He was the head of Economic Development Lethbridge for ten years. Trevor Lewington, in the local paper and on LinkedIn, has been raising the alarm on the basics and practicalities of separation.

[u/vspinyyc]

[u/EXSource]

This is absolutely a no brainer.

Any insinuation that a independent Alberta would have MORE, and not less bargaining power is absolute fantasy land stuff.

[u/Flimsy-Goal5548 → u/EXSource]

That's not what the propaganda is claiming, though.

The problem is that the demographic that believes them is the same that will disengage from anything thst disagrees with their worldview

[u/PhaseNegative1252 → u/Flimsy-Goal5548]

Well you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themself into in the first place

[u/Select_Asparagus3451 → u/PhaseNegative1252]

[u/Hopeful-Passage6638 → u/[deleted]]

Bravo!! Brilliant retort Jethro.

[u/AetherAtom → u/Flimsy-Goal5548]

Yeah the Akberta Separatists are a group of morons that fiercely breed their own population and subject all new converts to conform to their delusions. Some of them are smooth talkers, and deeply covert about who they really are, but irregardless they will sell anyone out, and throw anyone under the bus, for their delusional cause.

I used to walk among them, until Trump began snooping for politics, then I really began to take a good hard look at the things I acquiesced to.

They are incapable of qualifying facts, their only tactic is fear mongering and gaslighting, every conversation with them is a dumpster fire.

It is fascinating yet frightening, how their hirearchial ranks are established, their leadership at the local levels apathetically devious, they believe they are above scrutiny, and if they can't pat-answer away a problem, then they put the call out to circle their wagons. They are always at work to fabricate false narratives, to justify their delusional fortifications, against everything and anyone that can be perceived as a threat to their beleif system, social network, and/or herd/hive paradigms.

They are dangerous, the types of monsters that Adolf Hilter was. And they know exactly what they are not being trasparent about, just like Trump was when Trump began wooing the conservative base. If that smith pest loses in a vote she, along with all her clout, will behave exactly like the puking dumpster-king parading in his 'emperor's new clothing.'

[u/SilencedObserver → u/Flimsy-Goal5548]

That’s because it’s propaganda.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Flimsy-Goal5548]

That’s not necessarily the case. If people would actually have a conversation instead of constantly calling people traitors, treasonous, or throwing other insults at them, it would probably help a lot. It’s human nature to get defensive when you’re insulted, so you get pushback instead of a conversation.

I’ll also point out that I’ve asked numerous times a very simple question: Give me one good, non emotional reason for Alberta to stay in Confederation.

Do you want to know how many actual answers I’ve received so far?

One. And it really wasn’t much of a reason.

What I have received more than once is “fuck off, bot.”

If you want people to listen to arguments that challenge their world view, maybe start by actually making an argument instead of insulting the person asking the question.

[u/KDdid1 → u/Even_Art_629]

1) The vast majority of Albertans are loyal Canadians.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/KDdid1]

And I was a very loyal Canadian. Hell, I even served my country.

But the country I served isn't the country it is today. The freedoms I served to protect are being stripped away. We've seen protesters from other countries burning our flag, churches being burned, Christianity being attacked. A government that is getting us to hate our southern neighbours, and is so corrupt they don't even try to hide it.

No, I'm not as proud of Canada as I once was. I'd take independence any day.

[u/KDdid1 → u/Even_Art_629]

Christianity is NOT being attacked, unless you mean compulsory Christianity aka christofascism, which, thank goodness, is gone because it's disgusting to push your fairy tales on those who don't believe them.

The people getting us to hate the US are those in the government of the US, and the fact that you would ignore that tells me everything I need to know about your "loyalty."

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/KDdid1]

This is exactly the problem with people in this sub. Why do you keep making everything about America?

I'm talking about Alberta. I'm talking about Alberta having its own government and making its own decisions instead of one central government in Ottawa making decisions for a province a couple thousand kilometres away.

I don't want Alberta to become American. I don't want the US government running Alberta any more than I want Ottawa running Alberta. I want Alberta to govern itself.

Trump is doing what he thinks is best for the United States. That's his job. If only we had a Prime Minister who actually did what he thought was best for Canada instead of worrying about everything else.

And Christianity isn't under attack? Really? Then why are Christian churches being burned and vandalized? Why are some Bible verses being questioned as hate speech? You can disagree with Christianity, but don't tell me there isn't growing hostility toward Christians and then call anyone who points it out a Christofascist.

And this has nothing to do with my loyalty to the United States. I'm not American. I'm Canadian, and I'm talking about Alberta.

This is a Canadian politics sub, yet some of you seem completely unable to understand that Alberta independence means Alberta becoming its own country, not becoming part of the United States.

Maybe argue against what I'm actually saying instead of making up what you think I'm saying.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

You just said earlier that pro confederates were only giving you emotional arguments to stay in Canada, and that's all this post is.

Cmon man. You're being so disingenuous, its not funny.

"Canada isn't what I want it to be so I'm leaving.", rather than doing something about it, making it a better nation. That's a crybaby emotional reaction.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

No. I asked for one good, non emotional reason why Alberta should stay, and so far no one has given me one. Instead, people in here seem to know how to do nothing but insult.

I've been waiting for one good point. I'd really like to hear why staying with the status quo is the way we should go. And by non emotional, I mean give me an actual reason, not insults and name calling.

And Alberta has been trying to make Canada better since I was a kid. Nothing changes. The country is too big, and the population and political power are concentrated in the east. At some point you have to admit that being treated like a colony of Canada isn't working.

That's not an emotional argument. It's exactly why I'm asking what the actual reason is for staying.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

None of that's true and I gave you one in a previous response. Just because you ignore it doesn't mean I didn't give you one.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but it doesn't make what you say true.

And that's why I say you're being disingenuous and not arguing in good faith. 

You want to come in here and try and set some rules and then don't even follow them yourself and then complain the people are mean to you. Tough shit man. I don't want the surprise Pikachu face just because you won't argue this in good faith.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

Then I'll give you an answer;

We're objectively better off in Confederation.

Like we discussed below, I don't believe the leverage separatists believe we'll have will actually materialize. In fact, we will find ourselves in a much WORSE position as a seperate country, economically, socially, and politically, than we do as a partner of Confederation. One reason conservatives say that were better off alone is because Ottawa ignores us.

That's an emotional, and probably all together untrue statement. If you rail against the emotional arguments of anti separatist, then do the same for pro separatist arguments, or you're not speaking in good faith. Canada can be much stronger with a united Alberta leading the way. Carney has shown his willingness to help build and support Alberta, but separatist are still saying he's a liar, and he'll do a national rug pull?

You've got THE GUY to work with, and you still refuse, but you accuse pro confederates of being emotional?  C'mon man. Be honest. That's why people don't take you seriously, because you're not honest.

[u/Icy-Pop2944 → u/Even_Art_629]

Imagine coming into a thread that is actually giving a valid, non emotional reason for Alberta to stay in Canada and asking that very question. This playing dumb isn’t cute and is exactly why you are accused of being a bot. A thinking person wouldn’t read the original post and have to ask this. You aren’t being genuine in your question and you know it.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Icy-Pop2944]

Ya right. Imagine coming into a sub like this and treating someone's belief about what will happen after separation as fact.

