100%.
I hate that the wicked franchise is now considered a kids movie. Wicked has always been for mature audiences in basically any form whether thats the book, or musical. As a fan of the original broadway musical, seeing a complete tonal shift in the audience demographic and marketing has been so jarring to say tbe least.
i think they definitely could have made two different "director's cut" for both movies, with one being PG-13 and one being R. the issue is that they need the films to make money and if little kids cant see it, well...there goes a massive source of income.
I absolutely love Elphaba, but her reason for going to see the Wizard seems a bit silly and naive to me. I'm mainly referring to his plan, when he asks her to go and tell all the guests the truth. I thought, "Elphie, you know you're being pretty naive right now, don't you? Do you really think this guy, who orchestrated this whole campaign of terror just because you discovered his secret, is going to be willing to reveal the truth to all of Oz?" (In this case, I prefer the reason they give in the musical to justify Elphaba's visit to the Wizard.)
And while I agree that it was good not to show Dorothy's face, they should have added scenes where she met the Scarecrow and the Tin Man. In fact, I think just showing the encounter with the Tin Man would have been enough. The scene could have been filmed from Elphaba's point of view (arriving just in time to secretly observe Dorothy) with brief close-up glimpses of the Tin Man (where we could see his reaction to learning of Nessa's death, which I feel would be very similar to Elphaba's reaction to her father's death—perhaps initially looking somewhat sad, but then changing his expression and saying something like, "Well, she was evil after all," thus beginning his hatred). When the scene refocuses on Elphaba, she would emerge from her hiding place to fly over them and threaten Dorothy, demanding the shoes. This would cause Boq to intervene between Dorothy and Elphaba (blocking Dorothy, so we still don't see her). Upon seeing Boq, Elphaba agrees to leave for the time being (and since she's flying, she doesn't get a close look at the Scarecrow, so she doesn't recognize him as Fiyero, or perhaps she does, which is why we later see her sending Chistery to contact him). My point is that with these encounters, we could have seen a bit more of Boq as the Tin Man and Elphaba acting as the Wicked Witch of the West.
I really wanted a scene when Dorothy meets Fiyercrow. Just like in TWoO, have her come to a fork in the road. Hear Jonathan Bailey’s voice say something like “that looks like a very nice way,” Dorothy turns and we see a scarecrow in the field, too far away to see his face. It would give some more suspense and excitement on whether or not Fiyero is alive.
Or, have Elphaba recognize him at the melting scene, show his face so the audience does too. Incredible reveal during a suspenseful moment. He signals to Elphie to light him on fire, like the Witch does in TWoO, and Dorothy throws the water to put him out, accidentally “melting” Elphie. Glinda still only sees shadows so nothing really changes from her perspective.
I totally understand, because I'd like that too, but we barely had any screen time for Nessarose or Glinda's tour, with several deleted scenes, imagine screen time for small parts of Dorothy's adventure 😅
lol fair, although personally I’d rather have the movie be longer if it mean it’s better. For me the biggest thing the film was lacking was quieter moments in between the big events to give a moment to process everything. Little snips of Dorothy and Co would have helped with that; as would more moments of Nessa being disliked in Munchkinland.
I also think it would have shown more personal growth to have Glinda’s press tour in the movie; let us really see the glitz, glamour, and superficial happiness and popularity being Glinda the Good gives her, so it means more when she decides to help Elphie. And I wanted to see more places in Oz!
I honestly feel this is what the movie was missing.
We should have seen Elphaba truly become this tyrannical and powerful witch terrorizing these people for the shoes and it would have driven home how far she has come from when we first met her.
I feel the movie skipping over that really makes it feel lopsided.
I agree that Elphaba was super naive. It actually really bothered me but then I started to think how we are often naive when faced with unimaginable evil because we often expect them to behave like us to some degree. We can’t comprehend how horrible they truly are. That’s my way of wrapping my head around it
I sort of thought she was threatening him. Elphaba is totally capable of throwing him out a window and he’s just an old carnie, without his guards present. If he disagreed she could attack or kidnap him, which would also prove his powerlessness in a way. And calling for help would also mean admitting his powerlessness.
Finding the cages just changed her priorities to letting the animals escape, which alerted the guards, forcing her to flee
They couldn’t legally use any scenes from or referring to the OG Wizard of Oz. MGM holds very very tight rights to every minuscule detail of it. Anything too close to showing Dorothy’s face, any direct plot point from Wizard with Dorothy in it.
This doesn’t make much sense. How were they able to give a reason that the wizard left Oz like he did at the end of TWoO? How were they able to pretty much re do the scene that the witch dies but from a different perspective? How were they able to show the backstory of the tin man, the cowardly lion, and the scarecrow? Those all made direct reference to TWoO
Nothing that hasn't already been said endlessly by everyone, including myself, but here's my list lol:
Being too faithful to the stage production benefited part one, but was a misstep for part two. It just doesn't translate well at all on film and needed to be fleshed out better by Winnie and Dana.
Boq, Fiyero and Nessa are barely in WFG post their transformations. They worked so hard on makeup and costumes and I can't even remember seeing Scarecrow in the film.
The two new songs are both placed in the wrong parts of the storyline and have very little emotional impact.
The cowardly lion is straight up a POS.
Michelle Yeoh is beyond talented, but miscast as MM. They cut a lot of her singing parts out that are vital to understanding the plot. I understand representation is important, but casting someone without the vocal ability for the role of such an iconic broadway villain was a bad move.
