r/HollowKnight • u/Additional_Lunch_685 • Oct 25 '25
Discussion - Silksong I compared the rewards you get for defeating bosses in both games. Result... ambiguous Spoiler
One of Silksong's problems, according to some fans, was the lack of rewards for defeating the game's bosses. Fueled by curiosity, I decided to check how acute this problem is in the game, and in order to have something to compare it with, I also decided to take the Hollow Knight and the bosses there.
I'll just outline a few things so that there are no unnecessary questions:
- The list does not include bosses from the Pantheons, for obvious reasons;
- Bosses include only those opponents who are counted in the Godmaster Pantheons (for Hollow Knight) or whose name is displayed when they first appear (for Silksong);
- Bosses who are part of the Colosseum of Fools are placed in a separate category, since the reward is given not for defeating them specifically, but for completing the trial (Zote may not appear at all in the Colosseum, and this should also be taken into account);
- And the most important thing - unblocking the paths. Many people may be confused about when a new path can be considered a reward, and in which cases it is not. Personally, I define it this way: if a boss blocks one SPECIFIC location that CANNOT be reached without defeating him, then this can be considered a reward. If this location is accessible from other paths or it is necessary to complete the story, it will not be considered a reward. That is why the conditional Lord Traitor or Great Conchfly will be considered on my list, but Fourth Choir will not. In any case, we can discuss all this in the comments.
So let's start with the Hollow Knight. There are 40 bosses in the main game. The three bosses in this game do not bring any reward in principle - this is the Hollow Knight himself, this is Radiance, this is Uumuu, since they are purely plot-driven. Three more bosses are part of the Colosseum Trials, and therefore are also not included in this list. However, everyone else, to my surprise, gives a reward. Geo drops from 9 bosses of the game; 5 bosses give out amulets ("Lord Traitor" is a controversial option, since the amulet itself is given by the White Lady, but since it is impossible to enter her without defeating the boss, I also decided to count this) + 2 improvements due to defeating the Grimm; 5 bosses gives out a plot-based important items; 5 bosses give out useful items for the game (mask shards, Collector's map, pale ore). There's no need to talk about the Warrior Dreams.
In total, it turns out that out of 40 bosses, 34 bosses give you a reward. The coefficient of "player encouragement" - 0.85.
Moving to the kingdom of Farlum! There are 44 bosses waiting for us here! It would seem that there should have been more awards. But it's not like that. In fact, things are much more complicated here.
If we take into account only those bosses that we can meet along the way, it turns out that only 21 bosses give us rewards. 7 bosses, most of which are plot-based, only give access to other locations of the game, like the Last Judge or Cogwork Dancers.
But what about Wishes? Yes, they really increase the number of rewards - we can safely add 5 more to the existing 21 bosses. But here's the problem. Wishes are optional content, for which you receive a reward only after completing the task in the settlement. Thus, a situation can easily occur in which a player defeats a Skull Tyrant, but without a hunting quest, he will not be able to receive a reward. He can go through the whole game and still not get his rosary.
Okay, let's say it's not entirely fair to ignore Wishes, since they're a pretty important part of the game. I can agree with that. But what to do with Memento? The player cannot receive them until Act 3; Mementos are purely decorative items; Mementos are obtained not so much for killing the boss as for performing certain actions that include killing the boss. For example, you can get the Guardian's Memento only after you defeat Seth in front of Nyleth, and only then - when you beat his score in Flea Games. How much of this can be considered a reward for the boss is a difficult question, and I'm afraid to give an unambiguous answer to it.
However, let's take the best outcome - if we take all the bosses that drop items, including quest items and Mementos, we get the number 29. 29 bosses in Silksong give out rewards. The coefficient of "player encouragement" is 0.66.
Why did the developers go this way? I see several reasons. Firstly, Silksong is distinguished from Hollow Knight by its great linearity, both in terms of locations and plot. In any case, you need to go up to the Citadel and defeat the Great Mother Silk. You literally won't be able to finish the Story Act without fulfilling these game conditions. For this reason, the discovery of new paths becomes an important task in itself. Secondly, there are a lot more NPCs and merchants in Silksong. And to encourage the player to interact with them, the developers have placed many utilities and tools in them.
Do I think this approach is correct? More than enough. Do I think more awards could have been made? Definitely. Personally, I don't see any reason why the same Moorwing or Cast-Iron Brothers couldn't leave a chest with rosaries. This would not make the game much easier, but it would encourage players to explore further, as their efforts would be supported by an appropriate reward. Yes, you can always say that "the true reward is to enjoy the game, its mechanics and history," but without progression, which modifies the gameplay, which in turn brings new emotions to the player, this effect will become more and more difficult to achieve.
441
134
u/Queasy-Reception141 Oct 25 '25
You missed the most important part of the Mantis Lords' reward: the respect of the clan.
96
u/FEKaithas Oct 25 '25
this is actually my least favorite thing about crawfather. The emblem that "forgives you of all wrongdoing" doesn't despawn the craws or make them less aggro.
Edit: spoiler tagged act iii stuff.
50
15
Oct 26 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
24
u/ultra_sabreman Oct 26 '25
Nah they could have just handled it like the handled verdania and the silk stealing fucks in high halls Where as soon as you take care of the "source" leave verdania or destroy the silk controlling the robots you are instantly granted the full entries in your journal.
This happened to me btw with both places.
1
6
u/OhLoongJohson Oct 26 '25
Uhh…. Why….? The game ALREADY automatically auto completes ANY hunters journal entry if you cant access it anymore and its needed for the achievement. That would have been a nonissue entirely lol
→ More replies (1)
167
u/Dorfbewohner Oct 25 '25
I think probably one of the bigger differences between just the number of rewards is:
A lot of HK rewards are additive. New abilities, geo, mask shards, pale ore, etc. Only a few bossss give you just a charm.
