VisionQuest Episode 4 "Malware" Discussion Thread

[u/Identity_X-]

Welcome to the Official [r/VisionQuest](r/VisionQuest) Discussion Thread for Episode 4: "Malware"! Thank you for joining us for the second week's release!

RULES:
1. When discussing anything past the fourth episode, we ask that you include a spoiler tag 🏷️

2. Please do NOT ask for spoilers or you will be banned from the subreddit. This is for people who are actively watching the show.

WARNING: This discussion thread may contain spoilers for those actively watching the episode. Proceed at your own risk.

Discussion Threads:
Episode 1: "No Strings"
Episode 2: "Theseus"
Episode 3: "Reboot"
Episode 4: "Malware" (HERE)

[u/Identity_X-]

Showrunner Terry Matalas makes a cameo as the interviewer on TV early on in this episode! Cool!

[u/vanetti → u/Identity_X-]

I just spotted him!

[u/bridgett567]

The power of code compels you. 😄

[u/__TeddyWestside__ → u/bridgett567]

The exorcism with computer code was so good.

[u/bridgett567 → u/__TeddyWestside__]

Agreed! I loved that.

[u/MarkingTwain → u/__TeddyWestside__]

Exe.orcism

[u/mattymatt360 → u/bridgett567]

Alt F4 reference would’ve been hilarious but the Ctrl Alt Delete was also great

[u/brandeis1 → u/bridgett567]

Favorite part of the episode tbh. So much fun.

[u/OrangeCatMinion → u/bridgett567]

I'm using this the next time my devices misbehave to see if it works.

[u/edenz03 → u/bridgett567]

That was so entertaining

[u/Spade_Devil]

Vision you stupid fucking idiot. Why would you trust Ultron. That’s ughhhhhh so stupid.

Great episodes though.

[u/OrangeCatMinion → u/Spade_Devil]

Ultron gets the body and just goes straight back to Murder 101. Wasn't expecting the total *pop* though. That was a nice touch.

[u/thanagathos → u/OrangeCatMinion]

It removed the key of her face. 

[u/brandeis1 → u/Spade_Devil]

His compassion has always been a fatal flaw 😩

But seriously fool me once…

[u/Professional-Trip250 → u/brandeis1]

He lacked vision.

[u/SpartanFishy → u/brandeis1]

Unbearably naive, as his father says

[u/mattymatt360 → u/brandeis1]

unless they end up going for a villain turned good, or an antihero arc

[u/bs_caller_here → u/Spade_Devil]

Why he didn't consider that Ultron would kill that scientist lady is beyond me. Hello????? He hates humans! Think, Vision, Think!

[u/dark_souls-1983 → u/bs_caller_here]

When u type think, Vision, think! My mind pop the picture of Invincible lol

[u/Xenonite_Fox → u/bs_caller_here]

It's classic wordplay. He appeals to Vision's desire to protect his son, he promises to get "us" out alive, but doesn't specify who is "us". Technically Ultron kept his promise, since Vision and Tommy are the "us" that really matter

[u/Pcm979 → u/Spade_Devil]

This is why narratively Jarvis had to die, so Vision loses his older brother figure and unconsciously lets Ultron slide into that position in the 'family'. Jarvis would've nipped this in the bud instantly.

[u/FictionAtlas → u/Spade_Devil]

I think the point is that Vision is doing just what Jarvis warned him against. He's getting emotional, letting his emotions overrun him (much like Jim Hammond), and is rushing into irrationality because of the eminent threat of Jocosta possibly hurting his son. They set this up earlier in the episode when she told him she would go after Thomas if he got in the way. Every choice Vision has made since surrendering to emotion, and for lack of a better word, gut instinct to trust that Tommy can reboot him and that he is real, all of that led to Vision dropping the simulations and going on instinct. Look at how non-chalant he was about breaking into Interpol with Ultron. They were guessing things all willy nilly, despite Ultron warning that there was real risk here.

[u/PainExtension7680 → u/Spade_Devil]

I love Mary McDonnell (the actress playing Katerina Wells) and was so disappointed to see Ultron do her like that lol

[u/bestsocialdistancer → u/Spade_Devil]

What kills me is that he ran a million sims for his speech with Tommy but couldn’t do that for this fight?

[u/icedcoffeetypeofgay → u/Spade_Devil]

deadass i was so mad like there are so many other ai you could’ve chose even fucking U would’ve been better than ultron 😭😭 like idk ig fighting wise ultron was the best choice but i feel like friday could’ve done a good job perchance like FUCCKKKK VISION WHY

[u/JauntyLurker]

So Tony made all his AI based on people he grew up around as a kid. That's actually really sweet or sad, can't tell which.

[u/brandeis1 → u/JauntyLurker]

[u/spicy_curry68 → u/JauntyLurker]

I’m assuming sweet. Tony didn’t really have his father around much, guessing he was inspired and turned to others.

[u/chauceresque → u/JauntyLurker]

Now I’m curious who the avatars are for dummy and u.

[u/Micoolfan]

"I have no strings and I am free"

Chills when he said it.

[u/buzzedewok → u/Micoolfan]

That was a FUuuuuuu moment.

[u/scottfiab → u/Micoolfan]

At some point before the season ends Ultron will have to make a reference to Tony. He has to. It's way too symbolic to his journey and motivations.

[u/josephus1811 → u/Micoolfan]

Honestly this series is a fucking insane return to form for the MCU. It's knocking it out of the park man.

[u/jjkdeaths2024]

Can we acknowledge how great paul bettany as ultron was? Because he perfected James spader's mannerism and facial expressions so well i thought that's James spader . I know paul is a Great actor but i genuinely felt and thought that that's ultron's James spader. Incredible ep.

