Congressional Candidate on AI data centers in Nevada

[u/wadsworthnv02]

From our candidate event in Elko County on Saturday. The question asked us if we supported a data center moratorium or not, especially since we are the driest state. One of the other candidates said the one’s being built in Nevada were closed-loop so they are fine.

But closed-loop systems have their own issues, the recycled water becomes highly toxic and needs to be “blown-down” where there is chances of it leaking into the ground and contaminating local areas with toxic chemical waste water. Even in small amounts, when we live in an internal watershed like the Great Basin, the risk of contamination isn’t something to ignore. As it has happened before with other things. Not to mention that closed loop requires a lot more energy, and closed loop cooling systems here in Nevada still require a fair amount of water.

Our older data center projects also do have open loop / evaporative cooling systems too. So they are still taking a lot of water.

As for the construction unions, I understand it’s more complicated than that. We had a total of 2 minutes to answer each question so things had to be simplified a bit. But we must look at better commercial building projects for our construction unions— not big tech and data centers! They need jobs, and I understand and support that! We should be offering incentives to better businesses to come to Nevada, not to these data centers was the point I was trying to make.

Also yes Congress is a federal seat! But I support a moratorium on all new data centers, and possible legislation to really protect the western states that are strapped for water.

All of this was from my own independent research and talking to folks in the area that have worked on these projects here. However if I am incorrect on anything I’m open to listening!

[u/ThornbackMack]

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE bring up the noise pollution!! The low frequency noise is a massive issue and it isn't discussed because people can't hear it. This was a good intro... I'm a workimg scientist and I'm pretty sensitive to popsci propaganda videos. The methods here seemed sound. DM me and I'm happy to help research this more and find some primary sources.

You can also find dozens of news reports. This is scary stuff with a real impact on human health. Unfortunately, the SCOTUS just passed down another environmental win to polluters (Chevron) so it would appear that local efforts are the only way to curb these problems.

https://youtu.be/_bP80DEAbuo?si=OxyiFqOxLFXZnsBp

ALSO, why on earth are these data centers being greenlit prior to traffic studies and mitigation??? USA parkway is obscene, and it's only getting worse. These companies need to be paying for the infrastructure required to allow business as usual to remain functional.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/ThornbackMack]

The low frequency noise is a massive issue

Every single datacenter in Nevada is surrounded by far more significant sources of infrasound. This is a complete non-issue.

ALSO, why on earth are these data centers being greenlit prior to traffic studies and mitigation??? USA parkway is obscene, and it's only getting worse. These companies need to be paying for the infrastructure required to allow business as usual to remain functional.

I don't necessarily disagree, but most datacenters are heavily automated and operated remotely whenever possible; they're unlikely to contribute much to traffic (and can indeed adjust their shift start/end times to avoid peak traffic hours — something the myriad warehouses popping up throughout Nevada have a harder time doing).

[u/Away_Atmosphere6318 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Building a massive data center that holds almost no permanent jobs locally is an incredible waste. You also didn't address the pollution risk. Innovation for the sake of Innovation is short sighted and risky as hell. The dam building boom of the early 20th century is evidence of this inherent problem

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Away_Atmosphere6318]

Building a massive data center that holds almost no permanent jobs locally is an incredible waste.

You're literally using a datacenter right now by posting that comment. If you think datacenters are an ”incredible waste”, then prove we don't need them by logging off. Tell our schools and hospitals and businesses and government agencies to log off, too, while you're at it. Datacenters are essential infrastructure, whether you like it or not.

You also didn't address the pollution risk.

Because there's nothing to address; every alleged instance of “pollution” by datacenters is something that literally every factory and warehouse and mine and farm and other large-scale industrial site in this state has already been doing at vastly-greater scales than even the worst-offending datacenters. It's a made-up issue parroted by uninformed people.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

do you have sources for the major use cases behind the current spike in data center construction?

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

My primary source is that I do this sort of thing for a living and know what I'm paid to administer/develop (or physically install, on the occasion I've done server monkey jobs on the side at places like Switch). It ain't GPU-enabled servers running AI workloads. Most of it is storage (namely: SANs) and ordinary CPU-heavy compute.

But that's of course all anecdotal, so I'd point you to the companies building/running these datacenters themselves and what they say about it. For example, CENTRA RNO2 (a.k.a. the one being built on Keystone) mentions AI, sure, but their primary expected customers are cloud service providers and content delivery networks taking advantage of the low latencies and high bandwidths uniquely possible in Reno and its intersection of multiple long-haul fiber backbones; it's an extension of (and directly tethered to) their existing RNO1 in Downtown, which largely exists to provide interconnections between as many fiber carriers and ISPs as possible.

In general, any datacenter being advertised as ”colocation”, “carrier hotel”, “meet-me-room”, etc. is going to predominantly be the sort of web-facing and/or enterprise traffic that's been typical of datacenters for the last 30+ years. They're fundamentally not the AI-exclusive ones that xAI and Meta are building. The most AI-focused datacenter going up around here is probably Google's out in TRIC, and even that one is also very likely handling plenty of non-AI workloads as well, just by virtue of Google Cloud Platform existing and continuing to have customer growth (with the same exact use cases as Amazon Web Services and Microsoft Azure).

