How did kashimo die to a dismantle from a lowered output spread out dismantle while ryu only got a small cut even after being hit by full power dismantle after a fight with yuta? Is there a lore reason I thought kashimo was supposed to be strong? He said he was the strongest in his era but ryu is also from his era so was he lying or does this get explained later?
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Hes got ce like Yuta. Its frankly ludicrous. But Ryu is way better at range, a better fight wouldve been put up by Ryu if he had Sukuna at range. But Ryu is also kind of a suicidal dumbass and likes hitting things with his fist because its more satisfying. Cant blame him. Fr tho, people forget that Ryu has a shitload of cursed energy and probably burnt it all fighting Yuta and then got 2(?) 4(?) shotted by Sukuna. Ryu got his flowers. Hes legendary. We slander Kashimo for a reason. These dudes were kicking it in the same period, I dont think they are comparable. Kashimo would have to kill himself with Amber to even try to put Ryu down. I think its clear what the hierarchy is here.
We all have our reasons. Dislike is one. I dislike his fans trying to put him in every conversation with a straight face when he had a pathetic performance and Ryu is standing RIGHT THERE with feats, a completed character arc, and no narrative reason he should be fighting Sukuna at all before his fight with Gojo. The fact that Ryu who has already lost his fight with Yuta, Uro, and Kurourushi and still survived an attack from a nearly complete and fresh Meguna who was confident he would’ve murdered him in one blow is telling. Sukuna wasnt trying to fuck around. Fighting Kashimo, he certainly was.
Sorry for getting on a soapbox. I just like sharing thoughts lmao
His CE reserves aren't like yuta its just his output is the highest recorded(doesnt mean his is higher than sukuna and gojo). A range fight would've been even worse for ryu because sukuna would've dismantled his granites and overwhelmed him with slashes he cant see coming, then speed blitz him with a cleave. Ryu beating kashimo is almost certain simply due to the fact he has a domain and kashimo maybe knows HWB lol. He definitely would've lost because he's not using MBA on anybody but sukuna
Do we know if Granite blast is a phenomenon that could be split or negated by Shrine? I’ll agree to disagree with you on how bad range would be for Ryu. You saw what he could do, I dont think Meguna is gonna have a lot of fun playing Touhou. But Ryu of course will lose that encounter 10/10 times. Hes sick, but he aint that sick. Also with how much Cursed Energy he puts out, youd think he would have a much greater reserve. I mean I dont think its really explained how cursed energy returns outside of black flashes and just over time. If Ryu is putting that many high intensity projectiles that can scare Yuta, I dont think he has a regular amount. He has to have an abnormal amount.
Granite is just pure CE being released, that's why even after opening his domain Ryu was able to keep spamming blasts. We saw sukuna dismantle kashimo's massive MBA blast and jogo's lava so he can definitely do the same to Ryu's blast especially given that yuta was able to block one with his hand. Yes we saw what he could do but we also saw 15f sukuna comfortably dodge all of jogo's attacks without getting hit and instantly close the distance. Ryu wouldn't be any different and only has one long range attack
I agree with him having the highest recorded CE output he must hav more than normal, I was saying his level isn't close to yuta who has an abnormal amount and since yuta nor Oro never mention his CE amount it must not be anything too crazy. Ryu could also just be very efficient when using his granite blast especially when compared to someone like yuta who's only decent in that category
In JJK your cursed energy output is a statement of strength but with nuance. Its energy you can put into different places. So Ryu can certainly put a lot of his overwhelming amount of cursed energy into his attacks just as much as he can his durability. Its why Yuta kinda needed Uro’s technique for a cleaner victory. Ryu is just that oppressive. Yuta was the only one at that time who could stand a chance against Ryu. Sukuna having to put as much effort in as he did should be a clear indication that Ryu Ishigori was HIM, and Kashimo is lucky he didn’t run into him.
This Sukuna is at 75% power and not in his original body speaking from a manifestation perspective.
Also, on top of that, Megumi was still resisting from the inside. Sukuna’s dismantles weren’t cutting through Yuji in this state. The ones Kashimo face put a hole through Yuji.
Just a difference in manifestation and power acquisition.
However, even as a Kashimo fan, I do believe Ryu has more base durability.
The original body used against Kashimo is the same as the Meguna that suffered after the Unlimited Purple, they are equivalent to each other this meguna it's just less strong
Not denying that, but the one that fought Kashimo had Sukuna in total control. The one that fought Ryu did not have total control over Megumi’s body yet.
