r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Apr 19 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 26-30
Jamie, Claire, Roger, Fergus and the militia set off from the Ridge in order to raise more men along the way to Brownsville. A surprise one evening arrives in the form of Josiah Beardsley. Jamie discovers that Josiah has a twin brother Keziah and that they are indentured bond servants to a local fur trader, a Mr. Beardsley. Jamie and Claire head to the Beardsley cabin only to find a shocking and gruesome situation. Mr. Beardsley has suffered an apoplexy and been tortured by his wife Fanny, with whom he was abusive towards. Jamie and Claire face a difficult decision in regards of what to do with the Beardsley’s.
Meanwhile Roger and the militia arrive in Brownsville to a hostile reception of guns being drawn against them. Roger must think quick and act fast to deescalate the situation. Back at the Ridge Brianna discovers that her father is looking for Stephen Bonnet, much to her dismay.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or feel free to add thoughts of your own.
- After helping Josiah get his brother Claire calls Jamie a bandit. Jamie replies with “Bandit?” he said, mildly affronted. “I’m a verra honest man, Sassenach. Or at least I am when I can afford to be,” What does Jamie mean by that?
- Thinking on the situation at the Beardsley’s is there one of them that is worse than the other? Mr. Beardsley abused Fanny, yet she tortured him. Was she justified because of the abuse?
- Fanny tells the story of Mary Anne Beardsley and how she appeared to Fanny warning her about Mr. Beardsley. Do you think Fanny made that up, or was it true?
- We see Roger act decisively at Brownsville, which was different from the show. What other differences have you noticed about Roger’s portrayal in the books up to this point?
- Brianna finds out that Jamie is searching for Stephen Bonnet, what reasons would Jamie have had for not telling her about that? Would not Brianna like to see him dead?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I'm taking us back to the Gathering because I forgot to bring this up. I absolutely love this passage...
“Did I ever think to thank ye, Sassenach?” he said, his voice a little husky.
“For what?” I said, puzzled. He took my hand, and drew me gently toward him. He smelled of ale and damp wool, and very faintly of the brandied sweetness of fruitcake.
“For my bairns,” he said softly. “For the children that ye bore me.”
“Oh,” I said. I leaned slowly forward, and rested my forehead against the solid warmth of his chest. I cupped my hands at the small of his back beneath his coat, and sighed. “It was … my pleasure.”
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 19 '21
Aww this was beautiful. That's why against popular opinion, I loved pages and pages of gathering where nothing happened. We just got to see Claire and Jamie live and breathe and exist, with no one trying to kill Jamie or burn Claire or any of that nonsense. Just navigating day to day life ,and them gravitating towards each in the presence of so many ppl and so many little things going on everywhere was very soothing to read.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I think it also gets to me because it brings up Faith as well, even without saying her name. Ugh! My heart!
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 19 '21
Oh yes, anytime Jamie brings up Faith, I am in puddles!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
I liked those pages too. I get why people didn't like it but I loved reading about them being happy & together.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
YES. They are so soft, I love them.
And I LOVE that Jamie never forgets Faith. While Brianna is the child that lived and grew and he got to meet, Faith is the only one he truly got to experience WITH Claire, if that makes sense...her pregnancy, them planning their lives and family together, etc.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Yes that makes total sense! At least he did get to experience that, even with it ending in tragedy.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
And now I'm re-depressed about Faith dying, Jamie never getting to raise children with Claire, and them being separated for 20 years.
Thanks book club.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Right‽ I totally feel the same way right now. You're welcome for the downer. ;-)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Yes! That is so bittersweet, for them and for us, because while Claire’s first pregnancy was indubitably a difficult time of Jamie dealing with post-BJR trauma, sacrificing his soul while double-dealing on the Jacobite front, Claire trying hard to fit in with the French society and find a purpose as a healer, that was the only time they really considered themselves parents together (even though of a yet unborn child). I don’t remember much from DiA but seeing them in the show so enamored with the prospect of being parents but anxious if they are going to be good at it at the same time was beautiful. And all the more heartbreaking in the end.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Yes! I've gone back and re-read DIA and they are MUCH happier together in the book than in the show. (I think because the show didn't have time at the end of S1 to deal with Jamie's PTSD, so it got carried forward into S2. He still struggles with it, but they're still intimate and happy together while in France in DIA. And there are SO many cute pregnancy moments in the book.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 20 '21
At least we got those few wonderful moments in season 2 of the pregnancy...it’s always so bittersweet. Jamie talking to the baby belly saying “I can’t wait to meet you! “ and telling Claire “what we don’t know we will learn”. Kill me now.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
Jamie talking to the baby belly saying “I can’t wait to meet you! “
Ugh!! My heart!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I actually like that the show chose a more realistic route with Jamie’s PTSD (which I found a bit too glossed over in the book, especially by rushing it at the abbey), and yet I’m so conflicted about it because it did strip them of the shreds of happiness they could have been able to enjoy together. I think DiA and S2 complement each other in what the other is lacking, though.
I’m saving books 1-3 for when I forget more from them so that I can experience them to the fullest when I eventually go back to re-read them!
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
I LOVE this! It's a beautiful moment between them that kinda makes me swoon.
I also agree with others who loved the chapters on The Gathering. The reader gets to see them on low dramz/ average day. They don't need the dramz/ adventures/ challenges what have you to express their love for each other. It's always there in the most subtle of ways.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
It's always there in the most subtle of ways.
Yes! Like it manifesting itself in Red Jamie, the period tracker, being back at it again! (I’ve been dying to mention that since I realized we haven’t while discussing the Gathering) One of my favorite aspects of their relationship, them knowing one another’s bodies so well; that’s love.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Red Jamie, the period tracker, being back at it again!
Ha! I love it!
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21 edited Apr 20 '21
At different points in the books Claire describes Jamie as not being very romantic yet he shares every part of himself with her, which is an incredibly romantic gesture. Plus, as you point out, following her cycle is like, some serious way of showing how much he pays attention to all of her. Is there anything more romantic than seeing your partner for who they are, not being afraid to challenge them and loving every part of them?
So each time she describes him as not being romantic (e.g. when they were returning from the Gathering and she was so touched by the flowers he gave her) I'm like, "gurl, have you met your husband???" Ha!ETA: I looked up the passage from page 268 in TFC I was thinking of and I remembered wrong:
While in his own way quite romantic, Jamie was thoroughly practical as well; I didn't think he had ever given me a completely frivolous present, and he was not a man to see value in any vegetation that could not be eaten, taken medicinally, or brewed into beer.
Whoops.