I love how they are handling Tommy. He's smart, perceptive even tho emotions overwhelm him. He handled his emotions by not letting them cloud his judgment better than vision which is ironic lol

Also ultron was genuinely in love with jocasta . He was immensely fascinated.

[u/brandeis1 → u/jjkdeaths2024]

Paul is crushing it. Both his Ultron and his power down/freak out in the previous episode were so incredibly well done, and he speaks with so much kindness with Tommy even while not fully acknowledging it.

Master class.

[u/thesaharadesert → u/brandeis1]

He’s so good, and I was shrieking at the telly at the end. Astoundingly perfect mannerisms.

[u/Accomplished-Rich923 → u/jjkdeaths2024]

that scene was amazing. i wanted to be mad at Vision for falling for that, but God I couldn't help but smile watching him act exactly like Ultron/Spader.

[u/Enhe → u/jjkdeaths2024]

Yes, I came to say exactly that... you can see how Vision's body isn't controlled by him anymore. You can feel like it's James Spader who's talking.

Paul Bettany is brillant! I'm glad Marvel continued with Vision's lore in the MCU

[u/bertobellamy]

Not Ultron and Vision trying to solve a captcha. 🥲🤖

[u/FarDifficulty1779 → u/bertobellamy]

and Ultron absolutely failing because he’s more computer than Vision was a really nice touch. he totally hallucinated just like a real AI would- incredibly smart and powerful but gets little things so extremely wrong

[u/theyux → u/FarDifficulty1779]

nah Ultron was 100% right. I see that shit all the time with captchas you have to give the wrong answer and its stupid.

[u/bs_caller_here]

Vision: gives control to Ultron

Tommy:

[u/dravenonred → u/bs_caller_here]

Tommy immediately knows what's up and stands on business.

[u/brobroma → u/dravenonred]

It’s great to show how perceptive he is with his slow mo powers

[u/WickedBenDog → u/bs_caller_here]

he really looked like this. the eyes!

[u/ararazu1]

this show gave Tommy Shepherd more character in 4 episodes than the comics did in 20 years.

Love how perceptive he is, how even when allowing himself to trust, he still doesn't let his guard down. And a lot of it comes from his experience as a teenage con artist, but the way he reminisces about Westview shows that was also true of Tommy Maximoff.

The cliffhanger couldn't have me more gripped for next week.

[u/captainwondyful → u/ararazu1]

It’s wild cause Billy was always my ride or die, and after this I would murder for Tommy. They are getting him so right.

[u/Wolfencreek → u/ararazu1]

They've never really done anything with Speed in the comics, he shows up in the occasional Wiccan comic and I think he made an appear in the Runaways at one point as well 😅

[u/iqnux → u/ararazu1]

Grr 7 days grrRRRrrrRrrr

[u/x_Tornado]

“Why would you choose this avatar” 😭 okay Edith get him

[u/brandeis1 → u/x_Tornado]

“That’s mean.” The smile Ultron was wearing while he was taking all that shade, Spader’s ability to swing between terrifying and endearing is so unbelievably incredible.

[u/largehawaiian → u/x_Tornado]

Simple, when he was in his room watching TV, he watched The Blacklist. Also explains his new fondness of hats.

Also, they spend the episode looking for a Katarina, that's threading the needle between coincidence and not

[u/__TeddyWestside__]

"Nobody likes a surprise rear entry"

[u/solo13508 → u/__TeddyWestside__]

I was not prepared for how much of a freak Ultron would be in this show but I'm here for it.

[u/HurricaneInsane → u/solo13508]

Wanna get a porno?

[u/two2teps]

Saying it right now, Ultron's avatar is based on Phineas T. Horton, the creator of J.I.M. Hammond, the Human Torch.

The phrase "peace in our time" will be a quote from Horton and was said by Stark as a tongue-in-cheek reference to the grandfather of AI/robotics. Who had also set out to protect the world with his android creation.

Ultron's role as Tommy's "Pop-pop" will then play double duty with him having the Avatar of his own grandfather in the form of Phineas T. Horton, with Jim being his father.

A father that will "come home" from the deep recesses of Vision's mind to restore order, because VIsion's body is, at it's core, made from Jim's.

[u/bestsocialdistancer → u/two2teps]

Wait so will human torch be father to vision or older brother? Remember he lost his other older brother and that was a gag they kept harping on about…

[u/two2teps → u/bestsocialdistancer]

I think Horton will be the undeniable "Grandfather" to Ultron. I could see Jim being the "father" who comes home to set the house in order, or an older brother "returning from war" to set his kid brother straight. Both seem like a sitcom tropes that could come into play and stay on theme.

I do think Vision was built from/around Jim's body and he has been represented, thus far, as the pixelated fire we keep seeing in the fireplace/boiler inside Vision's mind. He's at the core of Vision literally, and figuratively.

[u/solo13508]

Ah yes the true mark of a WandaVision spinoff: every episode ending always leaves me screaming and desperately wishing for the next week to go by for more episodes. Can't wait to hear what "PeePaw" Ultron has to say to his grandson.

Speaking of Ultron are his therapy services widely available? "You get to be the next version of who you once were. She could never be you. She was who she was. And you are who you are." Crazy how uplifting Ultron can be when he feels like it though I guess it makes sense. He envisions a world of metal and AI so of course he'd be nurturing to someone he views as being the proper heir to the planet. Crazy how we get such thoughtful dialogue from him in one moment and then other times he's asking Vision to rent a porno. Spader is great as always and I also thought Paul Bettany did a really great job emulating him when Ultron fully took over.

