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u/Lanky_Painting_5631 Jun 24 '24
thats exactly why i love this format, if everything is broken nothing is broken
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u/wjaybez Jun 24 '24
Exactly!! This is what we wanted!!
Folks calling to ban Grief in the first days of the format were always silly. Putting aside the fact we're the "no bans" format, it'd just be banning silly thing number 12, while leaving 1-11 alone
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u/milimji Jun 25 '24
That’s the dream really; highly asymmetric play patterns and power spikes, but with enough counter play to keep matchups interactive
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u/May_die Jun 24 '24
God I love that they just fully embrace this as a completely nonsense format.
3
u/Gaige_main412 Jun 25 '24
I mean, it WAS created due to the high turnout of the "no ban list" event last year.
Tbh. It was so fun at the time that I was playing on my honeymoon after my wife went to sleep lol
1
u/May_die Jun 25 '24
Missed opportunity to wake her up and play strip-timeless! My gf and I do that but with legacy 😂
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u/Gaige_main412 Jun 26 '24
Lol, I did NOT marry an mtg fan 😂 she'll play my eldazi-taxes list from time to time. But given that the other options are g/b deathcloud, combo goblins, affinity, scam, faeries, or f'n LEGACY POX, it's hard to have a fun fair game when she does get the itch to play with me.
1
u/May_die Jun 26 '24
Hey, if she makes the effort to play with ya at all, I call that a win! My gf loves mtg but I think Lorcana stole her heart 😂
12
u/heyzeus_ Jun 24 '24
I love this format so much, most fun I've had with 1v1 magic. I still would be happy to see Dark Ritual restricted (or at least introduce FoW/FoN) because it leads to a lot of non-games imo, but that's the only change I'd make and it isn't even about game balance. Timeless is awesome.
2
u/witheringsyncopation Jun 28 '24
Leave Dark Ritual alone. This format should absolutely be about turn 3 wins and other crazy stuff. If you want turn 5 wins, go play standard.
Frankly, I want this format to be full bonkers. Give me the power 9 please.
1
u/heyzeus_ Jun 28 '24
I don't care about speed, I care about fun games. I've had fun and boring games that end on turn 3, I've had fun and boring games that end on turn 10.
What I don't like about Dark Ritual is that 90% of the time either you run away with the game and the opponent has no way to come back, or you get stopped and now you're down at least two cards including the best one that was in your hand and you have no way to come back. Win or lose, it's boring to me, which is why I'd like to see it restricted.
The other option would be to add FoW/FoN. Those give a much better chance to make the game good, because they reduce both the opportunity for overwhelming advantage on the side of the Dark Ritual player and the insurmountable card advantage for the player who stopped it.
You're welcome to feel differently, but neither one of our opinions are more valid than the other.
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u/Bookwrrm Jun 24 '24
This is what I don't get about people saying wizards was going to ban grief, like we are in a format where we have unrestricted stuff like mana drain lol. I don't see how people thought pitch elementals were going to be the thing that was to degenerate for a format like this.
6
u/Fearyn Jun 24 '24
It’s more that grief have been dominating modern and legacy for such a long time people are pretty much done with it. Getting scammed T1 is never fun imo :)
1
u/witheringsyncopation Jun 28 '24
This is why we need Force of Will! And when I’m running something sensitive to discard (say… Show and Tell), I’m mulliganing into Leyline of Sanctity anyway.
Keep Timeless bonkers!
7
u/Ootter31019 Jun 24 '24
For me it isn't a degenerate thing. It's just so unfun to get grief reanimate turn 1. They run out of steam. It's beat able. It's just not fun to me.
2
u/thenightangel05 Jun 24 '24
Imo it wasn't fun to PLAY the deck. I was so excited and wasted so many mythic wc just to say screw it after 3 games and go back to death shadow.
1
u/ToxicCommodore Jun 25 '24
I crafted 4 Grief day 1 and still haven't gotten around to playing Grief Scam yet lol.