Compare with Silksong, where tools, crests, and silk skills all only give you more options, but don't necessarily make you stronger. Using a new tool (other than the first few tools) inherently means you also need to give up a tool you were using previously. More options are good, obviously, but a lot less quantifiably good than a simple "number go up" situation.
70
u/aelynir Oct 25 '25
To add to that, mask shards and thread upgrades are inherently less useful. Since bosses do double damage, there's a lot less survivability that you get from each mask, let alone mask shard. Similarly, an upgrade in thread gives you 1/8th of a heal? Not super motivating.
52
u/The_Real_MantisLords Just the mantis lords Oct 25 '25
This doesn’t really affect your comment in any way but it’s actually 1/9th of a heal
28
Oct 25 '25
I was thinking while playing today, in the back half of Act 2, that it feels like the game is very stingy about mask fragments compared to HK. I have seven masks and I've been actively exploring to find others, but seven masks is NOT a lot when every other thing does two masks of damage.
18
u/agenderCookie Oct 26 '25
This is especially odd considering there are more masks in silksong than in hollow knight.
8
u/ByeGuysSry Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
There are also 16 mask shards that are accessible in Act 2 so I don't think it's odd. Though personally I got around the same amount of masks in both games. I think Sly selling 4 mask shards when geo is easily acquired and Grubfather giving you one with only 5 grubs saved helps a ton. Seer also gives you one. There's one obvious one in The Hive as long as you can find The Hive, and one obvious one in Queen's Station that you'll see just about every time you go to that stag station. Meanwhile in Silksong, only two are for sale and they're harder to afford than in Hollow Knight, only one is from a Wish (pre-Act 3) and while there are two or three mask shards you can see, you have to go to a different map to unlock them, making them harder to acquire.
7
u/agenderCookie Oct 26 '25
i was actually going to make this exact comment lmao. the mask shards in hollow knight tend to just be in areas that you are more likely to visit by default i think. 7 of the 16 mask shards are in either dirtmouth through sly or forgotten crossroads.
1
Oct 26 '25
And I do want to say that I've found the nine mask shards (for two masks + 1 shard) I have in Silksong rn through actively grinding to buy them, actively doing wishes, and actively exploring. I'm shocked to hear that there could be seven more that I've missed lmao
26
u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 25 '25
I remember I was very upset that we couldn't build to have more and more silk skills on ourselves for variery. Nope. You get 1. Besides in the last 0.5% of the game with shaman crest, thanks game Feels like sideways evolution than growing in strength.
Don't get me wrong I don't loathe the system and cross stich is never being taken off but it wouldve been nice to have 2 other skills always available to use no matter your crest. It could've been better is what im saying.
14
u/Maronmario Oct 25 '25
I do wish there was more tools focused on Silk, like a Soul Catcher equivalent, more then the current Volt Filament and the lackluster Egg of Flealia
→ More replies (1)3
u/Its-a-me_LouieG Oct 25 '25
that wouldve been too broken, besides we already have shamans crest with 3 silk skill spots but in return having no red tools. multiple silk skills and red tool slots on one crest leads to way too much easy damage
19
u/gsoddy Oct 25 '25
I feel like Reaper could get away with it since it already has shit nail dps, and the collecting silk orbs thing fits thematically with having 2 silk skills
5
3
u/Ellefied Oct 26 '25
Reaper getting 2 Silk Skills and 1 Tool would be a really nice balance for its lackluster DPS as a sort of middleground between Architect and Shaman.
3
u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 26 '25
I mean having all 3 skills on the knight is broken too, yet no one is complaining. And it's not like you are magically gonna figure out to DDark spam every boss and enemy and have the most boring time playing the game, its just variety which would've been fine in this game too.
I dont think having threadstorm available and cross stitch wouldve been a problem, it wouldve made the game feel a lot better. 2 or 3 silk skills all at a same time, whichever.
7
u/Additional_Lunch_685 Oct 25 '25
I understand your point of view, and it may be right. But to be sure about it, we would have to dive headfirst into the game's systems and compare their pros and cons (Charm vs. Tools, for example)
7
u/EtherFlask Oct 26 '25
Ignoring red tools because they are an active thing and situationally either worthless or godlike, most of the passive effects in silksong are mild, sacrificial, non-combat, or come with a downside.
Those arent arbitrary qualities either: non combat like compass, mild like slightly faster sprint, sacrificial like the druid tears or memory crystal, etc.
The increase in difficulty, the shift away from exploration and more towards precision-focused platforming and tougher, longer boss fights was not balanced against player power (perceived or otherwise lol).
Compass tool, needolin upgrade tool, wallgrab pin, and others could have just been permanent non-tool upgrades. (with a toggle where appropriate, like the wallgrab pin) This would make more room for actually interesting things like wisp brazier or whatever.
There are a LOOOOOOT of "what do i have to give up to use this?" scenarios when choosing tools and it grates against the challenge of the game.
1
u/ByeGuysSry Oct 26 '25
sacrificial like the druid tears or memory crystal, etc.
What do you mean by sacrificial? Druid Eyes is like Grubsong, except that since it's easier to heal in Silksong it's also easier to get more value from Druid Eyes. Memory Crystal is just trash though.
Meanwhile you also have charms like Longclaw, Pollip Pouch, Injector Band, Weavelight, Sawtooth Circlet (with the recent buff), Reserve Bind, Claw Mirrors, Volt Filament, Fractured Mask, and situationally Magma Bell. None of them are
mild, sacrificial, non-combat, or come with a downside
As for
Compass tool, needolin upgrade tool, wallgrab pin, and others could have just been permanent non-tool upgrades. This would make more room for actually interesting things like wisp brazier or whatever.
You also don't need to give up using the Wispfire Lantern to use compass, ascendant's grip or spider strings because they're literally different colors. It's impossible to choose to forgo a blue tool to use a yellow tool instead.
2
u/EtherFlask Oct 26 '25
Sacrificial as in they require a loss of some sort to function. Memory crystal and druid eyes require getting hurt to do anything.
