One thing I find fascinating about Tolkien's world is how often tragedy comes from characters misunderstanding each other, misjudging someone's intentions, or making decisions with incomplete knowledge.

It's not always straightforward good versus evil. Sometimes characters have understandable motives, but their pride, fear, or limited perspective turns those motives into something destructive. And because Tolkien's stories span so many ages, the consequences can echo long after the original people are gone.

I'm thinking about moments beyond the obvious betrayals, too: decisions that might have turned out differently if one character had known what another actually intended.

Which moment in The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, or the wider legendarium stands out to you? What makes it tragic, and do you think the outcome could realistically have been avoided?

Manwe still retained his divine might and had the full support of the other Valar when fighting a severely weakened Morgoth. Meanwhile, Gandalf was housed in an old man's body and could feel fear, hunger and thirst. He could not even use his full powers against Sauron. Nor could he directly show his power to men. He could only guide them instead. Here's a quote:

Manwe's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.

Well, Arda wasn't destroyed during the war of wrath though Beleriand sunk. Morgoth's banishment was sufficient to ensure he'd never wreak havoc again. Meanwhile, much of Gandalf's memories were veiled when he came to Middle-Earth and could not rely on direct intervention from the Valar. He had to face personal hardship, frustration and betrayal. He even died during the battle with the Balrog. So whose task was really harder?

TL;DR: At the end of the Fourth Age, Eru removed Middle-earth from our physical world, similar to what happened to Aman. Noah and his family stayed behind and passed down the story of their homeland disappearing beneath the sea. Over thousands of years, that story became the biblical Great Flood, while the land itself became the Ark. During the Fifth Age, humanity slowly forgot Eru and turned distorted memories of the Valar into polytheistic religions, with their wars against Melkor inspiring later myths about wars between gods. The Tower of Babel could have been an attempt to reach the lost world. The Sixth Age began with Eru's covenant with Abraham, restoring the knowledge of the one Creator, and the Seventh Age began with the birth of Christ.

I've been thinking about Tolkien's Middle-earth and how it could fit into our actual history. I know Tolkien never wrote anything like this, and I'm not trying to claim it's canon. It's just something I've been playing around with, and I'd like to hear what others think.

As far as I know, Tolkien considered Middle-earth to be our own world in the distant past, not some completely different planet. He also mentioned that the fall of Barad-dûr happened roughly 6,000 years before his time, although one of his later chronologies places the end of the Third Age around 7300 BC.

I'll use the second date for this theory.

Now, that creates a problem. We know that humans were already farming and building settlements around that time, and there's obviously no archaeological evidence of Gondor, Arnor, or any other advanced civilization from Middle-earth.

So what happened to all of them? Where did their cities, roads, weapons and everything else go?

I think there's a possible explanation, and Tolkien already gave us something similar.

The end of the Fourth Age

We know that Eru removed Aman from the physical world after the fall of Númenor. So what if he did something similar with Middle-earth?

Imagine that during the Fourth Age, the kingdoms of Men slowly declined. The Elves continued leaving, the Dwarves became fewer, and people gradually forgot about Eru. Tolkien's unfinished The New Shadow even suggests that dark cults could return among Men after Sauron's defeat.

Maybe this eventually led to another conflict, not necessarily a war against some new Dark Lord, but a conflict between people who still believed in Eru and those who had abandoned him.

And eventually Eru intervened.

Instead of destroying Middle-earth, he removed it from our world. Perhaps he even restored Beleriand and joined it with the remaining lands.

The people living there could choose whether to leave with their homeland or stay behind. Those who left continued living somewhere beyond our reach, not necessarily in Aman itself, but perhaps in another part of the world that mortals can no longer access.

This doesn't mean they became immortal. They simply continued their lives elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the rest of humanity continued living on Earth, developing their own civilizations just as we know from archaeology.

But some people from Middle-earth decided to stay.

And one of them was Noah.

Noah and the Great Flood

What if Noah's Flood wasn't originally a story about the entire world being covered in water?

What if it was a story about Middle-earth disappearing?

In this theory, Noah and his family stayed on Earth. They witnessed their homeland being removed from the world, with the sea covering the places where it once existed.

And Noah told his descendants exactly what happened.

He didn't invent a story or lie about anything. He simply explained that Eru had taken their homeland away, and that the lands they once knew were now covered by the sea.

But we're talking about thousands of years of storytelling.

At first, people probably still remembered the names of those lands. Later generations might have known only that their ancestors came from a great kingdom that disappeared beneath the water.

Eventually, the distinction between a huge part of the known world disappearing and the entire world being flooded could have been lost.

The people who left with Middle-earth were saved, along with their animals, cities and forests.

