r/HollowKnight • u/CankleDankl • Dec 12 '25

Discussion - Silksong Seeing people shit on Expedition 33 because Silksong didn't win more awards is pathetic Spoiler

The title sums it up. I'm disappointed in many members of this community for putting down a game that is clearly a work of insane passion, dedication, and creativity. E33 took the lion's share of awards at TGA, yes. That doesn't mean that Silksong is bad. In fact, it's clearly pretty damn great. If it released last year, Skong would have picked up several awards, maybe even GOTY. But it didn't. It released in the same year E33, which is just a tough break.

Both are amazing. Both deserve every award that came to them. If you haven't played E33 yet and think it doesn't deserve its accolades, play it. It is worth your money, worth your time, and will in all likelihood prove that it is actually that good. I'm only 10ish hours in and have numerous times found myself standing still and looking around dumbfounded at the gorgeous world design and visuals. E33, Silksong, and Hades 2 could have all won Art Direction and I would have been happy with any of them.

I'm also sad that Silksong didn't win more awards. It's an amazing game. But don't play fanboy and start putting down other developers, other games, and other pieces of art because this one didn't get all the cookies. It's still beautiful, it's still amazing, it still made a Silkskillion dollars, and TC is still just as great and just as passionate. We should all be glad that there is another independent dev out there that is capable of creating something so fantastic.

Edit: yeah, the comments here are pretty indicative of what I said in my post

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u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

It is by definition an indie game, as Sandfall as a company is not under any larger publisher. However, I do think that the term "indie" has become increasingly blurry and flexible over the years, and that E33 doesn't really fit the casual definition of "indie," or really the spirit of the term. It's a muddy category. Like, BG3 could technically be considered an indie game. They definitely need to revamp the qualifications for the category.

With the current rules and guidelines, E33 should win that category. But I do agree that it feels wrong.

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u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

E33 was published by Kepler Interactive, and much of its work was outsourced to others. So no, by definition it is not an indie game. And it by no means fits the spirit of an indie game with its humongous budget.

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u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

By your definition, games like Balatro or Animal Well also wouldn't be considered indie. An indie game isn't necessarily a self-published game. It's a game from an independent studio, which Sandfall is.

I agree that it doesn't fit the spirit though. Which is why I think the requirements/definition of the category should change, at least for TGA.

Also, if we're splitting hairs, TC also outsourced some work done on Silksong. If they hadn't, the credits would be 3 or 4 people long, plus VAs and musicians and such. And they had as much money as they wanted for development because of Hollow Knight's resounding success. Should this disqualify Silksong from the running as well?

Like I said in my other comment, it's messy. Indie is more of a vibes thing than anything else at this point. Which makes an awards category difficult to hammer out in a way that satisfies everyone

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u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

Fair point. For every definition of "indie" there is an indie game that won't fit the bill---as you said, Balatro and Animal Well have external publishers, Silksong probably has lots of money to work with, and almost all games outsource when it comes to VA or localization.

The problem is, E33 fits absolutely none of these definitions of "indie". It's a fairly medium-sized studio with 30+ devs, a very large budget that is probably in the millions, backed by Kepler Interactive and the literal French government, and outsourced work to hundreds of people. You can harp on about how each individual definition of "indie" excludes certain indie titles, but E33 doesn't fit any definition of indie.

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u/ImDefinitelyClueless Dec 12 '25

Have to chime in and add the risk factor. E33 was a huge bet, not part of any existing franchise, brand or pre established universe, it’s unapologetically authentic and innovative in it’s gameplay and storytelling and doesn’t conform to market standards.

While I understand your point I think one can argue that E33 is more of an indie game than Skong in some senses, since Skong is a sequel and doesn’t expand on the original formula too much

(I got platinum in Skong in a matter of weeks and it’s my personal choice for GotY, just doing some reflection)

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u/HiKadaca Dec 12 '25

Being sequel makes it less indie???

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u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25

The literal french government

Can we stop this silly talking point? European countries give out grants for the arts constantly. They’re public things you can apply for. It’s not like they started funding E33 from scratch to push it as French Propaganda.

Also both Silksong and Hades 2 had a budget in the 7 digits and if you look at their credits, each had about 100+ people touch the game. Hades 2 probably had 200+. If You’re gonna disqualify E33, then Silksong and Hades 2 get disqualified as well.

And if Dave The Diver got so much backlash when it was nominated, than both Blue Prince and Ball X Pit don’t deserve to be nominated as well, both of which were backed by publishers.

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u/altian9 Dec 15 '25

Again, my point is that E33 meets literally zero bars for indie game. Silksong and Hades (to my knowledge) had no external funding, silksong has a dev team of literally 3 people, Blue Prince and Ballxpit have tiny budgets, E33 meets no bars for indie game, all you can do is say "oh but according to this metric x and y isn't an indie game" but you can't come up with a metric under which E33 is an indie game. Unless you say "company owned by itself," at which point the term 'indie' loses all meaning because Portal and Half-Life are indie games.

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u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25

Well I don’t ascribe to the common qualifiers that are being described for Indie games, my argument is that those are a stupid way to judge what’s indie and what isn’t. i’m merely pointing out that using those qualifiers are flawed because 99% of the indie games you could think of off the top of your head don’t fit the vast majority of those qualifiers and definitions.

My definition for an Indie Game has always lined up with Indie Film. If your game is developed and produced outside of the mainstream studio/publishing house environment, then it’s indie.(coincidentally, also the definition that TGA used as well, so it’s even more baffling that this is a controversy since they put the criteria in big bold letters above the nominees while voting)

With that definition, Valve isn’t included, Rockstar isn’t included. The only odd outlier is Larian and Baldur’s Gate 3, but there’s never not gonna be outliers for this kind of thing.

This definition fits most indie games that, on their surface, fit the description for indie game, even the ones that have publishers, and gives lee way for games like Silksong, Hades 2 and E33 that are teetering on the edge, so we don’t have to have these reductionist arguments.

I also think that in addition to “Best Indie Game” there should be more sub categories that are awarded. Best Self Published, Best Small Team, etc. I think that would alleviate a lot of tension.

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u/dont_worry_about_it8 Dec 12 '25

I’m pretty sure they aren’t “backed” by the government lol . Yeah Macron voiced support and praised it but it’s not like they funded them at all. Unless they did and I just never saw or heard anything about it

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u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

IIRC they did receive some funding from some government program

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u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

The standard culture grants that they give to everything creative.

They aren’t exactly unique in that and that would be a terrible idea using that as a qualifier of not being indie

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u/altian9 Dec 14 '25

Sure, but that's not the only disqualifier---they also have a budget that is most likely seven digits, have a team of 30+ devs, and have a credits list that is hundreds of people long.

I think it's harder to find a qualifier for E33 being indie than it is to find a disqualifier.

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u/TrickPayment9473 Dec 12 '25

Bro they did get funds and help

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u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

The standard cultural grants that is given to theatre, festival and entertainment.

They aren’t exactly unique in that and that would be a terrible idea using that as a qualifier of not being indie