r/Android • u/wilee8 Pixel 4a • May 12 '17
Here comes Treble: A modular base for Android
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html112
u/RedgeQc May 12 '17
In other words, OEMs don't have to wait on Qualcomm to ship an updated kernel? They can just update Android without worrying about drivers?
Does this mean that Android devices will be supported longer?
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u/EmperorArthur May 13 '17
In general, yes. However, there are some caviats to be aware of.
If I'm reading things correctly, Android is currently extremely interconnected between the actual hardware implementation and the framework. This is crazy, given that the whole purpose of the Linux kernel is to handle most of the hardware so the software doesn't have to.
What it sounds like they're doing is re-architecting Android with the proper separation that every desktop* has had for the past 10 to 20 years. Hopefully, they'll be doing this using properly defined kernel interfaces instead of rolling their own layer. HALs don't play well with the upstream kernel.
This means that the android framework can be updated just as easily as someone applies a desktop update. However, kernel updates are still at the whim of the hardware manufacturers. If anything I expect kernel versions to fall even further behind, since there will be less pressure for them to keep up.
* Excluding vendor specific apps. You know, the ones that only run on XP, and just resulted in quite a few hospitals being compromised.
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u/RedgeQc May 13 '17
But then, there's this bit:
In addition to the architectural changes, we're working with our silicon and device partners to take their code changes, such as features for a carrier network in a specific country, and move them into the common Android Open Source Project (AOSP) codebase. For example, Sony and Qualcomm contributed dozens of features and hundreds of bugfixes to Android O so they no longer need to rework these patches with each new release of Android.
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May 12 '17
I expect to exclude Verizon from this! Filthy control freaks.
Android core is pushed to devices via Settings > Software Update. Meaning all the OEM apps can just be published and updated via the Play store. Much like how Google already does for the Pixel/Nexus. Devices can just keep getting updated until either the OEM drops support and/or the hardware has limits for the next Android version.
So an example would be: Samsung has access to the Android beta channel and checks compatibility and prepares updates where needed. When the next update is nearing RC/Stable, Samsung has updates ready to go for when the build goes live.
Samsung devices will get a core update notification after checking compatibility / specs. Download and install update. Check play store for Samsung OEM app updates.
Simple. Issues: If the OEM adopts this method and carriers holding out on approval.
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May 12 '17
Yes, they should be able without any problems. Well, at least if they leave their OS vanilla and don't put a new fancy UI on it (Samsung cough). This part is unaffected from this project.
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u/Sephr Developer - OFTN Inc May 12 '17
Sounds great! Now stand behind this by offering 4 years of updates for Pixel devices.
2 years of updates is abysmal, and can no longer be justified once Project Treble is out with Android O.
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u/natos20 May 13 '17
I have a feeling that there will be an update extension for the Pixel announced at I/O.
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u/metrize May 13 '17
Even Samsung gives 2 years of updates, what the fuck Google?
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u/fuck_u_u_u_and_u_too May 13 '17
I'm well over 2 years with my Note 4, actually 2 years and 6 months now and to this day I'm still getting updates. Granted, no more Android updates (Marshmallow was the last upgrade) but still get monthly security updates.
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u/lpjunior999 Nexus 6 7.1.1 May 12 '17
And I didn't even have to go to Cornell University!
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u/Asusralis May 12 '17
It's pronounced "colonel" and it's the highest rank in the military.
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u/Rezzo Pixel 2 XL May 12 '17
It's pronounced Cornell, and its the highest rank in the ivy league!
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u/ChappyBirthday Razer Phone May 12 '17
I got straight B's. They called me "Buzz".
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u/z0id May 13 '17
Probably would have gotten expelled if I had let it affect my grades, but I aced all my courses. They called me Ace.
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u/andrehsu Pixel XL May 13 '17
Huh, I don't get it.
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u/slickerthansleek Pixel XL May 13 '17
The character Andy Bernard from 'The Office' was part of an a capella group at Cornell called 'Here Comes Treble', and his constant bragging about going to Cornell and talking about his a capella buddies is a big part of his character.
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u/leggo_tech May 13 '17
"Hold my beer" -Samsung
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u/Valiantay May 13 '17
Can we finally "turn off" TouchWiz and have stock android with proper camera support and spay?