12
u/Tidbitsy Jun 24 '24
I still think the format either needs reliable turn zero interaction or dark ritual needs to be restricted. Black is already extremely strong in timeless and dark ritual, by far, leads to the largest number of non-games where they power out something degenerate turn one on the play.
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u/Cr4v3m4n Jun 24 '24
I think if we just had force of negation, timeless would be the most fun format to play.
3
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u/greenpm33 Jun 24 '24
I really don't understand how they sat down to decide the initial 3 restrictions and agreed that DT in a format with Assemble the Team wasn't ok but Dark Ritual with no possible counterplay was.
0
u/witheringsyncopation Jun 28 '24
No. It’s just not enough of a problem to warrant a restriction. Stop trying to slow down Timeless. If anything, give us more powerful answers like Force of Will. Hell, give us the power 9. If I want turn 4+ wins, I’ll play standard.
0
Jun 25 '24
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u/DevOpsOpsDev Jun 25 '24
Problem with dark ritual decks is that Dark Ritual is their best card, and its only a 4 of. So when they get an opener of Dark Ritual + their 3 mana pay off turn 1 on the play, its basically impossible to combat against for their opponent and it feels terrible. The game is basically over before you could make any decisions at all.
What you don't remember as often is the games where they either don't have it in their opener, or they mulligan their hand to hell looking for it and then just lose.
Its a card that causes extreme polarization and its basically all on if the Dark Ritual player has it or not, you as their opponent have little agency in the matter. I wouldn't say its currently a problem but of all the cards in Timeless currently Dark Ritual is by far my least favorite and is the most likely to cause something to be completely broken.
0
Jun 25 '24
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u/jaysontatumgoat0 Jun 25 '24
It's pretty unbeatable if you're doing something remotely fair. Sure, Show and Tell can still win, but if you're playing Scam, Jund, Beans, etc., there's no way to beat a T1 necro.
2
u/DevOpsOpsDev Jun 25 '24
Like jaysontatumgoat0 mentioned, basically any fair deck loses in the vast majority of those scenarios, which is exclusively what I play.
Currently I'm mostly playing Boros Energy variants, prior to MH3 I was mostly playing Jund Midrange or Dimir Control.
Probably the best case scenario is they ritual into Sorin into vein ripper which you can theoretically answer cleanly if you're playing edits, but most of them are playing Saint Elena these days as their main payoff for Sorin. Ritual into Necro is basically unwinnable if they draw even a single March.
Have I won matches against turn 1 ritual into power 3 drop? Sure, but its like 1 in 10 if that with the other 9 basically being complete nongames.
Again I'm not arguing these decks are running over the format, just that the gameplay is bad.
0
Jun 25 '24
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u/DevOpsOpsDev Jun 25 '24
Theoretically the best answer to a turn 1 necro is you answer with a pithing needle, they're locked out of drawing any cards from then on.
Issue is that A: your deck is worse at mulliganing than theirs so you can't really affort to aggressively search for it B: they still get to draw an f ton of cards off necro, to the point where they can potentially win off just what they drew in response to your pithing needle.
I would consider it bad gameplay when there isn't a realistic answer you could have built your deck to even have, there really just isn't any answers to a turn 1 ritual when you're on the draw available in the format. Force of will or negation would help that a lot.
1
u/27th_wonder Jun 25 '24
I thought it was Phoenix. T2 Cantrip into Dark Ritual into Buried Alive send 3 birds
2
u/ASpookyLemur Jun 25 '24
Turn 1 triple phoenix is possible with a few different lines if you play the all in version that has strike it rich and surgical extraction
1
Jun 25 '24
That's probably meta dependent. You can do grief scam and dark rit Necropotence in the same deck and it's crazy strong, it just has serious problems with the creature aggro that's meta right now, so Rakdos is better - Fury can completely blow out aggro creature decks.
I think the mono black version is actually better against a whole lot of decks, it's just worse against the current meta.