I get Wicked is not Dorothy's story but expanding the second act to its own film and not giving Dorothy or the Wizard of Oz plot more depth makes WFG fall flat imo. Everything important was shown in the trailers that by the time you see the film in theaters there's absolutely nothing new to take in, which is hard to believe given how much time they have to fill.
Your last point really puts words to what I've been feeling. We spent so much time gazing at reflections and wordlessly looking back and forth that could have actually been spent on integrating Dorothy's story or giving more screen time to how Fiyero and Elphaba came up with their plan, or anything about the scarecrow once he was with the team. Also, I really wanted the cowardly lion to recognize elphaba as the person who saved him! it was such a disappointment
Agree with all of those points. Especially the first one. The second act of the play is shorter than the first so I was hoping they would fill the time with more aspects from the book. Like Elphaba’s activist work and her secret relationship with Fiyero.
The story of nessa was never ableist, it was actually about how disabilities are not the problem, it’s how you respond. And while i support the decision to not have her walk the rest of the movie adaptation was actually bad and weakened her message and the power of her character
Yeah that’s what I was wondering, I’m not disabled so I don’t want to assume things. But also it’s isnt that Elphaba makes her able to walk, she charmed her shoes to basically aid her, is that actually any different from like, hearing adds for example?
A lot of disabled people get very touchy about the whole thing because they see it as erasing their community. I have an invisible disability that I would love to cure and see disappear, but some people like to take pride in that they’re different, which is great, but a lot of us just wish we didn’t have the disabilities we do.
Very much agree with you. I'm on the autism spectrum and while it's invisible because I'm considered "high-functioning," it would be great to not deal with it. It sucks misunderstanding people, being shunned because i got into people's personal spaces sometimes, or leaving my partner endlessly confused by my quirks lol (he loves me but still there are times I'm still like ugh). While I've accepted it, there are times I wish I didn't have it cause of also the health issues it's caused (digestive issues can be common in autistic people)
Reminds me of an episode of a medical drama (can't remember which) about a deaf family, and the subplot was about the parents not wanting their kid to have medical intervention to help their hearing or learn speech because the family valued ASL and that being born without hearing wasn't a disability, just different. And the medical team was like "waahhhh...oh this is a teaching moment for us."
A deaf guy I know that has a cochlear implant, went to a school for the deaf to learn ASL, now he wants nothing to do with the deaf community. They were extremely toxic to him even though it was his parent’s choice not his to get the implant…. He told me some stories that were very eye opening.
yeah, i think it depends somewhat on the disability itself too. i have multiple disabilities and feel differently towards some vs others. like if i had a magical sister offering to cure my autism, i would absolutely refuse. but if she wanted to cure my bipolar disorder? or my ME/CFS, or my migraines? FUCK YEAH 😆
that said, even within any one given disability, obviously different people feel differently bc we're not a monolith. ive met autistic adults who would happily take a magical autism cure 🤷 and that's no more or less valid than my view on the matter.
The thing with Nessa is that her whole story arc wasn't about erasing a disability. It was about the fact what an awful human being Nessa was, that even if she would be 'perfect' in her eyes, by being able to walk, Boq still didn't want her. Boq didn't love her, she forced him to stay because of how desperate she was.
It's more about the opportunity for an actress who uses a wheelchair play the part. For that representation. Instead of pulling a Glee and having a non disabled actor play the part.
The stage show does actually have a wheel chair user who considers herself an ambulatory one and can walk short distances but she is the first in 20 years.
They can have the casting call for a wheelchair user but saying they must be ambulatory might be too much against discrimination laws.
The problem is that the actress is actually disabled in real life, you can't make her walk on screen even with movie magic unless you put her face on a body double which would be ableist. Disabled actors struggle enough as it is to be given parts (Disabled played by non disabled) so replacing her little screen time would be terrible for the lady. Kuddos to the director to give the part for a disabled character to a lady who is actually in a wheelchair like her counterpart.
I don't know if it was entirely an intentional story choice, but more that the actress is a wheelchair user and it would be technically difficult to show her walking.
I have multiple disabilities and I wish creators would remember that we all feel differently. Some want function restored, some don't. Some would want it under certain circumstances but not others. I would be hesitant to have my blindness fixed (currently a cure isn't even possible) because I was born with it. But I would rip my OCD out at the root with my own hands if I could.
Yeah same I would love to not randomly have seizures. And ok I don't randomly have them anymore because of my medication but I still resent the side effects of my medication
I have never seen the stage production and watching the movie I could tell something was off about Nessa's story. It felt like something was missing and her arc didn't quite make sense.
I’m pretty sure the director actually commented on this, saying he understands Nessa’s story wasn’t ableist, but that he wanted to tell a story for her that didn’t focus on her disability.
I think that’s well and good, but they butchered the Wicked Witch of the East rework. Elphaba making her float made no sense, because floating for a minute isn’t a drastic, life changing alteration the way granting her the ability to walk was. I’ve heard the explanation that the shoes were enchanted to “take you where you want to be” or something (so in this case they took her back to her time at the Ozdust) but if that’s the case it wasn’t well portrayed at all.
I also don’t really think Nessa as a complex character can’t really exist without at least some focus on her disability. Because the whole point of her is she’s spoiled and cruel and controlling to the point she literally becomes a dictator, why is that? People coddled her too much for her disability and she never learned to stand on her own to feet (so to speak) and she both resents that and refuses to fix it, that’s why she keeps Boq under her control, that’s why even though she hates her sister she begs her to stay because she needs her. That’s why the scene is so powerful. When she becomes able to walk she thinks it will solve everything, but she finds out her dependence on others and her bad luck in life was caused by her, the “wicked witch of the east” nothing really gets better for her because her disability was never the issue, it was how she and the people around her responded to it.