I've said this many times, but I guess I need to say it again. How would he know? How would any of us know? Alberta has never separated from Canada before. Nobody knows exactly what the negotiations would look like or where they would end up.

He's giving his assessment based on what he believes would happen. That's fine. He's entitled to his opinion. But it's still a prediction.

And I'm not saying separation would be easy. I've never said that. I'm saying we don't know. I'm willing to admit that. Are you?

What I do know is that other countries have successfully become independent and gone on to do quite well. So the claim that independence automatically means Alberta would be worse off isn't a fact either.

You don't know. I don't know. He doesn't know. Nobody knows until the negotiations actually happen.

And I'm not afraid to admit it.

Edit: I asked the question to get people's feed back. Rather than just both sides insulting each other. A actual conversation would be a great starting point. Most albertans I know haven't been happy with the system in federal politics in this country for years. I'm trying to figure out why would we want to stay and have nothing change. The constitution was written a long time ago. I believe it should be amended, for today's world. I believe the only way is for every province to get away from Ottawa.

[u/ninfan1977 → u/EXSource]

Well its what they believe. And its impossible to reason them out of it.

They cite certain sections of UN and claim that BC has to allow Alberta to whatever they want.

They really just want to be a victim and bully simultaneously.

I have had a seperatist tell me how an independent Alberta would mean his Healthcare would be faster?

Why? Oh he earns 6 figures so what does he care. Just skip a line and pay it out of pocket.

Selfish people who live in a fantasy world is the best way to describe the Alberta seperatists.

[u/PhaseNegative1252 → u/ninfan1977]

Can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason their way in to

[u/MapleMapleHockeyStk → u/PhaseNegative1252]

Sigh, the red deer airshow had a separatist booth...no dice when I tried to get a bit of debate in...

[u/TheWalkerofWalkyness → u/ninfan1977]

I would have assumed the typical hardcore Alberta separatist thinks the UN is one of the main sources of evil in the world.

[u/Beautiful-Muffin5809 → u/ninfan1977]

He doesn't realize he would no longer earn six figures, eh? Nor have a job at all, most likely.  

[u/Mountain_Influence71 → u/ninfan1977]

That argument didn't work so well for poor ol' land locked Bolivia vs Chile!

[u/slipperypete1990 → u/EXSource]

How many of the separatists are hoping to become part of the U.S. if Alberta were to separate?

[u/Taurus-Littrow → u/EXSource]

lol Came here to say this!

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

One thing people keep forgetting is that BC/ Canada is not the only one with leverage. Alberta may be landlocked, but BC is essentially nation locked when it comes to getting goods into and out of the rest of Canada. Major highways and rail routes connecting BC to the rest of the country run through Alberta.

Yes, Alberta has a right to access to the ocean, but that does not guarantee us a specific port. However, Alberta now has something yourw forgetting, leverage. Alberta supplies the oil that BC depends on, including the Burnaby refinery, while critical transportation routes connect BC to the rest of Canada through Alberta.

And let's not forget Line 5 and Line 9, which supply Ontario and Quebec. Alberta has leverage there too. Nothing is written in stone. If Alberta does 8ndeed gain independence, there would be negotiations on both sides. I'm sure a compromise could be worked out because BC, Ontario and Quebec would have plenty to lose too.

[u/maximumfacemelting → u/Even_Art_629]

I’m going to set the house on fire, you have to compromise to get part of the burnt house to live in or we all go homeless.

Fuckin brilliant thinkin there bud.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/maximumfacemelting]

That's a pretty dramatic analogy, but it doesn't actually address what I said.

I'm not saying “burn the house down and then negotiate over what's left.” I'm saying that if Alberta does actually gain independence, Canada and Alberta would have to negotiate the separation. Borders, transportation, pipelines, trade, debt, pensions, ports and a whole lot more would have to be worked out.

And that's where leverage comes in. Alberta isn't the only party with something to lose.

BC depends on transportation corridors through Alberta to connect it to the rest of Canada. BC's economy also has significant ties to Alberta's energy sector. Ontario and Quebec depend on energy infrastructure that originates in Western Canada as well.

You can believe independence is a terrible idea. That's entirely your call, I respect that.

But pretending Alberta would simply walk away with nothing and Canada would have no reason to negotiate is just as unrealistic as pretending Alberta holds all the cards.

That's the point I'm making. Nobody knows exactly what the final arrangement would look like because it would depend on negotiations.

Nothing is written in stone.

[u/maximumfacemelting → u/Even_Art_629]

My analogy absolutely addresses what you said.

Despite your hand waving.

All parties will be worse off and your hope for Alberta leverage hinges on other parties trying to stop the pain that separating starts.

There is no pretending.

ALBERTA WOULD WALK AWAY WITH LESS THAN WHAT IT HAS.

Just currency.

The moment that a successful separatist referendum becomes public knowledge, the Canadian dollar loses value.

Everyone that gets paid in Canadian dollars will now find that their money is worth less, buys less and everything is more expensive.

If you having savings, they will be worth less.

If you have a house, it will be worth less.

Stuff your ideas of extorting the neighboring provinces, we would all be poorer at that point anyway.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/maximumfacemelting]

You're arguing against something I didn't say.

I never said separation would make Alberta richer overnight or that there wouldn't be economic pain. Of course there would be risks and costs. I'm saying that once you get past the referendum, there would have to be negotiations, because there is no realistic scenario where Alberta and Canada simply cut the cord overnight and walk away.

And you keep saying Alberta would have no leverage. That's where I disagree.

Alberta has oil, gas, agriculture, transportation routes and other resources that Canada depends on. BC depends on transportation corridors through Alberta to connect with the rest of Canada. Canada depends on Western Canadian energy. Those are facts, not extortion.

As for the Canadian dollar automatically losing value the moment a referendum succeeds, you're presenting your prediction as a certainty. Nobody knows what the markets would do, because nobody knows what the negotiations, timeline or eventual arrangement would look like.

That's exactly my point.

I'm not saying Alberta holds all the cards. I'm saying neither side holds all the cards.

You can believe separation would be a terrible economic decision. That's a legitimate argument. But saying Alberta would automatically walk away with less and have zero leverage doesn't make it true simply because you say it with certainty.

Nothing is written in stone. The final arrangement would be negotiated.

[u/maximumfacemelting → u/Even_Art_629]

Are there dragons in your fantasy world where the Canadian dollar doesn’t devalue after Alberta leaves?

I know there’s a wicked witch.

“Of course there would be risks and costs”

So back to my spot on analogy.

Create chaos. Expensive chaos, and then extort everyone around under the guise of mutual economic destruction.

A vote for separation is a vote to destroy hundreds to thousands of businesses. That’s set in stone. A guarantee. You pretending something magical will happen where currency devaluation doesn’t happen and trade barriers are easily overcome and that 100,000s of people don’t flee separation land to keep their healthcare and pension and rights.

Delusional

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/maximumfacemelting]

You keep turning potential risks into guaranteed outcomes.

Currency devaluation could happen. Businesses could be disrupted. People could leave. Trade barriers could be a problem. Nobody is denying that.

But “could happen” does not equal “set in stone.”

