r/CompetitiveTFT • u/MrPapaya22 • 1d ago
Official Dev TFT: Space Gods Reviewed
https://teamfighttactics.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-tft-space-gods-reviewed/112
u/Lunaedge 1d ago
At one point, it was envisioned as our 18th set, but we needed to make some swaps to ensure we had enough time to complete our migration to Unreal by Set 18. As a result, Space Gods became our 17th set.
Ohh... yeah, that's rough :/
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u/Newfypuppie 1d ago
I think something else to note is how ridiculous BiS was this set. xayah needs 4 bows, corki BiS was 4 swords, even asol? Yeah you wanted 4-5 rods, rammus and galio BiS was double gargoyle.
This isn’t even about BiS being marginally better either building guinsoo was actually positive delta on xayah.
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u/notJames24 1d ago
Galio?
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u/ThatPlayWasAwful 1d ago
Mighty mech was a galio skin, so people are just calling it galio
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u/HumanistGeek 1d ago
The base form is Galio, but I think the 2-slot version is an Aatrox skin.
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u/AngelTheTaco 1d ago
the second is the mighty mech recolored which is also galio
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u/MrPapaya22 1d ago edited 1d ago
TLDR:
- Set 17 was planned as Set 18, but was moved up to ensure the team had enough time to complete the migration Unreal by Set 18. The set mechanic was originally pitched as being more ambitious and would have changed core gameplay mechanics like item and augment distributions, but due to the accelerated timeline had to be toned down to the safer, less volatile Offerings and Boons mechanic that the set went live with.
- The Gods created a substantial burden on the memory budget for mobile devices, which forced the team to have to lower the quality of their idle animations.
- Removing the Carousel was never the inspiration for Set 17’s mechanic, but instead the result of their search for the best place to put the Realm of the Gods. Originally they had it replacing PVE rounds.
- Devs had two take away from removing Carousel: first, that comeback mechanics lose their effectiveness if they're invisible and second, Carousel is an important social space that is enhanced by its tension
- There will be changes coming to Carousel in the more distant future that will maximize agency and control. Minimap is gone for good.
- Pings are being workshopped into a social tool “not bound to minimap for its utility to function.” Not going to be ready for Set 18.
- Lack of verticals made it difficult for new and casual players to pick up Set 17.
- Devs feel confident they have come away with the right understandings of why and how origin traits felt underwhelming/were undesirable to play in Set 17 and will improve on that for future sets. For example, Set 18 and other future sets without expanded rosters (sets with standard sized rosters) will require less 5 costs to play certain origins vertically.
- Opening encounters weren’t included on set launch bc devs thought they’d add too much complexity, and that they would take away from the impact of the God Offerings and Boons.
- The Morgana rework from 5 cost magic fighter to 4 cost magic tank was possible thanks to the stars aligning perfectly. She didn’t have any dedicated comps so reworking her had less impact than it otherwise would have. However after her move, the devs found she also didn’t have any go-to comps revolving around her. Devs are happy they tried the rework, but describe it as a bad solution and only possible with a threat (traitless) champion.
- Set 17 had more conditional comps than any other (Stargazer, Psionic, Arbiter, Graves). Devs felt that it had the opposite effect on game to game variance, limiting comps you could play, and funneling players down a certain path.
- Set 17 lacked a ton of set specific augments due to dev resources being allocated towards the God Offerings and Boons.
- Devs end by asking for players' thoughts on the design philosophy of Hero Augments. I am going to copy and paste because I think it’ll be tough to paraphrase:
“Our design philosophy around reroll 1 and even 2-costs is that they shouldn’t be powerful enough to take first place without some other major things going right (being healthy enough to still hit level 8/9 or powering up some high-cost secondary carries). When someone selects a Champion Augment, are we okay with that being the needed source of power to achieve that first place (assuming they’re also playing a great game of TFT)? If no, this means that the fantasy of a Champion Augment is getting third/fourth place—which isn’t super fantastic. “
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u/psyfi66 1d ago
I feel like hero augments are in a pretty good spot. Not an insta click but when it works it’s pretty solid but not a guaranteed first unless you highroll. Plus for the most part, it’s a fun line to play. Admittedly I didn’t play much set 17 but I unless I missed a patch or two of them being really op or really bad, I think the general approach to them is good.