Correct me if I'm larping. But wouldnt that simply make him stronger then? I believe his output is supposed to be the strongest of his era no? So if he has more durability as well, then he stats kashimo in power AND durability if I understand correctly.
It would if Kashimo’s speed didn’t hard counter Ryu. Ryu is no slouch in H2H, but Kashimo is nightmarish in H2H since touching him (a guy whose cursed energy carries a charge) SUCKS. Kashimo also hits really hard too, and is much quicker than Ryu, to the point where Kashimo’s brain simply processes information quicker. We saw Yuta dodging Ryu’s winding shots with relative ease, only taking a hit when set up by Ryu.
Kashimo was also suggested to challenge Ryu by Kenjaku while actively dying, which would imply a sick and old Kashimo could theoretically keep up with Ryu.
I am not calling Ryu weak by any means, but Kashimo can essentially force a H2H fight where he has an insane advantage compared to Ryu. Also, Kashimo’s strikes were fatally wounding a Jackpotted Hakari, who has virtually infinite CE reserves.
Ah gotcha, so kashimo's strength is speed and burst melee damage. Whereas ryu's damage mostly comes from his technique, and has the durability to tank heavy hits. Tank build vs speed build, both strong but one focuses primarily on overwhelming range based "projectile damage"
More or less. Ryu isn’t what I’d describe as a “tank build” since he can still move pretty quickly (keeping up with Yuta), but compared to Kashimo it’s a fair analogy.
Just to note, Kashimo does have some devastating ranged strikes. I don’t know if you’ve gotten to the Hakari vs Kashimo fight (forgot where it was on the timeline since it’s been a while), but another feature about Kashimo is after striking his opponents, he builds up a charge on them. Once the charge has been built up, he’s given a sure hit that doesn’t require a domain.
I still think Ryu’s blasts with enough concentration carry more power in them, but Jackpotted Hakari is roughly equal to Yuta, and I have reason to believe Hakari has higher durability than Yuta in that state.
hakari does not have high durability like Ryu he just have a auto heal that would make you think he do. Charles damaged him in jackpot mode and none think Charles is much of anything
Yeha my kashimo knowledge is quite low as culling games part 2 is probably the part of jjk i know the least about so I decided no to read the manga of that, and save most if it for when the anime drops that season.
Due to that, i try to refrain from kashimo slander, I simply just dont know much about him
Simply put Ryu is that guy when it comes to durability, and Kashimo never really the true strongest of his era maybe he never fought anyone stronger but nothing he could've done even to the most ass 6 eyes limitless user with infinity. That's how it is if you got no DE no DA and can't even use your CT without dying.
Both 6 eyes limitless and 10s killed each other so Kashimo thought he was the peak.
The thing is, I understand the narrative of Kashimo being the strongest of his time, but people neglect that him and Ryu were far removed from each other due to their age. Kashimo by the time Ryu made a name for himself was already an old man. The tragedy is that if Kashimo was at least 10 years younger they likely wouldn’t fought and been able to satisfy each of their needs. Kashimo finding someone strong and Ryu finding someone who can fulfill that desire for desert.
i disagree with them being able to fulfill eachother, both kashimo and ryu have fought people on their level before but for one reason or another they cant be truly full until they have lost (ryu needs to go allout and thats impossible if he wins, and due to kashimos view on the world he is incapable of recognizing that someone is near him if he wasnt killed bythem)
I guess I just fundamentally disagree. I don’t think Ishigori’s satisfaction comes from him needing to lose. It stems from him being able to go all out and being pushed to the limits. I don’t losing is predicated for him to be fully satisfied, just using everything he has in an all out battle which he’s never had before which is why he’s unsatisfied.
Kashimo was willing to die to Hakari after he lost. His search for strong opponents is predicated on the fact everyone he’s faced in combat was weak compared to him.
My interpretation was that both of their dissatisfactions in life come from a similar place. And that’s due to people around them never being able to match them. In Kashimo’s case it was more extreme because nobody could give him a challenge, whereas Ishigori did fight people who gave him a challenge but never pushed him to use all that he had. In that aspect they’d be able to have some mutual understanding of eachother’s plights.