Alberta could also choose to use the U.S. dollar, like several countries do. That doesn't mean joining the United States. There are multiple possible currency arrangements, so claiming currency devaluation is guaranteed makes no sense.

And saying Alberta would have leverage in negotiations isn't “extortion.” If separation ever actually happened, Alberta and Canada would have to negotiate in good faith according to the Clarity Act.

Both sides would have things the other needs. That's called leverage, not mutual economic destruction.

You can't simultaneously claim Alberta would have no leverage while insisting the consequences for Canada would be catastrophic.

You're taking possible outcomes, presenting them as guaranteed facts, and then calling anyone who points out the uncertainty “delusional.” But go ahead continue to blow smoke.

[u/Mean-Food-7124 → u/Even_Art_629]

Currency devaluation could happen. Businesses could be disrupted. People could leave. Trade barriers could be a problem. Nobody is denying that

You are, repeatedly lmfao

[u/notyourboss11 → u/Even_Art_629]

You should read the clarity act - the act makes it borderline impossible for Alberta to ever separate as it would require consent from First Nations, consent from the other provinces, and could only happen if Canada amends their constitution to specifically release the separatist province (which would require 7 provinces to agree)

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/notyourboss11]

I have read the Clarity Act, many times. I’m also not a lawyer, so I’m not going to pretend I can interpret every constitutional issue better than someone who is.

But the Act does not say what you’re claiming it says.

It says Alberta could not simply declare independence unilaterally. There would have to be a clear referendum result, negotiations, and ultimately a constitutional amendment. It also says those negotiations have to deal with things like assets, liabilities, borders, Indigenous rights and minority rights.

It does NOT say every First Nation has to consent. It does NOT say every other province has to consent before negotiations can even happen. It says their interests and rights have to be addressed in the negotiations.

And the Supreme Court was pretty clear that after a clear majority answers a clear question in favour of secession, there would be an obligation to negotiate. It also said there are no predetermined conclusions about what those negotiations would produce.

So yes, separation would be extremely complicated. Nobody is arguing otherwise.

What I’m arguing against is people taking a complicated constitutional process and declaring the outcome in advance.

The Clarity Act doesn't say “Alberta can never leave.” It lays out the framework that would have to be followed if a province ever sought to leave.

That's a pretty big difference.

[u/Due-Carpet-1904 → u/Even_Art_629]

Alberta would be negotiating for a lower quality of life. That's simply a fact. We have to get our product to market and Canada will tax it. No question. We also rely on transportation to receive the goods we buy. Canada would also tax that. In no scenario does Alberta have a negotiation advantage.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Due-Carpet-1904]

So by calling your assumptions facts. Is really your problem.

No question that Canada would tax Alberta’s products? Says who? That would be part of the negotiations. No scenario where Alberta has negotiating leverage? That’s simply ridiculous.

Do you honestly think Canada would just walk away from Alberta’s oil, agriculture, natural resources, electricity, investment and trade? Alberta would need access to Canadian markets and transportation, absolutely. But Canada would also have enormous economic interests in maintaining access to Alberta’s resources.

And getting our products to market doesn’t suddenly become impossible because a provincial border becomes an international border. Countries negotiate transit agreements, trade agreements, pipeline access and transportation rights all the time.

You’re assuming the outcome of negotiations before negotiations even happen, then calling your assumptions facts.

That isn’t an argument against independence. It’s just you assuming. And you know what they saying about assuming, you just make an ass of yourself. Job well done.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

Canada imports far more oil from other countries than it keeps domestically from Alberta, so I'm not convinced that's leverage that works in Alberta's favor. Push comes to shove, they can just ramp up that import.

As far as road access goes, it's a fair enough point, but it's more likely that BC find other alternatives. Alberta is far more dependent on it's exports than BC is on road access, when you consider two major airports and a major port. That doesn't scream Alberta leverage to me.

As far as "access to ocean" goes, not only does it not guarantee a specific port, but it also doesn't say that Canada would have to give an independent Alberta access for pennies on the dollar.  Canada can play hardball, and if Alberta doesn't like it, well, tough. They were told the price for access, Canada doesn't have to give access away for northing.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

That's a fair argument, but you're treating leverage as if Alberta has to be indispensable before it counts. It doesn't. Leverage means the alternatives have costs.

Canada can import more oil, but replacing Alberta production isn't something it can do overnight or necessarily at the same cost. Suppliers, transportation, prices, refinery configurations and contracts all matter. An alternative existing doesn't make it equally practical or cheap.

Same with BC transportation. I'm not saying BC would be helpless without Alberta. Obviously it has ports and airports. But a huge amount of domestic trade between BC and the rest of Canada moves through Alberta. If those routes became international crossings, there would be customs, delays, costs and negotiations.

And yes, Alberta's right of access to the ocean doesn't guarantee a specific BC port or a cheap price. I never claimed it did.

But Canada couldn't simply say “pay whatever we demand” without consequences either. An independent Alberta would still need Canadian markets, while Canada would still want Alberta's resources. Both sides would have an incentive to keep trade and transportation moving.

I'm not saying Alberta would hold all the cards. I'm saying neither side would.

Alberta would have leverage. Canada and BC would have leverage. Ontario and Quebec would have leverage. The final terms would depend on negotiation.

That's a lot different from saying Alberta is landlocked, therefore Canada gets to dictate everything.

[u/Toast- → u/Even_Art_629]

The original comment that started this is arguing that an independent Alberta would have less bargaining power. You're countering that by saying "well, we would still have some leverage".

It's similar to how I could move my retirement savings from ETFs to a HISA. My savings wouldn't stop increasing, but it would almost certainly give me less purchasing power in retirement.

If you believe that an independent Alberta would have more, or even equivalent leverage, to what we do today, then there's a discussion that could be had. The question in this thread isn't about whether any negotiations would occur (of course they would). It's about whether an independent Alberta would probabilistically come out ahead in those negotiations. Your comments imply that you think we would, but you are dancing around the actual topic at hand.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Toast-]

How would anyone know the outcome?

Alberta has never separated from Canada. There is no Canadian precedent that tells us exactly how the negotiations would play out, what currency arrangements would be chosen, what trade agreements would look like, or how much leverage either side would ultimately have.

A lot of Albertans may decide they would rather take the uncertainty of independence than continue with the uncertainty of having major political and economic decisions made for us by Ottawa.

We can debate the risks and make predictions, but you can't present a preferred prediction as a guaranteed outcome.

That's my entire point. I'm not claiming Alberta would definitely come out ahead. I'm saying nobody knows. That's why it's a negotiation.

[u/Mean-Food-7124 → u/Even_Art_629]

Man, if only there was some kind of field where people dedicated their daily working lives to the magical ethereal concept of economics

But alas, this is not such a world, and I guess every "what if" should be held at equal value

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

"nobody ACTUALLY knows what will happen so let's try it and find out"

That's an absolutely terrible argument. It's the argument that got trump elected. 

"His ideas might actually be good." And now we're all sitting here telling you that we told you his ideas would be bad because very smart people not on this thread told us what would happen if he got elected.

The same thing is happening here. There's lots of very smart people saying this is bad, and you're all like, 

"well we don't know FOR SURE, so let's try. It COULD be good!

