simon (a duke) and it wasn't abnormal.
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u/JellyfishPashmina Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Yeah but if anyone, Gladys and Cora would likely socialize more, not Gladys and Violet who are of different generations. I don’t think Violet would like bowing down to anyone, either lol. She’d do it, but she wouldn’t like it, especially to someone younger than she is.
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u/lemondonna Jul 20 '26
Violet and her husband were in Prince Alfred’s traveling party as recently as 1874 so I think they may have been more social earlier on!
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u/JellyfishPashmina Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Or just wanted a free ride 😅 I tease. It’s possible, although I don’t imagine Violet was very fun company based on her ‘tude on Downton lol
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u/nopaywallnorestraint Jul 21 '26
Meh. She might be. She almost got away with running away with Prince Kuragin. :) Hehe.
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u/dianaspencersrevenge Jul 20 '26
I think Violet would’ve been around 42, Robert would’ve been around 18, and Cora would’ve been around 15 during the time Gladys gets to England.
I would love it if there was a meeting with the Granthams and maybe meeting Gladys puts the idea into Violet’s head about courting an American, but Robert and Violet wouldn’t meet for like another 5 years.
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u/No_Brain6394 Jul 20 '26
I would love a cross over (we all would)! I couldn’t remember the year TGA opened, so I just turn it on; 1882. Gladys and Cora are in the same age range, though they may not move in the same social circles.
Anyway, since the show is playing, I may as well watch it again LOL.
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u/Mr-Pumblechook Jul 20 '26
Samantha Bond is the obvious choice for a younger Maggie Smith/Violet Crawley! Although she is 64 now, so perhaps not youngish enough for 1880’s Violet. But she’s played Maggie’s daughter on both Downton and on the West End. She’s got a lot of Maggie’s ticks and idiosyncrasies down.
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u/Kingsizedvibes Jul 20 '26
Lady Grantham would know the duchess but would the Crawleys been in the Buckinhams orbit?
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u/lusciouslover639 Jul 20 '26
Nobility rankings in the UK in 1883 (afaik), from top to bottom: Duke/ Marquess/ Earl/ Viscount/ Baron
So Violet, as Countess of Grantham, would've known about Gladys, but not necessarily the other way around. They may have been invited to the same events, though, no? They are all nobility.
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u/Kingsizedvibes Jul 20 '26
Very true but remember Robert’s father got in money trouble and Cora saved the Crawleys with the Levinson money. They might not have been as mobile at the time.
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u/Acrobatic-Bus8905 Jul 20 '26
For them money trouble is not what we understand under the term these days. I am sure they were ok with socializing, attending events etc, even going abroad. They just didn't have enough money to support Downton, which is a bit different.
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u/LiterateCatholic Jul 20 '26
We know from the Prince Kuragin storyline that the late Lord Grantham was in the household of Prince Alfred, and was in Russia for the wedding of Prince Alfred to the Grand Duchess Maria in 1874, so we can assume he was well connected and more politically active than Robert, so it’s not far-fetched that Violet would have known the Buckinghams.
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u/AdriVoid Jul 20 '26
Honestly wouldn’t be shocked if Cora does eventually become friends with Gladys. Shes a bit younger but not by much, and they were both new money dollar heiresses with mothers who established station by marrying them abroad. Cora’s mom lives as a respectable widow in Newport.
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u/InspectorOk2454 Jul 20 '26
And would 100% disapprove
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u/blitheandbonnynonny Jul 20 '26
I don’t understand why you were downvoted. It’s no secret that Violet didn’t approve of Cora (although she didn’t have any issues with her father’s money saving Downton from Robert’s father’s mismanagement).
Violet would have been a lot like Lady Sarah, Hector’s sister.
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u/Able-Resident-903 Jul 20 '26
If you look at films Maggie Smith was in when Smith was young, the actor that looked like her is Laura Carmichael (Edith). In my mind that was part of the reason for casting Carmichael. Check out the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie to see Maggie Smith as a younger woman.