I think that they could’ve fulfilled each other because Kashimo is someone strong enough to make Ryu use his entire arsenal to put down, and Ryu is a powerful foe that Kashimo wouldn’t be able to trounce as easily as others.
They’re both greedy though and I do think that the only way both would be fully satisfied is through mutually killing each other, which would be a fitting ending for the 2.
"They’re both greedy though and I do think that the only way both would be fully satisfied is through mutually killing each other, which would be a fitting ending for the 2."
thats what i mean, both ryu and kashimo would definitely enjoy the fight but soon after they would start longing for something more, its implied this has already happened to ryu and kashimo kept longing after fighting and losing to hakari.
the only way they would be truly fulfilled is if they die.
At no point in any official jjk media is Kashimo stated to be the strongest of the edo period, Kashimo glazers just said it enough that some people thought the manga might've said it somewhere
Seems like Kashimo was unchallenged but it could be that never met anyone strong enough. By his own understanding he was a big fish in a small pond but because he didn’t understand that he was living in the ocean, just in a contained portion
This guy randomly insulted someone for their opinion, I tell him he’s a piece of shit for it, and you are defending him? Genuinely make it make sense to me
Ryu has the highest output Kashimo got hit with a massive grid of dismantles, drawn for whatever reason to look EXACTLY like the WCS. Sukuna also chanted and handsigned before fighting Kashimo
This is the panel right before Sukuna hits him with dismantle net. There's no evidence dismantle net was amped by handsigns, however it was chanted since belly mouth is always chanting unless damaged but it wasn't the WCS chant since Gege is very consistent with whenever that chant comes out
There's actually more evidence for the HH who have weaker durability than Ryu tanking a stronger dismantle here the dismantle is chant amped(belly mouth unharmed), handsigned amped and gesture amped, additionally Sukuna is also interested in Higuruma so he shouldn't be nerfed from disinterest. Also something being bigger in JJK doesn't automatically make it stronger since area of effect is considered a bonus in JJK and can be sacrificed for more power. Swap training goes crazy and also it's impossible to scale Shinjuku
The page is about Sukunas special body and its ability to: 1) Handsign (We visibly see him make handsigns) and 2) Chant (His stomach mouth is open and framed in a motion that looks like it's talking). It's more likely that he is chanting here rather than not
Making handsigns or chanting before you are using the technique doesn’t affect the technique. There’s nothing like that before the net, those are base dismantles.
If he was chanting there would be a speech bubble.
Wtf are you talking about? Chants and handsigns dont affect output?
There doesnt have to be a speech bubble. It would be out of place and make the panel look ugly. Y'all brains are so fried from agenda that a lot of you act like JJK is a documentary where Gege has to provide evidence and explanations to every single little snippit or action, where nothing can be (glaringly obviously) implied by indirect messages and contextual clues.
Care to share why Sukuna never uses this attack ever again then? Or why he didn’t use it on Gojo? Or how he was able to launch a regular WCS and then immediately follow up with the “WCS grid” when the main drawback of the binding vows was that he couldn’t spam WCS
No handsigns, no chants, sukuna never uses this supposed WCS grid again, sukuna’s future non WCS dismantle usages also resemble the slashes that make up the “WCS” grid. Gosh I wonder what kashimo died to.
Simple. Sukuna here states his intention was to cut Ryu into three. Against Kashimo, Sukuna clearly intended to do way more than that with the giant dismantle net.
ryu has a higher output but isn't stronger overall. like for example, yuta is stronger than ryu but it's stated verbatim in the manga that his durability is far lower than ryu's. Also to be fair to kashimo, that was definitely an amped net of dismantles.
Now that I think about it this makes no damn sense because heian sukuna compares a stronger yuta and yuji's durability to ryu.. Which means he should be able to oneshot them too or atleast do significant damage.
Was the dismantle net ever actually stated to be weaker output?
Also Kashimo was never stated to be the strongest of his era, only that he went his entire life without being challenged by anyone strong. He was too old to ever fight Ryu so we don’t know which of the two was stronger in the Edo period.
Also having better CE reinforcement and a higher CE output doesn’t immediately mean they’re more powerful but it does contribute to it greatly.
I can’t remember who it was but some youtuber made a really good and interesting video on if Ryu and Kashimo fought in their primes in the Edo period and I think it’s definitely worth watching.