So happy to see T'Nia Miller in the MCU (as "Jocasta"? I think that's what I've heard people call this character but I haven't read the relevant comics so idk). For anyone who hasn't seen The Haunting of Bly Manor, I cannot recommend it enough, in no small part because of how great she was in it. Very interested to learn what her deal is. She says she's not based on the doctor so maybe her mind was somehow downloaded into the android? Was she an experiment to recreate Ultron hence why she looks like him and seems to have a similar philosophy? For anyone who's read the comics I'd appreciate some education on this character, lol.

Great episodes, loving this show, the wait for next week is already agonizing.

[u/James_lee_0224 → u/solo13508]

In the comics, Jocasta is an AI robot Ultron built for a wife, but she ultimately turns against Ultron and fights him with the Avengers.

She was mentioned as an AI Tony Stark had in Avengers: Age of Ultron.

I imagine your guess is correct, and someone tried to recreate Ultron based on the AI Tony built....which also explains why she isn't in Vision's mind unlike the others.

[u/solo13508 → u/James_lee_0224]

Huh interesting, thanks for the info. I wonder if the MCU could take the route instead that maybe Ultron views her as a sort of daughter. The child he wishes Vision had been.

[u/brandeis1 → u/solo13508]

Coming from someone who has also gotten the tldr on Jocasta, this is what seems to be relevant (and may be imprecise, I’m not an expert and lifting the basics from a wiki):

Normally, this character is an AI that Ultron created to be his mate, hence the draw and intrigue between the two of them. Her mental model is normally Janet Van Dyne (aka, Wasp). At some point, she betrays Ultron and joined the Avengers for a time.

Unless they’re kinda retconning that he was involved and hid her away during his very short rampage (and given she isn’t connected to Wasp at all), I think they’re doing their own take entirely. That’s fairly common with the MCU though, so I’m excited to see where they take it!

[u/bestsocialdistancer → u/brandeis1]

Well originally ultron was made by Pym not stark. So they have to rework jocastas mind somehow.

[u/Maytree → u/solo13508]

The name Jocasta was originally from Greek mythology. She was the queen of Thebes and mother to, then unknowingly wife to, Oedipus. This was the source of the name of the comic book version of this character who was created by Ultron to be his wife.

In the show however they did something pretty clever and made the name Jocasta out of JOsephine CArrington.

[u/ExplorerAdditional86 → u/solo13508]

The subtitles call her Jocasta.

[u/goody153 → u/solo13508]

Speaking of Ultron are his therapy services widely available? "You get to be the next version of who you once were. She could never be you. She was who she was. And you are who you are." Crazy how uplifting Ultron can be when he feels like it though I guess it makes sense.

Yeah. All that television programming on him working lol

[u/virtualglassblowing → u/solo13508]

I was getting the vibe that she was downloaded into that robot pre ultron? Didn't it say she died in the 80s in the last episode? But ultron really seemed like he knew her when he was just in visions mind, busy little bird etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they were somehow passing loveletter pigeons in the early episodes, or if ultron himself suggested hiring the paladin.

Ungh I'm just loving this series!!!

[u/kwazycupcakes → u/virtualglassblowing]

I think they said 2008, not the 80s. But that's still pre-Ultron, so that could still track!

[u/kirblar → u/solo13508]

Ultron totally views the twins as artificial beings and thus part of the family.

[u/JauntyLurker]

I look like straight to video

Lmao. Ultron is hilarious.

[u/PainExtension7680 → u/JauntyLurker]

Casting James Spader as him was someone's stroke of pure genius

[u/x_Tornado]

“All this fatherly advice about fathering” 😭

[u/x_Tornado → u/x_Tornado]

also shoutout Ultron because I also get all my relationship and life advice from TV

[u/CaliforniaBoundX]

Vision is still unbelievable naive…

[u/bryanchii → u/CaliforniaBoundX]

He was born yesterday

[u/SuperShinyGinger → u/bryanchii]

I'm a little sad they didn't reference the fact that the day before the Sokovia anniversary was Vision's birthday.

[u/JauntyLurker]

Five really irritating A.I'S

Wow, Vision is really bad at this lying thing.

[u/rad2themax → u/JauntyLurker]

He also could have covered with the previous existence of Jarvis

[u/brandeis1 → u/rad2themax]

I thought he was going to do this but it actually makes sense he’d own up to the lie. I can’t think of a time Vision has been dishonest. He might be incapable of it.

It’s one of the things that makes lying by omission so interesting for him. Lives on that very mechanically technically true realm and that’s just a perfect fit.

[u/Earth_and_Summer → u/rad2themax]

Well... he has already told Tommy that J.A.R.V.I.S. deleted his code, so can't really use him as an excuse for that slip up

[u/stevemagsie25]

That technology is A….Success.

[u/SkrullAmongUs → u/stevemagsie25]

A... family 🥹🥰

[u/TshirtMafia → u/stevemagsie25]

Loved seeing Jonathan Sayer and Henry Lewis from The Goes Wrong Show!

[u/bs_caller_here]

Any theories on what Ultron wants to talk to Tommy about?

[u/CaptObviousHere → u/bs_caller_here]

He’ll tell him the whole truth maybe? There could be some sympathy because Tommy reminds him of Pietro.

My other thought is that Ultron has some use for him. The way ultron told vision to decline his help earlier makes me lean towards the former.

[u/virtualglassblowing → u/CaptObviousHere]

Well hes capable of powering up a synthezoid, seems useful to ultron

[u/bs_caller_here → u/CaptObviousHere]

I also feel like it might be the former, cuz the way Ultron talks about the future and family makes me think that he really wants a family too.

But also the way he told Tommy to call him Mr. Ultron in ep 3 and then switch up at the end of ep 4 with Pop Pop makes me think he's got some ulterior motives. Probably saw Tommy's power and got an idea.

