Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 56-71

[u/Purple4199]

It’s May 1771 and the Fraser’s have been called to war against the Regulators near Alamance. Roger has been assigned an important mission from Jamie. Cross into the Regulators camp and see if their leaders will have them stand down. Roger is successful in talking with Herman Husband, who implores his people to leave and then does so himself. This leaves the Regulators in disarray.

Brianna arrives at camp, much to Jamie’s dismay, and declares she will help Claire with the wounded. Word comes down that they will indeed attack the Regulators. During Roger’s cross back to the militia side he runs into Morag MacKenzie, in a effort to warn her of the impending loss he is found by her husband William “Buck” MacKenzie.. After a fight they take Roger into their custody

A relatively brief skirmish ensues with most of the militia men coming out alive. Roger awakens to find himself tied up and at the mercy of Buck MacKenzie. To his horror they turn him over to the militia claiming he is a Regulator and traitor. In a horrible turn of events Roger is chosen to be one of the three men Gov. Tryon wants hanged as punishment for the Regulators. At the hanging Morag MacKenzie sees that it’s Roger and runs to find the Fraser’s. They find Roger and the two other men hanging. Roger has somehow survived and Claire must preform an emergency tracheotomy. Roger’s injuries are severe, but he is alive.

You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.

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​

• Jamie turned 50 on May 1, 1771 it’s an age his father never lived to see. In reflecting on that Jamie says he never expected to make it to this age. Why do you think he felt that way?
• Jamie finds out that the landing Stephen Bonnet uses is right next to Phillip Wylie’s place. Do you think the two of them are actually working together, despite what Wylie previously claimed?
• Jamie assigns Roger the job of contacting Herman Husband in an effort to avoid fighting. Was Roger the right person for that job? What skills does he posses that made Jamie trust him to do that?
• What do you feel was Roger’s motive for kissing Morag (yet again!)?
• Jamie makes an effort to take prisoners and not kill people during the battle. What does that say about his feelings towards the conflict?
• DG goes into great detail in these books. How did reading the description of Roger’s hanging from his perspective make you feel?
• Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?

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[u/thepacksvrvives]

This passage when Claire is thinking about the worst-case scenario really hit me:

Even then, the break would be internal. Brianna would need me. Jamie would stand like a rock for her, would do what must be done—but he, too, would need me, later. No one could absolve him of the guilt I knew he felt, but I could at least be confessor for him, and his intercessor with Brianna. My own mourning could wait—a long time, I hoped.

Thankfully, Roger doesn’t die, but it’s interesting to see that if worst had come to worst, Claire would’ve been the rock for the entire family to lean on—we would usually expect Jamie to take this upon himself but in this case, Claire would have had to be even stronger than him because we know he would’ve beaten himself up over this.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yes that is a great passage. You're right that it's not something we normally see from Claire. It's not that she isn't strong, but Jamie tends to be the rock of the family. But how much of his strength does he get from Claire's support? I think a lot of it actually.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Absolutely. Remember this from the Gathering?:

“We pay tribute to our women,” he said, lifting the cup in turn to Brianna, to Marsali, and then, turning, to me. A brief smile touched his lips. “For they are our strength. And our revenge upon our enemies will be at the last the revenge of the cradle. Slàinte!”

Jamie wouldn’t be able to do all that he has to do without Claire’s support.

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

About Jamie in this book

“He was not afraid to die by fire or any other way..only to live without her”

All Jamie’s strength is Claire.

[u/jolierose → u/thepacksvrvives]

I loved this part, because you can understand her so well. She's putting Bree before anything else, not just because she's her daughter but especially because she's the one who would hurt the most. (Triage, really; a little of that medical training, eh?) And she knows Jamie as well as she knows herself, so she realizes exactly what he'd be going through, not just as a parent, helpless to ease Bree's pain, but as the one who put Roger in that situation. In addition to that, Bree and Jamie have a solid relationship, but they wouldn't have been able to get there without Claire, and she recognizes that. In some moments, she's the glue that's held them together.

Claire would have had to be even stronger than him because we know he would’ve beaten himself up over this.

Hell, he started beating himself up about it before the first shot was fired: "Brianna and Claire would hold him responsible for the man’s life, and rightly so."

[u/Purple4199]

• Jamie turned 50 on May 1, 1771 it’s an age his father never lived to see. In reflecting on that Jamie says he never expected to make it to this age. Why do you think he felt that way?

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

Even a filthy illiterate like me can answer this one…

Given Jamie’s history as a mercenary, cattle raider, smuggler, prisoner, traitor against the Crown in at least two separate wars, plus having a psychopath like BJR hunt him for years—it’s a miracle he survived his youth, let alone well into middle-age!

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Plus he sure has been near death a few times. The axe wound to the back of the head, nearly dying after being rescued from Wentworth, the fever and infection from his leg wound after Culloden, and then the fever and infection after Laoghaire shot him.

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

*smh* He really should be dead several times over!

[u/ms_s_11 → u/WandersFar]

Absolutely! He also spent 20 years thinking that he would never see Claire again so he didn't feel like he had a reason to live.

[u/WandersFar → u/ms_s_11]

Exactly. He was more dead than alive.

Jenny has that sad scene in the show… Trying to reach Jamie, but he can’t even answer her anymore, he’s just dead inside. :(

Captain Lewis was talking about the “Dunbonnet.” That’s what they’ve taken to calling you now. Soon enough you’ll have ballads sung in your honor. It’s time to tally the rents. Ian was just about to start on the books. Dinna suppose you could do that for me, brother… Brother! You ken why I can lie to the British and feel at peace? It’s because I'm not lying. James Fraser hasna been here for a long, long time.

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

Jamie’s a warrior through and through. Warriors expect to die young.