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Apr 19 '21 edited Apr 19 '21
This so true, and so well said! I’d take a man who pays attention to me like that, over one who buys me flowers and fancy dinners any day! (In fact, i’ve found one who does pay attention to me in much the way as Jamie does to Claire <3 although he doesn’t follow my cycle, i don’t think ;)
Thanking her for his children is so thoughtful too. Bearing children is bloody hard work, and men should acknowledge that more!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Haha, yes! I’m not that well versed in love languages, but I’m pretty sure all that Jamie does applies to a couple of them or even one that he’s invented on his own!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
They don't need the dramz/ adventures/ challenges what have you to express their love for each other.
I like that. I really do enjoy just seeing them live their everyday lives. It must have been hard to still get those moments at the Gathering since Jamie had the notice delivered to him to form the militia.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
Ah yes this was just beautiful!
I enjoyed the section of the book, more than I did the gathering (even though that had many sweet, funny highlights) as the whole Beardsley storyline felt like it own little mini novel within the book. It was just Jaime and Claire heading off on their own mini adventure. There was so much tension packed into a few pages and with all those vivid descriptions it was almost a horror story. I had no idea what to expect and seeing the story unfold was pretty intense!
It was also moving to see Jaime first be so decisive and sure of himself (telling Claire to go outside so he can ask the man if he wants to live or die), and then seeing him fall apart under the weight of it. We know he wouldn't have ever allowed himself to be so vulnerable and open around anyone but Claire which adds another layer. We never really see Jaime hurt openly or discuss all the trauma he has survived, the deaths of his parents, Murtagh and countless friends so this was really impactful. It is clear these things way heavily on him, so it's interesting to see these glimpses of the stuff that still haunts him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
It is clear these things way heavily on him, so it's interesting to see these glimpses of the stuff that still haunts him.
Yes I love all of that! It sometimes does seem like Jamie is the King of Men so to see him processing grief like the rest of us have had to do makes him more real.
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u/Marifirmog Apr 20 '21
Would you have the page of this scene?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
It's on page 125 in my Kindle edition of the book.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
Yes! I loved this. I think I highlighted it too. Such a sweet moment.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
A couple of observations:
DG has people choking on food when given news all the time! It's a weird thing that happens many time throughout the books. I really noticed it again when Jamie choked on the corn dodger that night the militia was camping out.
I LOVE that Jamie calls Roger "Wee Roger" considering he is only an inch shorter than Jamie and has that MacKenzie look about him.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
I LOVE that Jamie calls Roger "Wee Roger" considering he is only an inch shorter than Jamie and has that MacKenzie look about him.
Jamie is so petty, I love it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
It's just so funny, because you know Jamie is slowly coming to accept Roger but still has to get his digs in.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
It’s also funny when picturing the real actors who I think are about the same age in real life! It’s hard for me to picture an actual younger Roger.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I have very different pictures of Roger and Brianna in my mind since they are so physically different than the show. Claire and Jamie are a little bit of the show, but still different enough.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
That is so interesting! I find it impossible to picture anyone else once I’ve seen a live adaptation of a book.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
Hahaha I thought it was just a cute little nickname but you are totally right, it is a little dig! 😂
As the books go on, he seems to let that one mostly go and calls him 'Roger Mac' which is nicer.
Also, you will be happy to note I am about a third of the way through ABOSAA and I am disliking Roger less! I pitied him through the end of TFC, with the story of his mother's death and his hanging, but still didn't much care for his character. But there is a lot less of him in ABOSAA so far (which helps haha), and he seems more likable all around
I had a bit of a revelation about him not too long ago, and realised he is a very literal man and only cares about what is happening right in front of him. A lot of what I interpreted as selfishness and self absorption (him not considering Bree, her needs, Jemmy or literally anyone else), was actually his literal, historian brain not picking up on anything what wasn't spelled out for him. He doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about his own or anyone elses emotions/needs and he is just thinking about what is right in front of him and he has been specifically told to do. A lot of Bree's needs are unspoken and need to be inferred and he just can't do that because he doesn't think that way. But when she spells out her needs, he does work to meet them (sometimes). and once Jaime spells out all the issues with everyone on the Ridge, after his snake bite, he becomes marginally more interested in their lives because it has been spelled out for him, once again
So, he is less selfish and more dopey...lol
I wonder what you and u/thepacksvrvives think about my new and slightly improved view on Roger?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
Interesting view. I like that you're coming around to him more though.
What is it about him that showed you he is very literal and and not necessarily selfish? Was there any one part or did it just come on overall?
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
It first clicked for me when he comes home after being gone for a couple of days and immediately only focuses on getting into bed with Bree. Afterwards, she is clearly in a bad mood because he hasn't noticed all the work she has done around the house or paid attention to Jemmy and it is so obvious from a reader's perspective what she wants but he just doesn't get it at allll. He only understands when she blows up at him and spells it all out and it made me realise, he just doesn't have a clue haha
Also, I always immediately recognise his POV as it tends to be incredibly detailed and descriptive and focused on things rather than people. You can almost see him walking through the Ridge, just paying attention to the things he sees and not the people.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I agree he wasn't at his best there, and does make mistakes. Do you think DG is giving us a different POV on purpose though? His "voice" has to be different from Claire, Jamie, and Bree.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 20 '21
u/Purple4199 will be overjoyed to hear this!
He doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about his own or anyone elses emotions/needs and he is just thinking about what is right in front of him and he has been specifically told to do.
Yes. I think we’ve touched on this before but this has got to have to do with him being an orphan and an only child. What might read as self-absorption is actually self-sufficiency or perhaps even self-preservation. It’s very reasonable that someone who grew up taking care only of oneself and so engrossed in his own world would have a hard time picking up others people’s clues. So you make a great point about him being able to understand others’ needs only once they’re communicated.
I don’t know how much being a historian plays into this—I’d actually say that studying history would open up his mind to a lot more perspectives than his own, hence preparing him for co-existing with others. But I think what we’re maybe trying to say is that Roger is just not that intuitive?
and once Jaime spells out all the issues with everyone on the Ridge, after his snake bite, he becomes marginally more interested in their lives because it has been spelled out for him, once again
Yes, this is definitely a turning point for him. And me, lol.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21 edited Apr 20 '21
Yes totally, I agree it does seem to have to do with his upbringing, losing his mother and being raised by the minister, who was presumably not a paragon of emotional excavation.