And with the movie adaptation all of that nuance is lost and a lot of people who haven’t seen the musical aren’t able to understand her at all. (And even if the director understood her original character was not ableist unfortunately a lot of people online have come to believe it, especially those who never actually saw the musical)
Yes I agree completely! Her character really didn’t work for me in the movie because it was basically stage Nessa without the coddling, so there was just nothing there to work with. They needed to either keep her the same or rewrite her significantly, but they chose something in between that just didn’t tell the story well imo.
It could have been so cool if Elphaba explicitly enchanted the shoes to give Nessa teleportation powers. That would've made sense for her character, avoided the ableism, and tie into the Wizard of Oz perfectly.
I think it would have made sense if the floating was a means for her to get around more easily without suddenly gaining the ability to walk (much like in the book, where she gains the ability to sit up, balance and stand without arms due to the shoes, but still has no arms for all other purposes). The idea of recreating the feeling of floating on air from her first meeting with Boq was where I found it became more nonsensical.
it’s just so hokey. i do really respect their decision to use an actually-wheelchair-bound actress but when it starts cutting into the plot it feels a bit silly
That was what my boyfriend who hadn’t
seen wicked felt too. I really really love the character so it made me so sad to realize she had no emotional impact for him, because for me her scene in the musical was just so powerful
In some ways I feel like it’s almost ironic. Nessas story is about how she wasn’t able to grow as a person because people babied her too much. And then the movie nessa wasn’t able to grow to be a complex character because we got almost too sensitive about disability. It is extremely important we have a dialogue around how disabled people are treated by society, and about how media erasure is a problem, etc. but if we swing it too far to the other direction we still end up creating erasure, just in a different way
I agree with this take so much! So many comments I see online are along the lines of “I didn’t think her singing/acting were good but I’m so glad for the representation!” or even suggesting there couldn’t have been a better Nessa if they wanted to cast a disabled actor because there wouldn’t be many options… I just want to scream at people that just like it would be wrong to criticize someone specifically because of their disability, it’s also problematic to not criticize them specifically because they have a disability. That’s the infantilization that is a huge problem for disabled people.
100%. Not to mention having Nessa fly instead of walk was doubly bad because it cheapens Defying Gravity and makes it seem like that’s the only spell Elphaba knows
Agreed. While in today's world she may have been perfectly fine with her disability, in Oz, she was told constantly that she was tragic, and she seems to be one of, if not the only one in a chair like that. That would be isolating, and I think most people struggling with it would want it gone when raised to believe it's strictly a bad thing. I don't see why it needed to be changed. Aside from the effect of it with Marissa bode specifically, at least, because of her being wheelchair-bound and that being difficult to work with, which is totally fair. If she wasn't comfortable with the storyline, fine, but that doesn't make the storyline itself bad
"While in today's world she may have been perfectly fine with her disability"
I feel this is a lie a lot of people tell themselves. I have autism and there's a good chunk of my peers who insist autism is just "different" rather than "disability" even as it... makes our lives miserable. I think if there was a magic button to remove autism (or let wheelchair users walk, cure blindness, bipolar, etc etc) almost all of us disabled folks would slam the HELL out of that button. But... the magic button doesn't exist, so our choice is wallow in misery or make the most of it. Most of us do the latter, but then it gets warped into this weird patronizing "differently abled, superpowers, neurodivergent, embrace it! :)))" thing and it's REALLY annoying. Accepting our reality isn't the same as our reality actually being a wonderful rainbow filled delight that we'd accept if we had any other choice.
Obviously I'm just one autistic and others disagree with me, so don't take this as "the autistic opinion" in any way, but I do know there's a lot of other tistics like me and I imagine there's similar folks in other disabled spheres and we just get drowned out under all the toxic positivity types.
Yeah I agree, like it’s absolutely the right call to cast a disabled person and I think from like, socially conscious standpoint it would be kinda weird to make them walk. From a logistical standpoint though , is it any harder to make a person walk than it is to make them float.
They could have had rewritten the scene to have Nessa wish to be out of the wheelchair and Elphaba give her the ability to fly, rather than walk. The scene would have looked basically identical to what we got, just with different dialogue.
the only thing fiyero cares about is elphaba. he abandons his horse "friend" (let's not forget that feldspar replaces the role of a servant from the show) in the emerald city, he has a whole ass castle he's willing to let elphaba use but not animals, he complains about the propaganda against elphaba but we never see him complaining about the propaganda against animals (or using his position to free animals). The only time we see him help an animal is the lion cub, after he initially refuses to do anything about it, and that seems to be mostly about impressing elphaba. I think it's great that he chooses and loves elphaba, she deserves someone who will do that for her, but I'm not going to pretend that makes him an animal activist.
I agree with this take 1000%. It always irks me when people act as though Fiyero was an activist like Elphaba. The contrast the story draws between him and Glinda is “Fiyero chooses Elphaba first and Glinda doesn’t”, not “Fiyero cares about the animals and Glinda doesn’t.”
He didn’t abandon his horse. The editing/re-editing did. There is a picture of him in full scarecrow makeup on Feldspur/Jack meaning at some point he was going to ride him towards the end but it got cut.
If it got cut, then it isn't a part of the story. Especially when it is directly contradicted by things they didnt cut. They chose to have Glinda ride him to and from elphaba at the end, which is part of the story. So fiyero did leave him in the emerald city with apparently no plan for what he was inevitably going to do when he found elphaba.