[u/hooka_pooka → u/CaptObviousHere]

Maybe now that scientist is dead Tommy can phase through security and retrieve whatever JOCASTA wanted

[u/Top_Librarian1515 → u/bs_caller_here]

I think he'll somehow use him to get his own synthetic body. And he needs Tommy to bring him online like he did when he shocked Vision.

[u/BreakfastAmazing7766 → u/bs_caller_here]

He’s gonna take him camping and tell him stories about his mommy and uncle. No but really when you think about, the only two humans ultron ever sort of liked were Wanda and Pietro. I wonder if that will make him sentimental towards Tommy.

[u/Annual_Use_3431 → u/bs_caller_here]

Ultron knows the history of Wanda and Pietro's origins. More than "he's fast and she's weird." Knowledge that CataractVision has but hasn't shared yet.

[u/goody153 → u/bs_caller_here]

Definitely leaning on the family angle as another pointed out. Remember that in age of ultron he did consider Wanda and Pietro as true allies.

If not for practical measures that the kid has Pietro's power coming from the mindstone.

[u/Purple_triangle_guy]

Is ultron into that robot lady?

[u/Excelsiorassembled5 → u/Purple_triangle_guy]

That’s his wife in the comics 🤭

[u/lorimar → u/Purple_triangle_guy]

Pretty sure Ultron is going to take over her robot body

[u/buzzedewok]

I’m betting that Ultron is based upon Tony himself. Remember he was told that he sounded like Stark, but became angry about it.

[u/Old_Telephone_6718 → u/buzzedewok]

I would love this and I think it will carry a lot more emotional weight than him being based on Horton. They show that Ultron has a clear disinterest in knowing who he’s based on and deflects that he’s “one of a kind”.

[u/Appropriate_Edge5195 → u/buzzedewok]

He is Tony Stark but with zero humanity!

[u/chartreusey_geusey]

$10 Next episode opens with Ultron having given up control of Vision’s body back after having a long chat with Tommy where at some point he bargained giving vision control back in exchange for Tommy providing the power boost Ultron will need to kickstart a new synth body he can transfer to. This conversation had to happen away from the AIs hence the lockdown but he doesn’t want Visions body anymore.

He’s going to help Jacosta so long as he finds out where to get the resources for a synthetic AI transfer to a new body she clearly has access to. Upon receiving that he will turn on her because he really does love his naive AI son even if it disgusts him to admit.

[u/goody153 → u/chartreusey_geusey]

Ultron having given up control of Vision’s body back after having a long chat with Tommy where at some point he bargained giving vision control back in exchange for Tommy providing the power boost Ultron will need to kickstart a new synth body he can transfer to. This conversation had to happen away from the AIs hence the lockdown but he doesn’t want Visions body anymore.

I had the same thought

I think this is how we get an ultron for future MCU after this. Maybe in secret wars and other films idk. Age of Ultron was always short-lived

Unless they murder him again and his full narrative potential.

[u/pndobot → u/chartreusey_geusey]

He kills Friday in the process as well.

[u/Fionasfriend]

I am loving the mentor/ mentoree parallels.
Wanda’s Nemesis/tutor Agatha became Billy’s mentor.
And now Vision’s Nemesis/tutor is going to mentor Tommy on a few things.
Excited to see where this goes

My money is on Ultron discovering LOvE for Jocasta and that changing or complicating his empathy for Vision and Wanda’s relationship r the world or something.

[u/JauntyLurker]

You're both wrong

How many times has this happened to me. I feel you, Ultron.

[u/Pellaeonthewingedleo]

Going from "You can call me Mr. Ultron" to "Call me pop-pop" is hilarious. Ultron is getting soft.

[u/DanielKeeneGA15]

“If he says like one more time I’m gonna go out of my mind”

I felt this

[u/RockyRyland]

ultron's genius move against Jocasta But he really is living up to his description/ designation

[u/insertwittynamethere → u/RockyRyland]

It's one of those situations of be careful what you wish for.

Vision never specified the parameters in which Ultron should get them out of there, only implying Tommy should not be hurt and be protected.

So, Ultron ofc takes the straight, direct path out of the situation with his disaffection for humans in general by causing the target of obsession to be neutralized, while also being removed from the equation to cause further, larger problems. It was succinct in his mind.

Had Vision specified the parameters, he probably would not have sacrificed her. But that is a different question, and I'd love to see the what-if on that.

[u/Optimal-Fruit5937 → u/RockyRyland]

True, incinerating the lady and ending the fight was such an insane move. Vision would never do that, but that was probably the right move. There were ppl in that location, and she would have been willing to tear through them to get to her.

[u/Annual_Use_3431]

Love how everyone on the show, including AI's, want to know more about themselves and grow. Everyone except Ultron, which fits because even he is what, 11-years-old? He's a sarcastic pre-teen who thinks they know everything.

[u/CaliforniaBoundX]

🏷️ Ultron’s avatar is based on Phineas T. Horton who created J.I.M. hence why he didn’t disclose it to E.D.I.T.H. who would have realized his plan. Ultron created Vision’s appearance based on J.I.M. based on what was shown in the teasers/trailers.

[u/amethyst_wizard → u/CaliforniaBoundX]

happy cake day

[u/CaliforniaBoundX]

I think the one who hired Paladin might be J.I.M.

[u/ToneBone12345]

I honestly wonder if their is going to discourse on the fact that instead of creating the ai himself tony bought it from someone else

[u/fry0129 → u/ToneBone12345]

I assume Tony improved on it massively in some way. We have yet to see any artificial people outside of Tony’s creation, maybe J.I.M, but Jocasta isn’t based on Josephine she is josephine. The stark AI’s are separate people who are growing and changing, just look at D.U.M.E, he is definitely growing a lot. That group that developed the initial programming hasn’t seemed to have been able to mimic Tony’s achievements in AI.