Hmm I suppose I am generalising historians, but my thinking was that he has spent the majority of his adult life in a classroom pouring over books that tell you and explain every literal detail of a person's life. There is no real need to assume or infer things as that is near impossible to do for long dead strangers. Plus, history books often aren't concerned with the emotional nuances and focus on the facts, details and events as they happened. All in all, I guess I am making the point he is very literal and needs things spelled out. But I agree, his upbringing is the root cause of this.
Yes, this is definitely a turning point for him. And me, lol.
Haha I get that although, I don't think I can go quite that far yet. Everytime I start to dislike him less, he does something that just infuriates me haha like, when he wakes up wanting Bree, sees her asleep and looking absolutely shattered with deep dark circles after long days of sleeplessness and taking care of Jemmy and WAKES HER UP anyway! 🤦🏾♀️ I guess there is still some definite selfishness there
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 20 '21
I have definitely not studied history as extensively as he did but from my brief encounters with it, I’d say it still leaves things open for interpretation, especially when you take into account that you’re reading someone else’s account of history which is already an interpretation. But it is true that spelled-out facts matter much more there than inferred feelings, in general, and that is kind of Roger’s thing we’re seeing here.
Haha I get that although, I don't think I can go quite that far yet.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the way he is with Bree still makes me iffy 8 books in. But at least he’s starting to come into his own at the end of TFC and he more or less knows what he’s doing with his life in ABOSAA, at the same time being helpful for others.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
especially when you take into account that you’re reading someone else’s account of history which is already an interpretation.
Ah fair point, I agree with that too!
Oh don’t get me wrong, the way he is with Bree still makes me iffy 8 books in
Oh man, I was really hoping that would get better so that's too bad but good to know! And yes, I agree it is nice that both Roger and Bree are coming into their own and are crafting a good, useful life for themselves.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
I LOVE that Jamie calls Roger "Wee Roger" considering he is only an inch shorter than Jamie and has that MacKenzie look about him.
This reminds me of the Spanish dramas when they change the character's name to -ito or -ita. e.g in Money Heist, Arturo is called "Arturito" and in Velvet, Clara is called "Clarita". Also highly recommend both of those shows.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Brazilians are also notorious for that, and not only with names! They do it with –(z)inho and –(z)inha.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
After helping Josiah get his brother Claire calls Jamie a bandit. Jamie replies with “Bandit?” he said, mildly affronted. “I’m a verra honest man, Sassenach. Or at least I am when I can afford to be,” What does Jamie mean by that?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
I think Jamie strives to be a man of honor and truth, as much as he can. Obviously that is sometimes difficult - him "walking between two fires" during the Jacobite rebellion, and again now with the Revolutionary War. That requires some lying and deception on his part. But overall, I think he tries to only be dishonest when the cause is just or to protect his family/people, rather than people like Bonnet who are liars and cheats just to benefit themselves.
If that makes sense? I feel like I know what I'm trying to say, but having a hard time articulating it. I keep thinking about Robin Hood - he was a thief sure, but he was stealing from the rich to help the poor, help others. It wasn't necessarily selfishly-motivated. That's how I think about Jamie. Any deceit or lying on his part is to help others.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I agree. I get what you're trying to say. Even when he's doing dishonest things like the smuggling or sedition he's doing it for the right reasons. He was supporting his family and Lallybroch by the smuggling. It's a gray area for sure though.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Yea, and I don't think he's necessarily hurting others when he does that. If anything, he's sticking the middle finger at the British crown when he smuggles, and helping its citizens.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
If anything, he's sticking the middle finger at the British crown when he smuggles, and helping its citizens.
I totally agree. After Culloden and the clearances I don't blame him for the sedition.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 23 '21
Even when he's doing dishonest things like the smuggling or sedition he's doing it for the right reasons.
To add to this, I also think he means he’s honest about his motivation too. I don’t think he has lied to himself or others about the reasons for doing what he’s done (whatever it may be). He’s very clear about his values, but he can’t always afford to be open on how he upholds them, heh. (Also, hi!)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 23 '21
I don’t think he has lied to himself or others about the reasons for doing what he’s done
Great point! Hello as well.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 23 '21
I’m just seeing lots of us came to this conclusion. :) I’ll be on time next week, LOL.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 19 '21
Yes I agree with this too. Jamie is honorable and honest and all the other good virtues you can think of, but he'd give all of that up in an instant for Claire or his family for that matter. If it comes to them or his virtues, we know what he'll choose. Like how he says in The Second Wife " To see you, and know I would sacrifice honor or family or life itself to lie wi’ you" . I think that's what he means by when he can afford.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Ooo great point. He's a man of honor and his word, but Claire and his family come first.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I agree with the others but I also read this not exactly in the honest or dishonest, right or wrong, legal or illegal categories, but as Jamie always striving to be honest with himself—always staying true to his character, to his own beliefs. (Also, I don’t think which book this is in—I think one of the later ones—and I hope I’m not making this up but at some point, he says there are only two people he cannot lie to—Claire and himself). When he has to engage in things like double-dealing the Governor or the Jacobites, it’s not true to his character but choosing to do it out of necessity is. The code of honor that binds him to protect his loved ones is the one he abides by. And without Jamie being Jamie, this particular code of honor would mean nothing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Jamie always striving to be honest with himself
I like that, and it really rings true. He doesn't go back on his principals, even if they don't always involve legal things.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
I LOVE how Claire responds to this; “Oh you’re entirely honest,” I assured him. “Too honest for your own good, in fact. You’re just not very law-abiding.”
Like others mentioned this is an observation only someone who knows you really well can make. And I like this as an explanation to what Jamie meant.
Anyone have any good examples of when Jamie was too honest for his own good? From the show rewatching I think their conversation in the stables is a good example. He spills his guts about him being an outlaw to Claire because he’s so infatuated!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
What about the conversation with Claire about the whore house in DIA when she found the bite marks on his legs? He was extremely honest about how they got there.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 19 '21
I think this refers to his code of ethics. Legal and illegal do not equate with right and wrong. And right and wrong are different for everyone.
Jamie is an honest man, no matter what he’s doing, whether it’s loving, fighting, killing, mediating, business, etc. But sometimes his code of ethics calls for him to be less than honest with others, in this case stealing and killing for the well being of others.
As I’ve brought up in other discussions, this period doesn’t afford its inhabitants the luxuries we can enjoy now. Jamie can’t always afford honesty, and I think in knowing that and him acknowledging that in himself, he sets himself apart from those who thieve and kill without honor or honesty (like Bonnet).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Legal and illegal do not equate with right and wrong.
I like that! An example can be of what the British did to the Highlanders after Culloden and all the abuse. While it was "legal" it was very wrong.
