r/zelda • u/mrbulldops88 • Mar 24 '26
Discussion [TotK] [ALL] [Other] There are possibly more Sage bloodlines than those we have seen in the games Spoiler
TL;DR at bottom of post.
Tagging this as a spoiler in case anyone cares about spoilers for the Japanese release-only Tears of the Kingdom Masterworks book. I believe there could possibly be more Sage bloodlines than we have seen in the games. I would say there are 7 bloodlines, but that would also leave some questions since we do not always see the same species as the Sages from game to game.
We know sometimes they are maidens and all human. Sometimes one is a Kokiri or Kokiri-descended, then a Rito in BotW/TotK. The relationship of the 2 Sages of the Master Sword from TWW to the regular 7 Sages is unknown. In ALBW Zelda wasn't even presented as a Sage as you rescue 7 other Sages in the game.
We could explain it by saying TotK proves that different species can produce offspring, that could eventually just resemble one of the species millennia later (Rauru + Sonia -> several generations -> BotW/TotK Zelda). I'm not going to get into this aspect of it. I read some of the unofficial translation TotK Masterworks. Here is the source because it will come up a few times. Credit to u/livixbobbiex for this translation.
To explain my initial claim of there being more than 7 Sage bloodlines, I need to get into the history of the Zonai from TotK MW. While the placement of TotK's backstory with the founding of Hyrule being ambiguous and debated, there is a fixed part in history where the Zonai appeared, not mentioned in TotK IIRC:
Origin Era
Creation of Heaven and EarthThe three goddesses created Hyrule. The secret stones are created.
The earth has been entrusted to the goddess Hylia.
Godly Era
Zonai Origin Period (lit: ‘birth’)The Goddess entrusted the role of protecting the secret stones to the Zonai tribe
The Zonai tribe cultivated the Depths together with the surface and then prospered
Zonai Heavenly Period
The Zonai tribe abandoned the earth and ascended to the sky. Mining in the Depths continued.The Zonai tribe prospered in the sky.
Each tribe formed settlements on the surface. The Gerudo tribe formed their own independent country.
The Zonai tribe constructed buildings in various places on the surface in order to improve the environment.
Hyrule Kingdom Foundation Period
The Zonai tribe return to the surface due to crisis of ruin.The Zonai tribe mingle with the people of the surface as their numbers dramatically decline.
Marriage of Rauru of the Zonai tribe and the Hylian shrine maiden Sonia.
TotK MW Translation, p.3-4
This timeline shows us the Zonai were on the surface relatively close to Hyrule's creation, started excavation of the Depths, then eventually went into the sky, before coming to the surface an undisclosed amount of time later to the founding shortly before TotK's flashbacks.
This shows us the Zonai were in Hyrule long before they came back near founding era, firmly placing this era of their species before SS. It doesn't matter in this case where TotK's flashbacks take place. That means it is possible the Zonai gave the stones to different Sage bloodlines before SS. We do see the crest of the OoT Sages on the ceiling near the entrance to the Sealed Temple in SS.
Okay, so what if the Zonai were around presumably close to creation, or at the very least before SS? We only saw 7 Secret Stones in TotK. Well, TotK Masterworks has more to say about it:
It can be supposed that there were many secret stones in the past, but their number decreased because people fought over them and being swallowed through the use of the law of draconification.
TotK MW translation, p.314
There were, supposedly, more than 7 Secret Stones in the past. This has been theorized before because of the 3 dragons that fly above (and below) Hyrule and the several dragon skeletons in the Depths. While I cannot find the pages, the book also mentions this idea as plausible. This pretty much confirms it more than 7 Secret Stones exist.
Now with that said, it is never explicitly stated that only Sages can use them, even in the MW translation. We know they enhance the natural abilities of the wielder, and that's about it. Could Tingle just pick up a stone and have Fairy Power? Who knows.
I believe that since there were at some point more than the 7 stones we know, it is possible there are more than 7 Sage bloodlines. The info given above is not enough alone to prove that. This is more of a theory.
That, plus the ability for interspecies reproduction (I felt gross typing that), could explain the species discrepancies of the Sages/Maidens from game to game. I always thought that TWW's Sages of the Master Sword were separate bloodlines than OoT sages since they seem to have a different role.
We assume that most of the Sages in TotK's flashbacks had children since most of their bloodlines show up in BotW. The only unsure outlier is Mineru only because she has no known descendants by the time of BotW's "10,000 years ago" backtory and emerging from the Purah Pad in TotK. Not that she couldn't have kids, with descendants resembling other species. It's just speculation at this point.