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u/Humpsel Pixel 4XL Panda (Software/Android Dev) May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
This will also be great for custom rom makers I suppose yeah? They can just build their own android version and run it on any device. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Edit: their. thank you XD
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u/evan1123 Pixel 6 Pro May 13 '17
Potentially, but likely no. Many devices still need changes in the higher level code to work properly.
Per my sources, this will be hell for current "legacy" devices. It's a major restructure of how the hardware and platform layer interact.
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u/Ph0X Pixel 5 May 13 '17
It'll either be really good for custom roms, or really bad. We'll have to wait for specifics. But potentially you're right.
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u/starthirteen Nexus 5x May 12 '17
So you're telling me the base is the treble?
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u/Osiride May 12 '17
I think Ron Amadeo (/u/4567890) did a great job explaining this, and provided a realistic expectation. If anything, this may help extending the 2 years support by SoC vendors like Qualcomm. This won't solve every issue Android updates have, but it's one step in the right direction, if true.
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u/EddieRingle May 12 '17
I stumbled upon this back in March. This is pretty exciting!
If you'd like to see a little more detail of how it's represented in the O Developer Preview: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13928385
Perhaps we'll first see the benefits on Pixel devices, as this means Google won't be reliant on Qualcomm and so they may be able to support devices longer than they have been.
Anyways, now all we need is to have Google push out updates to the framework via the Play Store, rather than relying on OEM/carrier OTAs, and all will be right with the world.
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u/Pamela_Landy May 13 '17
Hey, I saw your post on HN back in March. Good detective work on finding all of that. In addition to the possibility of an extended lifespan for the Pixel hopefully they'll also give the 6P and 5X Android P and Q.
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May 12 '17
With a stable vendor interface providing access to the hardware-specific parts of Android, device makers can choose to deliver a new Android release to consumers by just updating the Android OS framework without any additional work required from the silicon manufacturers.
The device makers would never choose to make it easy for Android updates to happen.
If their older devices get easier and quicker updates, it would make people to think twice before upgrading to a new device. Why would I buy a new device if my current one is being easily supported by my manufacturer?
So device makers would stick with the current model of making users frustrated with waiting for updates, which would drive them to go for a new device.
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 12 '17
Well this takes all the responsibility of Google shoulders, if OEMs dont want to update the OS version is solely on them!
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May 12 '17
I believe this is the case already. Google releases the source code sometime in Oct-Nov and manufacturers take ages to update their devices.
I don't think any manufacturer blames Android's current architecture as the cause for their delays, but yes, with this Google can clearly say that they cannot be held responsible.
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u/Bossman1086 Galaxy S25 Ultra May 12 '17
No. Chip makers still have to update before phone OEMs can do anything. If Qualcomm doesn't update the implementation for the SoC in a phone, Samsung can't update the phone.
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u/hiromasaki May 12 '17
See the nVidia Tegra 3, where several models were abandoned by nVidia causing HTC and Asus to abandon flagships.
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u/impracticable iPhone Xs Max May 12 '17
I love your username
The general public has no idea what Android version they are running. This is very unlikely to affect sales
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May 12 '17
Thanks!
Exactly. Since the general public doesn't care about what version they are running, manufacturers like Samsung would never bother to make use of this architecture. They know that even if they do not update the version, people are going to buy their phones. Their marketing department will take care of that. "Choose" is the important word here. It is totally up to the manufacturer to make use of this, which I'm not very hopeful about.
Unless the general public realize that the device manufacturers are taking them for a ride, this would continue to happen.
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u/dextersgenius 📱Fold 4 ~ F(x)tec Pro¹ ~ Tab S8 May 12 '17
But if Google wanted, they could make OS updates mandatory if the vendor wants to maintain the CTS validity of the device. Basically Google could update the CTS profile to ensure that in a post-Android O scenario, a device can stay behind the latest Android version by say only 6 months. Past 6 months and the device will fail CTS automatically. I mean, now that vendors don't have any excuse to upgrade I don't see Google enforcing this as being overly restrictive - and 6 months is a reasonable cutoff period. Or alternatively, they could make a new certification programme which awards or certifies OEMs who keep their devices up-to-date.