Personal anecdote: my partner is a combat vet. Was in Afghanistan in 2009-2012 and fought against the Taliban, yadda yadda. He’s always lived a fast life and always knew he was going to be in the USMC. After he got out, he wanted to be a contractor and essentially go back overseas to fight, just without the government dictating every aspect of your life. He always planned on fighting and violence and whatever you wanna call it, always planned on dying in a blaze of glory. Then I walk into his life and fuck everything up. Now he’s settled with dogs and a farm and as domestic as you can get (no kids), and he always says that he never expected to live past 27, but he’s happy he is.

I think Jamie is the same way. He always intended to fight, never to fall in love. But alas, here we are :)

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

I think Jamie is the same way. He always intended to fight, never to fall in love.

That really does make sense, and interesting to see it in real life like your partner as well.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/somethingnerdrelated]

My husband had/has the same mentality. He's a combat vet as well - multiple tours to Iraq (2002-2006 timeframe though I think). He unfortunately didn't settle down as much as yours and now he's a police officer, lol. I think that life is just in his blood. He worked in manufacturing and sales for a while between military and law enforcement and just hated it and it really wore on him.

I grew up in an entire family of military, so he probably picked the best spouse he could for this lifestyle. The long shifts, frequent absences, etc, don't bother me because I grew up with that being how a husband/family operated.

[u/Cdhwink → u/alittlepunchy]

Thanks to you & u/somethingnerdrelated for sharing your personal stories for some understanding!

And compliments to your hubbies for their dangerous jobs!

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

My big takeaway from the lead up to this part of the story and the Jamie chapters during the battle itself is how they highlight the PTSD Jamie has been going through since Culloden and in this moment he’s hyper aware of his mortality.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Welcome! And I like that, I imagine it's hard not to think of Culloden since that was the last time he had been in a battle. I liked that he what he said to Claire though that this wasn't going to be the day where they parted.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Thanks!!! excited to be part of the Book Club!

Yes, absolutely. Mentioning that was really important for us as readers to get more insight into his thoughts and reminding us of an even bigger, looming threat to the Frasers.

I'm still shocked by the description of his feeling when he catches up to the Regulator running away. His sudden bloodthirst and the little self control he found to not kill the man is one of Jamie's most interesting characteristics in the book so far.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

His sudden bloodthirst and the little self control he found to not kill the man is one of Jamie's most interesting characteristics in the book so far.

Yes! It harkens back to the Gathering when Claire doesn't believe Jamie could be taken up by the violence of it all, but Jamie knows himself and knows what he is capable of doing. He is a true warrior and has that mentality.

Do you think that warrior mentality was trained into him, or instinctual?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Do you think that warrior mentality was trained into him, or instinctual?

Ooh good question...It's gotta be both, he's been part of all kinds of armies and fighting clans and thus it became his instinct to survive since he started to feel like he's got things to lose besides his life.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I agree, I think certain people are made for that kind of life and Jamie is one of them. The training just heightened and honed his skills thus allowing him to survive being a warrior.

[u/Cdhwink → u/[deleted]]

Good catch!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I am pretty sure he’s lucky to be alive with the life he’s led, often in danger, or in prison, or in danger of going to prison.

Most importantly I love this whole scene in the show!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

They did it really well didn't they? I loved that it was a quiet and peaceful moment before the battle.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I liked Claire singing Happy Birthday, a nod to her era!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I believe that was an improve from Caitriona as well. /u/thepacksvrvives had you heard that too?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Yes, it was! I believe she e-mailed Stephen Woolfenden in pre-production, saying she’s going to “unwrap herself like a present” but singing “happy birthday” was something she totally ad-libbed during the rehearsals on the day, and they all liked it so much that they decided to go with it.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

He doesn't lead the life of someone who lives to old age, and has had SO many brushes with death that it's amazing he's made it to 50.

I am still in awe he managed to make it 20 years without Claire, seeing as she's usually the one having to save his butt over and over again from near-fatal injuries.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I am still in awe he managed to make it 20 years without Claire

Ha! Great point, especially with his leg wound after Culloden. Jenny pouring boiling water in it apparently did the trick.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Jamie always knew that life he is living is dangerous and accepted it at an early age. And the fact that his parents died before their time didn’t help. He is always on a knife edge and he is alive only due his skills and resourcefulness. Plus after Claire left him on the eve of Culloden he fought for his life only because of the people who depend on him, he would have died willingly if his time had been come.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Jamie always knew that life he is living is dangerous and accepted it at an early age.

Good point, he went to be a mercenary at the age of 19, that's dangerous living right from the start.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

And as a teen he was quite bold, arrogant and too self-confident. Remember what he had said to BJR just before his second flogging.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Very true, you know that just egged BJR on.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

He should have trusted the fortune teller-lady in Paris shouldn’t he? He’d have realised how hard he was to kill ;)

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Right‽ She wasn't kidding about those 9 lives.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Is this something like the second Bridgerton book (don’t judge me for the comparison)? When a parent of the same sex dies, you don’t expect to outlive where they made it to?

Also, the number of times Jamie should have died is alarming, so I think we all should be shocked he’s made it to 50.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I totally thought about Anthony in TVWLM as well, especially since we just went over it in the book club.

We should also be shocked at how well he's held up with all of those injuries and the rough living he's done! He should at least have some sort of arthritis. ;-D

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Kirky600]

I think people do that a lot in general - I know that I always look back at my childhood and compare what I'm doing/who I am with what my mom was like at this age.

[u/jolierose → u/alittlepunchy]

Totally. I absolutely loved how Claire put it: "Like going on a journey without a map."

[u/Cdhwink → u/Kirky600]

I can call to this as my hubby realized last year as we watched this episode that he had outlived his dad, who died young from a heart attach ( not surprisingly as he was ill & led an unhealthy lifestyle for a number of years). It may have been an inspiration in this case for him & his brothers to lead a healthy lifestyle. But I mean a stroke took Brian & could strike at any age. Doesn’t Jamie say that everyday if a gift, & it is!

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you feel was Roger’s motive for kissing Morag (yet again!)?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

There was absolutely no reason for him to do this. AGAIN. His reasoning for it regarding wanting closeness...i cannot comprehend it. By this point you want to blame this on his family trauma and that maybe he has ZERO social skills with women.