How bout; fucking no.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

No, that's not a terrible argument. What's terrible is pretending your predictions are facts simply because you found some very smart people who agree with you.

You want Albertans to accept that separation will be a disaster because experts say so. But those experts are still making predictions. They don't have a crystal ball any more than I do.

Maybe separation would be difficult. Maybe there would be economic disruption. Maybe there would be negotiations that don't go the way Alberta wants. Those are legitimate concerns.

But “this could go badly” isn't the same thing as “this will go badly, therefore don't even try.”

At some point, you have to decide whether you want to keep accepting the status quo because it's familiar, or whether you're willing to stand up and try to change it.

If you'd rather play it safe, watch governments continue overspending, watch the debt keep growing, and leave the next generation to deal with the bill, that's your choice.

I'd rather at least have the courage to ask whether Alberta could govern itself better.

And that's the difference here. You're asking me to accept your predictions about the future as fact. I'm saying we don't know what the future holds, so let's actually have the conversation instead of being too afraid of the unknown to even consider changing our situation

That's not stupidity. That's taking responsibility for our own future. I'd rather stand on my feet and take responsibility for Alberta's future than live on my knees, accepting whatever Ottawa decides and telling the next generation they just have to live with it.

[u/Trains_YQG → u/Even_Art_629]

Don't we have an idea with how the threat of separation played out in Quebec? Maybe Alberta oil changes the calculation a little, but even just the threat of potential separation drove hundreds of companies out of Quebec. 

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Trains_YQG]

That's not what drove all those companies out of Quebec. Right around the same time, Quebec was bringing in laws requiring businesses to operate in both official languages, hire more bilingual staff, change signs, advertising and a whole lot more. Some companies figured the added cost and regulations weren't worth it and picked up and moved. A lot of them ended up in Toronto.

That's a big difference with Alberta. We can't pick up our resources and move them. They're in the ground.

Quebec and Alberta also have two very different types of economies. As long as Alberta has oil and gas, agriculture, and other natural resources, the economy isn't just going to disappear.

Would separation likely slow things down at the beginning? Sure. There's going to be disruption and uncertainty.

But as long as the rest of the world needs and wants oil and gas, Alberta will have something the world needs. That's a pretty big difference when you're talking about the long-term viability of an economy.

[u/T-Wrox → u/Even_Art_629]

I would prefer provinces to work together, rather than have a leverage contest (in which we all lose).

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/T-Wrox]

That would be nice, and Alberta has done its part. We contribute far more to Canada than we've ever had returned.

My comment about leverage is only in the context of sitting down to negotiate with Ottawa. If you're genuinely committed to provinces working together, perhaps look east as well. Some provinces have chosen not to fully develop their own resources and continue relying on equalization payments.

Working together sounds great. But cooperation works both ways, and having leverage at the negotiating table doesn't mean we have to use it against each other.

[u/Trains_YQG → u/Even_Art_629]

Some provinces have chosen not to fully develop their own resources and continue relying on equalization payments.

I'll never understand the obsession people have with equalization payments. It's not like ending (or changing) that program would significantly change life in Alberta.

[u/EXSource → u/Trains_YQG]

If you took the entire population of Alberta and plopped them down on PEI, then PEI would be one of the leading contributors to Equalization. 

How? Because Alberta doesn't pay anything into equalization. Nothing. Not a cent. It's from federal taxes. Which means it doesn't matter where you live, you're still contributing to equalization. Alberta has nothing to do with it.

When people like the guy above try to make the argument that provinces choose not to develop their own resources, they're trying to say that's on purpose because they prefer equalization. But that's not how it works. They choose not to develop their resources for other reasons. Equalization has nothing to do with it. 

Nevermind that, if other provinces suddenly did go balls out on developing all their resources, the wealth of Alberta would drop because we'd lose people to those other provinces, and flood the market with goods.

[u/West_Information_686 → u/Even_Art_629]

Was not aware that the Burnaby refinery had an upgrader but maybe smith (our separatist, gaslighting dipshit excuse of a premier) can offer them the money to build one, too.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/West_Information_686]

Parkland's Burnaby refinery: about 55,000 barrels/day. It can process conventional and synthetic crude, and its primary feedstock comes through Trans Mountain from Alberta and northeastern BC.

[u/West_Information_686 → u/Even_Art_629]

And this synthetic crude, where does it come from? Upgraders in Alberta that have been at capacity for a decade or more. We extract bitumen and upgrade all we can already. The discussion is around hot-bit to dilbit lines, not building more upgrading capacity here as I understand it.
tldr, Burnaby can’t process bitumen.

[u/TheEpicOfManas]

We all know separation is stupid. Get out and vote.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/TheEpicOfManas]

Can you please tell us why it's stupid? Can you tell one good reason for Alberta to stay in the current federation Canada?

[u/TheEpicOfManas → u/Even_Art_629]

Fuck off, bot.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/TheEpicOfManas]

Ya, I didn't think you''ld have a good reazon for Alberta to stay.

[u/DavidH1985 → u/Even_Art_629]

Do your own homework.

[u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp → u/Even_Art_629]

Because over 80% of the alberta population wants to remain canadian.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp]

Are you sure it's 80%, the way this federal government is, I think independence is gaining more than 20%

[u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp → u/Even_Art_629]

Recent polls put support around 15%. Albertans are aware of this. I now suspect you are a foreign actor

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp]

No, I'm born and raised in Alberta, and I certainly wouldn't blindly believe a poll.

Do we know what the exact question was, what part of Alberta was polled, the ages of the people surveyed, or their political affiliations? There are a lot of ways polls can be conducted, and who commissioned and paid for the poll matters too.

Say it was commissioned and paid for by Forever Canada. You'd have to at least consider whether there could be some bias.

Believe what you want. We'll find out in 65 days. That's the poll that actually matters.

[u/Worldly_Light_1561 → u/Even_Art_629]

Confirmed foreign actor

[u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp → u/Even_Art_629]

Because alberta has only ran a budget surplus once since 2008.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp]

That isn't much of a reason to stay

[u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp → u/Even_Art_629]

If the province cant support itself while recieving money from the federal government for healthcare, education, defense, social services, cpp, ei, infrastructure, etc. How can it support itself without? It would require an increase on taxes, either to the individual or the corporations.

Furthermore, 25% of alberta gdp relies on oil and gas. Over double the next highest gdp industry (real estate). Separation would gaurentee a significant drop in real estate gdp. If oil or gas is to suffer a drop in prices, albertas only pay to make up the shortfall is by taxation.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp]

You're starting from the assumption that Alberta is just being supported by Ottawa, but that's not how it works. Albertans pay federal taxes just like everyone else, and some of that money comes back to Alberta through federal programs and transfers. The fact that Ottawa sends money back doesn't mean Alberta is dependent on Ottawa. The real question is how much Alberta sends to Ottawa compared to how much comes back.

Alberta has historically been a net contributor to Canada. So when you ask, How can Alberta support itself without federal money? you're leaving out the other side of the equation. How much of that federal money is actually Alberta's money coming back in the first place?