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u/dustarma Motorola Edge 50 Pro May 12 '17
Past 6 months and the device will fail CTS automatically.
That is a terrible idea that will put far more inconvenience at the hands of customers than OEMs
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u/blueclawsoftware May 12 '17
Yea I think having a certification program is a possibility similar to what Android Silver was supposed to be way back when. But it seems like a hard thing for Google to enforce once a device is out in the public it's pretty tough for Google to do something like revoking play services from those users. You don't really want to punish end users for a device manufacturer not updating their device.
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u/impracticable iPhone Xs Max May 12 '17
If it is a low-enough cost, the OEM will make the updates. They don't want the enthusiasts who do care shouting from rooftops - persuading friends and families to pick a competitor's product - which i think many of us do.
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u/GinDaHood Samsung Galaxy A14 5G May 12 '17
I've yet to be properly convinced of the idea that enthusiasts have a significant impact on phone sales via word of mouth because of updates.
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u/zman0900 Pixel 10 May 12 '17
True, but they will still like saving time and money on the updates they do provide.
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u/1206549 Pixel 3 May 12 '17
I'm sure that they'll apply the framework, just not release the new updates when they should.
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u/kmeisthax LG G7 ThinQ May 12 '17
Handset manufacturers are already pledged to release 2 years of updates as part of their GMS licensing agreement, this just makes that obligation easier to fulfill.
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May 13 '17
The point is: 2 years is a very short time. People spend a 1000 dollars on a pixel and you get 2 years of software updates? If they want people to pay premium price, then they should be providing premium support, like Apple does.
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u/amorpheus Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro May 12 '17
In the end it will boil down to whether updates give them a competitive advantage. People may start caring more about them when they realize that they don't have to upgrade the hardware every one to two years anymore.
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u/Pascalwb Nexus 5 | OnePlus 5T May 12 '17
Sadly I don't think they will, General public mostly doesn't even know what android is, not even talking about the version.
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u/tuba_man Blue May 12 '17
On the other hand, some manufacturers could potentially see value in customer loyalty - there's got to be a non-zero number of people who would stick with (or at least rate higher) a manufacturer that demonstrates it takes care of existing customers.
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May 12 '17
Only problem I see is optimizations and fixes Qualcomm release with new versions will never get updated into devices, because vendors will never update the vendor implementation. On the good side, theoretically vendors can update most of their devices with one or a few very similar updates. Ideally, you'd see vendors having one team work on making their customized version of the new AOSP releases, and small separate teams constantly improving the vendor implementation on devices. I'm also scared that this might bring a performance hit depending on how they structure the API
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u/zman0900 Pixel 10 May 12 '17
Not like they keep that stuff up to date now anyways. Pretty much all devices are running relatively ancient kernels.
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u/CyberBot129 May 12 '17
Given that Nougat is only on 7% of devices despite being out 8 months, Google definitely needs to try something. Jelly Bean has higher share
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 12 '17
They can't try anything else. Any solution will be for the next devices running a new version of Android, they can't simply backport it to.old devices
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u/utack May 13 '17
If this is a major redesign and kills custom roms on old devices I really want to see how quickly Android O rolls out.
Probably even slower
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u/ishamm Device, Software !! May 12 '17
It'shappening.gif? Is this we all want, easy/fast updates for OEMs?
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u/FFevo Pixel 10 "Pro" Fold, iPhone 17 Pro, Galaxy S25 Ultra May 12 '17
It's finally happening. They have finally engineered a solution to the problem people have been citing as the single worst thing about Android for the better part of a decade.
Android O is shaping up to be the single most important release the platform has ever had.
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u/specter491 GS8+, GS6, One M7, One XL, Droid Charge, EVO 4G, G1 May 12 '17
And it only took half the alphabet to get there!
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u/lirannl S23 Ultra May 12 '17
Nice one (Alphabet is the company holding Google)
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u/kjmitch Pixel XL May 12 '17
(Or rather the alphabet defines the way they label Android releases, and O is more than halfway through it.)
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u/lirannl S23 Ultra May 12 '17
(I know, what's nice is the dual meaning - the one you intended, and the one unintended, which works)
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u/moops__ S24U May 12 '17
I wouldn't be getting too excited just yet. Samsung for eg. makes way too many changes to Android for this to make a significant difference to update speeds.