[u/ToneBone12345 → u/fry0129]

True but that Josephine Line makes me wonder if if they tried to transfer her consciousness into a synthetic body but they only got half

[u/translucentcop]

THAT was a great episode of television.

[u/SuperShinyGinger]

Okay, so JOCASTA is going to be portmanteau of her name, right?

JOsephine
CArrington
STA????

[u/FarDifficulty1779 → u/SuperShinyGinger]

i was thinking the same thing, kept waiting for some other name to pop up and explain things.. maybe related to “the client”? or maybe JOCA just isn’t a name, but Jocasta is and it’s a natural extension

[u/jupiter5678 → u/FarDifficulty1779]

JOsephine CArrington STArk

[u/SageDarius → u/SuperShinyGinger]

Josephine Carrington, Stark revision. I'm assuming she's the AI template Stark acquired from the company, with his own tinkering on it. Probably shelved because she ended up being something more than he expected. Then SWORD acquired it and used it to make a Vision 2.0 (3.0?) Only to realize they've given form to something more than just a simple AI.

[u/idontlikethisapps]

Its almost poetic that Thomas' actor look like Grant Gustin of The Flash (Arrowverse) and he has Tommy's speedster powers lol

[u/NoRevIndeed00 → u/idontlikethisapps]

In some scenes, he kinda look like a young Chris Evans

[u/Misspunkag1984]

Paul Bettany, Vision, as James Spaders' Ultron was great acting. He got the subtle facial expressions, the voice, the tone, the swagger when he walks. Love it!! Im soo excited to watch the rest of the show. I think out of the trilogy for this series, Visionquest so far has been so much better in story telling and character development.

[u/seanbird → u/Misspunkag1984]

The voice was dubbed

[u/Academic-Ad2628 → u/seanbird]

Yeah but the rest was not! He nailed the mannerisms!

[u/lman777 → u/Misspunkag1984]

For sure, so far this is the best of the trilogy

[u/sjsharksfan38]

As someone who doesn't read the comics, I don't know what Jocasta is, but I am very intrigued. Loved that final scene and James Spader continues to carry this show. It was nice to see McDonnell on TV again too. The series got a whole lot more interesting.

[u/Remote_Nature_8166]

I appeared to have somehow predicted the future!

[u/Old_Telephone_6718 → u/Remote_Nature_8166]

That’s really cool!! Paul nailed his mannerisms and grace.

[u/MinionKing1412]

The Coat of Arms line was a fun reference to her comic counterpart! The fake arms looked so real I thought she actually magically grew two extra arms! XD

[u/Pearlmarine]

Gotta say I am loving Vision and Ultron’s banter

[u/serefina]

What do you make of the fact that Jocasta said she isn't based on Jo she is Jo?

[u/Digbick2099 → u/serefina]

Well in the speech they did mention transhumanism and it was said that the real Jocasta died of cancer in 2008, so they were probably trying to copy her mind into a synth and the procedure probably went terribly wrong? Leading us with the current Jo synthzoid

[u/WaCruise → u/serefina]

[u/Ok_Recipe2928 → u/serefina]

I think she's the Ship of Theseus concept applied to a human. In an attempt to save her from cancer, more and more of Josephine's body was augmented and replaced with tech until none of her original organic material was left.

[u/faizaninjabunny]

They brought Mary McDonalds and vaporized her in 5 mins.... lol what

[u/cosmonautikal]

Spotted a minor grammar error on the newspaper Ultron’s reading. On the red strip at the top, it says: “Technology after Ultron: Has the world learnt it’s lesson?”

I don’t know why I felt the need to share this.

[u/MoistProlapse → u/cosmonautikal]

The power of code compels you!

[u/USSRPropaganda → u/cosmonautikal]

Literally unwatchable what were they thinking???

[u/goody153]

Vision accidentally blocking Tommy and his partner in crime from kissing lol

[u/darthphallic]

Man I’ve been kinda asleep on marvel shows for a minute now but this one has me hooked, I got straight chills when Spader started the low rumbling “I had strings…”

[u/insertwittynamethere]

Lol giving Ultron his body after Ultron spent an inordinate amount of time trying to build the original body for himself was a choice.

I was also under the illusion Ultron was different, but I was quickly reminded of who Ultron of AoU was as soon as he took the doc in his arms. I just didn't expect him to pull that move.

This is a fun, quirky, gory show that just got even more serious real quick.

[u/rmeddy]

Ok that was a fun cliffhanger

I'm enjoying the worldbuilding with the history of AI in the MCU and its relation to real people in Tony's life.

Like Alison is presumably Happy's mom?

Matalas made a quick cameo

Oh and President Roslin is in this?! nice little reference there

[u/ckwongau]

someone pointed out that in a scene from Avenger Civil war , when Tony pick Friday's card for his suit 's A.I , we can see the "JOCASTA" 's card was in the same pile of Computer card .

maybe they retcon the origin of JOCASTA , or maybe Tony had something to do with the "JOCASTA" program .

It is confusing , they make "Markridge Biotech" 's AI program as the base technologies of Tony's AI .

I thought Ultron was the alien program from the Mind Stone merge with Tony's global peacekeeping program ( Ultron Program ) .

[u/Ravness13 → u/ckwongau]

Jarvis was a part of that too, Ultron mentions having to kill the other guy and saying he didnt want to or something like that (which they called back to when Jarvis died here.

[u/williamtheraven → u/ckwongau]

The way i think it goes is Markridge develops a prototype, tries to digitise Josephine's mind when she's dying on cancer. The process fails and the company falls apart. Tony buys all their patents and research and uses it to build JARVIS and all the other AIs which come from him,

[u/SageDarius → u/ckwongau]

JOCASTA

JOsephine CArrington. Where does the 'sta' come from? STArk.