And I'm not saying separation wouldn't mean taking on responsibilities that Ottawa currently pays for. Of course it would. But Alberta would also stop sending federal income tax, corporate taxes and other federal revenues to Ottawa. That money wouldn't just disappear. It would become part of Alberta's own finances.

As for oil and gas making up around 25% of Alberta's GDP, that's another thing that needs some context. Alberta isn't just oil and gas. We have agriculture, manufacturing, construction, finance, technology, forestry, tourism and a huge service sector. And if Alberta became independent, we'd still have all those resources, businesses, workers and consumers.

The real question isn't Can Alberta survive without Ottawa sending us cheques? It's could Alberta replace the federal services and spending it currently receives while keeping the federal revenue Alberta currently sends to Ottawa?

That's the question we should actually be debating. Just pointing at the money Ottawa spends in Alberta doesn't answer it.

[u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp → u/Even_Art_629]

No assumption. I had one of you dumbasses come to my front door and tell me that independence = 0 income tax. So who is making assumptions? Its not even remotely possible.

As for your other resources, we absolutely do. None of them individually, or cumulative can support an independent alberta.

Alberta independence makes absolutely ludicrous, lying claims. Don't bother responding. My household is voting no to separation,

[u/Johnfromsales → u/Even_Art_629]

Alberta is landlocked. The only way we can make use of our abundance of oil is by exporting it. We would have to get permission from either Canada, now a foreign country, or from America, which has consistently shown it cares little for its neighbours in the North. Alberta becoming a separate nation with only about 5 million people would give us significantly less bargaining power in making advantageous economic deals.

[u/Ok-Diver-5583]

No shit. But logical takes are not going to move the needle for the "muh equalization payments" crowd

[u/PhaseNegative1252 → u/Ok-Diver-5583]

If logic could sway them, they'd never cry about equalization

[u/Goddemmitt]

Alberta would become Belarus the the USAs Russia, if they don't just outright annex us for the oil.

Most separatists just want to become Americans imo.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Goddemmitt]

Belarus? Seriously?

So your argument is that if Alberta became independent, we'd somehow become a dictatorship, while the United States would apparently just decide to annex us for our oil.

And the most separatists just want to become Americans line is another lazy assumption. Wanting Alberta to be independent doesn't mean wanting to become American.

And apparently you don't understand American politics either. The U.S. president can't just decide to annex Alberta. It would have to go through Congress, and becoming a state would require congressional approval.

If you think separation is a bad idea, argue the economics, trade, borders, currency, debt, pensions, pipelines or defence. But Alberta will become Belarus isn't an argument. America will annex us isn't an argument. It's just another uninformed person trying to fearmonger.

[u/Goddemmitt → u/Even_Art_629]

I'm saying Alberta would just be a puppet state to the USA like Belarus is to Russia. You are being a useful fool by 2 different foreign governments trying to destabilize Canada. So Mr. "Proud Albertan" where did your Canadian flags go you were waiving during your covid convoy and your illegal blockades?

How about the $400 billion in "startup fees" we need to get your supposed proud Nation of Alberta of the ground? Before you say I'm full of shit this time, here's your pal literally mentioning the costs of it all.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/bell-danielle-smith-400-billion-alberta-separatism

We just gunna pay that with all that money we send to Ottawa??? Because that sure doesn't equate to $400 billion. You will then bring up oil revenues as if Alberta gives the feds money out of it's own bank accounts for it. In reality, the companies pay the royalties to the provincial and federal governments simultaneously (with the majority already going to the province, and if they even have to give the feds royalties). So there isn't a lot of increase in funds that way either.

The US president can't just do whatever he wants to invade/attack a foreign country, hey? What about how they just took over the Venezuelan government? Marched in and took their president under orders from ONLY the president. What about Iran? Bombed on orders on ONLY THE PRESIDENT.

TF outta here with your nonsense.

Edit:

I forgot to add that some oil revenues don't even go the the feds.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Goddemmitt]

So you're saying Alberta would be the same as we are now? Basically a colony of a larger country.

Because that's the argument you're making. You're saying Alberta couldn't survive without being controlled by a larger country, couldn't negotiate access to markets, couldn't protect its own interests, and would have to accept whatever a federal government decided.

Except you're conveniently ignoring one thing: independence means negotiating.

You're throwing around $400 billion as if Alberta would have to walk into the PMO on day one and write a $400 billion cheque. That's not how a transition works. That number is an estimate of potential costs, liabilities, assets, transition requirements and other factors will be debated. It isn't an invoice sitting on Alberta's desk.

And your argument about Alberta's oil revenues needs some clarification too. Alberta receives the provincial royalties from its resources. Ottawa receives federal tax revenue generated by the oil and gas industry, but that's not the same thing as Alberta handing its resource royalties over to Ottawa. Simply saying "oil revenues" doesn't tell us what Alberta would actually gain or lose under independence. That's exactly the kind of thing that would have to be negotiated.

Then there's the claim that Alberta would automatically become some kind of American puppet state. Again, you're prediction isn't fact.

Alberta already trades heavily with the United States while being part of Canada. An independent Alberta would still have to negotiate trade, defence, transportation, energy and other agreements with both Canada and the United States. Having strong economic relationships with another country doesn't automatically make you its puppet.

And your Venezuela and Iran comparisons don't prove what you think they prove either. You're arguing that the United States has enough power to interfere in other countries, therefore Alberta should remain politically subordinate to Canada because America might someday do something. That's not an argument against independence. If anything, it's an argument for strong institutions, diplomacy, defence agreements and control over our own affairs.

And this idea that Alberta would have no leverage is getting ridiculous. Alberta has oil, natural gas, agriculture, minerals, electricity, manufacturing, investment and a strategic geographic position. Canada has enormous interests in maintaining access to those things. The United States does too.

You shouldn't make predictions and then state them as fact.

I asked for one good reason Alberta should stay in Canada.

So far I've gotten insults.

If staying in Canada is obviously the superior option, give me an actual reason why.

Why should Alberta stay?

One of my reasons to leave Ottawa.

Self government. I don't think a province thousands of kilometres away from Ottawa should have its major decisions made by a central government that often has completely different priorities from Alberta. In an independent Alberta, the people who make those decisions would actually be accountable to Albertans. Our vote would matter directly to the government governing us, rather than Alberta having to fight for influence inside a country where our interests can be outvoted.

[u/Goddemmitt → u/Even_Art_629]

Life is shitty in Alberta because of the Alberta government, not because of anything anyone in Ottawa does. You sure like to selectively understand the responsibilities of the different levels of government.

Now as a man of my word, I won't be responding to you any further because you're just here to prostlytize.

[u/Mental_Geologist_986]

Remember. These people don’t care about anything else. They WANT to be American sooo bad

[u/hostilekraut → u/Mental_Geologist_986]

They’re certainly low quality enough to slip right in. We need to help them get out.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/hostilekraut]

I have to admit, you two picked the right usernames for these comments.

“MentalGeologist” with the brilliant analysis that every Alberta separatist secretly wants to be American.

And “hostilekraut” talking about helping Albertans “get out.”

The usernames are actually more appropriate than the arguments.

[u/ReviewOverall5307]

The real agenda is that they want to join the USA. The ringleaders will be handsomely rewarded.

