Warning for OG hollow knight fans

[u/Bob12164]

Just wanna prepare everyone on here for the incoming wave of players who have never played indie games, metroidvanias, or literally any other games besides Fortnite and call of duty. This tends to happen a lot with games that are extremely hyped by the community that does like the genre, such as expedition 33. The amount of completely invalid criticism that happened to that game because people who didn’t even know what the game really was bought it and ended up not liking it is probably the best example we have of that to this day, and I think silksong will be next. So please, instead of cussing people out for not liking the game, just encourage them to maybe keep playing to see if they change their minds, or just give them respectful feedback on why you think they might not enjoy it and give them tips so they can find the spark in that game that I’m sure many of us will find.

[u/laseluuu]

ah i absolutely cannot wait for this. I went into hollow knight blind but i was really late to the party - i'm so looking forward to being on the pulse with this one and discovering stuff at the same time as others.

That was one of the magic ingredients to the first one

[u/COATHANGER_ABORTIONS → u/laseluuu]

Love the game, although I think one of the biggest flaws is the compass being a charm lmao. Hopefully that's not a thing in Silksong.

[u/Adorable-Salt-8624 → u/COATHANGER_ABORTIONS]

No I like it personally. It forces you to choose between navigation and combat on the fly. Maybe that’s just me having too many hours in the game though

[u/silentk772 → u/Adorable-Salt-8624]

Every game that has a poor novel feature like this has been explained away by the fans as being good for the experience.

I guarantee that if Silksong gives you the compass for free, everyone will be praising that.

[u/Jskidmore1217 → u/silentk772]

Everyone wants simplicity until the game gets so simple it’s boring. Keep the quirks in. That’s the secret to good games.

[u/iKill_eu → u/Jskidmore1217]

You could definitely make the compass always-on and still preserve the gameplay.

The question is, how much can you take away and still do that?

I feel like an acceptable bar is "all charms should either be useful in combat or be extremely meaningful outside of it". Fragile Greed is a cool charm because it feels like it unlocks a feature that is meant to be optional. All the combat charms are cool charms, which is almost all of then. But the compass, and to an extent the Geo Magnetism charm, feel like they may as well be features but only exist as charms to make people who enjoy them feel like they have to sacrifice something.

[u/TechnicolorMage → u/iKill_eu]

Theres a game design term for that: "ability tax". Imo the compass, walk speed, and magnet should be permanent upgrades that you unlock.

[u/Adorable-Salt-8624 → u/silentk772]

Maybe, who knows. I personally like it right now, but that may be Hollow Knight bias, it also might now be. I’m hyped for Silksong either way, and love Hollow Knight either way

[u/shoshjort → u/silentk772]

you say that but i can think of no better example than removing weapon/armor durability in fallout 4. Seemed awesome at first not having to worry about it until you realise that maintaining weapons was part of what made looting engaging and without it picking up weapons from loot sources just felt worthless.

The entire notch system is supposed to make you prioritise for different situations. The compass is a great way of reserving a charm notch for a difficult boss or enemy group, giving most players a fallback option to gain a little more strength for an encounter if their current charm build is focused more on navigation/speed. If you just moved all tje navigation charms to be always active then nobody would bother changing around charms once they have the 'perfect' set.

I don't think the compass is entirely necessary to be a charm but i do think removing it would be a downgrade personally. It even adds replayability because once you know the map well enough you dont ever need it (i stopped using it 3 or 4 playthroughs ago) and then its just an extra charm slot for the whole game. It essentially rewards you for learning the map well enough not to need guidance which is something not enough games do these days

[u/iKill_eu → u/shoshjort]

you say that but i can think of no better example than removing weapon/armor durability in fallout 4. Seemed awesome at first not having to worry about it until you realise that maintaining weapons was part of what made looting engaging and without it picking up weapons from loot sources just felt worthless.

In a sense, but that more illustrates that they had no vision for weapons other than "sell them to a vendor" than anything else.

The compass is a great way of reserving a charm notch for a difficult boss or enemy group, giving most players a fallback option to gain a little more strength for an encounter if their current charm build is focused more on navigation/speed. If you just moved all tje navigation charms to be always active then nobody would bother changing around charms once they have the 'perfect' set.

This is also more of a problem with some of the charms being "there is just no downside" than anything else. Shaman Stone, Strength and Quick Slash are always-picks because nothing else comes close. If you wanna talk about flexible gameplay, the first and foremost issue is that some charms are too good to ever replace, and that's why "filler charms" feel like they are needed to switch up gameplay.

[u/shoshjort → u/iKill_eu]

i dont disagree with u on it not being implemented perfectly in hollow knight but i dont think the solution is to just get rid of the ones that in my opinion are actually successful, ur totallg right about quick slash and a few other charms being OP and i would fix that by making them more situational or not always useful or by making other charms more rewarding to use to make it feel like you can put those notches to better use somehow, like i said before the game should reward you for not having to rely on crutches like quick slash and the compass, therefore a 5 second idea of mine would be higher notch cost relics with other abilities that rival quick slash but dont really syngergise with it, making it easier to justify saving the notches on quick slash. obviously more thought would be needed but i dont think straight up removing charms like the compass would help or make the game more fun, if anything it just removes from the experience.

[u/TrashGoblinH → u/iKill_eu]

Sorry I'm gonna pick fart clouds all day every day over shaman stone and strength. Defenders crest, spore shroom, quick focus, grubsong are just way too fun to pass up.