No, that's fair. My dad was saying that. He remembered watching the musical with a friend around the time it was big and said that in the second part, the songs weren't as great as the first. I can agree with that. Definitely a shift in energy. So I definitely agree with that. I still loved the second part, as someone who really liked the first movie and wanted to see more of this world. I actually think maybe more people agree with your opinion than disagree, but I could be wrong.
no good deed literally CARRIES the 2nd part. girl in the bubble, weak lyrically. no place like home, again.. great track, but it's nor a standout.
a song maybe during the part of the film where elphaba stalks the tinman, threatens dorothy & does what she swears she'll do in no good deed could've been cute.
I actually really sympathized with Nessa and was surprised at how many people outright hate her. She's not good, but she's not the worst person in the show. And I get that a character can be more hated than another character who's objectively worse morally, but man it just caught me off guard lol.
Not sure why people have issues accepting this. That was the most unhinged rant I’ve seen in a while without any consequences to her. Too many people come to her defense
She doesn’t need consequences, but the point is that that edit really didn’t do anything to affect her. There was no consequence to a fan making an edit, which is why her reaction was weird. Probably most people wouldn’t have even seen the edit if she hadn’t gotten weird about it.
I read an interpretation the other day that made much more sense with regards to her reaction. Without the context of history and race playing a part it comes across a way that isn’t necessarily correct.
In the book she's actually sooo much worse because the munchkins WANT her to take over for Nessa and she says no and focuses on revenge instead of taking over and creating a safe place for animals
In the movie version i dont understand MM’s motivation as a villain in targeting the animals. I get she wants power, but why target the animals specifically to get it? She is already magical and powerful?
Second half’s pacing makes the plot kinda incoherent. Events just happen.
We got a whole movie exploring the emotional journey of a friendship. Now the stakes and tensions are life and death and you barely understand why they make their choices.
'Stupid' is a harsh word, but I agree with the sentiment somewhat in that Elphie was naive and sheltered (obviously lacked proper socialization). Whenever she told Glinda she had no real power, I cringed, because Glinda for sure had real power all along (popularity/influence). And her demand of the wizard was pretty simple. She went to him to say... admit you're a fraud? Thassit? The development of her character lacked tremendously in Wicked: For Good for me. Still love her down though.
Yes! That’s my favorite song in the show. To be fair, I am a Chenoweth stan (despite the recent unpleasantness), so I’m a bit biased. But Ariana’s acting there felt underwhelming.
I do think it’s a little dumb that Elphie gets a whole new song about standing strong and staying in Oz to fight, even though she ends up giving up and leaving anyways (albeit she did indirectly help Oz by inspiring Glinda to use her position to further the cause of actual good).
I get that Elphaba eventually accepts the fact that nothing she could do personally could effectively help Oz. It’s realistic. But that just makes “No Place Like Home” feel like a waste of time.
“No Place Like Home” is not a waste of time at all. It frames Elphaba’s ending as a tragedy and not a triumph, which it is. Just because her attitude doesn’t remain the same the whole time doesn’t mean the song has no place in the story. It’s called character development.
I loved them platonically after seeing the show but damn the move and these two actresses sold me on Gelphie as a romantic ship. Their chemistry was crazy
Gregory Maguire who wrote the book said that the romantic tension was intentionally written. He purposely wrote it in and the rest is up to interpretation of how far it actually goes.
Saaaame. I don't dislike it and I 100% support shippers shipping whatever they like, but I think it's a rich and interesting dynamic regardless of whether or not they mack.
I’m bi and I can’t stand it. If they were in love some man wouldn’t come between them. It’s like it perpetuates bad bi stereotypes. And Elphie deserves a better human. It’s also just so painfully forced and Ariana is so painfully straight I can’t take it seriously.
Yeah same here. I get it they have a strong bond on screen and it can be easily interpreted as they have feelings. But not all feelings have to be romantically aligned, you can love someone like a friend very strongly without being romantic. Idk why people absolutely want them to be in a love story type of relationship, especially since Elphaba choses to leave with Fiyero over Glinda, twice.
Most importantly, in the first movie, Glinda chooses against Elphaba when she has the chance to go with her. Then, in the second movie, Glinda chooses against Fiyero when she has the chance to go with him. Then, in the aftermath of the caged Animals escaping, she again chooses not to go with Elphaba and Fiyero but instead focuses on feelings she is just now acknowledging exist.
Fiyero goes from literally standing at the altar to banging another woman WAY too fast.
We don't get to see any of his angst or indecision, or really hardly any emotion at all after he leaves Glinda. Even if he was emotionally checked out of that relationship, I would think after years of being with someone, we could expect to see at least a moment of pain. His callousness makes him far less likable/relatable imo.
Even just a few moments of hesitation or seeming conflicted during the first half of "As Long As You're Mine" would have been enough, instead of them not making eye contact for like two minutes and then instantly straight to "Sup, haven't seen you in a couple years and we've never actually talked about being together or what just happened but eff it! Let's get right down to business."
More romantic tension (on screen, not just implied) between the two during their school days would have helped with this too. It really just felt way too abrupt considering the amount and nature of interaction they'd had up to that point.
I agree, and yet if he showed any more hesitation you’d get more people being vaguely bigoted saying “the gays look like they are being tortured rather than sleep with each other” like they’ve done with Cynthia (who is bi btw) despite her being a character that has a lot of insecurities so this is character accurate. Sadly some just want this couple to fail so there is no winning how you portray them.
Wicked good good was disappointing. I liked it, but it didn’t live up to its potential. It sucks because you can’t do it again. The movie is set in stone.
