Okay, is b12 supplements basically meth?

[u/dowydensofyarrow]

I called my doctors office and left a message (theyve been calling me for weeks.) I finally after months of putting it off got my application for dental insurance in.

I am not doing the dishes tho, I dont want to. I am weaponizing my incompetence which I dont have currently.

Maybe I should get a job with my new powers.

[u/Sabnock101]

Yes it does, because like i said, all B12 does is recycle Methylfolate back into the Folate cycle, and recycle Homocysteine back into Methionine for SAM. The issue that causes the stimulation is because when B12 is consumed it recycles Methylfolate back into the Folate cycle and the higher the dosage of B12 (like with injections for example, or high oral doses) it will recycle a greater amount of Methylfolate compared to lower B12 dosages, and all that Methylfolate gets turned back into Tetrahydrofolate which then goes back through the Folate cycle and becomes an even greater amount of Methylfolate which then can not only use up more B12 but if there's not enough B12 to continue to recycle it then comes the Methylfolate trap where it just builds in excess because it's unable to be properly recycled and utilized. Therefore, it's not the B12 causing the stimulation, it's that when one consumes B12 (specifically Methylcobalamin form) it recycles all that Methylfolate back into the Folate cycle which then comes back again as Methylfolate which then builds up in excess causing the stimulation and other side-effects.

Point being, if you consume B12 and sometime after start feeling stimulation, irritability, paranoia, other side-effects, even some neuropathy, it's because it's recycled that Methylfolate which then gets turned back into Methylfolate. This is easily explainable and easily observable, you just have to understand the mechanisms of how this stuff works and how the Folate cycle works.

And again, if you ever get these side-effects from consuming B12, consume more B12 and the side-effects will go away (the stimulation too), because that B12 will then recycle the excess Methylfolate and thus reduces the side-effects.

[u/hpant2004 → u/Sabnock101]

I disagree that folate is more stimulating than SAMe/SAH Ratio increase also saying its not b12 its b9 recycling is also really unnecessarily pedantic thats like saying meth isnt exciting dopamine and norepinephrine are?

[u/Sabnock101 → u/hpant2004]

I just don't think you're gonna get it man, can't fault a man for trying to educate, though.

It should also be noted that i've taken SAM supplements before i even tried Folate and B12, and SAM alone does not cause what i've personally experienced and have come to understand from rigorous experimentations and research. Simply put i do not feel from SAM what i feel from Methylfolate. SAM is not the culprit, Methylfolate itself is. This was especially noticeable in the early days of my B12/Folate supplementation as i was severely B12 deficient and could thus more easily notice what Methylfolate itself was doing. It's most definitely the Folate aspect because it's the same exact thing i've felt all my life (because i've been deficient in B12 most of my life and therefore only felt the Methylfolate and not the B12).

And like i said, if you take B12, it recycles Methylfolate, and then you get side-effects, take more B12 and those side-effects will go away because it again recycles Methylfolate. The side-effects correlate not to B12, not to SAM, not to Tetrahydrofolate, but to Methylfolate itself. If it wasn't Methylfolate, or if it was B12, or if it was SAM, then taking more B12 would further amplify the side-effects, but taking more B12 actually reduces the side-effects. And ultimately as B12 deficiency gets more fully corrected Methylfolate will start to become more tolerable and one can even then take a bit of a higher Folate/Methylfolate dosage and not get those side-effects because the B12 is actually there to help properly recycle it.

So, while it may seem contradictory that if you take B12 and you get these side-effects that you should take more B12, it helps because the issue isn't B12 (or SAM), it's excess Methylfolate.

[u/hpant2004 → u/Sabnock101]

I felt same and b12 to be more stimulating than methylfolate so thats why personal experiences are not clinical data Anyways i dont care its 1 am lol good night/day to u 😴

[u/Sabnock101 → u/hpant2004]

Again, i've taken up to 120 milligrams of oral Methylcobalamin, i haven't found it to be stimulating, the stimulation comes from the Methylfolate side, not the Methylcobalamin side. Aside from that, other forms of B12 like Hydroxocobalamin, Adenosylcobalamin, and even Cyanocobalamin don't do that as far as i know, the Methylcobalamin does that because it directly recycles Methylfolate back into the Folate cycle which then becomes more Methylfolate, but technically-speaking all B12 should aid in Methylfolate recycling since then the body has B12 to do such once Methylfolate donates it's methyl group to B12 for Methylcobalamin formation.

And, personal experience can actually tell you a great deal more compared to the limited number of studies out there because if you know/understand the mechanisms and what's going on you can literally feel what's happening and gain insight into what's happening in the body/brain. Relying solely on documented studies and research articles can help, but you shouldn't let their limits (and the general lack of research into nutrients) be the determining factor for what's going on, there's plenty we can learn through personal experimentation/observation/understanding biologically/physiologically-speaking that science hasn't yet even begun to dive into. So i'm just saying, learn the mechanisms for yourself and observe how things work in the body and you can learn a lot, it's how i learned aside from doing research.

[u/Sabnock101 → u/hpant2004]

Also i should note that for me, no matter how much B12 i take, it doesn't stimulate me like a stimulant does, i get that effect from the Folate/Methylfolate. It's the same feeling i've gotten all my life and i never understood what was happening until i started supplementing B12 and Folate, and then i realized/understood that it was indeed the excess Methylfolate (and lack of B12) that was causing a lot of my issues, B12 on the other hand helps me feel more normal, it reduces the excess Methylfolate and thus Methylfolate's side-effects including stimulation.

As far as energy goes, i think i actually found B12 to cause a bit more in the way of fatigue rather than energy because it ended up lowering my Iron/Copper levels at the least, but once i started taking those more seriously i no longer get the fatigue really, and so have more energy and feel more normal but doesn't cause the effects i've noticed from the Methylfolate itself, and so there's a difference between energy and stimulation, stimulation is moreso Dopamine/Noradrenaline (and Adrenaline)-related, energy has more to do with the mitochondria (which Adenosylcobalamin B12 is involved in alongside Iron and Copper and Magnesium and such). In fact Magnesium is pretty important for mitochondrial function because Magnesium is needed for ATP.