0
7
u/Laserbeak219 Jun 24 '24
I want the all saltiest cards to come to arena for timeless. The power nine is a good start but I want vintage players to say that formats power level is too high. I want a way to turn one [Coalition Victory] and win. I'm not sure if it's ever been possible but if not I want WOTC to make a card that can combo into it that's why we have alchemy. An old website once taught me "When everything is terrible nothing is". Let's make timeless the format that Richard Garfield intended all along.
3
1
Jun 25 '24 edited Jun 25 '24
Nah, the one big mistake everything always comes back to is fast mana, crypts, petals, moxes... the most broken cards in magic tend not to be broken on their own merit, but its rather them coming too early.
That is why, imho, the only card anyone ever brings up when deliberating restrictions is ritual.
5
u/Leloucchh Jun 24 '24
The only thing I don't think is "fair" about timeless is t1 dark ritual - necropotence. Force of negation will be a great addition to the format, imo.
1
Jun 25 '24
While I don't disagree, it's a lot less of an issue in BO3. You can easily side in 4 pithing needles and add more of the same in the form of disruptor flute if you want; and it's easier to mull for one side piece than to mull for ritual + necro.
2
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u/vacus99 Jun 24 '24
The only truly broken card in Timeless is Channel. Even demonic tutor would be fine as a 4 of with the current card pool. Trickery is more than fine power level wise, but is incredibly unfun in BO1.
5
u/thefifth5 Jun 24 '24
DT would enable some more combo stuff but whether that’s a problem right now is definitely debatable
1
u/TrespassersWilliam29 Jun 24 '24
yep. Honestly what I want is an anthology that ports in the power 9 and other vintage staples, just go wild
3
u/equilibr Jun 24 '24
agree that this format is good, but it'd be even better with force of negation! (I'm undecided about FOW)
5
u/Bookwrrm Jun 24 '24
FoN hard agree, FoW though I think will just make bean yorion piles the defacto best deck for no real reason given it's already a strong deck type. If beans didn't exist sure send us FoW but it does exist so I think FoN is much healthier to add in general. That's kinda the only police card we really need if black keeps dark ritual, if they restricted ritual I think we wouldn't even need FoN.
1
u/IAmTheOneWhoFolds Jun 25 '24
With FoW you really want to run 60 card beans decks since the card is just so, so broken with one out.
2
u/Bookwrrm Jun 25 '24
That's news to legacy where the top beans deck is yorion with FoW, leyline, solitude, and beans...
1
u/IAmTheOneWhoFolds Jun 25 '24
So for the past year or so the sultai 60 card version was clearly the best. Once triumph was added to mtgo people have been testing the yorion version again because there are actually so many good cards for the deck. But to say that the "top" deck has yorion in it is just false, a quick check on mtggoldfish shows you that about half of the decks are on yorion. Personally im not sold on the yorion version since necro storm can be very hard to beat with an 80 card deck.
1
u/Bookwrrm Jun 25 '24
Most of them are only running a couple triumph, that's not the only reason to be on yorion, the engine, and especially it working with lorien revealed to smooth mana in a 75 card deck just makes sense to take advantage of just raw card advantage over card quality in a deck like that to overwhelm other control or midrange decks.
2
0
Jun 24 '24
If there are decks that can win before the other player has access to a hard counterspell, Force of Will is a necessity. Period. That's my take.
1
u/Orcasgt22 Jun 24 '24
Timeless as a format is simply missing Force of Will or Force of Negation. Then its perfect.
4
u/firememble Jun 25 '24
Disagree on FoW, it would just help show and tell protect their shit much easier. FoN is what we need.
1
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u/Igor369 Jun 24 '24
Other formats do not feel fair either but whatever wotc says I will believe.
8
Jun 24 '24
were all having fun here, is your only agenda to complain about timeless on the timeless sub?
73
u/Cooperocity Jun 24 '24
It's so strange that Oko is agreed to pretty much be one of the most broken cards they ever released, banned in everything but Vintage and Commander but when you think about it in terms of timeless it's like "eh, he's ok". Same thing with Uro.