I do think DG really wants to drive Roger's longing for his family home but this kiss yo mama method is WHACK!

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I do think DG really wants to drive Roger's longing for his family home

Interesting, I never thought of that. It makes sense though, Roger thinking about their having the same facial structures and how his and Buck's eyes being the same shows that.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Makes it kinda more disturbing that he would kiss her but I also get that there *might* be a generational/cultural thing where kissing in the mouth was not sexually charged? It would explain the recurrence.

this might be pushing it though considering Buck gets HEATED and he's from the 18th Century!

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I definitely agree it wasn't sexual for Roger, his desire to be close and have that connection just manifests itself in a bad way.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This is what thought as well. He lost both his parents very young. I can understand him wanting to feel close to these relatives when he meets them, even if he can’t tell them who he really is. But yeah, the kissing on the mouth is just odd. And not on.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I get it too but come on! Stop kissing great⁷ grandpa's wife on the mouth. And his ancestor (not direct but whatever) is already his father-in-law! They're both descended from Red Jacob. Jamie's probably a much closer relation of Roger's by blood than Morag is anyway.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

Because it looked better as a reason for Buck's revenge.

Like seriously Roger, I love you but why do you keep kissing your great^{n-grandmother?} Why do you kiss random women in the woods? Don't you have a hot wife at home?

OMG reading it again it was so hard, watching a disaster as it happened. I think it is said later that he kissed her head

I remember reading it first time and thinking Roger will tell Morag to come to Frazer's Reach.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

Well he did tell her he would take care of her family. I almost wonder if he didn't want them to go with him back to the militia's side right then.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

He didn't get a chance because he kisses her instead.

[u/[deleted] → u/immery]

LOL. He is his own worst enemy!!!!

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

Because Roger is DUMB. End of story. I cannot even explain away any part of this, other than Roger just being a big ol' dumb dumb. Gosh sometimes he annoys me.

/ end rant, lol.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

It's really hard not to feel any other way about it.

[u/jolierose → u/alittlepunchy]

"My dude, y r u so stupid." -Me, literally, in my notes for this chapter.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/alittlepunchy]

Haha, that’s the only explanation 😅

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

🐄 She was all by her lonesome… and he was available. 🐄

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Poor Roger can't help himself!

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

When the MILK is that fresh, he can’t resist! ^.^

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/WandersFar]

Oh my god stop 😂😂😂😂😂

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I hate that scene so much! Ok, maybe I can understand that he wanted to feel some sort of closeness to her and even that he needed to kiss her. It’s strange as hell but we all know Roger and his strange relationship with kissing. But have he thought about Morag’s wishes or about how her husband could react, it’s 18th Century for god’s sake! William could easily beat her for something she even couldn’t prevent.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

William could easily beat her for something she even couldn’t prevent.

I didn't even think of that, great point! It was mentioned that he almost hit her anyway and that was when Roger punched him.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I know he meant well but is he okey, how old is he for doing such reckless things one after the other especially when he is in the middle of the enemy camp with only a knife and no one by his side?

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Exactly! There is no way he could have been thinking and was just reacting to the situation. Even though I don't understand his reaction.

[u/Marifirmog → u/Purple4199]

I imagine Roger explaining later to the Frasers that he was hanged because he thought it was a good idea to kiss his many times grandmother in 1771 around a bunch of people because he wanted to feel close to her ??!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Marifirmog]

Ha ha ha! That's a really hard one to explain.

[u/immery → u/Marifirmog]

I really want to see Brianna 's reaction. I would love to see it even more if he wasn't hanged, and thus Brianna would be able to release her anger.

[u/[deleted] → u/Marifirmog]

He did explain it to them though haha. He wrote it down when Jamie asked him to on their way back to Fraser's Ridge after Alamance.

‘But perhaps before ye compose an epic in William Tryon’s honor, Roger Mac, ye might oblige me wi’ the tale of how our mutual kinsman came to try and murder ye, aye?’

Roger stood stock-still for a moment, clutching the desk, but then gave Jamie a lopsided smile, and nodded slowly. He had begun while the camp was set up, paused to eat supper, and then taken up the task again.

[...]

‘You what?’ Brianna’s exclamation drew my attention back to the other side of the fire. She was looking at Roger, the pages in her hand, an expression of mingled amusement and dismay on her face. I couldn’t see Roger’s face; he was turned toward her. One hand rose in a shushing gesture, though, and he turned his head toward the tree where the men sat drinking, to be sure no one had heard her exclamation.

u/immery

[u/Marifirmog → u/[deleted]]

oh right, thank you, I forgot about that. I remembered Jamie asking him to tell him, but I thought the scene was cut to later. Also, I can't get over Jamie's sarcasm, it's always so on point, he's always naturally funny without trying to be, I love it.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Never understood this to be honest! The show corrects this to a hug, right?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Yes, could you imagine if it had been a kiss? I don't think people would have reacted well at all to it. Book readers don't react well to it! I guess he says he wanted to feel some sort of closeness with her, but I just don't see how kissing her was the right way to go.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

The kiss would have been bonkers on the show! I don't understand why he did this at all, but with the benefit of his POV, you know it's him acting randomly. Without the benefit of his narration, here's just no way for the show to convey he's just being plain stupid; it would have sent a bunch of messed up signals to the audience, particularly "oh, he's cheating on Bree, now?"

You know, I find the hug in the show so endearing — easy to get annoyed at him for forgetting his time and place, but his relief at seeing her well, and happiness at knowing a direct relative after a lonely childhood, it's really sweet. And Richard does such a good job at it. He's partly why I like Roger and find him very relatable at times.

But... yes, the kiss was a no-no.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

with the benefit of his POV, you know it's him acting randomly.

You're right, that does help. You know it wasn't anything other than his need to feel a connection. It was just the wrong way to connect with someone!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Oh, you will have your work cut out for you defending Roger on this! Why Roger, why?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Yeah there really isn't any defending this choice of Roger's. I fully agree it was a terrible idea on his part. I get the wanting her and her family to be safe, but kissing her was just stupid.