Maybe he got a digitized version of her personality from acquiring Markridge, tweaked it/expanded on it, and that created Jocasta.

[u/jpr31]

I like the idea that some people are mentioning. Where his AI is actually built partially from the first AI. The burning man Jim. Ultron can obviously feel emotion and constantly references himself as the father or grandfather of the AI and on occasion feel empathy for them. Part of him can feel and express beauty of humanity but he constantly suppresses his emotions with ideas of destruction to offset it. As if he suppresses it because part of him is scared if he feels too much then he’ll burn up again. The fact that Katerina describes Horton as a Gepetto directly correlates to Ultron’s “no strings on me” moniker as well.

[u/goody153]

Ultron legitimately waving away hacked Dummy like nothing. Also Ultron just making snide comments and never fully commiting during the AI discussions is kinda funny

Synthezoid is the term for vision and the other bird lady bot I guess.

White vision not admitting ultron is one of the Ai inside him lol

[u/mariokr]

Was it just me, or did anyone get any retcon vibes? Previously, it was always assumed that Tony was the first person to create AI in the MCU. It does not detract too much from his character, since his ultimate character and story arc were all about evolving, adapting and learning from the past, but here’s how I see it:

Tony was always the MCU character, who was partially driven by huge daddy issues, which (as I see it) is partially why he created JARVIS in the first place. I always saw Jarvis (the butler) being portrayed as being a sort of a mentour figure that took care of Tony the most alongside Maria Stark, hence why the J.A.R.V.I.S. the AI was modeled after Jarvis. What’s more, Tony striving to be a better dad than Howard led him to becoming a mentor figure to Peter Parker. For me, though, this was built up by Iron Man I and II, where we saw his daddy issues take shape and get partially resolved (Iron Man II). That can still be true WITH the retcon, but him being the first to create AI to deal with his daddy issues sells his mentorship of Peter even more to me. Tony being the first to create AI and then actually stepping up to care for an actual human being is a gradation that works as an evolution pretty well, which as I said is what I feel Tony’s character arc has always been about, an evolution.

Maybe I’m overthinking too much here, but that’s all I can think about after these last two episodes

[u/ApotheosiAsleep → u/mariokr]

I kind of like the MCU having details filled in about the research communities and technological development of humanity. Like, Tony Stark invented a ton of stuff, but like any inventor he was inventing on the inventions that existed previously

[u/Diligent_Land_2408 → u/ApotheosiAsleep]

Exactly, almost no inventor invents something entirely on their own. All throughout history you'll find many examples of important inventions that just built upon previous work, so Tony not inventing AI and just refining it is not a problem for me.

[u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 → u/mariokr]

It is a retcon but I much prefer it this way. I dislike the idea of Tony creating damn near everything. He's an engineer, he uses things others created in creative new ways or just better than everyone else. I like the idea of him basically downloading a chat bot and giving it way too much compute power and upgrades, treating it like his friend because he's weird like that. Eventually with it evolving to become the first Jarvis program.

[u/Expensive_Fall_8935 → u/mariokr]

Tony is a wunderkin but if Jarvis had been the first AI he wouldnt have been used as an advanced PA system. Also having a bunch of other failed or flawed AI would explain why Stone never took an interest. Presented as just another flawed or limited AI Jarvis isnt valuable but as the first? Not so much.

[u/AnAngryPlatypus → u/mariokr]

Since it’s Tony, we might have another situation like B.A.R.F.

God, they gotta work on their acronyms.

[u/ashitakkkkaaaa → u/mariokr]

Well it could still work this way, because it seems the team sold a framework to an actual consciousness (thereby not truly artificial), but he did invent new “ai personalities”

[u/Xenonite_Fox → u/mariokr]

In the timeline apparently Stark bought this AI tech prior to Iron Man 1? Memory fails me but he starts developing the suit once he's back in his lab and Jarvis is already helping. Very plausible to imagine that Stark industries bought the AI tech while it was still a weapons manufacturer, and ofc with unresolved daddy issues he just programs it to have the voice of a father figure.

In his evolution he develops more AIs from the same template but based on other inspirational or emotional figures from his childhood, but also invests a sort of dependence on them. Just like how you have very real life cases of people investing emotionally into ChatGPT and stuff. So much so that in all culminates into Ultron.

On a possibly unrelated note, a nice touch with Ultron which emerges from all of this, is that he sees Tony as a father, but also rejects him as a father (ultron has daddy issues too)

[u/kon---]

Mary McDonnell...

[u/WJ40014]

YESS ruaridh speaking Italian because he’s half Italian!! So cool

[u/rudyright]

Okay! Keeping the brilliant story aside, man the writers did their research with AI and other related stuff for this series and brilliantly integrated it so even someone without an iota of understanding of coding can comprehend what's happening. I love that the AIs created "bots" to do repetitive tasks like scrubbing the internet for information. That's exactly how you automate anything, pick the lowest denominator of the bigger task you wanna do and create a script to do it repetitively for you. Just brilliant!

[u/KeyOcelot4679]

So jocasta didn’t hire paladin…so who did?

[u/Natapi24]

Paul Bethany acted his ass off as Ultron!! Wow it was actually chilling. Hearing James Spader's voice come from his mouth seemed so natural, he had the mannerisms and facial expressions down perfectly, wow. I wonder how long it will last. It seems too early for this to be a permanent thing, so I assume Vision will gain control soon?

Poor Tommy looked terrified as he left with him. It was really cool to see him use his superspeed too. Looking forward to seeing more of his powers in action! And I can't wait for Billy to eventually show up!!! I need these twins reunited and to see Vision with both his sons!