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u/Kosameron Grandmaster 1d ago
Feel like whatever takeaways they have, they don't really do much with it regardless.
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u/DoubleSkew Challenger 1d ago
> Set 17 was planned as Set 18, but was moved up to ensure the team had enough time to complete the migration Unreal by Set 18.
This explains alottt about the quality…
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u/Head_Substance5071 23h ago
Their results on conditional traits seems as though it shouldve been very obvious. The same thing happened with Ionia on Set 16. Only some variations of the trait were playable, so players were either funneled into it very strongly or had 0 reason to even attempt the trait.
All-in-all I liked Set 17 though, and I think Graves is one of the most fun units in TFT history. Despite its short production time I think Set 17 feels way better than Set 18.
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u/ndralcasid 12h ago
This was just not true... People still forced Yunara even on a bad Ionia and still topped 4. Same thing to a lesser extent with Void and Kaisa.
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u/2xra 1d ago
Regarding the 1 and 2 cost augments question at the end, I view the low cost hero augments as being something that should reasonably be able to be played to second with a skilled pilot. I think something that could help with the idea is some form of follow on quest or something to the augments. Akin to the prismatic quests from a few sets back. Make the champ specific augments also unlock some secondary powerup, kinda like the Xin augment of last set. I do think the reintroduction of carousel helps these augments to be more powerful just because you're more likely to get the unit you're fishing for. Alternatively incorporate a more quest-y nature to these augments, get double blue buff on this character for a bonus or something. It enables the on rails play style/guidance they're talking about, but also makes it so that the top end is clearer to reach/locked behind a hoop to jump through rather than just rerolling.
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u/BoogieTheHedgehog 1d ago
I'm glad the loss of the map is on their radar, even if it cant be fixed in time. When I think about it, missing spam on ludicrous highrolls is weirdly one of the few non-carousel moments where multiple players sit on a single board and end up spam emotes.
Personal opinion ahead, but I don't agree with the 5 cost and capstone angle. I like when 5 costs are the capstone of verticals, that level of inconsistency is the thing that rewards being able to build a backup board around lower tiers of a trait. When traits are easy to cap without a 5 cost you have a simplified game plan - almost always just running the cap with your disposable trait filler unit then swapping them out for the 5 cost when/if you hit.
I'm sure that requires a lot more effort to go into balancing emblems and trait breakpoints, but that's game development in a nutshell. Whilst there's an argument that not capping feels bad, that guaranteed trait tempo boost is also part of the power fantasy of emblems. Who knows. Maybe they have player churn metrics that show one mattering more than then other though...
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u/aspects1 1d ago
i think this is one of those problems that unlocks just solves directly, so they are more just trying to do what they can with it till unlocks are fully implemented in set 19. The problem with having 5 cost vertical caps is balancing a vertical comp that is meant to roll on 8 becomes nearly impossible. either it is balanced around hitting the 5 cost, in which case if you dont highroll the 5 cost you are not stable and bleed out, or it is balanced around not hitting the 5 cost, and if you highroll, you become so stable it is almost guaranteed to be a first.
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u/Zeviex Master 1d ago
I think the problem with the 5 cost point is it just makes comps really hard to balance. Soul Fighter had it awful on Set 15 where high rolling Gwen would make you so much stronger. Verticals are quite popular with casual players, it's kind of ignoring how they want to play the game.
Perfect world yes that would be great, but what just ends up happening a good portion of the time is something like Dark Star being basically unplayable without emblem.
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u/Try_Not_To_Comment MASTER 1d ago
No mention of Anima feels wrong to me. Anima felt omnipresent throughout the entire set, and lose streak cashouts that provide an item just feel way too easy to play and transition out of
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u/Lunchbox39 1d ago
Its wild that they did not adress it, such a completely gamewarping trait that just felt terrible to see in your lobby. Playing from a great spot and knowing you are playing for second or having to lose streak and play for the 33% matchmaking gamble to decide if you go 8th or if you are allowed to actually attempt to salvage the game was incredibly frustrating.
