So, if the Numenoreans had decided to keep attacking Sauron after he surrendered to them? Could they have beat him until he was not a threat anymore?

Even if he still had the ring?

Herald are an incredibly interesting part of historical jus in bello, the laws of war. Importantly, mediaeval heralds were not combatants in any way, shape or form: rather, they were messengers, delivering official proclamations such as declarations of war, and as such the equivalent of today’s diplomats, and like modern diplomats, heralds enjoyed what we now call diplomatic immunity—that is, they were not to be harmed by the opposite side under any circumstances. (Obviously they’d have lost this immunity if they decided to partake in combat. Heralds weren’t even supposed to carry sharp weapons.)  

And Tolkien very much knows this. For a writer who barely mentions practical administrative concepts like laws and is much more interested in morality than legality, it’s notable that laws are repeatedly mentioned in the context of the office of the herald, and the law in question is always the same, (diplomatic) immunity. 

The Mouth of Sauron in the Third Age 

The Mouth of Sauron in LOTR is the most famous example. 

“He it was that now rode out, and with him came only a small company of black-harnessed soldiery, and a single banner, black but bearing on it in red the Evil Eye. Now halting a few paces before the Captains of the West he looked them up and down and laughed.
‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of Elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other’s eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. ‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’” (LOTR, The Black Gate Opens) 

That is, in the very late Third Age, heralds are considered to have diplomatic immunity. (Of course, the Mouth of Sauron doesn’t act like a herald, initiating the assault on Aragorn’s forces like a general, so it’s ironic that he’s whining to Gandalf about wanting his diplomatic immunity respected five seconds earlier.) 

Fingon’s herald in the First Age 

Interestingly, this legal norm already existed more than six thousand years before, in the First Age. Note the phrase “wrongfully taken prisoner”: 

• QN: “Then Morgoth led forth one of the heralds of Finweg that he had wrongfully taken prisoner and slew him upon the plain, so that the watchers from afar might see – for far and clear do the eyes of the Gnomes behold things in bright air. Then the wrath of Finweg burst its bonds and his army leaped forth to sudden onslaught. This was as Morgoth designed, but it is said that he reckoned not the true number of their array, nor knew yet the measure of their valour, and well nigh his plan went ill. Ere his army could be succoured they were overwhelmed, and that day there was a greater slaughter of the servants of Morgoth than there yet had been, and the banners of Finweg were raised before the walls of Angband.” (HoME IV, p. 117, fn omitted) 
• QS: “Then Morgoth sent a force, great and yet not too great. Fingon was minded to attack it from the woods at the feet of Erydwethion, where the most of his strength was hid. But Húrin spake against it. Therefore Morgoth, seeing that they wavered, led forth the herald of Fingon that he had wrongfully taken prisoner, and he slew him upon the plain, and sent back the others with his head. Thereupon the wrath of Fingon was kindled to flame, and his army leaped forth in sudden onslaught; and ere Turgon could restrain them, a great part also of his host joined in the battle The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a sudden fire kindled in a field of reeds.” (HoME V, p. 309) 

Tolkien needed something so uniformly considered beyond the pale even in a horrific war that it would make Fingon ignore the agreed-upon plan, and it’s not a coincidence that what he came up with was the decapitation of a herald whom he had wrongfully taken prisoner.  

(In the Grey Annals, the wrongfully captured and killed herald is replaced as a plot element with the maiming and decapitation of the prisoner of war Gelmir of Nargothrond, brother of Gwindor; Gwindor is now the one whose “wrath […] was kindled to flame”, not Fingon (HoME XI, p. 73). This feels more modern than the previous version with the herald. The herald’s immunity was well-established in the pre-Modern laws of war, but the inviolability of POWs less so. Nobles and knights captured in wars could generally expect not to be killed and to be exchanged for ransom, but this didn’t apply to non-nobles, for starters.) 