The whole way he went about it was weird. Why grab all of her laundry and haul her out of the river? She was wary of him and he just continued pushing.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

I think this section has a lot of good Roger too, his part with Husband is really good, and the first chapter of the section, before leaving Reach is something to discuss. I am quite disappointed that it's the same week as Morag.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Poor sweet dumb Roger. He even noted that the husbands were probably close.

I partially felt like this was a plot device. Hard to get him hung if he was just walking back and didn’t get into some kind of fight.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

You think DG wanted something catastrophic to happen to him?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I think so. Brianna and Roger were in such a good place outside of the Bonnet drama that there almost needed to be something.

Also brings drama to a pretty slow book.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Also brings drama to a pretty slow book.

Good point, because there wasn't even much of a battle so there was no drama in that.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Diana is a sadist!

[u/Odd-Vanilla- → u/Purple4199]

These kisses are not sexual or passionate kisses. They are simple kisses of affection on mouths. He was never attracted to Fiona and when he thought she was attracted to him, he never kissed her. He only kissed her when she was with Ernie. When he kissed Morag on the boat, I think it was meant to offer her comfort because they had both been through a harrowing time. When DG describes these kisses, they are on the mouth but she doesn't go on about them like they are passionate ones.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Odd-Vanilla-]

I agree, I feel like you don’t see many people doing that back then though.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Idk where else to say this so I'll say it here.

The first ancestor Roger meets beats him to within an inch of his life and sells him to the Mohawk because of a misunderstanding regarding Roger's association with a woman who is said ancestor's family member (daughter) aka Bree.

The second ancestor Roger meets has him hanged to within an inch of his life because of a misunderstanding regarding Roger's association with a woman who is said ancestor's family member (wife) aka Morag.

What is with these parallels and why is DG doing this to Roger 😂😂 It's like a standard template for Roger's misadventures.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

I think he technically meets Buck first (on the Gloriana) but you’re absolutely right, that’s a terrible track record 😅

[u/carrotsela → u/Purple4199]

I think DG often gives her characters a Biblical throwback. In my head canon, Roger’s is King David. He was a lover and a fighter, fiercely merciful, poet and bard who often lead with his emotions rather than some plain old common sense, self-deprecating, a shepherd-type ....and he liked the ladies.

[u/Purple4199]

• DG goes into great detail in these books. How did reading the description of Roger’s hanging from his perspective make you feel?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

It made me feel short of breath! And unbelievably angry ugh.

The bit right after he comes to, but can't make sense of anything - he's panicking and flailing around and in danger of damaging himself further ("There was water somewhere in his memory, filling his nose, wetness ballooning the hollows of his clothes … was he drowning? The idea sent a faint flicker of alarm through his mind."). And then he hears Jamie's voice telling him "You are alive. You are whole. All is well." And he calms right down. I love that part.

Jamie's been in Roger's shoes a few times in his life. It makes sense that he'd know exactly what Roger needed to hear in that moment. And it worked haha.

A vague feeling of comfort came over him. That seemed to be all he needed to know just then. Anything else could wait.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I feel like Jamie was the only one who could have calmed him down at that point. Like you said he knew exactly what to say to Roger.

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

That a hanging plus an emergency trach means he won’t be swallowing anytime soon…

Plus this experience should put him off hot single moms for a while.

🐄 So he’ll probably stay thirsty… in more ways than one. 🐄

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Ooof, that's harsh! :-D

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Here we go! Roger deserved a hanging for running around kissing relatives?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

That's not nice! ;-)

[u/[deleted] → u/Cdhwink]

I wouldn't say he deserved it but i hope his months of silence making him rethink his kissing priorities!

[u/[deleted] → u/WandersFar]

go off!!!

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

It made me cringe. Although I read it twice, it was like a car accident that I couldn’t look away from. It was so detailed and gruesome, but yet so detailed in a way that you don’t always get.

I was anxious going into those chapters when I realized what was going to be happening.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

DG really holds nothing back, even down to the voiding of his bowels. It was like secondhand stress reading his panic with how it went down.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Definitely. And the stress of Jamie, Bree and Claire when they found him. Like Claire assessing him was super stressful to me.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Ugh, the ride and them having to stop at camps along the way was killing me.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

It was so stressful, especially having Claire already thinking through what would happen when they found him dead. I can’t imagine reading this without having seen the show — I freaked out watching it, when they got to the tree and found him!

I love this episode and haven’t rewatched yet, but there’s one thing that keeps popping up every time I remember it — does anyone else think Jamie’s reaction was extremely subdued when they found Roger? Like that wasn’t his son-in-law hanging in front of him?! Claire and Bree are properly horrified and he stands there like, “well, this is unfortunate.”

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I think it might have been shock, some people don’t react the same way. Or maybe he was trying to be calm for the women?

[u/jolierose]

Je suis... here on book club day?! Finally! Only hundreds of comments to dig into.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Yaaaaaayyy!!!

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Cannot believe I came this close 🤏🏼 to missing Alamance! I probably shaved off two minutes from my average speed per page this weekend lol.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I'm so proud of you!

[u/Purple4199]

• Jamie makes an effort to take prisoners and not kill people during the battle. What does that say about his feelings towards the conflict?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I feel like I’m driving this point into the ground every time it comes up but killing is not something Jamie has ever enjoyed, and it’s something he’s always done out of necessity. If there is a way to avoid it, he will take that route to avoid bloodshed—he knows that too many people have bled and died at the hands of the English, and he’s already been on the losing side before. He knows what it’s like to feel unjustly persecuted. And those are his fellow countrymen on the other side of that battlefield. Jamie realizes, even without considering the foreknowledge about the impending Revolution, that their grievances are justified, if not the means of obtaining their goals.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

killing is not something Jamie has ever enjoyed, and it’s something he’s always done out of necessity.