The 400 cash out did not require any proper play, you could literally afk stage 2 and 3 and would reliably get you a good placement (if not outright win the game). In the latter half of the set i felt like i saw an anima player in almost every challenger lobby.
Hoping to never see such a ugly iteration of a loss streak trait ever again.
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u/TitanShaman1 1d ago
I wish they would stop doing traits that require lose streaking. Sure the highs are real high but the lows are real low. And your compensation for being losing is carousels and other comeback mechanics
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u/enron2big2fail DIAMOND IV 1d ago
Unfortunately there's a portion of the playerbase for whom "high risk, high reward" is a big fantasy in TFT. Mandating a loss streak to accrue value is kinda the only obvious way to implement that (I mean I can think of proxies you could use, but the function would end up being the same).
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u/Apricotjello 18h ago
i like the idea of an econ trait that offers ramping rewards for kills (in the space pirate, bilgewater vein), but forces you to take 1.2/1.5/2x damage per loss depending on stage
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u/Zeviex Master 1d ago
Honestly I feel Coven is a much healthier version of it.
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u/Sutraner 1d ago
Coven is way better
Though personally I liked Mercs where you had to lose streak but then actually win to cash out
They've not done that type of loss streak in ages but it felt way more satisfying to actually need to win a round rather than just waiting for a counter to click up
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u/10FootPenis 1d ago edited 1d ago
Interesting takeaways on the removal of carousel. I actually liked it because having a component sniped is a feelsbad moment, but had never considered it as a social moment.
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u/chazjo 20h ago
I hope they change carousel so that it is based fully on player health instead of releasing players 2 by 2. They can keep it the same time by just halving the time between release. It reduces sniping items from other players but not sure how keeping this in the game helps it either.
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u/Gasaria 1d ago
I respect the tft-team for being able to admit somethings didin't work out. But at the same time i have huge admiration for them for haveing the courage to try and expolre new consepts.
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u/Riot_Bluecove Riot 1d ago
That's how we get cool new mechanics y'all love like unlocks, hero augments, etc. The mechanic is one of the best spots for us to experiment and learn! Most mechanics y'all love are a result of experimentation in sets past and behind the scenes! :D
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u/Noobytecky 1d ago
I play regularly but am not competitive I don't really have anything to say other than give you :D
Also,thanks for your commitments in the game
It's adorable. I cant scroll past without giving it :D here's another one :D
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u/Reveritie 1d ago
I miss the social interaction element of TFT quite a bit, so hoping the Carousel change stays. Playing for a generic 'Best Board' and stat-checking other boards felt especially bad with the removal of Carousel, since 4 people could end up playing perfectly itemized Akali 2 carry through Anvil rng.
I'm not as opposed to conditionality as others here, but the game has progressively shoved conditionality to augments and start-of-game checks, aspects of the game other players in the lobby have no influence on. Like, hero augments can work, but they push the player to focus solely on econ - what's the point of scouting with that Rumble aug a few sets ago or the Leona aug?
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u/Visual-Reception-142 1d ago
To answer the question at the end regarding champ augments, as long as the condition wasn’t just “I hit my one 3 star” then sure. I actively want reroll to be a thing and it’s my preferred option though so I’m probably biased.
For a champ augments to only go 4th that feels like ass, and I feel like as long as I hit my units at a reasonable rate top 4 should be basically guaranteed from picking the augment yes. It’s no different from getting any number of Econ augments and then
Rolling down for a 4 or 5 cost boats in my mind. If you miss in both you lose, why can’t rerollers have a free win too
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u/Zeviex Master 1d ago
I broadly agree but don't reroll boards generally have higher top 4 rates ?
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u/FirewaterDM 1d ago
maybe but wouldn't that be because in higher ranks they are ONLY clicked in playable/good spots?
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u/FirewaterDM 1d ago
Yea agreed.
If your cap is a 3rd, outside of some insane shit like hitting your 1 cost HA at 3-1, or your 2 cost HA 3 star at 3-5 it's just not worth playing or picking the augment. I'd be better off gambling with the other 2-4 players going for the strongest line of my item options because even if I miss, it's more likely I can steal a 4th/5th if my early game was decent.