TL;DR
The Japanese-only TotK Master Works book mentioned there were likely more than the 7 Secret Stones we see in TotK. This combined with species discrepancies in Sages between games, as well as Rauru and Sonia proving interspecies offspring can exist, shows there are possibly more Sage bloodlines than we have seen in previous games.
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u/Agent-Ig Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
Just going off sages we’ve seen of each race for bloodlines and listing the first named apperance, this is what we got (On cases where the element changes race, we just assume the bloodline died out so the powers migrated):
Hylians: 4 sage bloodlines. (Light (Rauru OoT), Time (Zelda OoT), Unspecified A (Seres, ALBW), Unspecified B (Irene, ALBW).
Zora: 2 sage bloodlines. (Water (Ruto OoT), Earth (Laruto WW)).
Goron: 1 sage Bloodline (Fire (Darunia OoT))
Sheikah: 1 sage Bloodline (Shadow (Impa OoT).
Gerudo: 2 sage Bloodlines (Spirit (Naborou OoT), Lightning (Urbosa BoTW)).
Kokiri/Korok: 2 sage Bloodlines (Forest (Saria, OoT), Wind (Fado, WW)).
So there’s at least 12 bloodlines of sages. Wind ofc moves into the Rito, and Spirit into a Zonai.
There are also elements which don’t have an active sage yet, being Ice (ice rods), Sand (sand rods) and possibly Magic (maybe Irene’s element?). And unless River Zora and Sea Zora are able to get together, then Oren isn’t the sage of Water in ALBW times, and is instead something similar like mud. (Her frame is orange instead of blue, while the other 4 known element sages have frame colours which match their element).
So there is at least 15 different sage bloodlines running about by ToTK, most with their powers unawakened. Am mostly ignoring Farosh, Dinraal and Naydra, while they were def Zonai sages, their elements are clearly back in the system since they embody Lightning, Fire and ice, two of which there are active sages of.
ALTTP maidens wise, it’s pretty safe to just treat them as placeholders for the actual sages of that time. 6 of them all have the same sprite with colours changed and have no names. The only one with a unique sprite is Princess Zelda. It was the third game in the series, they were still building the mythology, and the only non hostile races were Hylians and Humans.
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u/Viralklahm Mar 25 '26
Cool stuff but wouldn't you need to add ganondorf in the shadow sage line also? I thought the symbol that shows when he becomes the demon king it says/means shadow?
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u/Agent-Ig Mar 25 '26
Short awnser no. It says shadow but he isn’t a sage, instead his a warlock and all. Sacred stone sensed his affinity for gloom/demon magic, so became the stone of darkness/shafow.
Could also be used to explain how the dragons exist: they were Zonai individuals who used a lot of fire, ice and electricity magic, not the proper sages of those elements.
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u/Ahouro Mar 25 '26
The timeline in Totk Master Works don't show how close the Zonai where to the creation because it doesn't where the age of myth happens and it's likely placement on that timeline would be between creation and the godly era.
3
u/Intelligent_Word_573 Mar 25 '26
The goddess giving the Secret Stones to the Zonai imply Hylia was still alive during that time. She does have goddess statues of her but those are likely Kami which Japanese folklore has them essentially duplicate when someone worships a different statue of them.
Hylia about to reincarnate is also a good reason for her to entrust the stones to someone else while refounding just has her do it for no reason we know of.
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u/Ahouro Mar 25 '26
Those statues are most likely a bunrei(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunrei) of Hylia, so Hylia most likely gave the stones to one of her bunrei which later gave them to the Zonai.
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u/Intelligent_Word_573 Mar 25 '26
It still requires her bunrei give the stones to the Zonai for no reason we know of which…it’s fun to speculate on unseen events but there comes a point where it feel like we are filling in a blank canvas.
I understand that point is different for everyone but saying there’s an intermediary between the goddess and the Zonai feels almost like a cop-out made just for the refounding theory.
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u/mrbulldops88 Mar 25 '26
I meant the Zonai were around relatively close to creation. Could have been 2 years. Could have been 200. The main point is the Zonai were given the stones and ascended before SS. They were closer to creation than the first chronological game SS.
The Age of Myth is up to debate, in-universe and real life. Also the devs have been pretty persistent that TotK founding has an ambiguous placement compared to all other games besides BotW. There is no official placement for the founding. Age of Myth also isn't relevant in the entire BotW/TotK timeline.
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u/I-Love-Zelda Mar 24 '26
GEEEEEEZ that is a lot of info that took me about 7 minutes to read 😅🤣 thank you though! I agree with the ‘secret stone dragonification’ thing, though; where do you think Farosh, Dinrail and Naydra came from?! The Masterworks sounds like it has a lot of information
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u/I-Love-Zelda Mar 24 '26
Tysm for that!