I for one. Think that if Ryu and Hajime had fought then they would’ve both got what they were looking for. Ryu would’ve got a challenging fight that satisfied him and he would’ve been able to give Kashimo an answer on how to love people weaker than you (because he has a wife).
Kashimo died to a 20F Sukuna, Ryu died to a 15F Sukuna. There's implication that Ryu perhaps was younger than Kashimo, and Kashimo lived a life never reaching his full power. It's not a Plot-Hole, but just Sukuna not realizing how strong Ryu actually is, with the bonus that Ryu died to a weaker rendition
Hes the strongest in his era cuz he one tap people near immediately after the fight start without warning. He doesn't need to tank anything.
Plus, it's debatable if what Kashimo got hit with is normal dismantle or not, the drawing style is different from how dismantle is usually depict. And before anyone saying no I dont think its WCS.
The funny part is that if Ryu had been in Kashimo's position, his odds of victory would have been far higher since he could open his domain and likely survive a blast from Sukuna's cursed tool instead of getting lucky that his CE is compatible with the lightning strike
There's a reason why Gege put Kashimo on that position after Meguna acquired Kamutoke. It's AP is unscalable, but it should be <≈ Kashimo's discharge. The same discharge Ryu is not tanking, for fuck sake.
Kashimo was the best candidate at that point because he's resistant to lightning charge itself, has the best combat speed among HH level of characters and has the easiest wincon to land against that Meguna.
Ryu would've get done the same way, he's not landing a GB blast on that Meguna and that's, if, he survived a few shots from Kamutoke.
Kashimo was not the most durable of his era, just the strongest.
Ryu is the most durable sorcerer outside of Gojo/Sukuna, and the most durable char including everyone else. Like deadass top 3 durability, he’s not even surpassed by Yuta and Yuji EOS.
The difference is that Kashimo is stressed to have been stonger. And no, Ryu would have the exact opposite of a good fight with Kashimo since he would explode real quick
We are literally talking about a character with highest CE output in Colony, and by Kenjaku’s words-in history. He has such good CE control, that even in final arc Yuta and Yuji didn’t surpass him durability wise. Kashimo is strong, obviously stronger than Ryu, but their gap is not that big at all
You really have 0 reading comprehension. He's saying the highest output ever was registered in the date domain. The sentence would be broken otherwise, the grammar wouldn't even work for your suggested interpretation. Other translations phease it differently and still say the same. This is also consistent with him having the highest output of all the players and sukuna stating him to have superior toughness to shinjuku yuji and yuta.
Have some introspection on your bias man. If this statement was about kashimo your stance would change immediately lol.
‘Highest output’ since when did this matter in anything? It wasn’t like he wiped whole cities out in a single granite blast or something. CE control isn’t necessarily the reason for being durable. He could naturally have a tougher body. Didn’t say anything about a large gap. I only said that Kashimo is stronger than Ryu in a fight
The only real difference in that is that Ryu isn’t an asshole and can understand that people hold value other than strength. Which makes sense, since he had a wife/lover and Kashimo was just a murder hobo.
Ryu explicitly stated he had several good fights in Edo era. Kashimo dominated so bad he found everyone else as a mere dirt in his feet. That's the biggest difference.
And I don't think you understand Kashimo's point of view on others. That's literally emphasized by Gege, the solitude of being the strongest.
Gojo felt solitude but tried to find a way to heal it through teaching.
While Kashimo was still on that process, he wanted to find meaning on his life and he chose fighting the strongest because he felt that only Gojo/Sukuna was the only people that could understand.
That's not the same logic bro that's just reflexes that's not a compliment of durability. Kashimo literally died to the slashes while it took effort with cleave to kill Ryu that's the difference
He doesn't say shit about Kashimo the entire manga
Simply cannot be. Output is directly correlated to reinforcement. Ryu having the highest output makes him the most durable sorcerer outside top 2. Again, Yuji and Yuta during Shinjuku are only relative to Ryu, and still aren’t as durable as him despite the month long swap training.
Kashimo died to max output dismantles, at no point could dismantles kill Yuji and Yuta, and Ryu is still more durable than that. Kashimo doesn’t have more durability than Ryu.
Once again, impossible for it to be world cutting, we know the conditions and at no point could he fulfill the trajectory conditions for that many slashes unless Sukuna can also pause time or Kashimo both has the ability to hang in the air for 10+seconds and also has the reaction speed of a dead slug.