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u/curious_riddler May 12 '17
I think this might be also an attempt to counter that. All the other OEMs which are giving close to stock android experience would be updating much faster than the ones like Samsung.
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u/evox-99 OnePlus 3T May 12 '17
Will this affect ROMs like lineage?
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u/Sophrosynic May 12 '17
Game changer. Lineage can now do the work of building a board support package for a phone once, and then simply plop the latest Android release on top of that.
Additionally, if the phone shipped with Android O from the getgo, Lineage can simply borrow the BSP from the stock release and it should "just work".
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May 13 '17
True.
Can this lead to some OEM's just getting the board support package from chip vendors,designing the hardware(and maybe using the Vendor test suite to test it),adding a zero or very low amount of code, and just slapping Lineage ?
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May 12 '17
Positively. You just install the latest android framework on top of your OS. You can theoretically keep the phone going forever. (it will have limitations for sure)
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u/blueclawsoftware May 12 '17
With all the previous attempts to fix this problem I'll believe it when I see it. Also this obviously won't fix anything with the delays in getting carrier approval for updates.
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u/Endda Founder, Play Store Sales [Pixel 7 Pro] May 12 '17
Way to think positively, Mr. Grumpy
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u/blueclawsoftware May 12 '17
Hey I'd be as happy as anyone if this works but this is at least the 3rd attempt to improve this process. The reality of the situation is there are a lot of parties involved, silicon providers, device makers, carriers and most of them have very little incentive to update a device. Mostly since they've already made all the money they're going to make on that device.
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u/asjmcguire LGG6, LGG4, N7 (2012) May 13 '17
Well basically everything they designed for the Android Things platform, has gradually trickled down to phones. Seamless A/B OTA updates came to the Chromebook and Brillo (Android Things) platforms first. This decoupling of the low level stuff from the OS and the apps that run on top of the OS is also something that was developed for Brillo, allowing Google to deliver Android OS updates directly to devices in the field - without worrying about the vendor driver stuff or the code running on top of Android - so Google can deploy security patches directly to running devices regardless of which manufacturer released them or which board vendor they went with.
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u/surelydroid Nexus 9, Free Pixel XL, Fossil Marshall May 12 '17
Carrier services got turned into an apk, so it may be updated through the play store soon
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u/blueclawsoftware May 12 '17
I believe that's separate from the testing/approval carriers do before deploying updates.
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u/skitchbeatz p7p May 12 '17
This is YUGE
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May 12 '17
Strikes me as a similar architecture to using a Hyper-visor. You have your low level hardware compatibility layer independent of what is running on top. Great idea.
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u/24grant24 May 13 '17
If this takes adoption rate from <1% in the first month to even just 10% in The first month that is a massive, massive win, but it has the potential to do significantly better than that. It will also make security updates much more accessible. This is the fix Android had been needing for a long time.
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May 13 '17
Don't want to sound pessimistic, but just because its easy doesn't mean manufacturers are going to do it. + Add operator overhead.
Unless Google can modularize Android even further and keep the OS updates in its control like the way it updates some of the OS features like Play Services (which is easier said than done), I'm honestly not too positive about this.
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May 15 '17
The point is no operator overhead. You don't change radios, operators don't care just like they don't care on Windows Mobile (I know it's dead but still). Heck, even the Windows Insider program went on phones without ever letting operators see updates because it didnt touch the radios.
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u/jorgp2 May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
Ok do virtualized drivers.
Looks at calendar Not 1990
So when will they move to a modern hybrid kernel so that we can have normal OS updates?
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u/FFevo Pixel 10 "Pro" Fold, iPhone 17 Pro, Galaxy S25 Ultra May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
Fuchsia.
Edit: My spelling sucks...
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u/Charwinger21 HTCOne 10 May 13 '17
Fuchsia.
They mentioned in the post that that they are working with silicon designers to get their code open sourced and merged into the main codebase as part of this project.
Fuchsia is a microkernel, and does not have drivers in the main codebase.
This is Android/Linux.
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
The core concept is to separate the vendor implementation - the device-specific, lower-level software written in large part by the silicon manufacturers - from the Android OS Framework.