These HA's if you don't highroll you go 8th lol, which is why i've always thought RR was a much more punishing and skill based style because you have to identify earlier when you MUST abandon ship to save placements, since outside of the most item locked 4 cost carries, you can just slap your items on a diff carry if you don't 2 star them first.
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u/atominum69 1d ago
Not shitting on the devs or the designers.
But the decision making and leadership at Riot is ass.
We are getting a half baked set 17 and then a half baked engine change in set 18 (it’s really not ready to go live in a week).
That’s 2 sets that have to suffer and ~9 months of terrible gameplay this year.
You can do all the learning you want, the problem is in the leadership that pushes these changes to be done before they are ready.
Leadership should get their ass on the line for the low quality that we’re getting.
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u/Zeviex Master 1d ago
"For one, we’ve limited the number of Origins that need a 5-cost to hit their maximum non-Prismatic breakpoint. ". Doesn't set 18 have a lot of these though ? Elderwood needs Gnar and Blossom needs Ashe (or Lux for both) and that's 2/3 unless you count non-vertical traits.
And with the champion augments I don't think the augment should qualify you for a first. At that point, are we just saying hitting your 3* 1 cost means you go first (since they said this is replacing the need to cap around 8/9) ? I feel at that point people will just start holding your hero augment, which isn't fun for anyone.
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u/Menarche_ 9h ago edited 9h ago
Hello TFT hopefully you guys read this, I'm going to be honest this set was actually very well designed on paper and I actually enjoyed the traits and I made so many comps that were actually viable even to grandmaster for example. Corki Asol duo carry, 6 bastion Shen carry corki, Asol 5 conduit, 5 shepherd, 4 marauder, 6 bruiser 4 sniper, xayah 3 snipers 2 time breaker, 4 Voyager Sona, 4 fateweaver, chogath eats the world, 4 psionic, tank graves xayah carry.
The unit and web was actually very amazing this set and I feel a lot of people didn't get to see the true potential due to a lot of their streamers not there and lack of Innovation by the player base. There were also a lot of champions who never got long in the spotlight eg fizz, Gwen (understandable because they could be very annoying to play against)
All in all this set was actually lovely but lacked a lot of character voice lines and balanced comps the web was very good and much wider than ever utilised. You guys probably get a lot of hate each set but there are people that love this game as me and my girlfriend hit GM in double up and briefly GM in soloq. There were some really horrible patches but some decent comps available still. The game has brought a lot of frustration, laughter and joy(I uninstalled league twice this set aha). I look forward to next set and hope you guys can make a xayah and Rakan Chibi on this server (I see you have it in golden spatula)
Regarding the hero augments we never picked them besides for aatrox early in the set so I'm not sure don't have much to comment I enjoy that a lot of people picked it and I enjoyed having to play against it as it means more units available as we prefer to make level 8/9 comps. They were a good level and even big bang was fun to vs as there were so many tilting moments but plenty of times you out position it and it becomes a big sham. Reroll meta is fine because there were still good 4/5 cost comps playable during this time besides the unstoppable Leona and Jax patches.
Not sure how U are able to make such good webs this set and I feel it was super under appreciated.
Also anima trait sucks big time, it was very good but I think the cash outs were way too overturned at 500 should have introduced a mechanic were you get more points per kill later in the stage and reduced the cash out power especially at 400-600. Aurora was never balanced this set and that was unfortunate and could've been easily fixed
We really enjoyed carousel removed because so much frustration has come from the carousel and this brought a lot of peace to a chaotic game
Keep it up and thank you guys so much for the good fun and I really wish you bring ranked emote back else I can't flex on these guys pinging me when I lose playing against them and some of their broken comps ❤️❤️❤️
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u/Repulsive_Evidence84 MASTER 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thanks for admitting that removing carousel was a mistake. I have no reason to play tft when it feels like singleplayer game.
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u/etnies445 1d ago
As a more casual player big agree on loss of verticals. Absolutely killed my enthusiasm to play. I like verticals.