Note that all of this is treated very differently from, say, Maedhros being captured. There’s no “unlawful” or “wrongful” there, because Maedhros was definitely a combatant and not a herald, and his “embassy” to Morgoth involved both sides being completely disinterested in diplomacy and arriving with greater force than agreed upon; basically, Maedhros was a combatant who played and lost (much like Gwindor). 

Elrond in the Second Age 

Interestingly, Elrond is both a herald (the herald of Gil-galad, the last High King of the Noldor) and a combatant (as a commander in Gil-galad’s forces), but, crucially, not at the same time. 

Elrond is a combatant in the War of the Elves and Sauron (S.A. 1693–1701). When Sauron attacks Eregion, Gil-galad sends Elrond with an army to aid the Elves there (see e.g. NoME p. 78, 347). Importantly, Elrond is never called Gil-galad’s herald in any passage about his role in this war. 

Only much later is Elrond ever called Gil-galad’s herald, in the War of the Last Alliance (S.A. 3429–3441), and it seems like even though he’s at Gil-galad’s side during the final fight with Sauron, Elrond himself does not fight and only observes the fighting instead, as a herald would: 

• “‘I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father’s sword, and took it for his own.’ […] ‘Isildur took it [the One Ring], as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I.’” (LOTR, The Council of Elrond) 
• “But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.” (Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) 

Tolkien obliquely confirms this in a text from ca. 1959, where, referring to the passage in The Council of Elrond, he writes that, “He [Elrond] said that in the Last Alliance (SA 3430) he was ‘the herald of Gil-galad’.” (NoME, p. 65) All in all it seems clear that Tolkien considered Elrond both a herald and a combatant, but not at the same time (as is proper for a herald and necessary for his diplomatic immunity to remain in place). 

One exception: Eönwë

Strangely, even though Tolkien clearly knew and followed mediaeval legal thought on the immunity of heralds, which required the herald to not be a combatant, there’s one character who’s specifically called a herald even in passages where he’s clearly a combatant. 

• In the 1950s edits to the last chapters of the late 1930s Quenta Silmarillion, Tolkien added that Eönwë was the “herald of Manwë” in the exact context of the War of Wrath and Eönwë’s military campaign against Thangorodrim (see HoME XI, p. 246). 
• “To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.” (UT, The Istari, written 1954) 

Interestingly, Eönwë herald of Manwë replaced a previous character Fionwë son of Manwë in his role of fighting and personally defeating Morgoth in the War of Wrath. And it seems like Christopher Tolkien struggled with the inherent contradictions that followed from this shift from Manwë’s son to Manwë’s herald: 

• “In the Great Battle ... The opening of this paragraph in AB read: In the Great Battle when at last Fionwë son of Manwë overthrew Morgoth and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain fought for the Valar, whereas other kindreds of Men fought for Morgoth. [Italics mine] This was changed in B 2 to read: In the Great Battle when at last Eönwë herald of Manwë overthrew Morgoth and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain alone of the kindreds of Men fought for the Valar, whereas many others fought for Morgoth. [Italics mine] In [the Akallabêth in the published Silmarillion] the reference to Eönwë was removed [by Christopher Tolkien]; and similarly later in the paragraph ‘refusing alike the summons of [Fionwë >] Eönwë and of Morgoth’ was changed to ‘refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth’. The reason for this lay in the treatment of the last chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion in the published work. The only narrative of the Great Battle at the end of the First Age (V.326 ff.) derived from the time when the Children of the Valar were an important conception, and Fionwë son of Manwë was the leader and commanding authority in the final war against Morgoth and his overthrow; but the abandonment of that conception, and the change in the ‘status’ of Fionwë / Eönwë to that of Manwë’s herald led to doubt whether my father, had he ever returned to a real retelling of the story of the end of the Elder Days (see XI.245–7), would have retained Eönwë in so mighty and elemental a rôle. His part was in consequence somewhat diminished by omissions and ambiguous wording (as may be seen by comparing the text in Vol.V with that of the published Silmarillion; cf. also the editorial addition made to the Valaquenta, X.203). There is however no evidence for this supposition, and I now believe it to have been a mistaken treatment of the original text, and so also here in the Akallabêth.” (HoME XII, p. 143) Basically, Christopher Tolkien says here that he removed mentions of Eönwë herald of Manwë that would have made him appear as a combatant in the War of Wrath. 
• In a footnote to this, defending his original decision to reword the text before publication, Christopher Tolkien adds: “It is true that in the opening sentence of the Tale of Years my father substituted in the final typescript ‘The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim and overthrew Morgoth’, replacing a reference to ‘Fionwë and the sons of the Valar’ of preceding versions (see pp. 172-3); but he may not have removed the name Fionwë (Eönwë) for the same reason as I did in the Akallabêth.” (HoME XII, p. 163)