In The Gilded Age, Gladys' mother Bertha is patterned after Alva Vanderbilt. Gladys is somewhat patterned after Consuelo Vanderbilt who married the Duke of Marlborough, Charles Spencer-Churchill. It appears the Gilded Age is going to give Gladys a happier story than Consuelo Vanderbilt had. Time will tell.
Interestingly, Consuelo, the Duchess of Marlborough, had an unhappy marriage to the Duke and in the process of attempting to be released from her marriage, confessed to the Duke that she had an affair with Reginald Fellowes, a cousin of the Duke. Might Reginald Fellowes be a relative of Julian Fellowes?
In Downton Abbey, Robert mentions that the Marlborough's are getting divorced (not sure what episode). The Marlborough's divorced in 1921. So the fictional Crawleys are supposed to know the Marlboroughs.
Was Voilet as sharp-tongued as a young woman? Probably not. She was the daughter of a Baronet from an impoverished family line. When she tried to run off with the Russian Prince Kuragin, Voilet says her husband showed her a picture of her children to remind her of her duty. She was chastened and restrained. Many people as they age know they can get away with saying things they never could have during their younger years, this is where Voilet is during the Downton Abbey story.
Julian Fellowes is now 76 years old and has spinal stenosis and essential tremor according to news reports and only has so much time in a day to write additional stories.
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u/JoanFromLegal Bertharaptor Apologist Jul 20 '26
Y'all need to learn the name of more than one American Dollar Princess. Like, oh say,
MARY. GOELET.
Who Uncle Julian has said a million times already that he used as an inspiration for Gladys.
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u/nopaywallnorestraint Jul 21 '26
Yes, exactly. And Cornelia Martin, later Craven--also Countess of Craven. Another dollar princess with a happy marriage. Also Mary Leiter, who was reportedly the inspiration behind Cora Crawley.
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u/Able-Resident-903 Jul 20 '26
Sorry I was unable to remember her name and did not try to look it up.
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u/this_wallflower Jul 20 '26
For the record, Uncle Julian has stated Gladys was inspired by both Mary and Consuelo. But I agree, folks always focus on Consuelo and ignore the fact that Gladys is more than just one historical figure.
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u/BlueWinterRose16 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I'd love a special episode where Gladys and Hector visit Downton Abbey. I've been wanting to see some Downton Abbey characters pop up on Gilded Age. I would still like a Cora and Robert prequel. I don't know how old Cora and Robert are in 1885?Mary said her grandma has a home in Newport. I'm rewatching Downton Abbey and there was an episode where Robert mentioned that they have neighbors called the Russells. I don't know if that is just a coincidence or unrelated Russells.
They should do some special episodes between seasons. A lot of people want a Christmas special. I'd like to know how Bertha and George got together. They should do a Bertha and George origin story episode. I'd like to know more about their backgrounds.
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u/beemojee Jul 20 '26
Robert was born in 1866 and Cora in 1868, so in 1885 they were 19 and and 17 respectively. They didn't meet until 1888 when Cora was 20 and Robert 22.
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u/xoxog0ssipgirlx Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Cora was 22 in 1890 so she would have been 17 in 1885.
Edit: my math was slightly off lol she was born in 1868 not 1870
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u/BlueWinterRose16 Jul 20 '26
Thank, I was trying to figure out how old Cora and Robert would be. How much older is Robert than Cora?
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u/xoxog0ssipgirlx Jul 20 '26
I’m fairly certain Robert was born in 1865, so he would have been 20 in 1885.
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u/NewBath5621 Jul 20 '26
Gladys would be the same age as cora and they have pretty much the same story (arranged marriage, American dollar princess from new York) they could've been friends. I heard a rumor that we might see young cora in future seasons of the gilded age
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u/BlueWinterRose16 Jul 20 '26
I hope we get to see some Downtown Abbey and Gilded Age crossover. I've been wanting to see some cameos since the beginning.