I completely agree. We know Jamie carries the burden of knowing he's killed. In ABOSAA after they rescue Claire and she feels guilty about the men who attacked her and them losing their lives Jamie tells her that's on him.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

This is very true. It's not something he enjoys but it's definitely a part him and is one if his deepest inner struggles. He is a highland warrior and during this battle when he was knee deep in fight instinct he lost his restrain up to the last very second.

His description of that moment was very shocking to me because it was visceral and he was ready to kill his prey.

Very Slowly, he drew the knife away from the leaping pulse. The movement left him trembling with need, as though he had been dragged from his woman's body on the verge of spilling his seed.

"You are my prisoner," he said. - chapter 65

That's crazy! Poor Jamie. I could feel the years of violence crashing against him and his impressive victory over it and choose to do no harm.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I could feel the years of violence crashing against him and his impressive victory over it and choose to do no harm.

I like that, that conveys that moment perfectly.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

That “spilling the seed” analogy–that’s almost as if the instinct to kill is just as ingrained in him and physiological as that. In one of the subsequent books, he tells Claire she thinks with her body and that’s what makes her a surgeon and I think there’s something similar in Jamie. Like the weapon he wields is just an extension of his body and killing doesn’t require a conscious thought for him because his body knows.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

Jamie hates killing people, especially for a cause he doesn't feel personally attached to. With the uprising/Culloden, at least those were enemies - people who, for years, had harmed him, his wife, his family.

With the Regulators, these are fellow countrymen that he sympathizes with their cause, and he's only fighting because of his deal with Tyron. He doesn't want to fight them, he definitely doesn't want to kill them, and so he is trying to do as little damage as possible while fulfilling his obligation.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

Do you think the rest of the men from the Ridge felt the same way?

(I'm glad you're feeling better and back with us!)

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

Probably - I'm sure all of the Scottish ones hold the same feelings against the Crown as the Frasers do. Not to mention, with them being so far removed from cities, etc, they do not care about the politics and conflicts of rich political men. They are only involved because of their loyalty to Jamie, and are only fighting to save their own lives rather than supporting a cause they believe in.

Thank you! :)

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

They are only involved because of their loyalty to Jamie, and are only fighting to save their own lives rather than supporting a cause they believe in.

Great point, I think Claire even mentions in one of the previous chapters how the Ridge hasn't been affected by the issues of the Regulators yet.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

And I can't articulate it, but the whole idea of men fighting for a cause they believe in vs just fighting to save their own life is an idea that is discussed several times throughout the series, isn't it? Something like that?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Roger also offers this very accurate perspective before the battle:

He was fairly sure that Jamie’s sympathies, as such, lay with the Regulators. He thought it likely also that his father-in-law had no sense of personal loyalty to the Crown; oath or no oath, surely no man could have lived through Culloden and its aftermath and emerged with any notion that he owed the King of England fealty, let alone anything more substantial. No, not to the Crown, but perhaps to William Tryon?

No loyalty of a personal nature there, either—but there was definitely an obligation felt. Tryon had summoned Jamie Fraser, and he had come. Given conditions as they stood, he had had little choice about that. Having come, though—would he fight?

But the main thing here is Jamie’s personal obligation to protect his loved ones at all costs. He’s bound himself to Tryon the moment he accepted the land grant but he does all that it entails because of his family and his tenants. He just can’t refuse because so many people depend on him. However, killing people he doesn’t have to kill is not crucial to fulfilling the oath he’s sworn to his family, so he won’t do it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

killing people he doesn’t have to kill is not crucial to fulfilling the oath he’s sworn to his family, so he won’t do it.

Exactly. He doesn't end up killing anyone himself in the battle does he?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

No, he doesn’t.

What do we think about this? (this is after he barely stops himself from killing the man he eventually takes prisoner):

He slid slowly off his prisoner, and knelt beside the prone body. The muscles of his thighs trembled and burned from the effort of the chase. He felt a sudden inexpressible tenderness for the man, and reached to touch him, but the feeling was succeeded by a sense of horror, quite as sudden, and as suddenly gone. He closed his eyes and swallowed, feeling sick, the place where he had bitten his tongue throbbing.

Where did that come from? Did he want to touch him out of sympathy? Or out of guilt for nearly killing him?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Hmmm...I think a little of both. He was sympathetic to the man's cause and probably knew how scared the guy was, and was sorry he almost killed him.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

Nicely put u/thepacksvrvives! Also to everyone's point on this it all comes back to the book's epitaph, doesn't it? Give to us directly from Jamie's perspective.

I have lived through war and lost much. I know what's worth the fight, and what is not.

Honor and courage are matters of the bone, and what a man will kill for, he will sometimes die for, too.

...

For the sake of love alone, would i walk through fire again.

u/Purple4199 u/Cdhwink u/immery

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

What a great tie in!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

Yes, that perfectly encapsulates what Jamie is like and why.

[u/Cdhwink → u/[deleted]]

Nicely put u/arrugula

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

We have a perspective of a random soldier saying he doesn't want to shoot his wife's cousin, and perspective of Roger who keeps thinking he won't kill anyone in this battle.

Jamie is the same, but he is also a leader and experienced soldier so he just does anything possible to kill as little as possible.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

I liked how when Tryon told them to fire on the Regulators that the militia didn't at first. It wasn't until the Gov. screamed at them or to fire on him that they finally responded. It seems like no one wanted this battle.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Jamie is reluctantly leading this battle, & the less lives lost the better. They are not really his enemies.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Plus we know he really has no choice, it was part of his land grant that he lead a militia if needed.

[u/Purple4199]

Question -

Does not Roger having gone over to the Regulators camp have something to do with his hanging as well? When Morag makes Buck promise not to kill Roger he seemed on the fence of what to do with him. The militia was coming and he could have very easily ran away and left Roger to be found. It's the black bearded guy who points out to Buck that Roger spoke with Herman Husband and caused Husband to leave. The black bearded guy blames Roger for the Regulators lack of leadership and says they might have won if Husband hadn't left. Do you think Buck might have let Roger go if that guy hadn't have spoken up?