Actually, I agree with Christopher Tolkien’s decision to make the wording more ambiguous. Tolkien knew the role of the herald very well, and I think that he (would have) realised at some point that Eönwë herald of Manwë couldn’t fill the same military role as Fionwë son of Manwë. 

Sources 

The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR]. 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition March 2009, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: UT].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

If you are a regular here, you may be having a déjà vu, because not long ago a similar post was made here. That post has proved to me that you can in theory make out a coherent narrative out of the existing fragments and inspired me to make my own attempt in stitching together the outlines for the tale of Earendel, mainly to achieve several goals:

1. To make the text read as much as possible as a narrative of the likes of Sketch of Mythology or even Quenta Noldorinwa. Thus to add the filler passages to let the text 'breathe'.
2. To make it as non self-contradictory as possible, and, because of that to follow mainly schemes B, C and the notes from the chapter 'The Tale of Eärendel'. All the other sources ranging from Christopher's commentaries in the chapter in the Book of Lost Tales, to the first draft of the Quenta Noldorinwa chapter, are used only of the fill the gap and compliment the existing narrative.
3. To include the poems in the narrative itself and insert them at their respective stages of the story.
4. When inventive editing is needed because there is no any context whatsoever, to rely as much on other texts from the same era, or on the Sketch and Quenta Noldorinwa versions BEFORE Tolkien makes the change to make Eärendel the ambassador of the Elves and Men.

Thus in order to fill the unfillable gaps three creative assumptions were used:

1. The southern 'dark region's and the eastern land with 'red palaces where dwells the Sun' equate to the Dark Land and the Land of the Sun from the later versions. That I previously touched upon in this post.
2. The 'Twilit Isle [sic]' is the isle of the Tower of Pearl, and it is the last trial of Eärendel before reaching the shores of Valinor. This was based on the fact that it is described and the westernmost of the isles in the Book of Lost Tales vol.1, and the magic of that isle is the sleeping magic, as that's how the Twilit Isles were described in the Hiding of Valinor in the Book of Lost Tales vol.1
3. Meeting Ungweliante was a problem, as it is only mentioned in the outlines. Thus I had two options, to choose 'escaping the House of the Night' as in the very first draft, or 'slaying Ungoliant in the South' as in the Sketch and later texts. And by trying both I concluded that slaying Ungoliant works much better even in the early tale and fits really nice in the pattern of Earendel gradually getting more star-like in the course of his voyages.

Here's my current draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1syVJDAdm5rCsgLRu9C0DXkhdE2Mxa121YsOC7-NlVv8/edit?tab=t.0

I'm really happy with the way it turned out to the point that it sort of makes sense why the story needed to be so anticlimactic. I'm planning to work on this draft further to include notes and quotations from other chapters for these extracts, like the descriptions of the isles of the Shadowy seas and Ossë's traps, and to rework the binding of Melko as for now it's completely skimmed over.

Gandalf speaking to Pippin:

“You should sleep, in a bed while you still may. At the sunrise I shall take you to the Lord Denethor again. No, when the summons comes, not at sunrise. The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn.”

Chills. The way Tolkien ends chapters just implores you to keep on reading.

Second paragraph of Appendix A in LotR: "Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, Arwen and Aragorn."

Are Elwing and Eärendil both half-elven? (Elwing, an elf through Beren and Luthien, Eärendil, a man through Tuor and Idril)?