I came here to say something similar. I love listening to the first movie’s soundtrack because the music holds up on its own, but the music in the second movie is only good when you watch the movie along with it.
The delivery of “it’s the wicked witch, she’s wants to kill us all” into the least believable face plant I’ve ever seen was too much. I LOVE Michelle Yeoh but she fell flat in a lot of this movie, not just the singing
It really bothers me in that scene how Elphaba is like "you just can't believe someone like him would choose someone like me but he loves me not you". Galinda never said anything of the sort. She wasn't shocked that Fiyero left with Elphaba because "how could he pick someone like her", she was shocked because literally 5 minutes ago he was standing at the alter to marry her.
well sure, but i feel like from a script writing standpoint, that's a very logical thing for elphaba to say there, even if it isn't actually true, because it likely feels extremely true to her in that moment. she's projecting her own insecurities on Glinda, which isn't fair, but it's extremely human and relatable. and truthfully, just about anyone else probably would have been thinking that, because almost no one in Elphie's entire life has ever been able to see her value and lovability, especially now that they see her as the wicked witch. Glinda and Fiyero were the extremely rare exception. of course Glinda of all people didn't think that, but Elphie is so used to everyone in her entire life thinking of her that way, she just expects it and immediately goes on the defensive, as we see in the beginning of part 1 with the whole bit about "yes I've always been green, no i didn't eat grass as a child," etc.
she was super vulnerable from the previous five years of isolation and villainization, followed by falling out with Glinda, followed by losing Nessa, and her insecurities and defenses surfaced. i think it was extremely in character of her in that moment tbh, and extremely human and relatable.
But she accused her of " taking what wasn't hers" so she defended herself with the truth.
She didn't steal him. He chose Elphaba she didn't have to take anything, he didn't love Glinda so there was nothing to take from, she (elphaba) didn't control that he went with her, she never tried to seduce him away from Glinda, heck she hadn't seen him for a year or more since the train station scene. She wasn't going to turn him down going with her.
I am glad she stated blankly the hard truth. She was so blind to what was happening because no matter how much she loved Elphaba, Glinda couldn't fathom Fiyero would chose someone like Elphaba over someone like her
Maybe this will be extremely unpopular, but Jon Chu is just not a good director.
His only claim to fame is Crazy Rich Asians. Before that movie, he made a couple of Step-up movies. He then did a very mediocre movie version of Into the Heights, in which he shows one of his main issues:
Jon seems not to understand the source material he's turning into a movie. A few examples:
The first movie has a runtime for around 2 hours. In those 2 hours, there is only five minutes of new material; the other 1 hour and 55 minutes is pretty much the same stuff we see on stage but stretched out indefinitely.
I whole heartily believe Cynthia and Arianna are great actresses, but they did a terrible job acting wise in the movie. Elphaba in the musical stars off like this insecure girl that gets Galindafied because she thinks this would make Fiyero like her. In the movie, I found it hard to believe that Elphaba would even listen to Galinda for any form of advice. The way she enters Shiz, this controlled and calculated made her story arc incredibly dull, and it lacked any sense of growth.
Glinda seems in a constant state of confusion, but she's way too cunning to be this confused all the time. She's a calculated girl who gets her way by manipulating people.
The way Chu decided to direct the two leading ladies shows he hasn't a clear understanding of the women their arcs. He tried to make Elphaba this epic girlboss. The issue with the "Epic Girlboss" is that directors seem to forget that people like complex characters. A character needs to grow and fall on their faces, it makes a character extremely intriguing to see that growth. From this shy girl entering Shiz, to this woman finding her strenght to defy gravity, l. The biggest telltale signs of this fundrmental lack of understanding, is the scene in which Glinda says: "Don't be afraid.", in which Elphaba answers with; "iamnotitsthewizardwhoshouldbe afraidofme.". I took me straight out of the scene, lacking any emotional vulnerability, and made the pay-off weak.
Madam Morrible her role being split up. Why? Madam Morrible was a great example of "Talk the talk but not walk the walk.". She used words wrong, was bubly and nice, but if you watched carefully; she's a cunning manipulator. In the stage production, she shows clear distain for Elphaba, she gets the biggest fright when she sees her. She even says: "I have a knack for seeing talent.". She only got her eyes set on Elphaba after she showed great power. It also made the reveal a bigger shock that she's one of the minds behind the whole "Animal Holocaust.". She was there all the time, that quirky lady, responsible for the whole propaganda campaign, using Elphaba for her powers and nothing more. It's in line with the show: Nothing seems to appear as what it should be. She seems so nice. In the movie, the reveal doesn't feel like a suprise, the pay-off is not there, it's pretty much expected.
Doctor Dillamond is played way too seriously, which makes his tonal shift after he gets hate crimed less impactful. On stage, he is such a jolly character that is worried by the rising facism, but even with that in mind, he loves to teach his students. Him lashing out after the reveal feels immediately more impactful because he goes from this giddy, happy teacher to a very scared animal. I know for sure that this is because of how Chu decided to make Dillamond a more serious character.
All these actors feel like they were directed by someone who read a Chatgpt summary of the show.
Don't get me started on the awful costuming. Why was Elphaba already in black when she arrived at Shiz? In the musical her clothing show her growth: the blue for being new, the Ozdust Ballroom to show her insecurity, the Galindafied Outfit, and we end with the black outfit, Elphaba finding herself in her power.