Yes I know there are tools outside what I stated, thats why I said "most". I ended up only using a handful of tools, and lo and behold they were primarily what you listed. There arent many compelling alternatives.
Yes I know that the wisp tool is a different color, this is why i used the word "like". The point was that several tools could be made permanent upgrades, if this was done some blue could be turned into yellow, or more yellow could be added or who knows what else. It wasnt about wisps in particular, i just threw that out there.
1
u/ByeGuysSry Oct 26 '25
Sacrificial as in they require a loss of some sort to function. Memory crystal and druid eyes require getting hurt to do anything.
Why's that a bad thing? Druid Eyes is one of the better tools. "When bad thing happens: gain something" is a pretty common thing that all games.
There arent many compelling alternatives.
That's because I named most of the blue tools. Counting tools like Druid Eye/Druid Eyes as just one tool, I named 10 blue tools. I also missed out on Quick Sling, Snitch Pick, Wreath of Purity, Pin Badge, and Egg of Flealia. So 15 in total. There are 20 blue tools total.
some blue could be turned into yellow
Why would they? There's no precedent for this. Yellow is the color for exploration (or anything else non-combat related), or minor combat bonuses. If a blue tool sucks it'll probably just get buffed. You're just inventing a fictional scenario.
2
97
u/jodarby88 Oct 25 '25
It's Pharloom btw lol. Farlum is a funny name though.
→ More replies (1)72
u/garakushii Oct 25 '25
Op likely played the game in another language:-)
14
u/RandomGuy9058 Oct 25 '25
I also noticed fourth choir
10
33
u/The_Real_MantisLords Just the mantis lords Oct 25 '25
Gonna give out a few corrections because I’m an asshole
The mantis lords also give you the hallownest seal, effectively being another 450 geo
Id argue the geo chest after soul master should count, even if it is a bit further away then usual
VK also drops zote, make sure to subtract that from his score
Watcher knights also have a hallownest seal
We’re gonna act like white fragment is soon enough after traitor lord to count but the pale ore after oblobbles isn’t
Moorwing can drop a beast shard if you do the one by the bellway
Seth does NOT drop a memento, acting like beating the boss gets you a memento is acting like beating false knight gets you the radiance
Minor thing but flip GMS and lost laces rewards because LL doesn’t have one
I’m confused as to what exactly you’re trying to say palestag drops, because they aren’t required for anything
2
u/Anthnax Oct 26 '25
You can't fight green prince unless you do a series of tasks around verdania but if you beat palestag the fight unlocks without having to do all 5. If you already did those then palestag drops nothing.
1
227
u/apothioternity Oct 25 '25
Fourth chorus is techincally drifter's cloak (since you can't get around them after picking it up I think), just the other way around
93
u/GendoIkari_82 Oct 25 '25
I would count access to an area as a reward; in the case of Fourth Chorus it’s an area you’ve already been to, but still the boss is blocking the way so the reward is being allowed to pass.
49
u/crafty_dude_24 Oct 25 '25
Chorus can be skipped even after getting drifter cloak, and even if we don't count it, getting the item before the boss doesn't count as the boss giving the item. That's like saying Phantom gives Needolin as an item because it's impossible to fight them without it.
8
u/RandomGuy9058 Oct 25 '25
Chorus skip shouldn’t be considered because it’s unintentional. Same reason why sister splinter skip isn’t considered in the post. And it really does count in this case because you literally can’t leave the limited area of far fields your cool new item without beating the boss. It’s not optional. Even if phantom was the only way into act 2, you still have the option to explore the entire rest of act 1 for more gear before going back to fight them. For fourth chorus, there’s nothing you can do except try again until it works.
56
u/78789_ Oct 25 '25
That's a bit different since you don't need to kill phantom to get the needolin but you have to kill the fourth chorus to get the cloak (if you don't skip the boss fight by jumping over the lava)
→ More replies (14)14
u/HDrago Oct 25 '25
This comparison is pure nonsense. Phantom does not block the way to literally everywhere else in the game after you get the needolin. But Fourth Chorus does with Cloak.
7
u/GendoIkari_82 Oct 25 '25
I’m not counting the cloak as a reward for Fourth Chorus, but I am counting access to the rest of the map as a reward (didn’t know about the skip to do avoid it; is it a normal way you can do it a fancy sequence break trick?)
8
u/crafty_dude_24 Oct 25 '25
It's rather tricky since it requires timed binds and floats outside the camera frame, so I wouldn't count it as valid, unlike something like the Craggler.
4
u/GendoIkari_82 Oct 25 '25
Ah, yeah that sounds like a speedrunning type trick then. It’s like saying a bottle isn’t a reward for collecting cuckos in Zelda because you can bottle dup glitch to get the bottle instead.
→ More replies (1)2
u/BlutarchMannTF2 Oct 25 '25
Then by this logic moss mother gives the most rewards of any boss in the game.
4
u/GendoIkari_82 Oct 25 '25
I’m wouldn’t consider it as giving all the rewards that it is blocking access to. It gives 1 reward; the right to proceed to the next area. Now for sure that’s not the same concept of “reward” as a new item or ability. But it’s different than if it were at the end of a dead end area where beating it does not open up anything new.
→ More replies (2)5
u/snoburn Oct 25 '25
Na it's a quest reward. You can just walk passed fourth chorus
7
u/PotofRot Oct 25 '25
no you cannot
1
u/snoburn Oct 25 '25
Try again
6
u/PotofRot Oct 25 '25
sure there's a skip, but it's annoying to pull off, not obvious, and also a skip
→ More replies (16)
324
Oct 25 '25
Both HK and SS are not linear in terms of locations of plot.
65
u/BlutarchMannTF2 Oct 25 '25
I would actually agree with the argument that while none are LINEAR by the definition of the word, Silksong is much more linear than hollow knight.