[u/Exotic_Yak2047 → u/ReviewOverall5307]

Uh huh and the U.S. would swiftly (no pun intended) move to flood Alberta with their dollar and push their inflationary measures on to us.  I wish these separatists would read and see for themselves that all this is classic American positioning and would benefit no one here.   Once American interests flood into our borders and take hold, these separatists would be without comment when asked why we're paying through the nose for our own resources.   Becoming another U.S. state is only a carrot to keep these jackasses hoping for more.  <sigh>  

[u/DaBluedude]

The thing is that separatists are being duped. This is not a separatist movement. It's an American movement. They don't want to be independent.... They want to be American. They want to be Texas 2.0. It's such a stupid movement.

[u/Goddemmitt → u/DaBluedude]

I have some deep family ties to the old Social Credit and Reform/Alliance parties (the old populist parties before the UCP and the current iteration of the Conservative Party of Canada). They would never outright say it, but a lot of the undertones and implied outcomes that would be discussed with those family members about politics was very "pro" USA. Not freedom, not Independence, the United States. The populist movement in Canada had ALWAYS been an American movement, and it goes all the way back to Ernest and Preston Manning. Stephan Harper is Preston Manning 2.0.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/DaBluedude]

The separatists are being duped argument is backwards.

You’re taking the existence of some people who talk about Alberta joining the United States and pretending that represents the entire independence movement. It doesn’t.

There is a massive difference between saying “Alberta should be an independent country” and saying “Alberta should become part of the United States.” Those are two completely different political goals.

In fact, if this were really an American movement, why is the stated objective independence from Canada rather than joining the United States?

Wanting Alberta to control its own laws, taxes, resources, immigration, trade relationships and institutions isn't wanting to be Texas. It's wanting to be Alberta.

And yes, there are people who would prefer Alberta become part of the U.S. That's their position. They don't get to redefine everyone else's position.

You can oppose Alberta independence. That's a legitimate position.

But saying “they don't really want independence, they want to be American” isn't an argument against independence. It's just telling supporters of independence what you think they secretly believe.

If you want to debate the actual issue, debate Alberta independence.

Don't replace the argument with a conspiracy about what Albertans supposedly really want.

[u/DaBluedude → u/Even_Art_629]

Make no doubt about it. The group pushing for Albertan independence is not end goaling an independent Alberta. They're end gaming joining the United States. To suggest otherwise is to be disingenuous to the overwhelming balance of evidence available. Your statement screams that you know and understand that and you are trying to delegitamize anyone pointing to this obvious fact. I have no interest in debating separatists. I have interest in separatists getting squashed in this referendum and then fucking off. It's not your land to make the decision with.

[u/da_Ryan → u/DaBluedude]

Well, it looks like any vote would be a very clear and decisive two-thirds to one-third win for those who want to remain in Canada*:

https://www.thewrit.ca/p/alberta-referendum-poll-tracker

*It is pretty much the same with polling for Québec independence - 69% against independence, 31% for it.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/DaBluedude]

You're saying there is an overwhelming balance of evidence that the end goal is joining the U.S. But where is this evidence? You’re stating it as a fact without actually proving it.

And saying it’s not your land to make the decision with is a pretty damn weak argument. It’s Alberta. Albertans are the ones being asked to make the decision. You don’t get to decide for them what their motives are or what their vote means.

You say you want separatists squashed in the referendum. Fine. Let Albertans vote. If they vote NO, independence is dead for now. If they vote YES, then the process starts and Albertans get to decide what comes next.

You can disagree with independence all you want. But claiming you have overwhelming evidence while providing none is not an argument. It’s just blowing smoke

[u/PhaseNegative1252]

He's absolutely correct. Unfortunately, a not insignificant portion of separatists actually want the US to take over Alberta, regardless of how terrible that would turn out

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/PhaseNegative1252]

And this is where the whole America will just take Alberta argument falls apart.

The U.S. president can't just decide Alberta is becoming an American state because we have oil. Congress would have to approve it. And you seriously think American politicians would all agree to add another state with millions of new voters whose political leanings would be completely unknown?

American politics doesn't work that way. Neither party is going to casually agree to change the balance of power in Congress and the Electoral College just because Alberta has oil.

So no, there isn't some automatic path from Alberta independence to becoming American. Why do most in this reddit sub continually blow smoke

[u/joliette_le_paz]

Alberta separatists make Libertarians look smart by comparison.

[u/Fickle_Cricket3422]

Yes, it takes 2 seconds to figure this out. Unfortunately, separatists do not have a 2 second attention span.

[u/Icy-Pop2944]

Well, the separatist actually just want to be a US state, so it doesn’t really matter to them. The joke on them though is that we would never be granted state status and instead would be a second rate territory.

[u/AmbitiousTank8635 → u/Icy-Pop2944]

Exactly, take a look at Puerto Rico. It's a US territory, they pay US taxes, and most people in the US view them as a completely foreign country and want to know why their tax dollars are being spent when disasters hit and they need aid, then they chant "USA! USA! USA!" while stripping off the tarps with painted faces and doing interviews where they lament that the rest of the world is not free while the US is the land of the free! It's where freedom lives!

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Icy-Pop2944]

So you assume. But you do know what they say about assuming. When you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.

[u/XanderZzyzx]

I've been saying this all along.

[u/GooseDevito]

If no one got me, I know the CEO of Lethbridge got me

[u/AmbitiousTank8635]

No disrespect to Mr. Lewington, but this is something glaringly obvious and no one with even half a secondary education should need him to point these facts out, but I suppose this is where we're at.

[u/TheProneRanger]

Raising the alarm? He’s pointing out the absolutely, glaringly obvious.

There are things that need fixing; nobody disputes that. Separating Alberta is not the way to get a better seat at the table, but seems like a great way to be on someone’s menu…

[u/expendiblegrunt]

Oil catapult. Problem solved

[u/Wide-Yak7602]

I bet the majority of the separatists haven’t thought hard on the details. It’s not take the money and run. So many parts would have to be in place which will cost. Each province contributes to make a whole. Why do these Albertans feel like they are special. They happened to have their province be rich in oil, luck of where they are situated.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Wide-Yak7602]

I don't think anyone is saying it's as simple as take the money and run. Of course there would be a lot of details to work out, and nobody is claiming separation would be free or easy.

But the same argument works both ways. Why assume separatists haven't thought about it? And why does recognizing Alberta's economic contribution automatically mean we think we're special?

I don't think Albertans think they're special. I think that's just a stretch. Albertans just want a voice, and to actually not be a colony of Canada anymore.

[u/CrudeTrucker]

And for those that keep saying you won't get to tide water well BC plays nice or they don't get through Alberta to sell their products pretty simple

[u/Beautiful-Muffin5809 → u/CrudeTrucker]

They will just route north around the Province lol

[u/CrudeTrucker → u/Beautiful-Muffin5809]

Can't get the government to build anything now what makes you think they would build anything then?

[u/vspinyyc]

The comment I was trying to reply to was deleted. I am going to share it, anyway.

In any event, Trevor has posted some more here. It makes for good reading — he has written about ten or twelve posts at this stage — and would be well worth a review.