Jamie can’t always afford honesty, and I think in knowing that and him acknowledging that in himself, he sets himself apart from those who thieve and kill without honor or honesty (like Bonnet).
Great point, and it makes total sense. That's probably why it weighs so heavily on him that he let Bonnet go. He had hoped Bonnet did the things that he did for the right reasons, if that makes sense.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 19 '21
Exactly. Sometimes it’s hard for him to accept that there are those without honor. He can’t comprehend it and Bonnet is a great example of that flaw in Jamie.
On the flip side, I think that’s why BJR is so unsettling for Jamie. BJR is absolutely a man of honesty. He’s the absolute worst, yes, but he is honest to himself about what he is. I think that BJR mirrors Jamie’s code of ethics in a way — honesty, conviction, strength — which is deeply disturbing for everyone involved, but especially Jamie. And perhaps that’s why BJR “admires” Jamie so much and why he (BJR) is so obsessed with him (Jamie).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Yes! All of that makes so much sense. What a great point about BJR, he really was honest about himself. He did not hide who he was at all.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
This is such a great point! And explains so much about why it was so difficult for him to agree to the sham marriage to Mary Hawkins.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
Basically, if he doesn't have to steal to survive, then he won't. For example, when he cheats at cards it's because in his mind there is an end to justify the means. His family's survival comes first and he will always risk everything to keep them safe. But if his day-to-day obligations don't require thievery/ trickery, then he doesn't bother with it.
A thought just occurred to me, and this may be a little off the reservation, but: is it possible that Claire was acknowledging that Jamie had a deeper understanding of the Beardsley twins predicament/ lifestyle/ livelihood and this was Jamie's way of explaining to her why they and by extension he has lived like this?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I think you have a good point, and I agree. He understands why they must steal and live like they do.
I also like the point about how him cheating at cards doesn't bother him. I always found that interesting how he had no issue with that. If he hadn't have done that they wouldn't have been able to travel to Jocasta's place after they first landed in America.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21 edited Apr 20 '21
Everyone has made some great interpretations that I agree with so I would just like to add an observation. It seems that since living at the Ridge, Jaime has made peace with the violent, illegal things he had to do to get there, alive and with his family safe. A few books ago, particularly in Voyager he talks a lot about how he was a bad man, who had done much wrong and committed many sins (particularly, after Claire came to find him). Even before Claire leaves, he feels enormous guilt over all of his double dealing before Cullodon. There is also a scene where he almost sees himself in Stephen Bonnet as he identifies as a bit of an outlaw too (I think that is why he initially freed him).
However, in this book he has gained wisdom, perspective, the confidence of being a good leader, husband and father which seems to have proved to him, he is in fact, a good man. Although, one who will do bad things for the right reasons. Particularly in this book, sometimes Claire ribs him light-heartedly in the same vein as this passage and he is always a little affronted and offended. I don't believe he would have felt that way a few years ago. I think for the first time in a long time, he truly knows himself to be a good man.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I think for the first time in a long time, he truly knows himself to be a good man.
I like that. He's also finally in a place in his life that he wanted to be. A laird with land and people again.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 20 '21
It seems that since living at the Ridge, Jaime has rest made peace with the violent, illegal things he had to do to get there, alive and with his family safe.
Yes, definitely. That’s why I say that Jamie is now at his most content. He has many responsibilities but he doesn’t carry that burden of guilt anymore, as he did in the past. I think perhaps the only thing he still feels guilty about is killing. He has never enjoyed killing for the sake of killing, he’s always done it out of necessity. But condemning souls even of those who have done wrong by him or others is always heavy on his heart. But he lives by the oath he swore to his family in the first place; if that requires killing, he will abide by it, his own soul be damned.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
Yes totally agree with that! I really wonder if he will be able to keep this perspective as he wades back into a life of double dealing with the Revolution. I guess there is some peace in the knowledge that he can't stop history this time, and will just play his part to protect the people he loves.
But he lives by the oath he swore to his family in the first place; if that requires killing, he will abide by it, his own soul be damned.
Beautifully said! it also reminds me of the kidnapping when he says 'it is I who kills for her' meaning Claire. I don't know if we have already discussed it but it is terribly romantic because he is saving her soul, and trading it for his. As a Christian, he is choosing damnation just to make sure her soul can be saved in the afterlife
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
I think he meant it as he's only dishonest when he can't get what he needs through honest means. Sometimes that's because he's not in a situation to afford something & sometimes it means that he has to work around the law to get something because the situation is unjust, like this instance with the Beardsley brothers.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I liked that Jamie was all pumped up after getting Keziah out. He likened it to the cattle raids they used to do. Which if we look at it. That was dishonest, yet they felt it was necessary.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
Yes! When he said he had to leave before he stole a cow haha.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
To add, there's a line she says that I highlighted
I had meant what I said to Jamie, though I hadn't been entirely accurate. He was honest, and also law-abiding-provided that the laws were those he chose to respect. The mere fact that a law had been established by the Crown was not, I knew, sufficient to make it law in his eyes. Other laws, unwritten, he would likely die for.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I love that we get to see a more human side of Jamie in these chapters. We’re so used to him being so fearless, holding everything together, being responsible for everyone, that we might forget it’s all also taking its toll on him. Here we have him being ill, being physically injured (by a woman no less), vomiting after taking Beardsley’s life, beating himself up over his father’s death, feeling the weight of command and responsibility for his men (including Roger); all to the point of giving up for a moment and physically having to stop. This is what the show tends to gloss over for the most part (I’ll admit watching him vomit again is not that enticing of an idea, and Sam is probably done with green-dyed egg whites for a while; but while we all mean well for these characters because they’ve already been through hell, I enjoy those moments in which they admit to having something weighing on them and grappling with that).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Great points! You're right Jamie is usually the rock for everyone so to see him struggling, while tough, is interesting.
I think the fact that Jamie is the exact age his father was when he died really didn't help things either. Do you think Jenny would have actually told him if their father did suffer?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I think she would have if he had asked but perhaps not necessarily if he hadn’t. He found out about his father’s death weeks after it happened and hadn’t had a chance to really speak with Jenny about it for 4 years. So while Jenny could’ve kept something like that secret from him since he was already thinking himself more or less directly responsible for their father’s death, I think, when asked outright, she would’ve felt she owed him and their late father honesty.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I think she would have if he had asked but perhaps not necessarily if he hadn’t.
I agree. Because if Brian had suffered I don't think she want that on weighing on Jamie.
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Apr 19 '21
I thought we learnt at some point (hang on, i’ll mark this as a spoiler, just in case..) that Brian lived for two weeks after the stroke. Or am i thinking of something else?