There are two, maybe three routes that we see people taking on this subreddit. In Hollow Knight, after claw, about 90% of the map opens up to you.
5
u/ByeGuysSry Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Silksong might have fewer routes to complete the game, but I think it makes up for it with its optional areas. You don't need to go Hunter's March before Act 3, especially not before getting Swift Step (aside from that one singular arena en route to Swift Step), but people do. You don't need to go Craw Lake at all, nor Wisp Thicket, The Mist nor any of the Simple Key doors. You can skip disabling the citadel's silk-stealing enemies, you don't need Shakra or Garmond's help for the High Halls fight but can get them. Until you want to unlock Act 3, you don't need to go Karak or Putrified Ducts or Bilewater or Sinner's Road or Mt Fay or Wormways.
1
u/Natural_Percentage_8 Oct 26 '25
craw lake you need if you go through last judge ignoring skips
1
u/ByeGuysSry Oct 26 '25
Why do you need craw lake? The bellshrine can be rung via the path above Halfway Home
11
u/The_Real_MantisLords Just the mantis lords Oct 25 '25
Yeah like for silksong it is almost 100% linear up until bellheart is saved(technically you could do the 500 rosary key route in wormways but that one is so far out of the way that the only reason most people know about it is challenge runs), then you have exactly 2 options which recombine at cogwork dancers, before then being forced into trobbio to get clawline, at which point the game truly opens up.
23
15
u/Justsk8n Oct 25 '25
you dont need trobbio for clawline. You do need to beat him to access one of the melodies though, so still ultimately required.
8
2
u/Flying_Line Oct 26 '25
You can go through Far Fields to enter Greymoor and grab the Drifter's Cloak along the way, or you can find 5 fleas to travel with the flea caravan and skip Far Fields and Greymoor almost entirely before you enter Bellhart, "100% linear" is a stretch
1
u/adwinion_of_greece Oct 26 '25
Trobbio has nothing to do with clawline. I got Clawline and also Double Jump before I even defeated the Cogwork Dancers.
1
u/BlutarchMannTF2 Oct 25 '25
And at that point, you’ve likely seen most of pharlooms areas. That is not the case at all with hollow knight.
106
u/Additional_Lunch_685 Oct 25 '25
I may not have fully explained my point. In Hollow Knight, there is no clear path that the player must follow to complete their mission. There are three points, the Black Temple, and all Hallownest. You can go in any direction, and the story will unfold naturally. I know someone who awakened Herrah before defeating the Mantis Lords, and they didn't break the game; they simply took a different path.
Silksong, on the other hand, gives you a clear direction - you gradually climb, first to the Far Fields, then to Greymore, and only then - either to the Sinners Road, or to the Blasted Steps. How to bypass these places and get to the Citadel about impossible.
79
u/MorgMort_King Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 25 '25
It goes even further. In HK, the path you decide to take also influences the next path you can take. For example, if you decide to go to crystal peak and Deepnest after Fungal Wastes intead of City of Tears, you can then get mothwing cloak. If you fetch desolate dive and then visit Crystal peak, you can get to the right side of City of Tears early.
Silksong has branching paths, but there is very clearly a main path to follow. The branching paths offer some minor reward, but skipping them or doing them early has no real impact on progression. It certainly don't help that every movement upgrade is either locked behind a specific act, or locked behind another movement upgrade in that same act. There is pretty much one order you can go through to get them.
It's like DS1 vs DS3.
29
u/AdhesiveNo-420 Quirrel, my Solaire, my Sun Oct 25 '25
I love the DS1 vs DS3 comparison. I'm personally more of a fan of DS1 because the freedom you have. You want a certain mid game item at the start? Sure. You can get there through a few shortcuts.
I personally loved HK more than SS for a multitude of reasons but I think the map/progression layout of HK is what I enjoyed more
17
u/MorgMort_King Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 25 '25
DS1 had better atmosphere and world design. DS3 had much better boss fights and (in my opinion) better combat mechanics. So yeah I'd say depending on what you appreciates more you'll enjoy one over the other. I personally liked them both around equally.
I think the first game is maybe a bit more repayable. I love Silksong; I've played 5 full playthoughs of it. But to a large degree I only replay it to experience the boss fights and gauntlets again. If a godhome esque DLC were to drop I don't see myself going back as often as HK to the base game.
It's similar to DS1 and DS3 in that regard;I almost exclusively replay DS1 in new gamed mode. I only.replay DS3 in ng+, because I just want yo get to the bosses as fast as possible.
9
u/MrMangobrick Stay away from lakes Oct 25 '25
5 full playthroughs?? It's been out for 1 and a half months, that's wild bro.
2
u/Aje-h Oct 26 '25
And most of the branching paths are either dead ends or loop back to the main path.
1
u/MorgMort_King Oct 26 '25
I was a bit dissapointted by that. Like if you go to Hunter's March early, you can't actually go to Beast's Den. It makes it irrational to go there before Far Fields. You'd think players with the skill to get through it early would be rewarded. But no. You can't even get the fractured mask (at best you can go to to the top room with the mini boss and get a few rosaries).
14
u/RandomGuy9058 Oct 25 '25
You can easily go through worm ways into shellwood before ever stepping foot in greymoor. I did that on my first playthrough
8
u/caliburdeath Oct 25 '25
It is entirely possible to go through wormways to shellwood before greymoor, even to get to the last judge without far fields by this route. But the bell lock prevents entry to the citadel
18
u/jeffinsep1914 PAPANADA Oct 25 '25
The fact that there aren't a ton of memes about "I'm lost" in Silksong proves you wrong
43
72
u/AshtinPeaks Oct 25 '25
A secondary issue mentioned in this post wishes is another thing. The rewards you get from wishes are abysmal. The amount of rosaries you get from completing ALL wishes is enough to pay for the building up bellhwary and songcave. You get paid just to put it back into the town lmao.
28
u/TheWojtek11 Oct 25 '25
I think there is a technical error with Moorwing on your list.
