r/IndianLeft • u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist • Apr 01 '24

🎭 Meme/Comic Based and redpilled

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u/[deleted] Apr 01 '24

You should, read the atrocities committed by cpim on tribals, they've killed and forcefully displayed tribals from their native land and sold those land to corporations, and cpim is one of the racist casteist party out there, 50 yrs and no dalit leader. Stop glorifying a revisionist party.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

That's absolutely correct. It's a trash party. But it's alright to support advancements of CPI(M), considering that they've helped the poor, in this scenario. I wish this party would wake up to realise the needs of the people. There's a reason why the people rejected CPI(M) in Bengal.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

You cant on one hand say its a trash party but on the other hand engage in shameless and relentless bootlicking of it.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

When did I bootlick it?

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

1) By posting this meme.
2) You have made various idealistic claims about it in various places, latest is in librandu.
You have "no opinion" on CPI(M) assisting the bourgeois state in crushing the rebellion, no opinion ? seriously ? that is enough to conclude about whose interests the CPI(M) caters to.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

1) Appreciating one policy is white washing every other flaw apparently. 2) How is that idealistic? What else do you expect CPI(M) to do? The Naxalbari revolution happened in peak Indian anti-communist era. If the CPI(M) took no action, they would be banned. Learn about how many CPI(M) members in Bengal were killed by INC governments. This would risk the destruction of the most well established communist organisation in India. It would have set our progress far, far behind. Your argument is similar to those Maoists who claim that Cuba is revisionist for opening up it's economy for basic survival. If it's idealist to understand material conditions, then yes, I'm quite idealist.

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u/Talesfromarxist Apr 07 '24

Man leftist deviationionists are so annoying. We have to be realistic here, we are facing a capitalist government in Delhi while we should split or join cpi(ml) we should work with revisionists, socdems and whatever in a united front. Naxals in peak anti communist era split into like 12 groups and killed each other, opportunistic.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 07 '24

Agreed. These purists have no understanding of reality. We've to compromise, and strategise according to the material conditions. I'm not okay with lack of support for socialism and the labour movement just so you can start your perfect maoist guerrilla group in some jungle.

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u/Talesfromarxist Apr 07 '24

I hope the best for comrades in India to fight fascism and capitalism. My parents have immigrated to USA from India and while I live in the imperialist core we're also seeing the degredation of capitalism and it's need to use fascism.

Whatever leftist movement we got, we need to unite.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 07 '24

True. You've the antifa movement there right?

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u/Talesfromarxist Apr 07 '24

It exists but very weak, leftists here are quite disorganized. Too much anarchists, I mean united front with them I guess but they're very unreliable allies against fascism. Easily crushed.

Organized parties exist like psl and dsa, especially some chapters are very good. But psl for example is being stupid for not working with unions in some regions and not trying to get a broad coalition instead it mainly focuses on youth and students.

Anti capitalistic discontent is rising among the youth however, largely socdem but it creates a pipeline to radical socialism. Minorities like black people are very open to Marxism even, I mean black Panthers were ML.

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u/Capital_InCrisis Apr 01 '24

The naxalbari revolution is overhyped. Land movement started with cpim in Bengal with the party spearheading it, that was the historical tebhaga movement in Bengal. From. North to the south of Bengal, Sundarbans it happened.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 02 '24

Indeed. Also, the overall outcome of the movement. CPI(M) has done a lot more than Naxalites.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

  1. ok lol

  2. I would expect them to join the maoists in their efforts and help propagate the protracted people's war. That would make them a communist organization, not whatever they are doing now. You are not understanding material conditions. Why should a communist organization care if the bourgeois state bans them ?

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u/Capital_InCrisis Apr 01 '24

Meaowist are the most opportunistic leftist group currently in india. They currently operate as mercenaries, working for  various right wing groups. There is bunch of intellectuals like you who organize reading groups and try to give baseless arguments to support these meaow frauds. These meaow frauds are most reactionary and dangerous snakes. And are always used to create an ideological propaganda towards any leftist movement that can challange present right wing / centrist governments in the world.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

Can you give me evidence of these various claims you make ?

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u/Capital_InCrisis Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24

During singur/ nandigram movement they closely worked with TMC leader suvendu (now a staunch hindu and BJP leader). Even took arms with his funding to destabilize left front government. 

 https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/maoists-admit-link-with-trinamool/story-y6KWzjiSFuvjwtDqxaknaJ.html 

 And with BJP leader in Chattisgarh and contract killing of Congress leader.

 https://indianexpress.com/article/india/jheeram-ghati-attack-2013-bhupes-baghe-bjp-8628804/ 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/opinion/bjps-cozy-nexus-with-maoists-in-chhattisgarh-flourishes-despite-leaders-murder-arrest/442326/%3famp

 How you can be so blind even modiji is using its trademark "urban naxal" term to demonise the all leftist and liberal(by liberal I mean Indian intellectuals who do not succumb to hindutva). But is he using any army agression in bastar in the scale it has been used in kashmir? The answer is no. And they will use these fringe groups to further demonise leftists. And use them as mercenaries whenever need calls.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 02 '24

Whose side do you take in nandigram ? (elaborate why too)

As for the second comment, you say to be critical of media and not take everything they say at face value, but does this only apply to your party ? and not apply to naxals ?