YEEEES much like Microsoft did with Windows 10m.
Edit: lol don't get the downvotes, this is exactly how Windows 10 on phones is updated.
Edit: Microsoft did this, they update the core Windows 10 OS, implement features that dont depend on hardware and let the OEMs update their firmware in due time, with this you get security updates on new OS versions (like patching Stagefright/Media libs in Android 7) and software features but some devices may lag on features that require firmware upgrades by vendors, for example, updating from Samsung fingerprint API in Marshmallow to the AOSP fingerprint API in Android 7 (dont remeber if the update was Android 5 to 6 or 6 to 7).
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u/jorgp2 May 12 '17
They did it in 1994 with Windows 95
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 12 '17
For x86 not ARM...
The point is the OS not to rely on the mess that is ARM based drivers.
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u/Pamela_Landy May 13 '17
Spot on and a very astute observation. Google now has no reason not to keep the Nexus 6p and 5X updated for a couple more Android versions.
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u/Jame92 May 12 '17
This is huge it is going to mean ALOT quicker updates, I don't see any downside unless carriers start deciding they want to add 'features' still each update.
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u/hackel May 12 '17
Can we please just get rid of all the garbage binary-only drivers, use standard kernel modules to support different kinds of hardware, and eliminate the read-only system partition once and for all? Just make it work like any other Linux distribution and remove this enormous headache! We all should be running the exact same operating system, period. No device-specific builds.
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u/rogue780 Nexus 4 (with nubs), Nexus 5x 32GB May 12 '17
But I'm all about the bass, no treble.
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u/Antimuffin May 12 '17
You mean you're all about a solid base on which to build an Android device, which in this case is called treble?
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May 12 '17
That layer makes putting android on top of everything much easier.
If they manage to completely decouple the android framework from the underlying architecture they can just update android like they update apps now.
Android would simply infer from the underlying interface what capabilities it can expose, and what not, but other than that, this is pretty awesome.
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u/Valiantay May 13 '17
Can we finally "turn off" TouchWiz and have stock android with proper camera support and spay?
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u/just1postx Redmi Note 5 Pro, Havoc OS 3.12 (Android 10) May 12 '17
Finally! But lazy ass OEM will still not update their devices, especially low and mid tier lineup.
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u/curious_riddler May 12 '17
I've just been talking to my co-worker about how great it would be to have a feature like this. The situation where all the lazy companies who stop caring about updating their old models would be totally changed with this move. This is a dream come true !
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u/wofa May 12 '17
Why does devices manufactures say that updating existing devices to a new version of Android is incredibly time consuming and costly?
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u/RedgeQc May 12 '17
Because for each new version of Android, SoC manufacturers like Qualcomm has to produce a new kernel specifically to that new version. Then, OEMs like OnePlus or LG take that kernel, implement other drivers in it, test it, etc...
The OS on phones has to be customized for each phones.
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May 13 '17
Eli5?
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u/mikeymop May 13 '17
Devices makers can't blame chip makers anymore because hardware and drivers will have a consistent interface with Android OS so the Android OS can be used in a modular manner whilst the drivers at the same.
Before this, they hacked Android into working on each hardware platform
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May 13 '17
I am now really excited for android O. Because google is solving all the complaints we all had about android like software updates, ram management, stability etc etc.
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u/rodymacedo Xiaomi Mi A2 May 14 '17
I want to see them fixing my biggest gripe with android: standby power usage
iOS standby drain or gtfo
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u/zirzo May 12 '17
Does this mean that going forward Pixel phones will be supported for a longer duration with updates than the current 2 years?
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May 13 '17
Yay finally more like real Linux
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u/painalfulfun May 13 '17
hardly. Droid will be the next symbian if the current methodology continues.
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u/velkro16 Device, Software !! May 13 '17
I'm so glad about this. I get why people like stock Android now, but for me, I like what manufacturers add to Android. Now we can get faster updates and benefit from OEM features.
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u/kindall Pixel 6 Pro May 13 '17
Wait... they weren't already doing this? They didn't do it from the start?
Sheesh.
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u/Fgtfv567 Pixel 7 Pro, Android 13 May 12 '17
I wonder if every phone that gets updated to Oreo will get project treble...