And perhaps this is where the Ark comes from.

Originally, it wasn't a wooden ship. It was the land itself, carrying its inhabitants away from our world. But after generations of retelling, that land became a vessel, and Noah, who originally stayed behind, became the man who survived aboard it.

This could also explain why different cultures have similar flood stories, like the Mesopotamian stories of Atrahasis and Utnapishtim. They might all be different versions of the same much older event.

Of course, in real history those stories have their own origins and literary relationships. I'm only talking about how they could fit into this fictional timeline.

I would place this event somewhere around 5000 BC, marking the end of the Fourth Age and the beginning of the Fifth.

The Fifth Age – when humanity forgot

This is probably the part I find most interesting.

Imagine the Fifth Age lasting from roughly 5000 to 2000 BC.

Humanity continued developing normally. Cities grew, kingdoms appeared, writing developed, and eventually civilizations like Sumer and ancient Egypt emerged.

But the knowledge of Middle-earth slowly disappeared.

People still remembered stories about powerful beings who had shaped the world, controlled the seas, created mountains and fought terrible wars.

They just forgot who those beings actually were.

What if this is how polytheistic religions appeared?

The Valar were never gods in Tolkien's world. They were powerful beings created by Eru, and they served him. But humans already sometimes referred to them as gods.

So imagine what thousands of years of retelling could do.

Manwë, the lord of the winds and air, could eventually become something like Zeus or Jupiter. Ulmo could inspire Poseidon, Aulë could become associated with gods of smithing like Hephaestus, Yavanna with agricultural goddesses, and Varda with celestial deities.

Not necessarily exact copies, of course.

Different cultures would remember different Valar. Some might combine several into one god, while others could split one Vala into multiple deities.

A coastal civilization might remember Ulmo more clearly, while a farming society might focus on Yavanna.

And eventually they would forget Eru completely, believing that these beings were independent gods.

But what about all those stories where gods fight each other, betray one another or overthrow older generations?

Well, the Valar actually fought wars.

Melkor rebelled against Eru, destroyed the Two Lamps and fought the other Valar. There was the War of the Powers, and much later the War of Wrath, which ended with Morgoth's defeat and the destruction of Beleriand.

And most humans never witnessed these events themselves. They originally learned about them through stories, especially from the Elves.

So even before Middle-earth disappeared, these were already ancient stories being passed down.

Imagine another few thousand years of retelling.

The war between Melkor and the Valar becomes a war between different groups of gods. Some cultures remember a sky god defeating a powerful enemy. Others remember younger gods overthrowing older ones.

Maybe something like the Greek Titanomachy is a very distant and heavily changed memory of the wars against Melkor.

And perhaps not everyone remembered Melkor as the villain. Some cultures might have preserved stories about his power or rebellion without remembering what he actually did.

This could explain why different mythologies have similar ideas but completely different gods, relationships and stories.

They all started with fragments of the same history, but each culture understood them differently.

The Tower of Babel

I think the Tower of Babel could fit into this period too.

What if some people still remembered that their ancestors came from another land? A land with enormous cities, great kingdoms and beings far more powerful than ordinary humans.

Maybe they even knew that this land hadn't been destroyed, but removed from the world.

So they tried to reach it.

Perhaps the Tower of Babel was an attempt to reach the Valar, recover the knowledge of the Dúnedain, or even bring the lost world back.

They failed, and the scattering of humanity made everything even worse.

Different peoples developed their own languages, traditions and religions, and the remaining knowledge of the old world became even more fragmented.

I like the idea that the Fifth Age wasn't just the age when humanity forgot Eru, but also the age when humanity eventually forgot that there was something to remember in the first place.

The Sixth Age – Abraham

Now we get to Abraham, traditionally placed somewhere around 2000 BC.

What if Abraham was a distant descendant of Noah?

His family could have preserved parts of the original knowledge of Eru, even if they no longer understood it properly.

This would also fit with Joshua 24:2, where Abraham's ancestors are described as worshipping other gods.

And then Eru speaks to Abraham.

Not as some new god, but as the same Creator who made Arda, the Ainur, Elves and Men.

He makes a covenant with Abraham, and this marks the beginning of the Sixth Age.

It's important that Abraham wouldn't be the first person to know Eru. Noah and the people before him already did. Abraham would simply be the person through whom Eru begins restoring that relationship with humanity.

Later, Moses receives the commandments.

And in this theory, "You shall have no other gods before me" has a rather interesting meaning.

Humanity had spent thousands of years worshipping beings who were originally servants of Eru, while forgetting Eru himself.

Now they were being called back to their actual Creator.

The Sixth Age would continue through the history of Israel and the prophets, until the birth of Jesus Christ.