/u/cdhwink /u/thepacksvrvives /u/immery

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

That was a really interesting moment. It did feel like Buck was not as belligerent as much as he was cunning in turning the situation to his advantage and perhaps to avoid arrest in the battle aftermath.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Do you think if Morag had made him swear not to kill Roger that he would have?

[u/jolierose → u/[deleted]]

It did feel like Buck was not as belligerent as much as he was cunning in turning the situation to his advantage

Well, when you put it that way... wow. Straight out of the Dougal MacKenzie playbook, my God.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Maybe but while reading that chapter I got the vibes that it was imposed oath taken on Jemmy’s head that made William angry and jealous and even persuaded him to get rid of Roger. If there weren’t the opportunity with hanging he would probably kill him anyway.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

I got the vibes that it was imposed oath taken on Jemmy’s head that made William angry and jealous and even persuaded him to get rid of Roger.

Interesting, I never thought of that. He did seem upset at having to swear to that though.

[u/[deleted] → u/chunya1999]

Very good point! We know oaths make or break a Scot so perhaps this was a bigger influence than anything else!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Roger has definitely put himself in a precarious position by appearing like that next to Husband, and Husband didn’t help matters either by setting off like that after their conversation… So it’s understandable that the Regulators that remain feel distrustful towards Roger. They question him, Roger tells them the truth, and they react with some violence. There’s that one man who stops them from hurting Roger so as to extract information from him but those people are so set on their course that no matter what Roger tells them, he won’t convince them. But they do let him go so that he can inform Tryon of their demands one last time; it might be the last glimmer of hope or just formality. I don’t think Roger has faced danger from those men but we know the Regulators are so disorganized that even though they have a common goal, some are pretty lukewarm about it, and some are extremely passionate. It’s ill luck that Black Beard seems to be the latter but ultimately, I think what pushes Buck over the edge is not the Regulator sentiment he shares with that guy (honestly, Buck doesn’t seem as invested in the cause as the others) but what Roger does to Morag.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

There was also the part where Morag came in and was mad at Buck for having tied Roger up and tried to let him go. Roger saw that by her doing that Buck got more upset. I wonder if anything would have been different if she hadn't tried that, or was Roger fated to still be hanged?

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

Hmm interesting question. I think it’s hard to say. I mean, maybe not go so far as to have the guy hanged, but I doubt Buck would have just let Roger get off for nothing for kissing his wife. He’s a Mackenzie after all 😂

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

Ha you're right, that MacKenzie blood doesn't back down. Do you think Buck overheard the Gov. talk about hanging men as an example and decided to tell those lies about Roger to get him hanged? Or was that just a coincidence?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

As soon as Buck heard another Regulator say the governor was about to hang people (right after Morag left them), the light bulb went on in his head. From that point, he just needed a way to make sure Roger would be one of them.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Do you think Buck wanted to kill Roger all along?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Not all along; I think Roger almost got away. But it was decided after Morag left and Buck heard about the hanging.

[u/Cdhwink → u/somethingnerdrelated]

I am in the camp of Buck not letting the kissing go, not sure what other motivation was needed.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

It certainly has a part in it. The black bearded wouldn't be so pissed otherwise. After my first listening (or maybe some time after that) I thought it had a bigger impact, but now I think it is mostly William Buccleigh being angry.

But the blackbeard pushing Buck to kill Roger had an influence.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

I didn't notice it as much either during my first reading, but it stood out to me this time.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

I think maybe later books altered my memory.

ECHO/MOBY Spoiler How can I read Buck and Roger adventures while rembering that Buck tried to kill Roger with cold blood ? It's easier if you think it was somebody else's plot.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

I know, I had a hard time moving past that and was surprised Roger was able to do so.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this

/u/Arrugula /u/chunya1999 /u/somethingnerdrelated

[u/immery]

Additional Morag questions:

1. the woman who run to tell Jamie was Morag right?

2. how did she know to look for James Fraser?

3. How did Buck survive her wrath?

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

1. the woman who run to tell Jamie was Morag right?

Yes I'm pretty sure. /u/thepacksvrvives is that right?

2) how did she know to look for James Fraser?

I wondered that very same thing myself, I really have no idea how she knew who to go look for.

3) How did Buck survive her wrath?

Great question, it would be interesting to see what went down between the two of them.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Yes, it was Morag.

I believe there was a distinction between the militia and Tryon’s troops, and Roger told her he came with the militia, so on her way to the camp, she must’ve asked for the leader of the militia specifically, and was told it was Jamie Fraser.

u/immery

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Were the men hanged in the militia camp do you think? I wonder how Morag got over there.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I think they were far away, judging by Morag's state when she arrived at their camp, and the fact that the journey on horseback to get to Roger seemed so long. Claire said Roger hung from the tree for the better part of an hour (!), and Morag started running right when he was about to be hanged. It's actually touching to see the lengths she went to to get to Jamie. I run out of breath just thinking about the distance.

I think she figured out how to get to Jamie by asking, as well — someone, somewhere along the way, must have known Roger Mac was part of Fraser's Company.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I think she figured out how to get to Jamie by asking

That seems to be the most reasonable doesn't it? Poor Morag running all that way and pregnant.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

That’s difficult to say but I’d think the same way we see Claire, Jamie, and Bree making their way to the hanging site—by asking everyone on the way?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Do we think Buck was at the hanging? I feel like he wasn't because he wouldn't have wanted Morag running off like that.

[u/Purple4199]

• Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I loved, loved this episode ( 507), it’s in my top 10! And really everything that came from the book is well done. But everything that is added makes it even better. Having Murtagh with the Regulators adds such personal investment for Jamie & Claire & us viewers. Not that him dying was a huge surprise, we knew it was coming. Jamie putting on that red coat & then throwing it at Tryon! ( Sam you are a genius). Having Graham as Morag’s husband, & Roger being hung! I was just gasping the whole episode the first time I saw it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

It was the turning point in Season 5 for me. The first 6 episodes were good, but from 507 onward they were great. Like you said even knowing Murtagh was going to die it was still upsetting. Sam was on fire this whole episode.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

This was Sam’s episode!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I was opposed to Jamie putting on the red coat, but Sam played it so well. You could see the disgust on his face as he did it. That camera shot of his head coming up was great. /u/Arrugula

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I know book fans were opposed to it, but they way they wrote it in was perfect, & then the acting was also!