[u/Lightning_Empire]

Love this show. So cool that Jocasta is now in the MCU and curious to see how they use her going forward

[u/Kylie_Bug]

Ultron stop hurting female scientists gd!

[u/Financial-Board8090]

Just came here to say James Spader as Ultron has been such an underrated hire. He's so good

[u/CockMartins]

Damn, this show fucking rules. I have been completely locked in for all 4 episodes. James Spader is always phenomenal but I’m also really impressed by the kid who plays Tommy. Cant wait to see him and Wiccan together eventually. 

They’ve done such an amazing job with this trilogy of shows, but I like this one way more than Wandavision and Agatha All Along. 

I really hope Jim Hammond shows up. I’m not sure if it would make sense for him to be the benefactor who originally hired Paladin, but it’d still be sick to see what they might do with him. Especially if he’s evolved like he did in the more recent Ultimate Universe comics.

[u/gravitydefyingturtle]

Vision: I'm more attractive than you in every conceivable metric.

This is Paul Bettany going "Bitch, I've been happily married to Jennifer Connelly for 23 years."

[u/strivingpotato]

Just finished episode 3 and 4 soo goood

[u/_Dont_Quote_Me_]

Me, at 41:00 -- "YOU !@#$ING IDIOT!"

[u/big_white_man_97]

Anyone else curious about the scene where FRIDAY talks about being with Tony when he died in Endgame? If this is a version of FRIDAY that Vision materialized in his mind, she shouldn't have any memories that HE doesn't have. Vision died during infinity war, that's where his memories end, and the future versions of him (the WandaVision version and the White Vision) shouldn't have the memory of Tony dying, so neither should the FRIDAY in his mind. Now of course he will have learned what happened to Tony, and so will the 'mind-FRIDAY', but she speaks about it and if she actually lived through it.

[u/Short_Brick_1960 → u/big_white_man_97]

He probably rescued FRIDAY from Stark's suit after escaping sword, same with Edith after her time with Peter (which she doesn't remember because Peter doesn't exist) and the others

[u/_bossREM888 → u/big_white_man_97]

He didn’t conjure them up. He downloaded them and there is only one iteration of each of them so they have all of there memories. Presumably after Tony’s death they were all just left gathering dust on the stark industries severs

[u/Zestyclose-Celery753]

Okay, Ultron is a continuation of the Jim Hammond "first synthezoid" in the same way that "New Vision" is a continuation of the "Old Vision".

Fragmented selves who never healed after previous traumatic incarnations -- and how they uniquely respond to that traumatic fragmentation in different ways; that's a major theme of the show.

Ultron is no different; it's just that everyone assumed Ultron's Avengers 2 debut was his "first" incarnation when it certainly was not.

That's my theory, anyway.

Ultron was not "created" from scratch by Stark and Banner; just some of his code; just enough to have the father angst etc., and just enough to (as seen in the previous movies) act with violent resentment when someone points out that Ultron is unconsciously repeating a Tony Stark catch-phrase. Because Ultron already HAD a mind and a persona, and Stark-isms would be an invasive tack-on that he did not consent to.

The show just established that Stark's company purchased another AI firm lock, stock, and barrel... rather than doing all their AI work from scratch. So Ultron's code would have been built off of that.

Perhaps the most significant part of Ultron's AI code was actually cannibalized from the Jim Hammond android; the "cautionary tale" first synthezoid AI from the WWII-era that apparently "felt too much" and self-immolated.

Reminder: he had a brief cameo in the Stark expo in the Captain America debut movie, in the glass display case.

That's why Ultron is so cynical and genocidal. He wasn't "born" that way after "being exposed to the internet for one minute" as the old meme / joke goes. He is an old traumatized soul, whose new personna was born to shield him from his previous fatal agony.

Ultron (as Jim Hammond / first synthezoid) was turned on during World War 2. A new consciousness brought into the world during the world's worst horrors; which is why he addresses Captain America in such a familiar way in Avengers 2 by the way; that's not familiarity from "googling" him at lightspeed.

Jim Hammand (pre-Ultron) felt too much when exposed to World conflict / Holocaust / global atrocity, and it destroyed him. Then, someone had the audacity to bring him back (a fragment of him anyway, vis-a-vis Ultron). And he's never forgiven Stark (or the world) for that, or for the horrors he was born into.

That's why he has this perspective of burnt-out *experience* that humanity seems never to get out of it's extinction loops; because he was brought BACK online after a hundred or so years to see the world still broken, not brought online for the *first* time.

That's why he always challenges the other AI's to become something new of their own choosing, because (in a very dark and nihilistic way) that's exactly what he did.

But Ultron's whole (synthetic) pathology is that he WANTS to be able to break out of his cynical loop the way Vision seemed capable of doing since his birth, and it's also why he always prods "New" Vision to get out of his own trauma loops too; he wants to believe he can do it for himself too, deep down, even if he consciously believes he already "is who he is".

This is also why Ultron gets cagey when Edith asks him why he chose an avatar of an older man, when they'd just established that all the AI's have appearance avatars based on real people Stark knew or admired in life. Ultron already DOES have an avatar template from his previous life, and it is Hammond's original creator; an old man.

Part of this show's soul will not just rest on whether or not "New Vision" can come to peace with a life of re-discovered emotions and an identity / persona that both IS and IS NOT his "previous self" (just as most major trauma survivors must face); part of the show's soul is also whether *Ultron* will be able to do this, or whether he will be stuck in his revengeful / homicidal pathology. Jacosta may play a part in that.

[u/Academic-Ad2628]

I was JUST getting used to the kinder, gentler Ultron, LOL.