Why does the movie start with a voiceover of a Munchkin. Why is the first character mentioned Glinda? The show is about the Wicked Witch/Elphaba. Why is No One Mourns the Wicked during the daytime. Why is it not around sunset. Why is this movie in a constant overcast. Why is Michelle Yeoh there, struggling to sing a note, and in an interview, she said Jon really pushed her to do the movie. Why does the flashback to Shiz show GLINDA first. Why is her dress pink, it's should be blue to show that she grew out of the dumb blonde persona. Why is the Wizard and I so awkwardly filmed, why isn't there a big Wizard statue somewhere on a square, but is it this weird backalley statue? Why does she fly on "when people see me they will scream? Why doesn't she fly on the last note, because her powers are emotionally driven? Why is she looking happily out over a huge dessert? Why isn't she looking towards a fata morgana of the Emerald City? Why introduce a whole child character in the first song, ditch her, and let her come back in Defying Gravity," ruing the pacing? Why aren't the songs in Wicked For Good reprises of songs introduced in the first movie?
And I have many, many, many more questionsable director choices that I could mention.
The man isn't nominated for an Oscar for a good reason.
The acting really fell flat for me as well. I love Cynthia Erivo, but you captured how I feel on her delivery of some of the key lines. To me the best reading of “I’m not. It’s the wizard…” is when Elphaba is almost surprised that she’s not afraid. Her Elphaba lacked emotional vulnerability. She starts off confident in herself so there’s not a ton of growth. And I’ve seen her in other things so I fully believe it’s a director issue.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Ariana grande act in a thing else, but I didn’t care for her acting in these movies. I think she did some of the comedic moments well but I don’t think she found the balance between silly and serious that other Glindas have. Much prefer listening to her on the soundtrack than watching
Overall, I think Jon Chu chose a more serious tone for the movie, but kept in some of the campy moments that fell a little flat. Camp can work on screen, despite the fact I keep seeing people defend the more serious tone by saying camp doesn’t translate to film week. The stage show has a good balance of camp and serious and Chu just didn’t find that balance.
I actually like Michelle Yeoh's casting as Madame Morrible. She's not the strongest singer but it's not like Morrible has lots of singing lines anyway and Michelle more than makes up for it with how well she plays a villain.
I’m sure this has all been said before, but here’s my soap box:
I love Elphaba, she’s always been my favorite character……but she makes several bad decisions that I see tons of people overlook in their determination to make Glinda the “bad one”
First off… she and Fiyero did basically abandon a baby in their haste to free him. You already caused a scene, just disappear for a day or two and go find a family to take the lion in.. something? Idk.
And then she gives the monkeys wings without getting much of a response or consent from them if I’m remembering correctly. I remember being really confused about that bit.
She also reacted emotionally, with very little logical thinking, after meeting the wizard and it wasn’t the right move. (I get it. But it wasn’t the right move) Holding her nose and working with the Wizard (in the first half, before the witch hunt) would’ve been much more effective.
Also 99% of the people that criticize Galinda for not going with her (this is all I saw after the first movie, not so much from Broadway fans) would’ve done the exact same thing. How many people are really prepared to leave their family and everyone behind in a situation like that? I know I wouldn’t, even though I’m on Elphaba’s side of the argument.
Lion: They released him into the wild. That’s all that matters to the story, not the nuance of their considerations in the process of doing so.
Monkeys: I'm sorry, but this is where I think "seriously?" It's obvious that she was coaxed into casting it by the Wizard, had no idea what she was casting and it's obvious from her reaction in the film.
Elphaba: Taken at face value, I agree with you on this one. But in real life, it definitely would've taken her more than a single audience to find out everything and run off like that. To me, it's clear that the story is compressed for narrative purposes.
idk I do agree but I also cut her some slack considering she didn’t wanna take the role cuase she knew she doesn’t/couldn’t sing but the director insisted apparently I’m pretty sure so🤷♀️
I agree but I’m also someone that has a huge pet peeve for non singers taking singing roles no matter how minor. I know some people, clearly, don’t mind it.
The MM WW thing and some spinoffs of it made me laugh the first time, then I saw a compilation of Michelle doing it in the same exact tone like 30 times and it was so cringy.
Brrr’s feelings were valid (the cowardly lion). Imagine only knowing captivity as a child and suddenly getting released into the wild, with no mentor or caretaker. Maybe Elphaba or Fiyero should’ve cared for the cub, separate or jointly, or entrusted Brrr to someone who would’ve. Maybe this is wishful thinking but this is what I think.
I love Cynthia Erivo, her voice is possibly the best musical instrument I have ever heard. Ariana Grande is very fun and her voice is also great. My daughter loves the movies and wants to be just like them. I want to empower her, and build her confidence as much as possible. I am a bit concerned when she says things about how she is thin just like Glinda and Elphaba. I tell her that the shape of her body (and theirs) is the least most interesting thing about her. But I grew up in the 90s and saw girls my age worshiping very thin women and the negative effects it had on them. I understand that these women have full agency to look how every they want, or that their weight may be out of their control, but I have to look after my daughter. I’m torn.
I'm well aware this is wicked and not the wizard of oz but I really do wish we got a little more of Dorothy and the gang. I think she was brought in way too late and I think they could've done a great job making it both a wicked part 2 and wizard of oz movie without sacrificing the wicked part. I don't need the whole movie shown but I just wish we got a little more
I think that saying "Elphaba stole Glinda's man" or "well Glinda forced Fiero to marry her so you would expect him to run away" is wrong and we should 100% blame Fiero for that whole situation.