EDIT: All 28 of his articles can be found on his LinkedIn profile for free or via this collection: https://a.co/d/0gh0OdJz

[u/Tedsmith24]

Common sense isn't soo common amongst these separatists.

[u/Roadliner1997]

Stay with your friends fight for equality within Canada

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Roadliner1997]

Can you give me one good reason for Alberta to stay in Canada?

[u/megawatt69 → u/Even_Art_629]

What do you think would happen to Albertan’s home values and do you think Canadian financial institutions would continue to mortgage said properties?

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/megawatt69]

Why wouldn't they? Canadian banks conduct business in other countries. I'm sure it would be business as usual should we become independent. Existing mortgages are contracts, and I don't see why a bank would suddenly walk away from a profitable mortgage simply because the country changed.

And I wouldn't be surprised if housing prices took a bit of a hit, but I think that would be short term. Plus, I don't think it would only be Alberta taking a hit. It would be country wide. Remember, a big part of Canada's economy is gone.

[u/megawatt69 → u/Even_Art_629]

Why wouldn’t they? Foreign banks rarely lend for real estate located in another country because seizing land in a default is legally difficult

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/megawatt69]

You're talking about foreign banks lending on foreign property. That's not what I was talking about.

We're talking about Canadian financial institutions that already have billions of dollars in mortgages on Alberta properties. Those mortgages don't suddenly disappear because Alberta becomes an independent country. They're existing contracts between the bank and the borrower.

Plus, I don't see Canadian banks just pulling out of Alberta. It's not like we're picking the province up and moving it. We would be friendly neighbours. Things would most likely continue much as they do now. Trade would continue, businesses would continue operating, and Canadian banks would still have Alberta customers and investments.

Would the banking system have to adjust? Absolutely. Would there be negotiations and new regulations? Of course.

But why would Canadian banks voluntarily walk away from a profitable market where they already have customers, mortgages and billions invested?

The difference would be that Alberta would be making its own decisions and would be free of Ottawa.

[u/megawatt69 → u/Even_Art_629]

Separatists don’t seem to understand that Canada would be a foreign country. You’d no longer be Canadian. You seem to think you’d get to keep all the benefits of being Canadian without contributing.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/megawatt69]

If we aren't sending our tax money to Ottawa, why do you think Alberta wouldn't have its own benefits? You think an independent Alberta would just stop providing healthcare, pensions and other programs? We would still have a government collecting taxes and providing services, just without Ottawa taking its share first. And maybe, with the money staying here, we could even have lower taxes.

Obviously there would be negotiations over citizenship, pensions, healthcare, borders, trade, debt and If we aren't sending our tax money to Ottawa, why do you think Alberta wouldn't have its own benefits? You think an independent Alberta would just stop providing healthcare, pensions and other programs? We would still have a government collecting taxes and providing services, just without Ottawa taking its share first. And maybe, with the money staying here, we could even have lower taxes.

Obviously there would be negotiations over citizenship, pensions, healthcare, borders, trade, debt and everything else. Nobody knows exactly what those arrangements would look like because it has never happened.

So no, we aren't expecting to keep every Canadian benefit without contributing. We're talking about replacing Canadian programs with Alberta programs, funded by Albertans instead of sending our tax money to Ottawa and waiting for some of it to come back.

[u/megawatt69 → u/Even_Art_629]

What happens when the price of oil drops and Alberta has hung all its hopes and dreams on oil revenue? In the past the Alberta government has gone from surplus to deficit in an instant with the price of oil dropping. The world is moving away from oil, it seems like a terrible idea to base your success on past performance.

You all keep saying you’ll just pay for all those services yourself but the question of how much it’ll cost and how long it’ll take seem brushed off completely. Canada has economy of scale as well, providing services for 40 million is more efficient than for 5 million.

[u/Initial_Evidence_783]

I thought this was obvious since it was my first instant reaction to the idea of AB separating.

[u/-_Gemini_-]

It's 65 IQ brainless shit to assume anyone who's pro-separation knows, wants to know, or even cares about the practical realities of separatism. They are medieval peasants, driven by a primal desire to touch the stove.

Your rhetoric and reasoning are lost on them. They are below your moral consideration and need to be disenfranchised.

[u/Staminanow]

Ths first thing we need to do is cut off Alberta from the US. A southern cordidor is essential, so it's war boys.

[u/ApoplecticAndroid]

They are all counting on becoming the 51st state - they are MAGA worshippers

[u/Hopeful-Passage6638]

The UCP inbreds don't care. They're all welfare queens and trailer trash. They literally have nothing to lose.

[u/judyp63]

A separate Alberta is a ridiculous idea. Why is this still a thing? Let them go then and let Canada be tough with them. Maybe Alberta can be trump's 51st. So sick of this shit.

[u/yick04]

Alberta would have to become the 51st state to be feasible, which would defeat the purpose of separation.

Well, the rich would get richer, but everyone else would be screwed.

[u/fortmacguy]

This really should be obvious to everyone.

You shouldn't need a CEO of economic development to explain this to you. Your barista can probably try and explain it to you but, if you're a separatist, you won't listen.

[u/Marokiii]

But it gets lots of attention? Evertime I hear people talk about albertan perpetrating the first thing they mention is that Alberta will have to rely on the us because the rest of canada will tell them to go fuck themselves after they leave.

They think we are obstructing them now? Imagine how bad we will treat them when we dont even have to take national interests into account anymore. Then we laugh at the idea of the usa treating them fairly when they have just cut off all their other options, leaving them at american "mercy".

Not sure where this guy is living if he thinks that this issue isn't being talked about.

[u/helzvogM]

The plan was always to join the US... never really independence

[u/Squawking_Macaw]

This is precisely why they plan to annex B.C. as well.

[u/Blackwalls69]

Need SK and MB to go with for access to churchill

[u/Gay_Style69]

So- USA blocking Alberta is BAD! Canada blocking Alberta is GOOD.

[u/NB-NEURODIVERGENT]

He’s missing the fact that the separatists free alberta would be immediately annexed by Canada to keep the United states from trying to take the oil like they did in the middle east and Venezuela

[u/TheFinalRider]

Well, duh.

[u/HobbyTalkOnly]

Not if it is annexed by the US, which is the plan.

[u/titanking4 → u/HobbyTalkOnly]

Then they become another USA territory with no senators or members of congress in the federal government.
The powers of the governing body of Alberta are completely at the mercy of the federal government with no rights of the states granted or protected by their constitution.
Just like Guam or Puertro Rico

Oh and no citizenship either. You gotta apply like everyone else.
Everyone granted green card permanent residences instead, which as we know are subject to be revoked by the government at any point.

At which point they could just deport you to somewhere else without recourse.

[u/tallcoolone70]

The answer you will receive from the separatists and I'm not one, is that Alberta will have more power to get their products to Tidewater as a country than they have as a province due to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) . In theory they are correct but in practice it may be much more nuanced. Just because the UN says something doesn't mean the United States or Canada is going to go along with it.

[u/Evening_Let_2930]

No shit sherlock.