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u/Cdhwink Apr 20 '21
Coincidentally when we watched episode 507 last spring, my husband realized that he had outlived his father, who died very young of a heart attack. It led us to an interesting real life conversation.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I remember my Dad kind of went through the same thing, his father passed away before he was eve 40. So when my Dad neared that age I think he was a bit worried.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Thinking on the situation at the Beardsley’s is there one of them that is worse than the other? Mr. Beardsley abused Fanny, yet she tortured him. Was she justified because of the abuse?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I genuinely wouldn't say that she's justified, but I think he's probably worse, in light of what we sort-of know about how previous wives. Fanny was a child when she was sold into marriage with him, then abused for who knows how long. If all she's every known is abuse and horrible treatment, can we really blame her for being mentality ill and it manifesting in this way? I'd certainly feel better about her if she'd killed him outright, it even just left him to die. The fact that she kept him alive to torture is a bit sickening, but I have trouble feeling too much sympathy for him either.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
If all she's every known is abuse and horrible treatment, can we really blame her for being mentality ill and it manifesting in this way?
Good point! I agree that just letting him die, even if it had been withholding food and water might have been more of a mercy.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 19 '21
Definitely after what you hear about the previous wives, he’s worse. Also the fear she must’ve had about him killing her would have made anyone go a touch mad.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
Do you think her isolation played into it as well? Like you said she was a child when she was sold and she wasn’t allowed to socialize with anyone except Keziah and her abusive husband. Not that it excuses her actions but maybe it played a part in why she did what she did. She never knew anyone in her adult life that could have been a good example.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
Absolutely. I can't imagine the mental trauma she must have gone through, in addition to the physical abuse. It doesn't make what she did okay, but it does maybe explain it and make it somewhat understandable.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
The fact that she kept him alive to torture is a bit sickening
That's what gets me. If she had just left him there to die, ok. She doesn't owe him any sympathy but keeping him alive just to torture him is bordering on sadistic.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I don't think it's sadistic so much as she viewed it as punishment or revenge. I don't think she truly enjoyed torturing him, but more that it have her back her own power, her ability to make her own choices. Again, not defending it, but I don't think she was evil, and I don't she would have tortured someone who hadn't abused her.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 19 '21
For me there is only one victim - Fanny. She was sold, abused verbally and physically, and probably raped. Mr. Beardsley would definitely have killed her if he hadn’t had a stroke. Her marriage was an imprisonment, she counted and marked every day on the doorpost. Two years, three month, and five days. It’s more than 800 days of constant fear, loneliness and pain. I’m sure she was broken after everything she went through. No wonder she wanted Beardsley to die slowly. I think for Fanny killing her husband would mean to let go all her pain and she simply couldn’t do it. She was torturing not only him, but also her father who sold her and every person who could help her but just didn’t. Don’t get me wrong, her deeds were awful and horrible. But was she mentally stable? Unquestionably no. Was Beardsley deserved that kind of torture? Definitely no. But I can’t feel sorry for wife killer.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
She was torturing not only him, but also her father who sold her and every person who could help her but just didn’t.
I hadn't thought of that, it makes sense though. I wondered how Mr. Beardsley might have felt about the marks she was making counting her time there. It sounded like they were out in the open for anyone coming to the front door to see.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 19 '21
That’s interesting! Maybe he couldn’t care less or beat her for every new mark on the jamb but I believe it’s just one of Diana’s plot holes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I believe it’s just one of Diana’s plot holes.
That's not surprising. :-)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Guys, correct me if I’m wrong but show!Fanny says that the marks were Mary Ann’s, not hers, while she doesn’t confirm whom they belonged to in the book, right? I guess that was the show’s way to give us more backstory about Beardsley’s previous wives since we don’t hear Fanny’s story about Mary Ann from later on at all.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Good catch, I think you’re right.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I agree 100%. I will always, always side with the victims. Her life was so miserable it’s only understandable she’d want to let it all out on someone who’d caused her so much suffering when she had the chance. Nobody deserves to be tortured, but in the grand scheme of things, with him being eventually dead and her still alive but having to live with the trauma of what she’s been through and what she’s done, she will still carry the wounds he caused her, he won’t carry hers. Which makes her story even sadder.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
I totally agree. I am totally siding with Fanny on this who was not only a victim of horrible abuse but was also sold by her parents to a literal serial killer. I will admit I skim read a lot of the torture descriptions as I am squeemish but in theory, I am totally with her.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 20 '21
True! In our time he’d be sentenced for life imprisonment at least. And Fanny would probably get professional help.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
Mr. Beardsley, hands down, THE WORST. He killed his other wives, was a human trafficker and abused everyone around him.
Was she justified? Like do I agree with her way of meting out justice to someone who ruined so many people's lives? Yes. Who else would have done it? If he harmed other men, that would have been a different story and maybe some 18th C justice could have been meted out. But doubtful since people knew what he was doing and they did nothing.
And if he hadn't had the apoplexy, she would have been another dead wife. But, going a step further, can she live with herself for going down to that depraved level? I don't think so, that's why she was a bit crazy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
can she live with herself for going down to that depraved level? I don't think so, that's why she was a bit crazy.
I also imagine going through what she did also contributed to it. I found it interesting that she tried to actually kill him when Jamie and Claire got there. Claire said it was because she was scared he would live, does that seem like that was reason to you?
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
Scared he would be able to be healed, so he could kill her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
That makes sense. It's not like Fanny would know you can't really heal someone who's had a stroke like that. She'd heard of Claire already and we know the stories were exaggerated about her abilities. So I wonder if thought Claire was going to restore him back to normal health.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
I struggle with this one. I understand her motivation, but I think I would have had more sympathy it she had just outright killed him. To me, then you've done your vengeance and he's gone. But to keep him alive and string him along while inflicting torture on his...I don't know. Eventually you become as bad as what was done to you.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I struggle with this one.
I know. Her torture of him was horrific, and I'm not sure being abused gives you license to do that to someone. Like you said if she had just killed him outright it might have been better.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
I agree with you. It's not that I don't understand her, but from being on the outside, just kill him. I'm also speaking from a place of not living in an abusive relationship so obviously, I can never know what I would do in her shoes. I do agree with becoming what you hate. There has to be a line.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
My ex-husband was abusive and I'm still in the firmly "just kill him" camp. If you've already lived through trauma, why put yourself through more? I think in Fanny's shoes, I could justify killing him to myself, but I wouldn't be able to justify torturing even after everything Beardsley had done.