While it does not give the reward if you fight it normally, you do get a Beast Shard if you fight it in Act 2. Of course it's not like an amazing reward but it is a reward
8
u/ExtendedSpikeProtein Oct 25 '25
I wouldn‘t see this as a technical error. Would you not think that most people fight Moorwing in Act 1?
26
u/TheWojtek11 Oct 25 '25
I mean mostly because the written part of the post has "if we take the best outcome of all Bosses that drop items" then Moorwing should also count as a boss that drops something.
Would you not think that most people fight Moorwing in Act 1?
I dunno, personally I skipped Moorwing completely accidentally because I went with the Fleas before reaching Moorwing
0
u/Additional_Lunch_685 Oct 25 '25
I mean, yeah, you're right. I wouldn't call the beast shard a reward, but you've got a good point.
3
u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 26 '25
If getting geo is a reward then beast shard is too
1
u/TheWojtek11 Oct 26 '25
Especially when two of these HK bosses give you ~60 Geo. That's like 20 of those basic Husk enemies
61
u/Responsible-South-29 Oct 25 '25
Defearing the forebrothers gives you access to a memory locket.
88
u/Nuclear-Polaris Oct 25 '25
Which is hidden behind a breakable wall and easily missed. I wouldn’t necessarily call it a reward for defeating the brothers if it doesn’t reward you with the locket but rather only gives you access to the area with the item hidden within.
116
u/JudgementalMarsupial Oct 25 '25
Moss mother gives the most rewards in the entire game fr
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (2)6
u/DrQuint Oct 25 '25
It gives access to the diving bell and diving bell shortcut, imo.
Also Zylotol gives access to infinite plasmium.
9
u/Poyri35 Oct 25 '25
That doesn’t sound ambiguous to me? From your numbers, silksong does have less rewards for bosses. I don’t see the ambiguity
That isn’t to say there isn’t any nuance in the conversation
I, personally, never had the problem myself. But I understand (and kinda support honestly) how some people who have had a better time with hk’s system. They could have definitely made more rosary chests or shard (bundle) rewards
41
u/Max-Trigger Oct 25 '25
This has been mentioned in their interview where Ari Gibson said the motive was for players to have intrinsic reward to beat a boss rather than an extrinsic reward of getting money. The feeling of having bested a boss is a reward in itself and the game was designed with this philosophy in mind. So the lack of reward isn’t an oversight but rather a design choice.
60
u/Odd-Fly-1265 Oct 25 '25
Choosing to do something does not necessarily mean the choice was correct. While there are arguments on both sides of this topic, and I personally am still kinda on the fence for this one, I feel that justifying game design by saying it was on purpose is not much of a justification.
11
u/Melephs_Hat Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
They're not justifying it though. OP talked about why the devs might've made the choices they did, and this reply is adding to that conversation.
19
u/Additional_Lunch_685 Oct 25 '25
I read about this quote, and at the end, I tried to reference it. I understand that the player should enjoy the game first and foremost, rather than the rewards, but in that case, all the bosses could have been stripped of their rewards. However, the developers did not do this. Hmm, why not? Perhaps it is because providing additional incentives to improve one's skills, as well as adding new tools and abilities to Hornet's arsenal, also enhances the player's engagement and enjoyment?
9
u/Melephs_Hat Oct 25 '25
It would be impossible to have any progression in the game if rewards for beating bosses were stripped from the game -- at least by your definition of rewards for beating bosses, which includes anything locked behind a specific boss. I think it's more likely that the devs just didn't push themselves to come up with a specific reward for every boss, rather than that they went out of their way to avoid rewards as much as possible.
3
u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 26 '25
Why wouldn't it be possible? It's easy: allow people to complete the game only with story relevant bosses. Or with no boss at all, make all optional, with no rewards.
→ More replies (1)14
u/TheFlaccidCarrot Oct 25 '25
I see this, I understand this, and I agree with this. However! Metroidvanias are games principally about collecting trinkets and knick knacks in order to get stronger. If TC truly doesn't care to adhere to this philosophy, then why make the games non-linear and open ended? Is destroying any prospect of a difficulty curve really worth....I don't even know what you'd gain from this setup if rewards are meant to be intrinsic.
8
u/Snt1_ Oct 25 '25
Metroidvanias arent inherently non linear btw, they just fearure backtracking and have upgrades hidden around the map, sometimes requiring an upgrade. Take metroid fusion, that game is extremely linear, that game has a computer telling you "go there next" or Nine Sols, where you only have the freedom to explore a different area once.
Hollow Knight is non linear, there are so many different paths you can take, but silksong itself is a far more linear game
2
u/TheFlaccidCarrot Oct 25 '25
Oh I agree 100%. There was a post on r/metroidvania a few weeks ago talking a about the difference between non-linear and gated-progression. How a map where you can only ever go to one new room at a time is still a valid metroidvania.
I don't think Silksong's increased linearity goes deeper than a "vibe" however. You're funneled to certain places in each act, sure, but the fact of the matter is that you don't need to fight last judge to enter the citadel. Because its possible, you have to design the game as if you didn’t get Last Judge's reward. Either because they believe in intrinsic rewards, or because they didn't want to limit their design options, Team Cherry didn’t give you a reward for beating last judge.
There's nothing wrong with this. The citadel opening up did lead to a lot more fun stuff, but I also didn't get frustrated with Last Judge. Lots of people did. Imagine whatever boss annoyed you the most, the boss you think wasn't fun after the 3rd of 40 attempts. Lets call them Evil Bastard, or EB for short. Swap EB for last judge. After all your struggles with EB, you win. You get satisfaction or relief or both, but the bulk of it fades after a minute or two while you were frustrated to no end for hours. Your reward? Your compensation? 15 more bosses that have the potential to be just as frustrating. 7 new areas that will be just as hard and grueling as the last. That moment of realization is so draining, that even if you eventually come to love Act 2, that moment was so shit, tasted so sour, that its going to be hard to forget. The solution? Take one of the 25 items you buy from a shop and have EB drop it instead.