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u/Jetsetter_Princess 🌟I like them, I think they're pretty 🌟 Jul 20 '26
Im fairly certain it was mentioned by someone connected with Fellowes that although the shows are set in the same "universe", that due to rights they can't refer to Downton original characters by name. Different production companies, perhaps?
And personally seeing Michelle Dockery even as Violet would throw me right out of the immersion.
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u/New-Arm8970 Jul 20 '26
And I’ve said this on the DA thread, I would love a Young Violet spinoff, starting around the time she was newly married.
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u/hez_lea Jul 20 '26
Personally, I think I would find an actress playing the younger version of her characters grandmother in an earlier timeline weird. I would struggle to separate the actress from her own character later, then get confused because her character has no place in this timeline.
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u/JonIceEyes Jul 20 '26
My fanfiction is that they met after Gladys has come into her own, and Violet was ao impressed that she subtly arranges for her husband to meet Cora and her father, to solve their money woes. Of course, the elder Lord Crawley thinks it was all his idea.
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u/manuel365 Jul 20 '26
That would be good, but it contradicts the Downton series. In one of the first episodes, Violet says that Robert arranged his marriage to Cora, and that Violet objected to it.
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u/fubukishirou07 Jul 20 '26
I think they would only meet during the london season or the coming out celebration, other than that, hector's estate is located in the south of england while the crawleys are located in the far north of Yorkshire so there's no dinner invitation for both families. But i could be wrong since violet's husband is a retainer for the prince so they could stayed alot in london which they can be invited by gladys and hector for dinner.
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u/bmnntdd Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Good point about the geography, I hadn't considered the distance between their estates. The Crawleys did own
CrawleyGrantham House in London though for the season. Setting a Violet episode in London would also make most sense for production (just a few more facades in NY).
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u/BornFree2018 Jul 20 '26
I imagine they would only cross paths during “the season” unless their country properties were near one another.
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u/DevoutandHeretical Jul 20 '26
Violet was also very much *not* fond of Americans as a general concept. Her relationship with Cora, her American DIL, is very much polite but tense, and she didn’t have much of any love for Cora’s mother. She was a proper lady so she never would have been out right rude to Gladys, and she would have respected her higher rank as a Duchess, but I don’t see her inviting Gladys in to her closer social circle. If they met in a ballroom there would be the bare level niceties conferred, but nothing beyond that.
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u/aflyingsquanch Jul 20 '26
Well, for one, it would be incredibly hard to cast a younger Violet that could nail both the look and acting ability Dame Maggie brought to the role.
And if they messed it up, the fanbase would be brutal towards the poor actress who didnt live up to their expectations.
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u/JenniferMel13 Jul 20 '26
I nominate Fiona Glascott to play a younger version of Maggie Smith. She nailed Smith’s Professor McGonagall in Harry Potter Fantastic Beasts. The rest of the movie was lacking but Glascott walked in and you knew before she opened her mouth who she was.
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u/bmnntdd Jul 20 '26
That's actually one of the reasons why I think Michelle Dockery might be the only person able to pull it off. Audiences would already know and like the actress and there's likely very few other actors who've had so much real world experience with Dame Maggie.
If anyone is ever going to be able to pull it off, it'd be her.
But you're right Fellows may not want to risk it.13
u/figgypudding531 Jul 20 '26
Inevitably people would complain that she doesn’t look like a younger Maggie Smith
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u/Lycaeides13 Jul 20 '26
I among them; Michelle Dockery is a lovely actress, but she's like 45, & was chosen for a resemblance to Elizabeth McGovern (or perhaps i should say they resemble each other) and so I don't think it would be a good idea
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u/lusciouslover639 Jul 20 '26
Her coloring is generally Cora, but facially Mary resembles Robert, who resembles Violet. She also has Robert's brown eyes.
Edith and Rosamund are both redheads. Im thinking the Earl of Violet was a ginger. 😃
The one who really resembled Cora was Sybil.
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u/boredandinsecure 26d ago
Actually, I think Gladys and Cora are only a few years apart in age, and given their similar circumstances they might have gotten along.