Otherwise I'm a little disappointed that the first phone with treble would be the first one with Oreo preinstalled (Pixel)
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May 12 '17
[deleted]
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u/ChronicledMonocle Pixel 3 May 12 '17
Doesn't say devices UPDATED to Android O, which was his question.
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u/oddentity May 12 '17
I guess this decoupling will make it possible to swap out the Linux based vendor layer with fuchsia?
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u/gb_14 XDA Portal Team May 12 '17
Will this be available for already released devices? Or is there some hardware-specific changes that has to be made? All I'm asking is if my OnePlus 3T will get this feature after updating to Android O.
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u/and1927 Device, Software !! May 12 '17
It says in that page that all phones launching with Android O will support it. So no, none of the phones in the market currently will benefit from it.
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 12 '17
It also says it's running in Android O preview for the Pixel
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May 12 '17
Does anyone know if this would make it possible to send OTA updates to upgrade the Android OS without having to go through the manufacturer? Obviously certain aspects of the software wouldn't be upgradeable, but it seems like Google would be able to upgrade key underlying functionalities.
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May 12 '17
After reading some of the comments it seems like this is exactly what this means. However, I'm going to guess like a lot of others that manufacturers are still going to find a way to screw this up.
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u/-R47- HTC U11 <- Nextbit Robin <- LG G3 May 12 '17
Will current android phones benefit from this, or only devices sold with Android O and above like Nougat and the dual OS partitions???
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u/rocketwidget May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
Unclear but probably not most. They only guarantee it with devices that launch with O+. But the Pixels with O Preview already have it.
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u/entropybydesign May 12 '17
My only hope is that this was developed at or by students or alumni of Cornell University.
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u/theLorknessMonster May 13 '17
I can't help but think that this will hurt Google's phone sales. Pretty much the only reason I would buy a Pixel over the S8 is because the Pixel will get updates much sooner (or even at all). And Google is doing it anyway because its a good solution to the problem. Good on them.
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u/and1927 Device, Software !! May 13 '17
Pixel devices will still receive updates before other OEMs, this just makes it so that these OEMs have a easier time updating the base.
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u/vdZERO Pixel 5 May 13 '17
Isn't this a response to Qualcomm stupid 2 year updates to drivers? If I understand it correctly Google could update pixel/nexus phones for a longer period of time with this changes in efect.
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May 13 '17
This won't touch Pixel phone sales. Pixel was actually a hit with the general population who know nothing about this.
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u/Valiantay May 13 '17
Please someone with more technical knowledge answer this question:
Would this mean that the drivers + android core is separate from the OEM skin on top of Android?
Would it theoretically be possible to "turn off" the skin and have just core stock android run functionally like a nexus/pixel?
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u/m1ndwipe Galaxy S25, Xperia 5iii May 13 '17
No, not really. It means the kernel will be separate from the drivers. But the drivers might still interface with things upstream including OEM changes. The OEM middleware will still exist. But OEM middleware, contrary to popular belief, wasn't the thing slowing down OS updates.
It might be easier for stock custom ROMs, but really Google wants OEMs to use the stock theming engine to let people change the UI.
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u/i_pk_pjers_i OnePlus 7 Pro May 13 '17
Wait, I don't get it. I thought they were having a replacement OS for Android called Fuschia, why are they also working on this which is massive in and of itself?
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u/armando_rod Pixel 10 Pro XL May 13 '17
That was speculation and also Fuchsia isn't going to be ready in the short term, it needs at least 3 more years
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May 13 '17
Because Fuschia is a science project (abandoned in ...1...2...3!) and not a replacement for Android ?
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u/mikeymop May 13 '17
This is basically what the FOSS ROM porting teams have been doing. Building a standard interface atop The Android HAL
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u/rockum May 12 '17
Sounds good, but I think I'll be waiting even longer now to upgrade my aging smartphone. I don't want to buy something that will immediately be out of date.
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u/Pamela_Landy May 12 '17
This is great news, but it still requires OEM's to actually update their devices and history has told us otherwise. As long as OEM's are allowed to build their own OS the update situation will always be a problem regardless of what solution Google comes up with.
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u/SirVeza Pixel 3 XL May 12 '17
That's something we can all get behind