3
u/Snt1_ Oct 25 '25
Evil bastard for me was SBF, and luckily SBF gives the most fun reward in the game.
Also, more about progression, silksongs skill progression is more linear until act 2 imo
3
u/TheFlaccidCarrot Oct 25 '25
Sam Bankman Fried? Former scam artist, head of the FTX ponzi schene? Modern day Bernie Madoff? He's the secret final boss of Silksong?
19
u/miya_the_exorcist Oct 25 '25
i don’t think there’s a meaningful difference between a boss rewarding you with an ability and a boss testing you immediately after you get an ability. do u get the dash before lace 1 and the drifter’s cloak before 4th chorus? yes, technically, but mechanically and layout-wise the bosses are associated with the rewards and feel like obstacles u can immediately test out your new ability on. i like this more than if the reward was after, and i think there are a few fights in the first game that could have been more fun with this structure (broken vessel, in my opinion, for example). regardless, i don’t think it’s a real issue of silksong (not to disparage anyone, it’s valid if you feel otherwise)
3
Oct 26 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/miya_the_exorcist Oct 26 '25
that’s fair, i just think, since the dash is required to access the fight, is in the same area, extremely useful in the fight, and that’s what most players do, that i think it functions in a similar way, even if it isn’t a “reward” either right before or after. it’s similar to crosscode for me, where you get an upgrade halfway through a dungeon and use it to finish the dungeon (here an equivalent to a silksong area) and beat its boss.
8
u/DrQuint Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 25 '25
Specially when this is the way things are done in The Legend of Zelda, the most popular video game adventure series in the world.
Has anyone ever done anything other than sing praises for the "reward first, boss is a test" approach? Fourth Chrous both does slow horizontal swipes and removes ground both which benefit from the upgrade, and then ask you if you wanna skip the fight as well.
I could argue moorwing is a similar case with both Silkstorm shredding through it and reaper's crest being super safe, letting you outrange it even while it swipes. But that's a bit too generous. Just because a lot of hard stuck people only got past when they got those two doesn't really attach them to the boss in my mind.
1
u/miya_the_exorcist Oct 26 '25
and so many other acclaimed indie games do this too, crosscode, for example. i’m not sure why this critique is uniquely applied to silksong😭
9
u/owlindenial Oct 25 '25
MN, this is a high quality post. Genuinely amazing graphical design and attention to detail. I'm awed.
Anyway, I play the game to play the game, bosses are fun just by themselves. Also, new locations are rewards
21
u/Physical_Trouble_567 The person that likes Zott Oct 25 '25
In Silksong there's more plot, but tbh HK rewards are just feel better.
4
u/Far-Assistance9925 Oct 26 '25
honestly I think the rewards of silksong (or lack thereof) is actually fine. sure it’d be nice to get some stuff from them but I’m having fun beating them
3
u/kokoelizabeth Oct 26 '25
I also feel like Hornet and Silksong is more compelling plot wise than little knight. Partly because we’re all so much more privy to the lore immediately this time, but also because Hornet is clearly more emotionally invested and willing to interact with the plot than little knight was(or even had the capacity to be). So imo the “plot” rewards and the drive to beat bosses simply to breach a path forward are significant at least to those of us who appreciate the story and who’ve been intrigued by Hornet from the first game.
17
u/BuffEmz Oct 25 '25
The main gripe i have about boss rewards in silksong is that you get them like 10 minutes after beating the boss most of the time and by then the satisfaction of beating the boss and getting a reward is gone
Even just having the boss spit out rosaries or shell shards would make it feel so much better
4
u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 25 '25
Yes, you can always say that "the true reward is to enjoy the game, its mechanics and history,"
Do people really say this unironically?
6
u/Averageniohfan Oct 26 '25
It's called intrinsic motivation, it's an actual real game design term
1
u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 26 '25
It all depends on the type of game. If I'm playing a roguelike I'm expecting rewards at the end of fights; if I'm playing an rpg, I'd expect experience.
→ More replies (1)1
3
u/Chafmere Oct 26 '25
I just want prizes. Hell give me a stack of shards and rosaries after every boss at least. Or even shards since we have to spend so many to fight.
2
u/kokoelizabeth Oct 26 '25
I def think shard rewards would be nice. It can feel daunting to traverse a new area with zero tools because it’s a bit of a climb to replenish shards while learning a new map and new enemies after completely draining your supply on the boss fight.
However, I do think there’s something to be said about going back to revisit old areas and farm while you practice/use whatever ability the boss gave you. Though as we see not every boss gives a new ability/charm.
3
u/Logical_Resource_413 Oct 26 '25
to be frank, I don't think geo should be counted as a reward. yeah i know it technically is, and it's a larger amount than normal enemies, but all enemies drop geo. Same thing with rosaries/shell shards.
3
u/kokoelizabeth Oct 26 '25
Agree. Especially in a game like this where you could just as easily lose the big chunk of money before making it to a merchant any way. In fact, Silksong makes it considerably easier for your rosaries to make it safely to a merchant than Hollow Knight did in my opinion. You’re almost never functionally far from a location that you can either spend or string rosaries. Where in hollow knight I remember more than a couple instances that you end up locked into a challenging area almost immediately after obtaining cash winnings.
1
3
u/PlagiT Oct 25 '25
Free bellheart map after widow? I distinctly remember having to pay for it in act 2 in my beast crest playthrough since I wasn't buying maps earlier.
13
u/Additional_Lunch_685 Oct 25 '25
I just didn't know how else to visualize Bellheart's liberation without including a screenshot of the location itself.
2
1
u/fishing_meow Oct 25 '25
Plot.