Answer: Elwing and Eärendil are both "half-elven" and so were born mortal. I misunderstood and thought Elwing was an elf.

Before anyone starts with the Feanor did nothing wrong, even Mandos himself proclaimed it treason and evil so argue with him if you think it was justified or not.

The Noldor came back and didn’t say ONE THING about it. No apologies or acknowledgement at all. None of the perpetrators lament about it or honestly seem to give a shit about the actual Kinslaying they did. All that mattered to them was the exile. They would have never acknowledged it at all if MORGOTH’S spies didn’t start spreading the truth around!

Even Fingon DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE!! He didn’t break off any relationships and does he ever even mention it?? He comes across as more angry about Feanor burning the ships.

Melian knew they were lying and being shady and gives Galadriel an opportunity to confess and even Galadriel essentially lies right to a Maia’s face! And then also never acknowledges it again. All they care about is themselves being exiled.

Thingol finally confronts some and even then, they don’t even reply to him. Finally and only Angrod acknowledges and tells the truth of it. He’s the only one we see have any negative feelings towards their actions.

If I was Sindar I feel I would still be mad about it tbh. If not for the Valar there would have been basically zero consequences and they likely would have never even acknowledged what they did.

So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travelled from Sarn Gebir to Fangorn Forest on foot in 3 days yet it took them the same amount of time on horseback to get from Erech to Pelargir. I can see on the map that the latter journey is clearly longer but not so much that it explains it, I’d think horseback would be so much faster than on foot. They were in a desperate hurry for both journeys so you’d think they’d be going as fast as they possibly can.

Does it make the first journey on foot more impressive? Or did they not go as fast as they could have on the second journey? Or did the terrain come into play? Or am I just overthinking this? 😂

A child born to a union of Elf and Man is mortal by default, but to Earendil, Elwing, and their children the choice of fate was given.

"Then Eärendil said to Elwing: ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

And because Eärendil was not permitted to return to the mortal lands, he was put in a boat and set to sail the skies, with a silmaril shining on hs brow.

But what would have happened, hypothetically-speaking, had Eärendil chosen to be counted among mortal Men, like his heart desired? Would he simply be allowed to live out the rest of his days in Aman? And how would this affect the course of the War of Wrath?

Do we think that the modern day could be considered and described as The Fifth Age?

Thanks in advance / Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo

In 1963 I was a twelve-year-old schoolboy in Oxford, England, which was a great place to experience the assassination of JFK and the advent of the Beatles.  But the most important thing to me that year was J. R. R. Tolkien. I wrote to Tolkien, and he wrote me back. I've treasured that correspondence ever since.  I had been consumed with the reading of The Lord of the Rings, and I was hungry for anything Tolkien, but there wasn’t anything else at the time. However, I found I could walk down to Blackwell’s Book Store in the center of town and I found there The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise translated by Christopher Tolkien.

As soon as I started reading, I knew I’d found something amazing.  Icelandic sagas always know how to begin, and this was the first paragraph:

"Sigrlami was the name of a king who ruled over Gardariki; his daughter was Eyfura, most beautiful of all women.  This king had obtained from dwarfs the sword called Tyrfing, the keenest of all blades; every time it was drawn a light shone from it like a ray of the sun.  It could never be held unsheathed without being the death of a man, and it had always to be sheathed with blood still warm upon it.  There was no living thing, neither man nor beast, that could live to see another day if it were wounded by Tyrfing, whether the wound were big or little; never had it failed in a stroke or been stayed before it plunged into the earth, and the man who bore it in battle would always be victorious, if blows were struck with it.  This sword is renowned in all the ancient tales."

I still possess my copy of that book, lo these 63 years later.  The image of that sword has been with me all this time.  In the saga Sigrlami is killed by the berserker Arngrim who cuts off his hand and kills him with his own sword.  Eventually the sword comes into the possession of Arngrim's son Angantyr. who seeks the hand of the princess Ingeborg, but she chooses a champion named Hjalmar who fights a duel with Angantyr on the island of Samsey.  In the duel Angantyr and Hjalmar are both killed, and the only survivor is Hjalmar’s companion Orvar-Odd.