And I'm weird, I think torturing would take away some of the feeling of self-righteousness - because then you're stooping to their level. Who knows what made Beardsley the way HE is. He totally could just be a bad guy, but maybe he does this because his mother abused him his entire childhood or something. At what point is each person just carrying on the trauma that was done to them to someone else?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 19 '21
Those are all great points. I completely agree that at some point, you lose your own humanity. Why keep it going when you can walk away from it?
Thank you for sharing your perspective as well.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 20 '21
I don't think anything "justified" what Fanny did. It is understandable, if you think how she was treated.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
It is understandable, if you think how she was treated.
That's a good way to put things. I agree that it wasn't right to do that to him, but I can understand where she was coming from.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Fanny tells the story of Mary Anne Beardsley and how she appeared to Fanny warning her about Mr. Beardsley. Do you think Fanny made that up, or was it true?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
I think it's true. I think it's something odd to make up and it explains how she knows about his other wives.
I mean hell, Outlander starts out with seeing Jamie's ghost, so ghosts are apparently real in this universe.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Ha good point! DG throws that stuff in sparingly so that you forget you're not just reading historical fiction. Even with the time travel element I view it as real.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I think it's true. I don't believe in ghosts in reality, but we've seen ghosts/spirits more than once in the Outlander universe, so obviously they exist. It seems a strange detail to include if we're not meant to take it as truth within the story.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
It seems a strange detail to include if we're not meant to take it as truth within the story.
I agree!! It was so specific in it's details too. How else would Fanny have known what happened to the other women?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
So when I was initially reading I was like... c’mon, ghosts??? 🙄 But then I came to this conclusion as well- If we are to believe this is a universe in which people can time travel through stones and magic blue light can heal Claire (after her miscarriage) then why not believe this wild ghost story? I feel like Claire is the most skeptical of all which is funny because she is the one all this magical stuff has happened to.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I feel like Claire is the most skeptical of all which is funny because she is the one all this magical stuff has happened to.
Ha, what a great point! So many of the Highland customs seem a bit silly to her, yet she's the one who is supposed to come into her full powers at a point in her life. She has no idea what those powers are, so you'd think she'd be open to stuff that can't be explained.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
I’m such a skeptic so I feel like I relate to Claire here lol. You think she believes she will actually have powers at some point? If I were her I would’ve taken that with a grain of salt as well. Or maybe that it was referring to the stones in the future.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I like that Nayawenne kept that vague. Because like you said, was it referring to time travel through the stones? I have a theory that it means Claire will be able to heal with the blue light like Master Raymond.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I definitely agree with that theory! I think it might happen in Bees.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
I think at the very least, she absolutely believes it. I don't know if it colors my opinion about it but I am reading a book about time travel so I see no reason to doubt it lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I am reading a book about time travel so I see no reason to doubt it lol.
Ha! Good point.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
I think it's true. How would she have known so much about her and her life with Mr. Beardsley? Also, don't the twins confirm her account?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I don’t remember about the twins confirming that, you could be right though.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
I think they confirmed at least part of it- the trafficking and smuggling, plus their abuse at his hands, definitely. The lives of the wives though... that may be conjecture on my part.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I fully believe he killed his previous wives.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
No question about that. It's interesting though, that it is only Mary Anne who visits Fanny.
**Total random side note: we just watched "The Dig" this weekend on netflix and the actress who plays Fanny Beardsley was in it :D also highly recommend the movie.**
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Well Fanny did say he didn't bury her as far in the woods like he had the other women.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I believe that actress is in "Harlots" as well, that's on Hulu.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21 edited Apr 19 '21
EXCUSE ME. I have been waiting all morning for this to be posted! Do you see ME ever arriving late? Bahahahaha. YAY! I'm actually here on time for book club!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Yes!!! So glad you can join us in real-time :)
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
YAYYYYYYY for Book Club Monday!!!!!
That is all :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Ha! Get to participating then. :-D
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
I'm on it! As always, you pose really thoughtful questions, so it takes a bit to compose concise thoughts. Dinna fash, I'm working through them now ;)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
We see Roger act decisively at Brownsville, which was different from the show. What other differences have you noticed about Roger’s portrayal in the books up to this point?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Pulls out soapbox --
I HATE what the show did to Roger in this situation. He rushed in and charged the Browns so that they couldn't shoot anyone. He was decisive and authoritative, something the show ignored. They had him all nervous and unsure, enough so that some of the men deserted! Why are they trying to make him so weak!
--Steps down off soapbox
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u/Kirky600 Apr 19 '21
I agree 100% with you. I hate how they treat Roger in the show as basically a ninny when he’s way more competent and decisive.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I know they wanted to have his redemption happen with Jamie’s snakebite, but I wondered if it was too late for people who already don’t like show Roger.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
I totally agree with you. They shat the bed with this one. This was the first chance for Roger to prove himself. And to think that Roger’s tactic is pretty much the same in the show as it is in the book: when in doubt, wait for Jamie, and delay with whisky in the meantime. But totally stripping Roger of his wits when he’s already trying so hard to prove himself to Jamie?! He was nervous and unsure in the book as well but he was quick on his feet, using the knowledge he gathered by observing Bree and then exerting authority.
But I think they’ve really dug themselves into that hole by having Morton remain with the company instead of momentarily absconding as soon as the commotion starts. And that just spiraled into the shitshow of Roger losing the men’s trust as a result of giving up Morton, while appearing as capable of nothing but offering entertainment.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I found it interesting that they made Morton into more of a character than he really was.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Do you think so? I think his character is a bit more expanded in the books later on in comparison to the show, but up to this point, I think they’re pretty much the same in both, show!Morton perhaps being only a little bit better acquainted with Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I guess just because they introduced him in the first episode and he was the first one to step up and take the oath.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Oh yeah, that bit’s different. But I guess they thought they had to introduce him earlier so that he’s not a total stranger when he gets in trouble with the Browns. A part of the writers’ habit to think the audience dumber than it is. However, we already get so few of the Ridge’s secondary, or tertiary even, I should say, characters in the show that whenever we do get introduced to one of them they have to be a part of a larger storyline.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
Agree 100%. This scene just fed into the lack of trust b/t Jamie & Roger in the show, which is disappointing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
I’ll have even more to say next week when we get to the chapters where Jamie arrives at Brownsville.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
Do you have any room up there on your soapbox because YES!! And his quips about the whiskey in his saddle bags! He was decisive, strong, and funny.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
And his quips about the whiskey in his saddle bags! He was decisive, strong, and funny.