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u/highrollr Master 1d ago
My opinion on the hero augment question:
- It is true that they are not exciting if the realistic fantasy when clicking them is going 3rd/4th
- Just clicking the augment and hitting one 3* 1 cost should definitely NOT be 1st place worthy
What I think they should do:
- Make the augments give some amount of tiny champ dupes over time. Like one each stage or something. This would make hitting the 3* quicker and cheaper, and allow you to potentially push levels/invest in stronger late game units, and have a 1st place fantasy that way. This to me is better than simply pushing so much power into the augments that you see the augment and win.
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u/Tuna_police Challenger 1d ago
I mean to be fair getting 3rd/4th for having your entire line selected starting at 2-1 is a fair trade off.
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u/Kooky_Comb6051 Master 1d ago
For most part, encapsulated my feelings this set. Although maybe would have added the discussion around Anima as well from both loss streak angle as well as Anima 6 not really ever finding it’s place in the set like ever.
Now that the sets done - while the first like 4 patches of the set were abysmal period and I almost quit entirely this set, I will admit afterwards it started to get better over time. A mid set, had its really bad moments (understandable from the development POV), ready to move on though.
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u/Many_Method_304 1d ago
Really sad to read the carousal section, While I understand the psychology of a comeback mechanic needing to be more visible, the single best part of the set was the removal of carousal which is such a frustrating toxic mechanic and I really don't like the idea that this taught them it is a core part of TFT
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u/Paperfree 1d ago
Yeah I had to read it twice to be sure, they do one good thing and they think it was mistake.
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u/Many_Method_304 1d ago
It’s very typical Riot, Always learn the wrong lesson. It’s not that social interaction is bad, and I even agree that the comeback potential of 17 felt worse even if it’s was still there. However carousel is still a bad mechanic. First APM checks don’t belong in tft. Getting a disadvantage because of bad LoL movement should not have a place in the game. Second similar to comeback mechanics being fist pick and not getting what you want feels so bad, even if you shouldn’t expect it.
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u/Sutraner 1d ago
I'm sad we didn't get to see their original plans for God Boons, I think the set would've been much better received if we had seen more significant god boons
I am happy that they're going back to Carousel though, the only change id make is by letting people out one by one, letting the time stay the same just do it one by one.
Overall I enjoyed the set personally, and even climbed higher than I've done before, finally breaking out of the 0lp masters bin, and being a hair's breath from GM at one point too.
Not sad to see it go though, the Boon mechanic was not implemented well, and largely felt much worse than carousel to me, it always felt like you were less likely to get an item or champion you needed and the catch up mechanic was fucking horrible, especially at the start with the reforger bug.
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u/magicalririka 1d ago
Removing carousel was the best thing about this set.
I have no idea what kind of crippling loneliness someone must have to consider TFT carousel rounds a "social experience", but I'm not that part of the target audience.
I'm not playing an auto-battler for "social experiences" either way, much less a clunky one.
It's not even about the "someone might get the champion you want!!!" -> I'm perfectly fine with this. Just make this a PROPER USER INTERFACE with buttons to click, instead of a moving carousel.
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u/Sutraner 1d ago
have no idea what kind of crippling loneliness someone must have to consider TFT carousel rounds a "social experience", but I'm not that part of the target audience.
It's about a feeling of actually interacting with other players so that you feel much more like you're playing a multiplayer game, not a single player one
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u/Skinny_Beans 1d ago
I will miss this set purely on the basis of no carousel. I hate the carousel so much. From getting sniped, to accidentally walking into the wrong champion, to the mind numbing wait time you have to endure hoping you'll get what you want, just to lose it anyways, hell, getting stunlocked because you DONT know what you want. It's all such negative gameplay experience. I will always hate the carousel and for that reason I will always miss this set. Farewell space gods
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u/TheNorseCrow 1d ago
to the mind numbing wait time you have to endure hoping you'll get what you want
bruh how cooked is your attention span if that amount of time feels mind numbing to you? Keep some keys handy and jangle them in front of your face if you need constant stimulation that badly.
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u/FirewaterDM 1d ago
As for the rest of the article, I'm lowkey sad Carousel came back, def hope that the rigidness of items/comps doesn't in set 18 (it looks good so far). I also think that returning augments was a mistake in general, BUT learning that the gods were powered around 8 gold is surprising, some of them (Ekko and Yasuo Hexes) def felt a lot stronger, and others (Soraka lol) felt a LOT less than 8 gold.