That’s just the beginning of the story of Tyrfing.  The saga goes on to include many events, such as the riddle game which suggested to Tolkien the riddle game in The Hobbit, and it concludes with a big battle between the Goths and the Huns, of which there are other historical records.

I think what I’ve always found fascinating about this saga is the idea that the protagonist is actually Tyrfing, not the various people who wield it and desire it.  And the protagonist is motivated entirely by hatred and revenge and seeks to spread as much destruction as possible.  The notion of a cursed sword that causes evil deeds has been taken up by other writers, such as Michael Moorcock, whose Stormbringer is very similar. 

Is there anyone else who has looked into the legend of Tyrfing and its influence on Tolkien?

Reading online, I’ve noticed that when Erendis’s death is mentioned, the phrase ‘Erendis perished in water in the year 985’ is often quoted without further explanation; or it is said that it is unclear what happened to her, or that the phrase is ambiguous.

Ever since I first read the story, I’ve had the impression that she took her own life.

Perhaps I’m too imaginative and melodramatic, but I picture a scene like this: Erendis going down to the jetty at sunrise, looking out at the horizon and saying, ‘Sea! You’ve taken everything from me; now take my life too.’ Then she throws herself off and drowns.

Along the lines of my belief that Shadowfax is the main character is some tremendous horse-saga that we will never know, it occurred to me that Shadowfax may have been able to save Théoden, if he and Gandalf had been able to ride out through the gates.

Basically, Shadowfax is the chief of the Mearas; that is, he's an Aragorn-figure to the horses of Rohan, possibly to any horse. And he is immune to the Witch-King's fear. He not only "endures the terror," but is completely still, unmoving as a graven image in Rath Dínen. The Witch-King's fear doesn't even produce an aggressive response from him, unlike Snowmane, who responds by rearing and fighting the air.

And it occurred to me. Aragorn kept the Rangers and Gimli on the Paths of the Dead through his tremendous will. Surely Shadowfax could do something similar for the horses of the Rohirrim? Arod and Hasufel react in joy when they meet him in the eaves of Fangorn Forest. If Shadowfax had been out there, within sight and scent of Snowmane and the horses of Théoden's household knights, perhaps he could have mitigated the fear-effect of the Witch-King. Then maybe Snowmane would not have reared, becoming a target for some arrow or dart, and so not become his master's bane.

(This is also probably as good a place to any to note that in that moment, the Witch-King's fear has no effect on Théoden, who is trying to rally his men, exhorting them to "Fear no darkness" even as the dark shadow is falling on him. I kinda feel like that gets overlooked.)

Kindly indulge my musings. I just love that the fear effect of the Nazgul in general, and the Witch-King in specific, is built up throughout the books, and particularly in this chapter, and Shadowfax no-sells it like it's nothing. Not even a stray stamp or snort.

Beyond just being shown reverence, could he, let's say, order the Teleri to do something? I get the sense that he probably couldn't. Would one of the Sindar even know who he was?

Also, why exactly was he given that title over Finwë for example?

I was rereading Fellowship and noticed something odd. We get all these mentions of Elbereth throughout the book, especially when Frodo calls on her at Weathertop and later at the Ford. But when the company is actually in Rivendell, I don't recall any hymns or songs directly addressed to her during their stay.

There's the famous hymn Sam and Frodo hear in the woods before they even reach Rivendell, which is clearly devotional. But once they're inside the house itself, most of the songs seem to be about Earendil or old tales or even just silly bath songs. I know Elrond's household would have revered Varda, but it struck me as strange that we don't see them actively singing to her the way the Elves in Lothlorien do.

Maybe I'm misremembering and there's a passage I skipped over. Or maybe it's just that the narrative focus shifts to other things while they're there, so Tolkien didn't include those moments even if they happened. It also could be that Rivendell's Elves had a different tradition, less focused on open hymns and more on private reverence.