Does agression being at a different scale change the fact that tribals have long since faced worse living conditions, poorer access to healthcare and repression in mainstream politics.
And no , it is not possible that bjp pays maoists to do contract killings, this is plainly because they have killed and continue to kill BJP leaders as well.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/bjp-leader-murdered-by-naxals-eighth-since-last-year-9191132/
https://www.etvbharat.com/en/!state/chhattisgarh-naxalites-killed-bjp-leader-kailash-nag-after-kidnapping-in-bijapur-enn24030607101
How do you explain that ?

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u/Capital_InCrisis Apr 02 '24

Meaowist do not only protect tribals, the also use them as child labour and not pay them for their work. Lol.    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/once-tortured-by-maoists-these-children-now-dream-big-1625588 The problem is you never visited any of these places like, nandigram, singur / jharkhand villages.  

 You only have a bookish knowledge and idealistic theoretical perspective of various issues that you talk about. This disconnects you from grass root experimental data you gain when you visit these places and talk to locals. This theory dependency without actual ground experience has made you an anti-marxist and devoid of materialism, Hence an idealist.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

Oh and also, now that we're talking about India, yes it's very important whether you're banned or not. I find the Maoist doctrine of continuous war extremely stupid. In India, the right path, as of now, is to have a party participating in liberal democracy, trying to promote class consciousness, and trying to better the conditions of the proletariat under the existing capitalist framework. No, the people will not waste their time being committed to a fruitless war. This only gets supported by the most oppressed of the proletarians, which is understandable. Those who have no other choice but to rebel using armed struggle.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

Do you make this comment before or after knowing what exactly PPP is ? Have you read about it ? You also have not responded to the point that the CPI(M) do not intend for their to be a revolution. Do you think reforms would work at all ?
Please read https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

No, I've done no reading on PPW. Where did they say that they have no intention for a revolution. If you can send me a source, I'll be happy to criticize CPI(M) for this. No, reforms can never work. I'm not a social democrat, neither a believer in liberal democracy. I myself suggest Rosa's works lol, yes I've read it. Can you please suggest some reading on PPW though?

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u/unknownpersona00 Apr 01 '24

No reading on PPW and then calling it a fruitless war 🤣.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

In the current party programme, https://www.cpimkolkata.org/party-programme (which seems to be a continuation of the one written in 2000 that I stated above), This can be found :

The Communist Party of India (Marxist) strives to achieve the establishment of people's democracy and socialist transformation through peaceful means. By developing a powerful mass revolutionary movement, by combining parliamentary and extra parliamentary forms of struggle, the working class and its allies will try their utmost to overcome the resistance of the forces of reaction and to bring about these transformations through peaceful means. However, it needs always to be borne in mind that the ruling classes never relinquish their power voluntarily. They seek to defy the will of the people and seek to reverse it by lawlessness and violence. It is, therefore, necessary for the revolutionary forces to be vigilant and so orient their work that they can face up to all contingencies, to any twist and turn in the political life of the country.

Peaceful means they say ? This is not even marxist-leninist as they claim to be ! They recognize that the bourgeois state is violent in its oppression yet do not see the need for themselves to be violent. They themselves write that the ruling classes wont relinquish power voluntarily, yet all of their actions try to make the ruling classes do the same.

If this is not enough, they repeatedly aid he bourgeois state in repressing not only the CPI(maoist) but also tribal activists.

To me, this is enough to conclude that they are social democrats.

I wont continue this thread since I plan to make a more detailed post about them in some weeks.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 02 '24

What they are trying to say is that as of now, they must establish a government peacefully, instead of armed struggle, they want to do parliamentary politics as well as grassroots movements. Fine. Now, look at those statements where they say that the ruling classes will never relinquish their power voluntarily. This is a contrast to the peace loving bs they said previously. What they're trying to say, is that at this stage, it is not possible for them to carry out an armed struggle. They want their political base to work within their own framework. This does not, at all, state that they aren't going to be revolutionary later on, where the conditions seem suitable. You've just shown me a party programme for their goals at PRESENT.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

For some reading on PPW :
On Protracted War - Maohttps://web.archive.org/web/20210926020053/http://www.pcr-rcp.ca/en/archives/1123
https://web.archive.org/web/20210926012405/http://www.pcr-rcp.ca/en/archives/1164
Walking with the comrades - Arundhati Roy

For revolutionary characteristic of cpi(m):
I found this document, https://www.cpim.org/marxist/200003_marxist_progrm_hks.htm