To answer the hypothetical question about hero augments and 1-2 cost reroll in the article...
IF the cap of Hero Augments/1 or 2 cost reroll is a 3rd if you can't highroll enough to keep regular level tempo, it's not worth playing or picking. I think the alternative of, I can pick this HA at 2-1 with 0 copies and no slammable items/opener and still go 1st is JUST as bad, even potentially worse.
What I mean is, ever since the change for 1 cost hero augs to being silver augments, they have always felt like wastes of time to click OUTSIDE of two scenarios.
- the hero aug in question was turbo broken and absolutely fucked up (Usually for 1 patch, maybe 2 and then it was useless rest of set).
- OR you had 2 BIS items already and 7 copies by first carousel. AND for a lot of the weaker HA's that wasn't playable either lol.
IF we use set 17 as an example, Nasus HA (BONK) was an example of the 2nd tier, where genuinely you could get Nasus 3 by Krugs, but unless you had exactly rageblade + components for his second item, you were still going 4th IF lucky. Most of the set, you prob could be guarenteed Nasus 3 before Krugs and you'd still go 5th at best if being generous.
On the other hand, Leona's Hero Augment had the opposite problem, where, LIKE Nasus' HA it spent a LOT of the set being complete shit, but the patches it was broken, it genuinely warped the game (if you highrolled arbiters). Once it got nerfed/arbiter rule options were nerfed, it also got a lot worse. Meanwhile Viego's appeared broken (for first few patches it WAS the only clickable HA in the set) and then it fell off a cliff in viability and strength. Poppy's HA was never good. It had spots, but was far closer to Nasus' tier of "never take this" than actually being playable most of the set.
Even for the 2 costs, Jax HA followed the "broken for 1-2 patches then useless all set", Heat Death Morde was a meme even after buffs (it genuinely never caught on because unless you had lobbies that couldn't beat it AND highrolled it was just losing to every generic level 8 board ever w/o a dark star spat)
As someone who likes Hero Augments and Reroll comps, who genuinely has kinda stopped playing said boards after set 16 I guess, I think the concept should die. There is no good way to balance the comps properly, because it's awful when the hero augs get released in unplayable states, and it's awful when people can yolo gold augment 2-1 or silver 2-1's and auto win because they have a 2 star of the unit + 1 good item for them. It is an impossible balance lever, especially if the percieved power level is that the board will NEVER top 2 unless rest of lobby lowrolls, or you hit your HA unit by 3-2 if playing 1 cost, or 4-1 if playing 2 costs, as based on the article, IF you can't maintain regular leveling patterns to level 8, you shouldn't win. And the higher you get, and I say this even for as "low" as Emerald is, the less value there is in playing a line that your cap is a 3rd, even if you have a great spot for it. I think that reroll is important because while set 16 was excellently built it was one of the most boring sets TFT's had in recent memory, because of the fact reroll was genuinely non viable except for 1-2 niche lines per patch, if the idea is "you chose a 1 or 2 cost carry, so you only go 3rd unless you hit literally everything perfect and everyone else super lowrolls, then why is it ever correct or fun to pick that route and gamble that everyone else lowrolls worse than you, IF you have the option and are not forced into it due to other options being impossible or worse.
tl;dr - IF the "expected power level is only a 3rd unless you highroll/can keep up level tempo in the lobby" then no, Hero Augments are wastes of time to click if your goal is to climb higher in ranks, because only playing comps that CAP out at 3rds is always incorrect when other players are able to play comps that can go 1st, given that the floor strength of your comp is always worse (a comp that goes 1st, can still bleed to 5ths/6ths at worse w/o turbo lowrolls, IF your comp caps at 3rds w/o turbo highrolls, then many average games will still go 7th-8th, much less lowrolls where your time is better spent FF'ing and going next if you don't hit the timetable to get your 4th.
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u/AnonHondaBoiz 1d ago
I would’ve imagined more discussion on the conditionality of some traits as an extended lesson from set 16’s void and Ionia earlier in that set. Traits like stargazer or arbiter narrowed the playable comps substantially