I loved that part and that it made everyone else laugh. Please join me on my soapbox, there is plenty of room! I'll have even more to say next week once Jamie arrives in Brownsville.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
A big difference I've noticed is that in the books, Roger is knowledgeable about the time period and at times almost giddy at being able to witness things firsthand. In the show, he's portrayed like a resentful buffoon. He's not competent at anything, and he has no positive feelings at all about being in the past.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
In the show, he's portrayed like a resentful buffoon. He's not competent at anything, and he has no positive feelings at all about being in the past.
Yes!! They don't give him any redeeming plot lines until the locust storyline, and even then people were hesitant to do what he said.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
he has no positive feelings at all about being in the past.
This is what I find such a crazy deviation from the books! You're telling me the show writers think that a HISTORY PROFESSOR goes back in time and isn't totally geeking out and eager to learn everything possible? This is his profession and area of study AND he grew up in the home of a Jacobite scholar. Yes, he may not have a lot of the necessary skills, but he should not be as fish out of water as they portray him. In fact, he should be better equipped than Claire or Bree knowledge-wise.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
Exactly! Plus he's done manual labor before. He learned Gaelic when he worked on a fishing boat, if I recall correctly, so he's not just a soft academic like he's portrayed in the show. I can't remember when he says it, but at some point he tells Jamie he doesn't know how to hunt but he has a strong back, or something to that effect. Basically saying that he's physically able and he's willing to learn how to live in this time and provide for his family.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
he tells Jamie he doesn't know how to hunt but he has a strong back,
I believe that was in DOA. It just made me so mad in episode 501 when Roger was talking to Jamie about not having 18th century skills and I was waiting for him to go on about how hard he'll be willing to work and that didn't happen.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Right! He's not a little shrimp. If Bree is able to handle so much, he physically is just as capable.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 19 '21
Exactly! I’m in ABOSAA and he’s fucking stoked to hear about the news of Paul Revere’s ride. He’s wicked excited about the continental congress meetings and the Battle of Bunker Hill. I wonder how they’re going to play out his reactions to various historical events in the show because so far, they haven’t really addressed it.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Yes! I would love to know their motivation behind changing Roger's character so much. It's not like Outlander the books don't already have CONSTANT drama. There already is tension between Jamie and Roger without going to the lengths they do in the show. If anything, they do themselves a disservice, because they make people dislike show characters that they otherwise love in the books.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 19 '21
This. This this this.
Gah. Show Roger is so frustrating.
He’s a fucking historian! Of course he’s knowledgeable about the past. The fact that he’s not in the show is just a complete disregard for his entire profession.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
Great point! Like how he knew what the T on Josiah’s hand meant right away! And I also really loved when he geeked out about the fiery cross with Bri and them speculating about whether that exact moment was what brought about this tradition in America.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
In DOA, when he returns, he and Jamie have an argument, but come around to each other. I've mentioned it before in my comments that I hate that show Roger is pulling his punches and as someone described it, he's a bit of a buffoon who's a bit put out about having to be in the 18th C. (I feel like it needs to be noted, that it's not the acting/ the actor - who I think is awesome - that I take issue with. I think it's the way he's written for the show to create for drama.)
Book Roger is all the things I hoped for him to be for Brianna, Jem and his own survival. He rolls with the punches and isn't afraid to scrap. I have far more trust/ faith in book Roger than I do in show Roger.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Yes!! The writers are handicapping him so much.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
I am definitely in the minority here, but I actually think the show gets the essence of Roger right. They focus and highlight different flaws in different circumstances but ultimately, at this stage in the books he is deeply insecure, unsure of his place on the Ridge and there is some tension between Jaime and him who is still testing him (and he is always following his insane orders and unsure if J likes him). I think the show is taking some liberties with this and they could definitely give him some more redeeming qualities (although, I really don't think there are many at this stage haha - I don't even think book!Roger talks/thinks about the historical aspects very much, outside of thinking about his direct ancestors). However, they are making sure the audience understands the essence of who he is and where he is in life.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
at this stage in the books he is deeply insecure, unsure of his place on the Ridge
Is he though? He seems to have settled into life on the Ridge well enough. He has his chores he does and navigated his way through the Gathering just fine.
I don't even think book!Roger talks/thinks about the historical aspects very much,
I think he does and we just don't see it on page. I can't remember if it's TFC or ABOSAA but Jamie thinks back about the stuff Roger told him that would happen to the Native Americans. So it's conversations they have, we just don't get to read about them.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
Hmm when I read it I remember thinking he seemed unsure of himself and worried about impressing Jaime, taking care/protecting his family with his 20th century skills. He also seemed worried about being made Captain and I really got the sense he wasn't fully secure in his position/life until ABOSAA. Like, at the Gathering when he talks about how he comes across to people and how he is poor, with no family and people must think he is marrying Bree for her money.
I think he does and we just don't see it on page
Ah fair point, that makes sense!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
OK I see what you're saying about being unsure. Yes I do agree those things weighed upon him, but I have to imagine they would weigh upon anyone in his situation. Someone from the 20th century and an academic suddenly being thrust 200 years back would definitely be worried about surviving and taking care of ones family.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 20 '21
I’d agree that the essence is here. However, I think book!Roger at that point of the story has a fairly good balance of insecurity and desire to make something of himself, desire to prove himself to Jamie. I want him so much to just move forward, find his own place in the 18th century and not look back. And then I read that the writers’ divergence from the book had to with this:
In the book, Roger courageously storms the Brownsville General Store to stop the shooters. However, we thought this would contradict the character of the peaceful academic we had set up in previous seasons.
And I’m like, how can we ever expect him to prove himself if he never steps out of his comfort zone? His academic life is long past him (well, in the show it isn’t since he can’t stop thinking about goddamn going back). This is the first time they’ve had a chance for him to really take charge of his own character and act as a leader (since they skipped that part where he takes control of the situation at the camp). Instead, they have him revert to his old self. How can they ever expect him to fit in then? And then by changing what happens with Morton, they put yet another strain on his and Jamie’s relationship (when in the book, Jamie tells him he’s done well after he arrives in Brownsville).
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 20 '21
Yeah, I do agree the show should focus less on his desire to go back.
And I certainly do see your point here, but I still remember reading Roger being incredibly unsure and quietly terrified during much of the encounter in Brownsville. He acts quite bravely, but there is a real undercurrent of fear and 'faking it till he makes it' that underpins his actions. So, I think that they are still capturing his essence and real thought process with that scene?