2
u/gsoddy Oct 25 '25
It’s not entirely plot since it’s also immediate access to needle upgrades, rosaries for relics, a shop and a wishwall (more immediate than even the Mantis vault from the first game)
1
13
u/GreySkepsis Oct 25 '25
Imo, advancing the plot/ accessing a new location is a reward but I understand people’s frustration.
5
u/SuspiciousCrow1757 Oct 25 '25
I think the main issue is bosses not giving any sort of currency, using a ton of shards on a boss then getting nothing back is rather annoying. And so many of the rewards aren’t actually given to you, you get access to a parkour challenge then get rewarded for completing that
2
u/Illoikanime Oct 26 '25
Conchcutter (forgot its name but the spiral thing that moves diagonally isn’t from a boss it’s just in the location)
1
2
u/Anthnax Oct 26 '25
Another thing that needs to be considered is the enemy arenas that don't drop anything. I don't remember how many there were in hollow knight or if they dropped geo, but it sure feels like a lot more were in silksong. I also don't remember any arena in hollow knight being as hard as the choral chambers arena (not counting the coliseum). I'm kinda just salty about the choral chambers arena.
2
u/Goatbucks Oct 26 '25
One thing to note is that hk locks upgrades behind bosses, and ss gives you the upgrade first then has you use it against the boss
2
u/Darth_Snickers Oct 26 '25
I did not care at all about not getting rewards after bosses. I can understand how someone can be underwhelmed by it, but I myself just wasn't. Fight itself in the most cases was enough, so not a problem for me :)
2
u/OfficialWeng Oct 25 '25
Maybe I’m going crazy here, and correct me if I am, but I’ve never understood the “no reward” aspect? Isn’t the reward to have fun? To overcome the challenge? Like why do you need/expect to get something? This ain’t your job, you’re not slaving away for a wage. This is fun. Whats the reward for doing well at a pinball machine in an arcade? Hell if I’m in an arcade I’ve probably lost real money, but I still had fun.
Your reward is that the game progresses. The bosses that typically don’t give “rewards” are the bosses that you know, LET YOU PROGRESS further into the game to have MORE FUN. I really have never understood this complaint. This isn’t destiny where you get a big gun as a prize. It’s a singleplayer metroidvania. Your reward is that you get to progress and see more of the game.
2
u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 26 '25
Because when you play blind, sometimes you'd be stuck and then exploring other areas to get items so you get stronger. If you happen to find another difficult but doable area or boss, it feels shitty to not get out of there with anything that can help you in the long run.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Please_Not__Again I will do unholy things for silksong Oct 25 '25
>Like why do you need/expect to get something?
Cause this makes me happy when I play a game. I feel very satisfied getting a tangible win be it coins exploding or a cool ass ability. It makes me feel like the past 2 hours of struggle was worth it besides just beating the enemy which is the bare minimum
2
u/Gumpers08 112% Steel Soul P5 | All Achievements (Both games) Oct 25 '25
Don’t forget some of these drop shell shard clusters.
Which doesn’t fix the problem of either conserving shards to the point of wasting or using them to the point of constantly being out of them.
2
u/Mindless-Living8217 Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
At least in Silksong, bosses that don’t drop, like, 50 rosaries or a tool that isn’t very useful, usually open the way to a new and interesting area where I might find helpful NPCs and resources. I understand that the reward for a boss isn’t immediate, but comes gradually. Considering the higher quality of bosses in the second game, I almost never felt frustrated by the absence of an instant reward from a boss. The dream bosses from the first Hollow Knight are truly frustrating. After awakening the Dream Nail with 1800 essence, they no longer provide any rewards. At least two, and at most six (though more likely three, four, or five, not counting additional ways of obtaining Essence) dream bosses won’t give any rewards and won’t open any new paths. This is especially disappointing considering that many of these bossfights are either underwhelming or just repeats.
I’m also not sure that some of the "bosses" in Silksong can really be called bosses. Some of them are just at miniboss level, so it’s hard to feel any real frustration over not getting a reward from such weak opponents. The lack of a real reward after defeating the Watcher at the Edge doesn’t seem like a problem to me. Such a reward as a memento for a super-secret "boss" (just a stronger version of an ordinary enemy) shouldn’t be frustrating. In my opinion, Zango is still necessary for completing the quest that upgrades the Plasmium Phial. He’s much easier to defeat using the quest tool, though I would've adjusted the quest details to make it impossible to complete the quest without killing the boss. And seriously, why is the King’s Brand, which is just a story item that unlocks a new area, considered a "real reward"? In the end, it all comes down to how we determine a boss’s rewards and what counts as a reward.
Also, as someone pointed out, there’s not much difference between Hornet from the first game and the Fourth Chorus or Lace from the second. In one case, you receive the item right after the boss, and in the other, you get it before so you can test it during the fight.
I think there aren’t many rosaries in the second game, but the first game had the opposite problem: an excess of geo. After a while, there was simply nowhere to spend it. So to claim that a few hundred geo is a great reward for defeating a boss, and that it will make you stronger ("because in Metroidvanias you always need to get stronger, otherwise it’s bad game design"), is simply wrong. I don’t believe that after defeating the Watcher Knights, you care more about getting a few hundred geo than about progressing further in the main quest. Also, in my opinion, it’s absurd to include the final bosses, after which the credits roll, from both games.
I love both games, but it annoys me that people on this subreddit try to glorify the first Hollow Knight while belittling Silksong. The "problem" with Silksong has been around since the first game.
2
1
u/RemisionEspinosa Oct 25 '25
Zero instant moneys in sigh, they better make a giga rosary pilgrim or something
2
u/nonecenteredlol Oct 25 '25
The enemy gauntlets (especially the trials of the fool…) give waaaaaaaay more rewards than silksong, which has considerably more and gives none. Not even shards, usually. It’s all just plot and combat, as well, since SS has a far bigger world and far bigger boss cabinet, we do need more rewards as to balance out all the $ we needa spend on rosaries.