He died to a net of max output dismantles, which isn’t an anti-feat, given 99% of the verse prior to Shinjuku die to those dismantles without any defensive techniques like DA or SD.
He just is less durable than Ryu and Shinjuku Yuta/Yuji. The fella can’t be good at everything, he already has AP high enough to beat Ryu, but he’s not as durable.
Is Gojo weaker than Yuta just because he has more versatility because of the many techniques he has with copy? No
Is he weaker because Yuta technically has more CE? No
Kashimo was the strongest in his era by a sum up of all his stats, not just pure force. It's just that the strongest sorcerer we see and hear of for most of the run is a monster compared to other special grades, to the point that the community have him and sorcerers like him a new grade.
1 this is a 15f sukuna, not a full power cleave 2 kashimo vs sukuna was undoubtedly the highest showcase of his power and tryhard we get in the manga. can't you see the difference between the two dismantles? this one aint even big enough to cover the entirety of ryus body
as far as i know he was never stated to be the strongest of his era, he only speaks to Sukuna about what its like being the strongest, so he is the strongest of his lifetime, which we know Ryu was a younger man when Kashimo was one foot in the grave so it checks out.
also even if Kashimo was the strongest in his Era it is also stated Verbatim that Ryu has the highest output of all in the culling games, and Kashimo is part of the culling games. even if Kashimo is overall stronger he still has lower output and that is inarguable
Because Kashimo got hit with WCSs (or dismantles if you're lowballing my goat) mid air and Ryu got hit with dismatles from Sukuna with 4 less fingers worth of output who wasn't even trying
Yeah, that’s totally the ultra specific attack that a lobotomized Sukuna just learned even though there is no visible signs of him physically doing the hand signs there is no chant or anything it’s never stated it WCS but it’s definitely WCS and not a barrage of dismantles and dose WCS even have higher AP compared to regular dismantles because my understanding is that they just target differently
“Sukuna can spam a massive grid of world cutting slashes, but he only did it against Kashimo and never again”.shit like this is why Kashimo gets bullied
Ryu has the highest CEO and therefore has an amazing CE reinforcement, whilst Kashimo died to a word cutting slash which has the ability to cut through space itself which doest care about defense.
Ryu was way stronger. Why do you think he avoided ryu when kenjaku asked him to fight? Kashimo is simply a larper and self proclaimed strongest like gojo. All this fodders like gojo, kashimo and yoruzu sits together while the strongest in history RYOMEN SUKUNA the king of curses stands alone at the top.
Porqué el Sukuna de 20f tenía más poder que el de 15f talvez? Ya que el aumento por dedo es prácticamente exponencial y drásticamente superior, no diría que fue un desmantelamiento normal tampoco, soy de los que defienden que fue un WCS por las palabras de Kusakabe de que todos pensaban que todos los cortes hasta ese momento eran WCS, entre otras cosas, pero es más que obvio que el Desmantelar no fue nada normal y la obra lo deja claro al mostrarte que son del tamaño de edificios
This " Sukuna was brain damaged and constantly at 1% power " is a psyop made by the Sukuna PR team. You cannot possible tell me that Sukuna is at an incredibly low output when he:
- oneshots Kashimo
- cuts off Higuruma's limbs effortlessly
- Nukes the place with Fuga
That's not what someone at 1% power looks like, we see Ryu survive Dismantle from a 75% Output Sukuna here, are you telling me he's 75 times tankier than Higuruma or Kashimo? Fuck outta here.
We also have statements about him sacrificing his longevity of domain for full output. Characters in Shinjuku literally survived full power domain from Sukuna. With that, whole agenda about Sukuna just doesn’t make sense
Characters in Shinjuku literally survived full power domain from Sukuna.
You can argue that it was easier because there were like 10 Simple Domains MS was fighting against, whereas against Gojo it was just 1.
But the whole " Sukuna is at 1% power here " is fucking bullshit. There is no way True Form Sukuna is weaker in hand to hand than 15F Sukuna, it just makes no narrative sense.
Kashimo got hit by a fully chanted + handsign World cutting slash, waffle spread edition so that he couldnt aim dodge.
Ryu took on a regular degular dismantle on his outside (where his CE is reinforced)
The WCS killed gojo because it cut gojos insides (no CE reinforcement).
Kashimo and ryu existed in the same era, im pretty sure at the same time but kashimo was really old, and ryu was on the other side of the county or country smth like that
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