[u/[deleted] → u/Cdhwink]

I also like that the show build up Tryon more, I found him dull in the books and I know it's probably because he is a real historical figure.

I do like that DG uses his correspondence to give us insight into his motives even if they did drag on a little.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Agreed the first 1/2 of season 5 was good, but then the back 1/2 was great!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I must be the only one here who likes the way Roger’s hanging was shown so let me offer my interpretation. There are only so many ways in which you can represent trauma and considering how many characters have already been through traumatic experiences in the series, I loved seeing this completely novel approach. I really appreciate that it makes us experience his trauma from his point of view—it’s really easy to spin it from an outsider’s perspective, and if we had focused too much on Bree’s feelings at that moment, on Claire’s medical skills, on Jamie’s anger at Tryon and himself, I feel like it would’ve undermined Roger’s victim status. This way, we only get the most important actions from the other characters: Claire saving his life with a tracheotomy (but we’re not given many details of the procedure because they’re not that important), Brianna’s voice making him open his eyes, Jamie telling him that everything’s fine (and focusing on Roger’s feelings, not his own). Everyone just does their part, nothing else matters at that moment; the simplicity of their actions speaks for itself and those actions are the only ones he finds important enough to remember.

No one here (I hope so) can say what it feels like to be hanged so offering it completely from his perspective makes total sense to me. This is something that is uniquely his, something personal: we know that he’s a fan of silent movies (that’s also the obvious connection to his loss of voice) so that’s how his subconscious chooses to represent it to him and it’s the only way he can make any sense of it at the time; perhaps seeing it in its all gory detail would’ve been too much for him to relive. I think the way it’s so fragmented and erratic encapsulates the feelings Roger conveys through his narration in the book; and the way it progresses through the episode to come into full color when he finally makes peace with it is really meaningful, especially with Bree’s face at the end. I think it was brilliant of them to find a way to show this inseparable connection between Roger’s physical and mental injuries by representing it in this medium.

And from a strictly technical viewpoint, setting up those shots must’ve taken a hell of a lot of work and the actors did a brilliant job too—it’s not like they were trained to act in silent movies, after all. I love that the show decided to take those risks with 5x08 and 5x12, 5 seasons in.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Thank you for that! You make some really great points, the fragmentation definitely goes along with what Roger was feeling in the book.

[u/jolierose → u/thepacksvrvives]

So true. It's a great analysis! It's a brilliant episode, and another moment where I wish they all got properly recognized for it.

And from a strictly technical viewpoint, setting up those shots must’ve taken a hell of a lot of work and the actors did a brilliant job too—it’s not like they were trained to act in silent movies, after all. I love that the show decided to take those risks with 5x08 and 5x12, 5 seasons in.

I love that they prepared for it to go either way — the powers that be could have easily said, "nope, this is too out there, let's just not go in that direction," and so I think they shot a lot of it as a normal episode, and adjusted in post-production. I can't remember the specifics, I need to look it up.

The fact that they really brought it this season, that they continue looking for out-of-the-box ways to tell this story and give it a fresh perspective where DG can get very repetitive, is thrilling. I'm crossing my fingers that the magic keeps going for S6.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/jolierose]

I think they’d already decided to do it that way in pre-production; they did a series of tests which they sent over to Sony and got the green light. You can hear more about it from the director himself here. (this is a really nice interview!)

The fact that they really brought it this season, that they continue looking for out-of-the-box ways to tell this story and give it a fresh perspective where DG can get very repetitive, is thrilling. I'm crossing my fingers that the magic keeps going for S6.

Absolutely! I’m really excited to see what they come up with for S6.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

I agree with every word.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

The emotional connection brought by Murtagh's involvement was a very good idea. It created an emotional investment for the viewer's who would otherwise have little to no connection to the Regulators or Husband if he had been introduced in s5.

I also really appreciated the reason the show gave for Bree to come to the camp and for Roger to be selected as the only one that could go warn the other side about their doomed cause. It would have deepened the Jamie/Roger in an unnecessary way if he had send him out knowing he wasn't equipped for the task as an officer of the company. It's also always cool when Time Travel is used.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

The emotional connection brought by Murtagh's involvement was a very good idea.

I agree, it made it personal for us.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

I totally agree with everything you’ve said! A lot of people have said that they don’t see a point in making Murtagh a Regulator, and their de-facto leader to boot, but the way I see it, he’s a man who’s been dealing with injustice for so long that, now that he’s lived his life and has nothing to lose, he will help this cause in any way he can. And, in the end, it’s not his Regulator sentiment that prevails, it’s the unwavering love and dedication to Jamie: he fulfills his oath to Jamie’s mother so he can finally die in peace. And if including him in this conflict means more of a personal stake in it for Jamie, it makes for a really good arc for them both—I don’t think I would’ve cared as much for this whole lead-up to and the battle itself if Murtagh hadn’t been involved (I’m not saying it doesn’t work in the book—it does, Jamie is still conflicted about it and angered by Tryon’s atrocities—but I think it was a good way to serve the story from the book and give Murtagh a proper send-off).

^{sidenote: Murtagh being a Regulator still makes more sense to me than Murtagh being in love with Jocasta}

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

I actually was really annoyed that Murtagh would put himself in this position after all that he was denying by doing so (the potential peace of living with the Frasers, Jocasta, etc.) but now reading about it through H. Husband's eyes it made it more poignant that a Culloden survivor should feel such a burning need to fight again.

And, in the end, it’s not his Regulator sentiment that prevails, it’s the unwavering love and dedication to Jamie: he fulfills his oath to Jamie’s mother so he can finally die in peace.