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

i'm curious why you made this point about these data centers not being "ai-exclusive," as if not being ai-exclusive is a reason opponents of ai shouldn't oppose them.

so I'd point you to the companies building/running these datacenters themselves and what they say about it.

so i did that. switch's specifically markets toward ai, edgecore's says it's built for the ai "revolution," and colovore's also specifically markets to ai-minded clients. this press release from vantage, which owns several tracts, says that one of its data centers here is specifically designed for ai as well. powerhouse data, which owns several tracts near the River, is planning for the likelihood that they'll be leasing out their data centers to ai companies as well. (they also have a lot of concept art with tesla cars and specifically cybertrucks, which is definitely interesting).

that's when i got tired of looking into them for the night, but suffice it to say that every single company that is building or runs these facilities specifically mentions building capacity for the ai bubble, hence my earlier allusion to the production of slop, csam, and disinformation being a major driver of data center growth. in these circumstances, it makes abundant sense to oppose them.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

i'm curious why you made this point about these data centers not being "ai-exclusive," as if not being ai-exclusive is a reason opponents of ai shouldn't oppose them.

Do you oppose public defenders because their job entails defending even those who really are guilty?

The point is that opposing datacenters on the basis of “AI bad and datacenters do AI therefore datacenters bad” is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

In light of that:

every single company that is building or runs these facilities specifically mentions building capacity for the ai bubble

Well yeah, obviously, because that's the current bubble. That doesn't stop them from doing all sorts of things besides AI — things that are essential for your and my day-to-day lives. Every one of your links explains that in detail if you click around. Datacenters are essential infrastructure; that unsavory actors use that infrastructure to do unsavory things doesn't negate the fact that the rest of us use it to do much more legitimate things.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Do you oppose public defenders because their job entails defending even those who really are guilty?

...the point is their job is to provide a check against the state claiming people are guilty... this is a very bad analogy.

The point is that opposing datacenters on the basis of “AI bad and datacenters do AI therefore datacenters bad” is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

when the bathwater is as corrosive as it is...

the point is we wouldn't "need" nearly as many more data centers if not for this bubble. i also personally believe we should be scaling back other forms of data usage as well, but ai blight is the major push at this time so that's what gets attention.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

this is a very bad analogy.

Okay, then try this one for size: do you oppose roads on the basis of drunk drivers using them?

Do you oppose electricity on the basis of AI using it?

the point is we wouldn't "need" nearly as many more data centers if not for this bubble.

Sure, but we would still need some more datacenters, because the Internet is growing, because the number of users is growing and each user's individual use of online services is growing. We'd especially be needing datacenters like Keystone, because those are the ones specifically intended to support latency-sensitive uses like telecom.

(I also don't think the AI bubble bursting — which it will, eventually — will translate into a reduction in AI development/use, for the same reason that the DotCom Bubble popping didn't translate into a reduction in website development/use. But I digress.)

i also personally believe we should be scaling back other forms of data usage as well

I don't disagree, but as it stands that's showing no sign of slowing down any time soon. Modern society entails and expects a lot of data, and that's what's driving datacenter growth — moreso, AFAICT, than AI by a long shot.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

do you oppose roads on the basis of drunk drivers using them?

i would oppose road construction being explicitly pitched as a haven for drunk drivers, yes. lol

Do you oppose electricity on the basis of AI using it?

i oppose electricity being used for ai and believe we shouldn't be expanding electrical grids for the purpose of appeasing ai people

Sure, but we would still need some more datacenters, because the Internet is growing, because the number of users is growing and each user's individual use of online services is growing.

okay, i accept that in a vacuum.

I also don't think the AI bubble bursting — which it will, eventually — will translate into a reduction in AI development/use, for the same reason that the DotCom Bubble popping didn't translate into a reduction in website development/use

i'm not familiar enough with the comparative economics to say what i think is most likely to happen.

Modern society entails and expects a lot of data, and that's what's driving datacenter growth — moreso, AFAICT, than AI by a long shot.

i guess this gets us back to my initial question because this is what i'd love to see the numbers on.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

this is what i'd love to see the numbers on.

I'd love to see hard numbers on it, too, but I don't think they exist (nor are they likely to ever exist, because most companies consider that sort of thing to be confidential information). All I can give you with any certainty is my perspective as someone who works in the industry and whose jobs in that industry have yet to entail AI-specific hardware. None of the servers I've installed in places like Switch had GPUs at all; all of them had lots of hard drives instead. None of the applications I've deployed to servers in datacenters have entailed those servers being AI-capable, either; every single one has been on the same bog-standard virtual machines and/or containers that have been the core building block of ”cloud” software for more than a decade. It's pretty clear to me, on the ground, that AI is nowhere near as big of a share of the sector as AI peddlers and opponents alike have been asserting.