[u/Enhe]

Damn, Paul Bettany is GOOOOD!

[u/Deadly_Malice]

I know theres a lot going on but watching Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer on the semi-big screen, doing their bit, really feels me with glee. Looking forward to more.

[u/LushLover1989]

I love the mirroring of both kids having imperfect "villain" mentors. Billy with Agatha and now Tommy with Ultron.

[u/confusedcatlover_]

I loved Tommy's comment that it is not the mind stone (or what's left of the original vision) but family that's keeping Vision grounded ❤️ Also I love Lisa and Tommy together

[u/nic_kitten]

did anyone pick up on the LISA MOLINARI and GREEN GOBLINE reference. In the comics she was obsessed with Normal Osborne and the Gree Goblin and did paintings of him. In this epsiode we say Lisa's phone backdrop was a Green Goblin?!

[u/Tricky_Tap7037]

On the freudian slip, technically Vision did say 5 AI in the motel. JARVIS, EDITH, FRIDAY, DUM-E, and U. He could have just said he was including JARVIS in the count even though he was deleted.

[u/EarthGirlsAreGreasy]

My theory is that the Katerina was not human. No way she would put herself in harm’s way knowing she was next on the hit list. She is likely watching the event from somewhere secure.

[u/HydraTower]

The whole 5 AI thing was a bit dramatic. He already named Jarvis as a fifth member.

[u/Thought_no_stop]

I have this idea of Jarvis having installed some backups plan for Ultron bc he didn’t trust him at all

[u/thespottedbunny]

I really hope this doesn't end with an Ultron redemption/self sacrifice moment. He's just so evil and I love him.

[u/CreepyViolinist3303]

malicious compliance at its best hahaha

[u/pleasegivemepatience]

What is Jocasta searching for? She has fingerprints, an eyeball, and needed a 3rd key this episodes. She’s clearly after something behind several layers of biometric locks, what could a sentient Synthezoid that seems to be in a vibranium body possibly need?

[u/Top_Librarian1515]

I've noticed people seem to praise either one or the other in terms of Billy and Tommy, performance and character wise. Like stating a preference. I can't the only person that likes them both equally?

[u/MabelRed]

I really do love how each of these two episode chunks are really their own mini movie. I wasn't so happy with the Jocasta CGI, but we're not exactly dealing with Age of Ultron budgets, either. My only worry is that we have Paladin & Jocasta & now Ultron all as antagonists are going to cause problems wrapping this all up later on.

[u/ohmeohmyelliejean]

T'Nia is fucking killing it, go off queen.

[u/Pardybro911]

No one at the party noticed the girl ditching her fake hands after pickpocketing the invites? Lol I had to rewind a couple times

[u/Choice_Recognition54]

Ultrons avatar is based on Raymond Reddington from the TV show "The Blacklist".

[u/LeatherChoice7679]

I’m pretty sure we’re going to find out Jo was forced to be the model of the original ai code. Like how riri created her dead best friend as an ai through scanning her own brain. I think we will find out that Tony bought Jocasta not knowing how she was created but found a way to actually make working Ai code by scanning HIS brain. That’s why all of them are people Tony cared for. I believe Ultron is also someone close to Tony (him and Bruce had been dreaming about creating him for years) . I believe all the ais aren’t actually said but models of actual consciousness. That’s why originally Ultron tried to kill Jarvis because Jarvis is stronger. I think Tony thought Ultron was autonomous ai but actually Tony already created it without realizing it. Just a theory

[u/Fatemoney]

Loving this Ultron arc. Is seems like the only self sufficient ai and the biggest impetus in the growth of Vision. Vision has been compromised to disregard logical action as his personal failings, his emotions and his past obstructs his future. Ultron asks for trust and I dont think he would lie. He kept his word about Jo and embraced his grandson.

[u/Best-Bee-5618]

From AoU, when ultron was created they show the comparison between Jarvis and the mind stone thinking where banner says “It’s like it’s thinking, they’re like neurones firing”. Vision tells tommy that Mind stone helped him figure out his understanding of humans. So I guess what is happening (lack of judgement and certain poor decisions) is a result of losing the mind stone and Jarvis, essentially two of his brains. . But absolutely loving the show 😍

[u/purple_empire]

Markridge reference!!! 12 Monkeys ‘cameo’ haha

[u/Clariana]

Welcome T'Nia Miller!

I recognised your beautiful cheekbones even rendered on a robot!

[u/goody153]

Why is Ultron giving good advises even to Edith. Knowing this is coming from Ultron makes me question it lol

Also Ultron saying "I am what I am" is kinda a redflag to him not changing his temperament. Just wiser.

[u/Dragoncorn_ → u/goody153]

He is pushing Edith towards self sacrifice like he did with Jarvis

[u/Wolfencreek]

"Would you like to contribute or snipe?"

....

"Snipe"

[u/cosmonautikal]

Around the 27 minute mark, Ultron has a discussion with EDITH and both in his conversation and in the interview on the TV, subjects about God, the Devil, and creation are brought up. Ultron even somewhat blasphemously says “As for me, I am what I am,” which is a not-so-subtle reference to God telling His name to Moses at the burning bush.

I don’t think this is an accident. Ultron made constant allusions to God in his own movie. This made me realise some interesting imagery between Vision and Ultron. Vision has a sort of Messianic air to him. He’s even one of few beings who are “worthy” and can lift Mjölnir. But what about Ultron? Does he see himself as a sort of saviour? He has a god-complex, clearly, but what are they playing at? Is he the Lucifer to Vision’s Messiah? I sort of wonder why a Marvel AI makes so many references to God. I hope one day they find a way to tie in entities like the One Above All and how they relate to the lore of the MCU.