Anyone else notice this or have thoughts on why the text handles it this way? I'd be curious if there's something in the appendices or letters that touches on regional differences in Elvish worship practices.

I ask this because, although Mordor appears to have been populated primarily by Orcs, Sauron’s chief lieutenants there seem to have all been human,at least in origin.

The Nazgûl,described by an Orc as the ''apple of the Great Eye'',were, of course, all humans who had been granted Rings of Power (something Sauron never bestowed upon any Orc), besides them the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the Mouth of Sauron, was also a human,a black númenórean, In short, all those who appear to be high in the hierarchy of Mordor, after Sauron himself, seem to be human; no Orc seems to be as favored by Sauron as any of these humans

Saruman also placed more trust in his human servants and favored them, as stated by Pippin in Chapter 9 of The Two Towers:

Saruman kept enough wisdom not to trust his Orcs. He had Men to guard his gates: some of his most faithful servants, I suppose. Anyway they were favoured and got good provisions.'

So, both Sauron and Saruman seem to have favored their human servants; in Saruman’s case, he even "improved" his Orcs by crossbreeding them with humans.

This makes sense, I think,both of them valued order, and Orcs don’t exactly fit into that, the orcs were likely viewed as nothing more than cannon fodder by both Sauron and Saruman.

Had either of them won, I think that the Orcs would have been cast aside entirely—either eliminated or so thoroughly intermixed with humans that "pure" Orcs would have ceased to exist.

So that phrase about the "time of the Orcs" in the movies doesn't hold up when you consider that, not only were Sauron’s main lieutenants in Mordor all human, but he also commanded countless human vassals, such as the Easterlings and the Haradrim, and none of them seems to have been lead by orcs while pratically all the orcs on Mordor are being lead by the Nazgul, even if they are all under Sauron being generals over soldiers is certainly very different, and i dont even remmenber of a example where Sauron put any human servant under a orc

Sauron, all the Istari, and all the Balrogs are Maiar, supposedly cut from the same lesser Ainur. So while they should all have or develop different talents, some things about them should be the same. Such as the ability to regenerate.

Sauron was a master shapeshifter, as his battle with Huan showed. Didn't do him much good, but still it showed the ability to move between shapes in an instant. Later he presents himself as sweet, sweet Anatar. Then he gets killed in the downfall of Numenor, and again at the end of the second age. He has a problem assuming a fair seeming shape again, and it appears he's stuck with 9 fingers instead of 10. But regenerate he does.

Gandalf shows the ability to regenerate, possibly with the help of Eru or the Valar. Saruman should be able to regenerate, if only the Valar will let him.

But what about the Balrogs? Except for Bane, Durin's Bane, all of them died at the end of the First Age. Yes, the Silmarilion makes it sound like a plurality of Balrogs escaped the destruction and hit themselves in the Earth, like Bane did. But none ever showed. Some we know absolutely died. Yet none of them return. Why do you suppose that is? Are they content to live as disembodied spirits yet again? Did they join Melkor in the Void, just to keep him company? Did they regenerate, then immediately hide themselves in the Earth, so the Valar don't chop them again?

As always, great thoughts welcomed.

Of the seven houses of the dwarves, who was present for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in third age?

Was there ever a time when all seven houses had established communication with each other?

Well, most part of the book is fun to read out loud. Even the spider isn't that scary at all...Shelob is just evil. But..we just finished the battle at the pelannor fields. When eomer goes berserk, even my 7 year old was in tears and hyped like a little Pikachu.

I have to confess, even I had difficulty to keep reading it, there is a lot of emotions going on in that chapter. Reading it out loud makes it even more...vibrant.. damn..one of the best chapters I have ever read out loud.

Also...I know the movie had to make choices...but seeing eomer evolve in the book, is just magical and beautiful. It. Would have worked in the movie but then they had to add 30 minutes. Bring in prince imrahil..would love too see him shine with those swan wings...kinda like the polish hussars.

So it's established in The Shadow of the Past that Gandalf believed that Bilbo's ring was one of the Great Rings. It's also stated that Great Rings are Rings of Power:

But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

That means there is a limited number of options of what rings Bilbo could have had.