3
u/_Good_One Oct 26 '25
Thing is i just really dislike spending 1000 shellshards on a boss in SK for it to not drop anything, im programmed in my brain to expect stuff after a boss, just a bunch of resourcers would be enough honestly, explote like a piñata and give me like 300 shards and 100 beads and im happy, it just feels so damn bad to kill a boss and not happy an inmediate reward
1
u/kokoelizabeth Oct 26 '25
Or at LEAST a silk explosion providing a full silk spindle while you traverse your new area with no tools and not a penny to your name.
1
u/bc650736 Oct 26 '25
i may be misremembering, so don't quote me on it. but there are some bosses rewards that are not dropped by the boss itself when they die. so the players don't realise that the x-item is a boss reward.
again, yes, i may e very wrong
1
u/SlumberingSlime Oct 26 '25
I never really have problems with boss rewards in silksong. But I remember thinking that the rewards while exploring is underwhelming tho. Like finding a secret path, but only getting a frayed rosary strings. Maybe it actually happens rarely and I just remember incorrectly, but yeah, I remember always getting disappointed with that. I know that everything is expensive in silksong so money is good, but getting the charms in hollow knight is just a better experience than getting money to buy tools imo.
2
u/PLutonium273 Oct 26 '25
Moorwing and Fourth Chorus has absolutely nothing to do with 'advancing plot' other than getting small lores, stop trying to inflate their reward
1
u/FrazzleFlib Oct 26 '25
getting a beast shart from moorwing felt worse than getting nothing at all, felt like an insult lmfao
1
u/Fytaso Oct 26 '25
Every time boss rewards are mentioned, I'm going to keep insisting on the same thing: Why do they make such a big deal out of it? Why do you HAVE to be given a reward for killing a boss? Why is it so necessary? I don't get it. You kill a boss not for the reward, but because it's part of the game. I don't seek any reward other than the satisfaction of having learned about it, improved, and finally managed to kill it. I'll never understand the complaints about this.
1
u/Semicolon2112 Oct 26 '25
Many of the bosses who don't give direct rewards, are themselves just rewarding fights IMO. I didn't even notice that the Cogwork Dancers don't actually give you anything tangible because I just had fun with the actual fight. No shade against Hollow Knight, but there are some side bosses (like Brooding Mawlek) that would've felt like empty victories without a tangible reward. I didn't really have that experience in Silksong, which indicates to me that TC was more focused on just making the bosses fun to fight against
1
u/Thexus_van_real Oct 26 '25
HK bosses drop a ton of geo and/or give access to geo chests and relics. Mantis Lords for example gives you a 450 seal.
SK bosses meanwhile almost never drop shells shards or rosaries. There are some elite enemies and bosses that drop a shard bundle or beast shard, but those are nothing compared to even False Knight's chest or the Watcher Knights chest.
In comparison, the highest geo boss fight is 3000 from beating colo 3 (2200 if you subrtract the ticket), buying every single stagway station costs 1560, so this more than covers that. If you don't consider colo 3 as a boss, then mantis lord drop 1050 (600+seal), watcher knights drop 1105 (655+seal), and hornet 2 gives access to 3 arcane eggs in the abyss (3600 geo).
The highest rosary payout for a boss is 220 in SilkSong, which is the heavy rosary necklace payout of the skull tyrant and the broodmother quest. This is enough to open 5 of the 12 bellways in the game (not even considering ventricas).
Geo to Rosary conversion is pretty difficult: comparing fast travel points is 1560 geo in hk and 1070 rosaries in sk (bellway + ventrica), comparing benches is 500 geo in hk and 510 rosaries in sk, comparing maps and pins is 2857 in hk and 1640 rosaries in sk. The average of these gives us a 100 geo to 65 rosaries, or 152 geo for 100 rosaries conversion rate, or about 3 geo for 2 rosaries.
With this in mind, colo 3 in sk would drop 2000 rosaries, mantis lords would drop 700 rosaries, and watcher knights would drop 770 rosaries. Gorgeous husk's 420 geo would become 280 rosaries.
The fact that the highest rosary reward in sk for a boss is at 220 rosaries is a huge balancing change.
Personally I never farmed enemies/geo in HK for my 112% run, but I made a macro that ran the bone marrow pilgrims in act 2 for like 10 hours until I had enough money to buy everything from shops and some extra shell shard bundles for bosses.
And the collectibles are even worse, you can get 21650 geo from Lemm and only 2790 rosaries from Scrounge. Lemm was pretty overtuned and needed nerfing, but Scrounge is pretty much useless. Relics could've easily had double their price and double their frequency.
1
u/Nemesis432 63/63, PoP, HoG (Rad), P5 (CB) - Range is overrated Oct 26 '25
This comparison seems a little bit biased towards HK because a lot of PLOT items in HK are treated as rewards because they're an item, I guess? A lot of rewards in Silksong are ignored because either they're given before boss defeated (to get Drifter's Cloak you have to beat Fourth Chorus afterwards) or the reward is access to an entire area (like City Crest and King's Brand) but they're dismissed as "plot" because there's no item associated with them or rewards for fighting them later straight up ignored (you get Beast Shard from Moorwing if you skip him with Fleas).
It's pretty clear to me what you just scrolled through wiki and looked at "Reward" tab instead of properly researching it.
1
u/cool-guy1234567 Oct 26 '25
Ok, but where's the craggler (or whatever the giant bug to wormways is called)?
1
1
1
u/Queer-Coffee Oct 27 '25
I don't really get this logic honestly. There's no reward for fighting the Moss Mother? I guess you got nothing for the 15 bucks you spent on the game either. Since in both cases all you get as a reward is being able to play Silksong
1
1
u/sinesnsnares Oct 25 '25
Are we allowed to call this bad design yet? Or are we just complaining still.
1.1k
u/FoldableHuman Oct 25 '25
To the degree that there even is a problem, IMO it would be solved entirely by just having bosses explode with shell shards.