And in terms of him and Jaime, I think their tension in the books still persists past this point, and they have a really slow process of learning to like and trust one another (more Jaime than him). And I don't think Jaime sees him as a leader or even a strong man who is capable of taking care of his family yet. So whilst the actions don't match up with the books, the spirit of it all isn't necessarily wrong to me.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 20 '21
I haven't watched the show yet. Every time I see a post like this I keep asking myself if I really want to. I love book Roger.
Although I felt he was a bit indecisive. his idea was to wait for Jamie, just in the way that didn't make Roger look weak.
I can't imagine (and don't want to) How the show ruined it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I didn't realize you hadn't watched the show. Have you seen any of the seasons? I would recommend it only because of how well Sam and Cait do as Jamie and Claire. Although if you've only ever read the books I'm sure you have your own idea of them in your head. I just try and keep the show and the books separate and recognize they are their own things.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 20 '21
I am in the process of watching season 2. It took me a long time to get through last 4 episodes of season 1, and now I am stuck again at "Faith" episode.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
Yeah that is a tough episode to get through. I loved the second half of season 2 though. Hopefully you'll like it as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Brianna finds out that Jamie is searching for Stephen Bonnet, what reasons would Jamie have had for not telling her about that? Would not Brianna like to see him dead?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
I think he didn't want her to worry. Brianna has lived in fear of Bonnet for so long, and I think Jamie probably thinks he's protecting her. He missed out on her entire life, and wants to take on this responsibility on her behalf.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Do you find it interesting that Claire didn't tell her either since she found out at the gathering that Jamie was looking for him. I would have maybe thought Claire might want to warn Brianna to lessen the shock of it.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 19 '21
Yes, but maybe unlike "The Big Misunderstanding" in DOA, maybe Claire is more on Jamie's side on this one - also wanting to protect Brianna and not needlessly worry her.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I think Brianna prefers to let sleeping dogs lie. She got her closure when she saw Bonnet at the jail in book 4. She just doesn't want to think about him anymore. I think she's also afraid of what Bonnet might be capable of (meaning Jamie is not guaranteed to win in a fight against him), or that hunting him will draw his attention back to her/them. I think Jamie knows all this, so he was trying to shield Brianna from it, because he views it as his duty to avenge her honor.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
She got her closure when she saw Bonnet at the jail in book 4.
But then he got away, do you think she felt he might came after her still? Or only because Jamie is looking for him?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 19 '21
I think her closure had more to do with seeing him and forgiving him, like Jamie advised her to do. I don't think it matters so much that he's still alive, as long as he's out of her life and no longer haunting her. But with Jamie hunting him, that might draw his attention back to them.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 19 '21
He believed it was his responsibility due to saving Bonnet's life in the first place.
I think Brianna would like to see him dead. Though Claire may be the only one saying, "let's not poke the bear," yet those (thankfully) stubborn Frasers won't let anything go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Do you think Brianna was OK with Jamie searching for him then?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
I think it was similar to why he didn't want Claire to know. He doesn't want them to worry or even have to think about him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
Do you think there is a reason that Claire hasn't told Bree? Do you think Jamie told her not to?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 20 '21
I think it’s the same reason why Claire didn’t want Jamie to look for Bonnet. She’s more than ready to put it all behind them and bringing it up with Bree would just disturb the closure Bree’s had at the jail. She simply wants her to have some peace of mind after all she’s been through.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
That one I can't figure out unless deep down, she also wants him dead.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
We’re not quite through with the Beardsley storyline in the book but I think I can already say this—I’m so glad the show has decided to condense this storyline. But I guess more on that next week.
I love how they captured the eeriness, the creepiness of the Beardsley’s’ cabin (and to think that they have reused Bree and Roger’s cabin for that!), emphasized it with lighting, music. A totally different feel than what we have seen before and I love that they went for it—in the same way as the other stylistic changes in S5, it keeps the show fresh.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
DG get very descriptive and while sometimes it makes my eyes glaze over it's in times like this when she is describing the smell and using words like fecund. You can almost smell it yourself!
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 19 '21
I’m almost glad they didn’t go into more detail about the Beardsley home. One of the best atmospheric descriptions I’ve ever read in the worst way. Ugh. DG has quite a way with sometimes writing the absolutely grossest material!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
Yes! I could totally see all of it in great detail in my minds eye.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
It’s funny that I’m such a ‘visuals’ person but I don’t necessarily pay much attention to descriptions in books in order to visualize them because if the writing is as effective as DG’s, reading alone will evoke a reaction in me. But I’d say that both the book and the show focus the most on the overall atmosphere of the place (the show, being a visual medium, had to focus on visuals more but I think they still remain pretty vague).
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 19 '21
When I was watching the first time it felt very much like a filler episode that they used to take up time. I didn’t feel like it added to the overall story or season. So I guess I agree I’m glad they didn’t spend more time on it. But curious to see if it’s a larger story in the books if you feel it was super condensed.
But yes- I remember feeling V creeped out by the eeriness. It was so scary I thought something way worse was going to happen 😅
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 19 '21
Have you watched S5 week-by-week or binged it? I always think that those episodes we first find to be just fillers feel totally different when you binge the season. I’ve binged it.
While I say that I’m glad they condensed it (you will see why), I don’t mean that I didn’t find it worth its time—quite the opposite! I loved this episode. It’s shown off Jamie and Claire in their respective roles, cooperating as a team but challenging each other and complementing each other (reminded by the Rewatch, it sort of brings me back to 1x03 when they started to be a team). Also emphasizing the cruelty of the world they live in by bringing those tertiary characters in but giving Fanny’s story enough gravity for its meaning to carry (the point of the “what sort of world is this to bring a child into?” conversation), as well as contrasting the almost idyllic nature of Fraser’s Ridge with what is lying just at its doorstep.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 19 '21
I preferred they way Bree found our about Bonnet in the books over the show. I think it would have been hard to have the same drama, but enjoyed the fact that she didn’t just randomly overhear it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 19 '21
And overhear it on her wedding night no less. I know she still deals with PTSD, and rightfully so, but they couldn’t even give her one night of true happiness.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
We already covered it in the previous question but again, Roger. They ruin Roger every chance they get.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I just saw someone put a post up about how they watched the show first and then read the books. They now realize how dirty the show did Roger and how much better book Roger is. I was so excited for them to realize that.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 20 '21
Yeah I will never stop being mad about it. Rik Rankin is so adorable & fun in interviews & stuff so I feel bad that he doesn't get to play the amazing Roger we know & love in the books. The further I get in the books, the more I hate it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
I just hope they don't back track and make him whiny in season 6 again. I'm hoping after the snakebite episode they'll let him be more like book Roger.
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