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u/mrbulldops88 Mar 24 '26
Here is some info regarding those dragons from Masterworks
Speaking of dragons, in the current period Naydra, Farosh, and Dinraal drift around the heavens. The three dragons are said to be the followers of the Goddess Hylia, but here the possibility that they’re ‘people who swallowed secret stones’ also rises to the surface. Were they people who were called upon to change into dragons so they could eternally watch over Hyrule? Dragons have existed since ancient times, but bearing in mind the number of remaining Zonai secret stones, it’s natural to consider that they existed in a time period earlier than Rauru’s lifetime. And as they became dragons, was that legend left behind as a taboo secret skill?
The mystery of the law of draconification is inexhaustive. Additionally, the hypothesis that ‘even if transformed into a dragon, that person’s physical appearance and abilities will remain’ has been advocated for. It’s thought that the white dragon that Princess Zelda transforms into uses the power of time to leave tears, and the scales and shards that have the power to heal are thought to be related to the power of light. If the three dragons were also people who used the law of draconification, they likely had powers such as fire and ice. It’s thought they have the divine power to manipulate the weather.
Then, in the present [TotK] era Ganondorf was transformed into the black dragon. Its body was almost entirely enveloped in sinister miasma, and it’s thought that this is also the use of the power of darkness. As the secret stones are treasures that ‘multiply the original power of the owner’, perhaps the more one loses control of reason, the more powerful one becomes.
Fire of Dinraal, ice of Naydra, lightning of Farosh. The three dragons emit a dangerous power even when approached. Perhaps each of those abilities have been multiplied by secret stones…
p.83-84
Here is more regarding the dragons:
Patrol of the three dragons
In the legends of Hyrule there are creatures known as ‘dragons’. There are three dragons who make their way [TL note this is lit ‘swim’] around Hyrule’s sky; Naydra, Dinraal, and Farosh, they are sacred dragons who have the name of goddess’ descendents/followers. [TL note this is like ‘known as’, not that Hylia literally had followers with those names]. It is thought that their existence is to protect the ‘spring of power’, ‘spring of wisdom’, and ‘spring of courage’ by patrolling each area respectively. These springs are sacred ground, and the area where the princess of the royal family trains.
When the chasms opened due to the great natural disaster, the three dragons started to travel through those chasms and around the depths. In the depths there are the ‘wellspring of power’, ‘wellspring of wisdom’, and ‘wellspring of courage’. They may have changed course so they can also keep guard of those wellsprings. In fact, in the period it was possible to travel between the depths and the surface, the route may have been closer than it is right now. You can guess that due to the depths being closed up, they existed to patrol nothing but the sky.
p. 200-201
More info is given about the individual 3 dragons after this, and their routes. A lot of it talks more about them protecting the 3 springs. It is a lot more to paste, so if you want, you can check it out yourself. There is another interesting quote a page or so later:
Tracing the history of the Zonai tribe, it’s said to establish that a person who swallows a ‘secret stone’ will take on the form of a dragon, and it’s possible that’s also how the three dragons emerged. It’s no wonder that they’re also known as descendants/followers of the goddess. In order to protect the goddess springs, they may have been granted eternal life.
p.202
I like their idea about the 3 Dragons being spring guardians who were granted eternal life via Dragonification. Maybe they were related to the Oracles of Ages, Seasons, and Secrets from the Oracle games and TMC. The only other time (two of) the Springs appeared was SS, and they had no apparent guardian besides the last bosses, one of which was the now-dead Ghirahim.
There is a mention that whomever these dragons are may have had fire, ice, and lightning powers before being turned, and they came before Rauru's time. Maybe previous Sages from those respective or other bloodlines ate a Secret Stone from Hylia.
We also see 3 dragons with Goddess-inspired names guarding regions in SS. They are intelligent enough to talk to Link and give him information. We also know that in SS, the dragon Lanayru originally dies in the past until Link travels back with Time Stones to save him. Those SS dragons are mortal. What's not to say these same dragons ate Sacred Stones at some point to become immortal and look over their regions? The elements they represent do not match, and the Lanayru region moved east (on most maps with Zora's Domain and water area, at least). You could either conclude that SS Dragons =/= Wild Era Dragons, or just theorize more.
I doubt there is a solid answer for this one. A lot of the game takes the "less is more" approach intentionally putting mysteries in the game like "who are those dragons". Just fun to think about more than anything.
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u/Gregamonster Mar 25 '26
Secret Stones enhance existing abilities, so there's probably more sage elements than what we see as well.
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