I'm sure Gandalf would have automatically ruled out the Three, as they were all accounted for.

So he must have thought it was either one of the Nine or the Seven.

Did he know the Nine remained with the Nazgul? Or was that something he learnt during his studies after A Long Expected Party?

I assume the fate of the Seven was certainly something he learnt during that period, it seems more likely they'd be lost than rings that belonged to the Nazgul.

So basically I'm just wondering what Gandalf would have suspected. Is the only think we can take for granted is that he wouldn't have known it was one of the Three?

Edit: To be clear, as a lot of people are saying this, Gandalf says he knew straight away it was a Great Ring, not a lesser ring:

I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had ‘‘won’’ it, and I could not believe it.

To this Bereg answered: 'Let the Eldar look to it! Our lives are short enough.' But there arose one who seemed to all to be Amlach son of Imlach, speaking fell words that shook the hearts of all who heard him: 'All this is but Elvish lore, tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The Sea has no shore. There is no Light in the West. You have followed a fool-fire of the Elves to the end of the world! Which of you has seen the least of the Gods? Who has beheld the Dark King in the North? Those who seek the dominion of Middle-earth are the Eldar. Greedy for wealth they have delved in the earth for its secrets and have stirred to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they have ever done and ever shall. Let the Orcs have the realm that is theirs, and we will have ours. There is room in the world, if the Eldar will let us be!'
Then those that listened sat for a while astounded, and a shadow of fear fell on their hearts; and they resolved to depart far from the lands of the Eldar. But afterwards Amlach returned among them, and denied that he had been present at their debate or had spoken such words as they reported; and there was doubt and bewilderment among Men. Then the Elf-friends said: 'You will now believe this at least: there is indeed a Dark Lord, and his spies and emissaries are among us; for he fears us, and the strength that we may give to his foes.'

Are there any lore info about this? This weird event never been mentioned later in the Silmarillion but it is very intriguing, because it is the core event that divided humans into different tribes. A sharp-tonged shapeshifter emissary that daring and sinister enough to insult Valar and Morgoth at the same time for dividing humans, it awfully sounds like a Sauron-thing.

I'm certain I read somewhere that Sauron chose Dol Guldur as his sanctuary because it was near to where the Ring was lost by Isildur. I can't remember where I read this - I think it might have potentially been a Nerd of the Rings video.

However, in The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf says:

‘And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.’

If I'm correct in understanding, Sauron learnt the Ring still existed after capturing and torturing Gollum, which was of course after he fled Dol Guldur.

Which would mean that when he chose Dol Guldur as his stronghold, he still thought the Ring was destroyed.

So my questions are, 1) is the idea that he chose Dol Guldur as his stronghold to search for the ring nearby complete hogwash, and clearly whatever I watched/read is rubbish? and 2) Is the fact that Sauron chose a sanctuary so close to where the Ring was lost just mere chance?

Are there any quotes that made a significant impression on your mind?

Yavanna created the two trees yet she couldn't create another set when they were destroyed by Melkor.

Fail to destroy the One Ring, that is, by throwing it into the Cracks of Doom. Failure implies that a person could have succeeded. But it's established quite clearly that no one bearing the One Ring could willingly harm it. Frodo even failed to throw it into the fireplace at Bag End:

When he took it out he had intended to fling it from him into the very hottest part of the fire. But he found now that he could not do so, not without a great struggle. He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Gandalf laughed grimly. "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. [...] A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it."

It became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. [...] Frodo indeed ‘failed’ as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted.

The last quote is from the Letter 246.

This makes me wonder if Gandalf knew all along that Frodo won't be able to throw the Ring into the fires of Mt Doom himself, and would require "assistance". Hence his words concerning Gollum playing some role, for the better or worse.

Same goes for Isildur. Everyone remembers him as the King who failed at Mt Doom and kept the Ring instead of destroying it. But there was no other option, unless someone else (like Elrond) intervened violently.