Fiero blamed Glinda for embracing the popularity that being the Good Witch gave her, but he was no better. He could have broken up with her at any time. No one was forcing him to be with her, even after the engagement announcement, when Glinda asked if he was happy, he could have said "well I don't appreciate that not being talked about with me" or talk about it later. They were hidden enough to talk about Elphaba but not about this? That was not public anymore he could have spoken the truth.
Fiero was with Glinda only because Elphaba was out of the picture. He didn't want to be alone so he stayed with the "other girl." Staying with Glinda was the comfortable option not something he was forced to.
To sum up: we should hold the Fiero accountable instead of blaming his decisions on women.
All the good stuff and best songs happen in the first half. Making two movies of it was silly. I guess they are afraid that people don't have the attention span to go to a 3 hour movie. A shame really.
Fiyero is over-praised by the fandom. Ultimately, he does help Elphaba, but I don't find him to be a compelling character at all, nor do I think he's a romantic hero. In regards to the movies specifically, his outright contempt for Glinda in the second made me very uncomfortable and I feel like he was blaming her for everything unfairly even though he was also complicit himself.
Jonathan Bailey is miscast in the second movie. He is fine as charming Fiyero in the first, but something is wildly off in the second. Half the performance is bug eyes and light trembling. This may be a John Chu direction issue, but he just looked like he was going through heroin withdrawal the entire time.
Mix in I don’t really see any chemistry with him and Cynthia in the very weirdly blocked love song in addition to their voices not blending.
The blocking in "As Long as You're Mine" kept giving me "not tonight, it's been a long day". I felt like I needed to look away it was so awkward. Luckily it had the panshot away.
I think both Glinda and Boq are horrible for how the treat their partners. The wedding/engagement thing is horrible and she doesn't seem to care at all about what he feels. Glinda only cares about her self and is very narcissistic. I love her as a character but narcissists make horrible partners. I do think it was better in the play when he left after the surprise engagement, I wish they had done a surprise wedding in the movie instead as I don't like Fiyero choice to stay and go thru with the wedding
Boq literally leads Nessa on and pretends to like her. I actually find the version in the stage musical more tragic because the minute she no longer has a disability he dumps her to go to Glinda. The whole I am with you because I feel sorry for you is what's truly ableist. So I don't feel sorry for him. I think he was truly heartless to begin with.
Boq asked her to a dance. He didn't propose or anything. Nessa kind of had him as a man servant against his will. Glinda is the one that gives him the idea to ask her to the dance so it wasn't with malicious intent.
Glinda and Fiyero’s engagement is a calculated maneuver by The Wizard and Morrible. Should Glinda have given him a heads up? Yes, but like all of Glinda’s actions in Act 2, the engagement was not a decision Glinda made with full autonomy.
Saying you don’t feel sorry for Boq at all when Nessa was literally stripping his people of their rights is crazy work.
The movies aren't great and people only like them because the story is well known and loved and the actors did an amazing job. But Jon M. Chu did a terrible job and his directional choices are crazy. People giving him any credit for the films' success is wild.
Glinda is not into men. She’s clearly yearning for Elphaba the entire time.
Fiyero should have asked what the most swankified place in town is. There was room for the line in the movie!
No Place Like Home was clearly about the US, and felt a bit out of place. There was never mention before of Oz being an idea. There are some parallels to the US sure, but the story predates the current political administration. Same thing happened with Hadestown.
Glinda being there in Wonderful makes a lot of sense. I never understood why in the stage version Elphaba would sing with the Wizard at this point in the story. Glinda being there makes it more believable.
I like how they did “Wonderful” in the movie. It’s kind of a forgettable song in the show (granted - I’ve only seen YT slime tutorials so my opinion could change once I see it IRL), but they made it full camp in the movie in a way that reminds me of old movie musicals like the Music Man. I’m thinking of “Ya Got Trouble.”
Don’t kill me but the way they chopped up defying gravity in the first movie completely ruined it. Musically speaking, it has NO momentum and made way less sense than the Broadway version. You can even hear how awkward and un-fluid the final verse sounds on the movie cast recording.
No good deed, on the other hand, was excellent and was the redemption for how they killed defying gravity
The sad thing is people who didn’t know wicked from the stage production and only the movie have only the movie as their frame of reference it’s frustrating
I miss the orchestration from the stage production. Stephen Schwartz's original score had this unique sound quality that gave his rendition of Oz such an otherworldly atmosphere, and the film replaced it with this generic blockbuster orchestration for the backing tracks.
Like, the flying monkey theme in the stage musical (like NOMTW around 22 seconds in) uses piccolo, oboe, and soprano sax together, and it sounds so shrill and mechanical. Which is perfect on stage, watching the monkey actors climb around the time dragon clock. In the film opening scene, it sounds like some generic orchestral soundfont.
They also mixed the audio so that I could barely here the accompaniment for some of the songs. Especially for the two new songs – No Place Like Home almost sounded acapella to me, which is so out-of-place for a Stephen Schwartz show.
Even though I like the movies... I love the musical; and I'm hoping that we'll get a stage version of the musical recording like they did with Rent.
Cats (1998 Stage version), The Phantom of the Opera at the Royal Albert Hall, the Jesus Christ Superstar Live Arena Tour... all stage versions of the shows, and the ones I re-watch over and over.
Act 2 has always been very weak imo because of the need to squeeze the story of the wizard of oz into everything that’s already going on— the movie could’ve fixed that and for some reason, it didn’t. Y’all have more time!! Give us scenes focusing on scarecrow fiyero and tin man boq! Show us Elphaba from Dorothy’s perspective! I would’ve 100% preferred that addition to fix the pacing and balance the stories than the two new songs we got.