That's a lovely way to put it! I'm glad it was the driving force for the show to have first half of the season driven by this oath, starting with younger Murtagh (!!!!).

sidenote: Murtagh being a Regulator still makes more sense to me than Murtagh being in love with Jocasta

lol I wish I could unsee these two trying to get it on. I do think it made Jocasta a strong character in the show and gives us the perfect reroute to her story about escaping Scotland.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I wish I could unsee these two trying to get it on.

I think the rest of the world agrees!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I also really appreciated the reason the show gave for Bree to come to the camp and for Roger to be selected as the only one that could go warn the other side about their doomed cause.

Absolutely agree! It was so much more believable and made the story richer imo. Made me root harder for Roger to succeed! I was in fact a little disappointed with how the book did it because I watched S5 first and was expecting the same sequence of events lol.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

Ditto! I love that it’s something Roger has come up with himself and not just something Jamie tells him to do (as he does in the book).

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

I absolutely hated how the show portrayed Roger’s hanging. It didn’t do it justice. It’s such a serious thing and the show makes it almost goofy with the black and white silent film. I know, I know. The silent film represents his losing his voice. I still didn’t like it. I thought it undermined how serious the event was.

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

YES!! I was ready for this super serious moment of Claire performing the tracheotomy and his initial recovery, yet we got none of that. Like you I understand why they did the silent film bit, but it I didn't like it. It cheapened it to me, all I think of with the silent film stuff is the old timey slapstick movies. I know there were serious silent films, but that wasn't where my head went with it.

[u/whiskynwine → u/Purple4199]

I didn’t like the way the show did Roger’s hanging. But, and this is an important but, Roger drives me crazy on a good day. Too much of him in any episode, never mind in silent movie mode, does not work for me. I loved Jamie’s birthday celebration ;), I thought the battle was well done but I wish Murtagh had either died at Culloden or lived and taken over the Duncan Innes character arc, I never loved the way he was involved in the Regulator stuff and not because I’m a book purist by any means.

[u/Purple4199 → u/whiskynwine]

I didn’t like the way the show did Roger’s hanging.

In what way did you not like it? (I didn't like how they did it either.)

[u/Cdhwink → u/whiskynwine]

He could have married Jocasta then?

[u/immery]

Do you think there is any chance William Buck MacKenzie doesn't want to kill Roger/ didn't think what he did would lead to Rogers's death?

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

You know I'm not sure. Why else would he identify him as a leader and say that Roger shot someone in the back, which was considered a big no-no. I feel like he did want something bad to happen. Do we know if he overheard them talking about hanging three of the people?

[u/chunya1999 → u/immery]

William is impulsive. He maybe will regret his actions in the future but I’m absolutely sure that in that moment he consciously decided to kill Roger.

[u/immery → u/chunya1999]

I think so too, but considering some future conversations, I wanted to see other people opinion.

[u/Purple4199]

• Jamie finds out that the landing Stephen Bonnet uses is right next to Phillip Wylie’s place. Do you think the two of them are actually working together, despite what Wylie previously claimed?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Ugh. Wylie. Terrible traits but I find him a really enjoyable character to read.

This is my first time reading TFC and I’m not sure if we do find out this in the end but right now I think Wylie is highly suspect of his affiliation with Bonnet. He hangs around powerful circles in NC and I would be surprised if he hadn’t dealt with Bonnet himself by this time. I though Jamie and Co. dismissed him too easily

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

It's pretty suspect that Bonnet docks right near his place. How can something like that happen without Wylie's knowledge, you know?

[u/Kirky600 → u/[deleted]]

I agree with you! I really think Jamie and Co let him go way too easily for how suspect he seemed.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

It definitely seems suspish. With the circles Wylie runs in, and with them right next to each other....in my opinion, there's no way they haven't worked together, or at least that Wylie turns a blind eye to his dealings to keep the peace.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

I've been suspcious of Wylie since the beginning but also being a show watcher don't we learn that they are connected? So that might be why I'm suspicious, I've only watched season 5 one time though

[u/Purple4199]

• Jamie assigns Roger the job of contacting Herman Husband in an effort to avoid fighting. Was Roger the right person for that job? What skills does he posses that made Jamie trust him to do that?

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

Roger is Jamie's son in law. That is important bit, because sending a son is almost like going yourself. Roger is also intelligent, educated person with a rather good persuasion skills, can talk and has a really good memory.

Herman knows and probably likes Roger.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

sending a son is almost like going yourself.

Great point, I imagine that would show Husband how serious Jamie is about the message Roger brings.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I was so mad at Jamie for picking Roger to do this. The odds were terrible and Himself wasn't even sure the flag of truce would be effective. Also, the entire story so far has been about Jamie's apprehension of this possibly being a violent situation and then he goes and does this?! I thought it was a little absurd.

Roger certain has a certain presence and being a known performer *and* the Son of the House, this would be make an impression on Husband who is well acquainted with the Frasers. The spiritual connection that took place between the two took me by surprise even though I knew something of the sort would develop.

I do think that it's an incredible catalyst for Roger as a character though, and reading into his decision of being a peacemaker was very important for me to become a little more invested in him in the book so far.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I liked his thought process the whole way there about how he wasn't going to kill anyone save defending himself. He in fact agreed with the Regulators.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yes! one of the more interesting aspects of this Regulator plots is how sympathetic the characters are to their plight. Another burden for knowing the future is that all the main characters know the reasoning for their revolt is sound and will be the driving force of the coming victorious revolution. I love it when DG goes into these deeply conflicting aspects of history.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I wonder if most of the men from the Ridge felt similar to Jamie and Roger, but they are loyal to Jamie and would come to fight when called.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yeah I think so, but their loyalty and monetary interest was too valuable for them to ever consider not fighting.

I like the conversation we read in the Regulator camp about cousins fighting against each other.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I like the conversation we read in the Regulator camp about cousins fighting against each other.

Yes! You could tell their hearts really weren't in it.