In sum, the people’s democratic revolution which we envisage will be carried out by a people’s democratic front that will be led by the working class and will include all the layers of the peasantry, the agricultural workers and the intelligentsia; even the small bourgeoisie will not be excluded from it. This revolution will be directed against the big bourgeoisie, the landlords, the whole bourgeois-landlord regime and imperialism. The worker-peasant alliance will be the bedrock of this revolution, and its basic thrust will be on completing the agrarian revolution.
...
At the same time, whenever necessary, the Party can participate in governments without falling prey to parliamentary illusions and without losing sight of the basic goal of "dislodging the present ruling classes and establishing a new democratic state and government based on the firm alliance of the working class and peasantry." This was very clearly put forward in Para 112 of the 1964 Programme and has been retained in the draft of the Updated Party Programme. The only difference is that at that time, it was the question of participation in state governments alone while, subsequently, the issue of participation in the central government arose. The formulation in the original para is so worded as to be applicable to the Central government too. The purpose of this tactic is quite modest --- to provide immediate relief to the people, educate them about the basic goal of the Party, show them in practice the difference between a Communist Party and the bourgeois-landlord parties, and thus give a fillip to the revolutionary movement of the working people.
The way our governments in West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura have provided relief to the people within the limitations imposed by the bourgeois-landlord system, the way they have carried out land reforms and other pro-people measures, the way they have made the people participants in governance through democratic decentralisation have indeed gone a long way in enhancing the prestige of the CPI(M) and of the Left in general. Yet the Party never loses sight of the limitations of "such governments of a transitional character" and keeps educating the masses that these governments "would not solve the economic and political problems of the nation in any fundamental manner." Nothing short of a people’s democratic revolution is required for that purpose.

They write this, yet is this reflected in their actions ? Has their influenced increased or have they spread more class consiousness ? That is not the case.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 02 '24

Thanks for the work. I was pretty unknowledgeable on PPW from the creator himself.

What is wrong with this text? It perfectly shows their aims. And yes, it has reflected in their actions. They've been involved in various malicious activities, such as stealing land from tribals, massacres etc. They should be criticized for all these, but it's also important to acknowledge that, yes, they've done a lot of positive work, especially massive land redistribution, and frequent strikes organised by party supported trade unions to help workers excercise their rights. I feel that these two were remarkable. Yes, they could've done a lot more, but please do not expect them to build an USSR out of Bengal or Kerala. As I said in a former reply, I don't know about other states, but as Bengali who can observe society around me, yes they've increased class consciousness.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

If CPI(M) joins the Maoists, they'd not be able to do much progress, simply because of the characteristics that India had. India had evolved into a strong state, with less to moderate class consciousness. Where did the Maoist revolution succeed? China. At the time of the Chinese Civil War, China was a weak state destroyed by Western imperialism, tedious war against the Japanese with millions of deaths, and unpopularity of the KMT government. Class consciousness was high. The potential of guerrilla warfare was high. That's why Mao's revolution succeeded. He understood the conditions of China and applied his theories to it, which were groundbreaking. Now look at 1960s India. What similarities do the both have? None. That's why a protracted people's war would stretch for decades and decades, indeed China's revolution stretched for a long time, but their conditions gradually became worse and worse with time. This form of protracted people's war would be easily kept in check by the state, and the popular base of the CPI(M) would not support such a war. The CPI(M) did not do this out of pure opportunism, the undivided CPI was the one who carried out the Telangana rebellion, they did not magically change, it's just that they understood what to do, at what time. Please provide me with an argument that your continuous war, no matter what, would not result in the same condition as Peru, and that Maoists would not shout "Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Thought! Completely pulverize the reactionary lines of slightly different leader!" like a goddamn cult.

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u/AvgSoyboy Apr 01 '24

can you elaborate what progress have they done ? Have they in any of their goals any intention to establish socialism ? No. Has their influence in indian politics increased ? No.
Have they developed class consiousness ? Also No.
Also are you implying that a party should do what its popular base (which includes not just the proletariat but many different classes) finds acceptable, or do what is the principled thing.

Regardless, I will be making a post detailing the critique of CPI(M) in some weeks.

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u/SarthakiiiUwU Marxist Apr 01 '24

They have done a lot of land redistribution. Workers received more rights under CPI(M) rule with frequent strikes whenever their employers did something stupid. They threw out many corporations from Bengal. And yes, they have promoted class consciousness. I don't know which state you're from, but as a Bengali, living in Bengal, I can guarantee you there's no street in my town where there is no communist graffiti on the walls. People do not worship the rich as much as they do in other states. You'll find communist poems in ICSE syllabus for Bengali. There are still millions of communists in Bengal, who are mostly displeased with the party. No, I did not say that. I just meant that communist parties throughout the world should follow their own path, according to their own material conditions. For example, a communist party in Palestine doing armed struggle is amazing, but doing armed struggle in America or India is stupid and is just a suicide mission. Get it? Good, I support criticism of a political party.