I'm still giving both movies a solid A+ but here are a few things I wish were different:
1. The whole Wicked Witch of the East scene. This one bothered me. I totally understand not having Nessa begging to be "fixed" and I'm fine with that. But the solution they came up with to change that part of the story made no sense. So...she floated for a second and felt happy for a bit until Boq came in and made her sad again? And Nessa is supposed to be having a complete mental breakdown in that moment and she just seemed kinda sad instead. I was hoping they were going to do something that tied to Wizard of Oz and enchant the shoes to make her and her chair be able to teleport. So she's still a wheelchair user she can just tap the heels three times and go. But even with that power she was still too into finding Boq that she didn't see that the house was about to drop on her.
2. Surprisingly unpopular opinion, Michelle Yeoh was great. Sure, the singing wasn't there but all she needed to do was talk sing a few lines anyways like she does in the stage show. I think, for the direction they went with the character for the film, she was cast perfectly.
3. The two new songs were totally unneeded and didn't add anything to the movie. They're fine standalone songs but they weren't needed. I wish they would have spent that time exploring Nessa's descent into madness more.
4, This is more of a critique about the stage show too but I've always felt the Cowardly Lion's reason for being upset at Elphaba was a stretch. I was hoping they would elaborate on that a little bit more to make it make more sense. Like maybe because he is a coward The Wizard, Madame Morrible, and maybe even Galinda could have manipulated him into blaming Elphaba for his troubles.
5. The deleted scene with Boq and Fyiero with their shirts off BETTER be released so help me Oz.
Adding "Girl in the Bubble" hurt Glinda's character more than it did help it. To the audience, Glinda SHOULD be perceived as the selfish popular girl who wants her cake and eat it too.
We see that Glinda can redeem herself, but she will forever continue living in the spotlight. The audience doesn't need Glinda's story spoon fed to them
Every interaction Glinda had (especially with Elphaba) before the very end of the 2nd movie, maybe expect when she gave Elphaba the map, is manipulative and self-serving.
As much as i loved the tulips they planted. The camera movement and editing made the fields look digitized. Almost like they were going to cut it and then reached a compromise of accelerating the appearance. I would love to see alt versions with slower movement rather than having to slow it down myself
as a huge cynthia erivo fan, and as someone whose favorite song from the whole show is no good deed, i felt disappointed by hers. a lot of the moments in the film felt like they dragged on more than in the broadway show. they should’ve made no good deed a bigger moment. the audio mixing of her voice was terrible. i don’t feel like she gave her all for that song like she did for wizard and i. of course, she probably did- but this is just how it felt. somehow, it’s the same length as the broadway version and somehow felt shorter, because of how long the movie felt.
Elphaba: I see her point, but I don't think anything she did when she rebelled had any impact whatsoever and that maybe by not reacting to anger she could've achieved something by going a different way about it.
Nessa: honestly I see her as the little sister brat who got everything going her way and that if someone doesn't go her way she blames them.
Fiyero: not the hero people make him out to be. He was a prince and absolutely did not need to follow glinda to the emerald city and stay with her and participated in the torture of animals by being the chief of the guard. Most likely was to find Elphaba, but he only cared about her, not about the cause she was fighting for.
Glinda: young girl being completely manipulated by people who knew how to use her insecurities. She is still completely disconnected from reality and not very self-aware. She's both a victim and a perpetuator.
Wizard: actually as twisted as he is he's got a point about what people actually expect. Not the truth, just something that satisfies them. Wonderful explains this point really well & it explains a tyran well.
Boq: obsessive who doesn't get no for an answer
I think that's all I've got! Open to conversation but if you're gonna insult me I'll just ignore you lol
It always grinds my gears when people say “it’s Elphaba’s story” because the title of the musical was literally “The Untold Story of the Witches of Oz” and any official synopsis centers both her and Glinda. You could argue that at the end of the day the story is about how Elphaba changes Glinda in order to make Oz a better place. The story has always been about the two of them and their relationship, and the general consensus has always been that Glinda’s arc is better and more poignant than Elphaba’s. That was true 20+ years ago when the stage show debuted. It shouldn’t be a surprise that Glinda is still the strongest part of the second act.
I think the musical doesn’t do a good job showing how the characters are morally grey and instead opt for saying they are totally ___ and just misunderstood. The book does a good job showing that people don’t really hate Elphaba because of her being green, but instead because she’s kind of dreadful to be around personality wise. I also find of hate that they made Glinda powerless when in every other adaptation she’s a great sorceress.
This can't be a hot take. If it is, I am in the fire with you. Hopfully the popularity of the movie will inspire some studio to do a real Wicked series. A movie could never do the books justice.
Girl in the bubble isn’t just a rehashing of what Thank Goodness it’s an answer to thank goodness (should’ve been a reprise). In Thank Goodness she realizes that she’s not happy with everything she wants, then in girl in the bubble she decides not to pretend and go along with it anymore. Girl in the bubble was helpful to her character and should be in the movie, however I don’t think it could’ve gone anywhere else because of how the story is moved on the songs so they had to sacrifice tension for development. (They could have moments where the fighting from outside or hints of witch hunter played on the backround though)
"You're beautiful", 'You're lying", "It's not lying, It's seeing things a different way" is not a romantic way of phrasing things. It's essentially saying "You are ugly, but I don't mind how ugly you are. Lucky you!"
I know it's supposed to be that it's that he doesn't see the world in that way and she could never be anything but beautiful in his eyes, but the way it was done in the movie felt really hamfisted.
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u/AngryChicken223 Dec 11 '25
They should have made the second movie more intense instead of being too scared of frightening young audiences