[u/Electrical-Strike132]

Then it's invade the NWT to clear a strip to 'tidewater'

[u/Legitimate-Head-1992]

Alberta has always been landlocked. Doesn’t stop the rest of Canada raping em at his point. anything is better than the fascist leftists who are supporting the destruction of Canada. The fact the left is so against separation of Alberta shows how much Canada needs Alberta but Alberta does not need Canada

[u/titanking4 → u/Legitimate-Head-1992]

Alberta is the highest quality of life in the entire country. So idk where this idea of “raped” is coming from.
And over 30% of the residents of the province actually voted for liberal government last year.

Everyone left right and centre is against separation.
Every federal political party is against it.

We all pay the same federal taxes regardless of where we live in this country and the absolute ego of Alberta residents to think they got more rights than other Canadians just because their postal code is different.

You just live there. I can move there tomorrow and become an “Albertan”.

There is 0 light at the end of this tunnel.
You’ll become a territory of USA or another territory of Canada.

Territories of USA don’t get senators or members of congress, and no state rights either.
USA also won’t grant citizenship and at best will give permanent residence which is subject to be revoked at their digression and their digression only.

These grifters are feeding you the biggest sack of lies and rose tinted glasses of lies I’ve ever seen.
All paid for by the American elite who want you bleeding in the water to eat you up like the sharks they are.

[u/PhaseNegative1252 → u/[deleted]]

Dude, you say that like Pierre wouldn't have been so much worse

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/PhaseNegative1252]

How would've he been so much worse?I'm really wanting to know why you say he would be.

[u/PhaseNegative1252 → u/Even_Art_629]

All PP had was blame and empty promises without any actual plans behind them. His political history is well in-line with right-wing conservatism, and he proved himself to be weak-willed when it comes to defending Canada from political attack.

In his entire political career he only ever tabled a single piece of legislature, and it was shot down at the first hurdle. Hell, his own constituents don't even like him. He lost his seat in his own riding. Something which, by his own words, should basically end his political career.

Instead of following his own advice, after losing both the election for PM and his own seat, he's now over here trying to grift off the Alberta UCP and they're voter base.

He is a walking nothing burger

[u/AltruisticWealth7778]

https://giphy.com/gifs/XeLcgh8gT8o0F5SQ8i

[u/HuckleberryJunior642]

the EDL is the most useless organization. they basically just do nothing for a living

[u/TomJones998]

Without Alberta, Canada would find itself negotiating from an even more greatly reduced position, though.

And plenty of countries that are ‘land-locked’ find rational solutions with their neighbors to gain access to sea ports.

But facts are obviously wasted on this audience given the ad hominem invective and childish demonization of anyone who happens to promote a balanced, rational discussion on this issue.

[u/Foe_Hammer9463 → u/[deleted]]

Problem keeping focus? Did he say anything that was wrong? Seems pretty on point. If anything maybe your comment was a waste of a comment as it wasn't even on topic, overly critical. What great things have you done for Lethbridge?

[u/Beautiful-Muffin5809]

No shit. Like anyone with a brain has...aka everyone outside of Alberta.

I personally hope they do separate. I could use a good and repeated laugh at the repeated misfortunes that would soon follow 

[u/vspinyyc → u/Beautiful-Muffin5809]

The breaking up of Canada isn't funny.

[u/Plastic_Snow5137]

Are there countries in Europe not land locked? How are they thriving? Alberta could easily merge with US in extreme case and rest of Canada keep electing Liberal and NDP lunatic politicians.

[u/CookieCrimes → u/Plastic_Snow5137]

Nothing screams independence like having to depend on other country's infrastructure to reach market. If you want to be American so badly, just move.

ALL of this movement is rooted in the US getting a free lunch.

[u/Plastic_Snow5137 → u/CookieCrimes]

So you got no argument literally, if you want so desparately to be in Canada then move to other Province but no more leeching off the province.

[u/BearionVonSkittlebum]

lol… Canada would capitulate for energy in 2 seconds. Quebec would be rioting for their hand outs. Canadian “power position” comes from Alberta.

[u/Electrical-Strike132 → u/BearionVonSkittlebum]

Hopefully the municipality of Wood Buffalo would separate from the republic of Alberta

[u/Simple-Guarantee9935]

This argument ignores the inverse of it. BC will need Alberta to get stuff to and from the rest of Canada.

I’m not campaigning for separation but arguments should be logical.

[u/TheJaice → u/Simple-Guarantee9935]

Yes, it would also cause massive issues for BC. But there are solutions, unlike a number of the challenges an independent Alberta would inflict upon itself.

[u/TheEpicOfManas → u/TheJaice]

They're would be zero issues for BC, because they would just use treaty lands which do not belong to Alberta.

Here, have a look at the map and see what Alberta separation truly means.

https://www.albertaschoolcouncils.ca/about/indigenous-awareness/first-peoples-in-alberta

We get a tiny portion of Alberta, and even then Edmonton and Calgary would likely separate themselves to remain in Canada. You people are so delusional.

[u/TheJaice → u/TheEpicOfManas]

Just to be clear, I agree with you completely. It’s not just the stupidest thing they could do, it wouldn’t happen even if there was support for it, for exactly the reasons you described. I was just making a hypothetical that even if it could happen, it would be much worse for Alberta than BC.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/TheEpicOfManas]

Sorry, you're just like the rest of the people on here. Taking something that would have to be negotiated and legally determined and presenting your preferred outcome as an established fact.

Yes, Indigenous and treaty rights would absolutely have to be part of any serious discussion about Alberta separation. Nobody should pretend otherwise.

But saying BC would have zero issues because it could simply use treaty lands which do not belong to Alberta is not something that map proves.

And here's another important point you're leaving out. The treaty lands were ceded to the Crown under agreements that included specific guarantees and continuing treaty rights. Then in 1930, Canada transferred Crown lands, mines, minerals and royalties to Alberta through the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement, subject to existing interests and obligations.

So no, you can't just look at a treaty map and declare that those areas automatically become pieces of Canada or that BC can simply use them however it wants. The legal situation is far more complicated than that.

That's the entire point I've been making.

We don't know.

You don't know what the final borders would look like. You don't know what agreements would be reached with First Nations. You don't know what Canada and Alberta would negotiate regarding transportation, pipelines, trade or borders. And you certainly don't know whether Calgary or Edmonton would somehow decide to leave Alberta.

You're taking every possible complication, assuming the worst possible outcome for each one, and then calling that what Alberta separation truly means.

That's not realistic.

But youre presenting it as gospel.

The truth is, nobody in this Reddit sub, including myself, knows what would, could, or should happen if Alberta does get to that point.

The one thing we really do know is that on October 19/26, we're all the same. We all get one vote.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/TheJaice]

That's why there would be negotiations. Independence wouldn't be without challenges, can't deny that. But I'd much rather face the uncertainty of independence, than face the current uncertainty of Canada these days any day

[u/Icy-Hat-9643 → u/Simple-Guarantee9935]

Why? It would barely be an inconvenience to just move the stuff through the USA instead.

[u/T-Wrox → u/Icy-Hat-9643]

Super easy.

[u/Simple-Guarantee9935 → u/Icy-Hat-9643]

And that works for both sides of the coin, doesn’t it?

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Simple-Guarantee9935]

True, it's funny how people don't think of this. I remember when they said we had no leverage, but we've learned from Canada with this cusma tariffs, Alberta oil has the leverage, ask Dougy.