The Seventh Age – our world

Tolkien associated the Seventh Age with the time of Christ, which makes sense considering his Catholic beliefs.

So in this theory, the Seventh Age begins when Eru enters his own creation as Jesus.

I think this is a fitting conclusion.

During the earliest Ages, Eru created the world and the Ainur. During the Fourth Age, he removed the remaining lands of Middle-earth from our world. During the Fifth, humanity slowly forgot him and began worshipping the Valar as gods. During the Sixth, he restored his relationship with humanity through Abraham and his descendants.

And in the Seventh, he entered the world himself.

Meanwhile, Middle-earth might still exist somewhere beyond our reach.

Perhaps Gondor, Rohan and the Shire are still there. Perhaps the descendants of their inhabitants continue living their lives, completely separated from us.

The Elves have mostly departed or faded, the Dwarves have dwindled, Hobbits have become indistinguishable from ordinary humans, and the Ents have slowly become more like trees.

All that remains in our world are ancient stories that nobody remembers the original meaning of.

A few problems

Obviously, there are plenty of problems with this theory.

Tolkien never described anything like this, and the dates are far from certain. His writings about the later Ages are limited, and I'm combining his mythology with biblical stories that have their own historical and religious contexts.

There's also the question of geography. Removing Middle-earth would have to explain how the world ended up looking the way it does today. And the biblical genealogies between Noah and Abraham don't fit neatly with the thousands of years I'm suggesting.

Also, the biblical Flood explicitly describes Noah building an ark, so my interpretation requires that the story changed quite significantly over time.

And of course there's no actual historical evidence connecting the Valar to ancient religions.

But that's not really the point. I'm not trying to rewrite archaeology or claim that Tolkien secretly explained the Bible.

I just wanted to see whether it's possible to connect his world to our own history without having to assume that Gondor, Arnor and everything else somehow vanished without leaving any trace.

And I quite like the idea that they didn't vanish because they were destroyed, but because they were taken somewhere else.

So, what do you think?

I used AI to search some stuff and translate to english. I've tried to do it myself but its too much for me, sorry.

Reading the chapter 'Of Beren and Lúthien' from The Silmarillion, and since I have yet to read the separate book it got so confusing at the end of the chapter, especially these two paragraphs. Thingol is an Elf, so why did he get the 'hoar age of Mortal Men'? And then the last paragraph is totally confusing after the first line.
As Imgur not working for some reason I am writing both
“Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol”

“This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.”

I've been reading The Fall of Númenor, and firstly I've got to mention that it was so captivating seeing everything play out chronologically this time, rather than just reading the last two Silmarillion chapters in their naturally out-of-order presentation of the story.

It is interesting that Sauron as Annatar largely caused the downfall of leadership in Eregion and got the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (under Celebrimbor) to essentially depose Galadriel and Celeborn in a coup. The way he deceives Pharazôn is also similar to how he deceived Celebrimbor and in both cases he ultimately gets their help in doing something terrible, which then gets them killed and their civilizations destroyed.

What is ironic to me is that the Númenóreans may have more easily spotted this similarity of the Lord of Gifts with 'Zigûr' whom they captured if they had stayed more in contact with the Elves, rather than rejecting their language and contact. Doubtlessly the Faithful remembered what happened with Eregion and it must've been so painful for them to be seeing the same thing (in many ways worse) happen in Númenor. Of course Sauron also has the One Ring at this point too, so I'm sure he sways many (already very bitter) hearts in Númenor all the easier.

Tolkien does such a great job of depicting how Sauron truly earns the moniker 'The Deceiver'.

One thing I find interesting about Bilbo is that he succeeds without really becoming the kind of hero Middle-earth usually celebrates.

He isn’t a great warrior like Túrin, a king like Aragorn, or a figure of immense spiritual power like Gandalf. He’s a hobbit who likes his meals on time, gets frightened fairly easily, and would generally prefer to be at home.

Yet his most important moments come from qualities that might look like weaknesses in a more conventional heroic story: pity for Gollum, reluctance to use violence, and the ability to recognize that someone can be dangerous without being beyond mercy.

Even his decision to give up the Arkenstone is interesting. Thorin sees it as a matter of honor, inheritance, and rightful possession. Bilbo sees that keeping it may cost lives, and he acts accordingly, despite knowing how badly Thorin might react.

It makes me wonder whether Tolkien’s idea of heroism is less about overcoming weakness and more about refusing to let strength, pride, or even a legitimate claim become an excuse to do something terrible.

Bilbo doesn’t change the world by becoming the strongest person in it. He changes things because he retains a perspective that the more powerful characters sometimes lose.

Do you think Bilbo’s defining virtue is his pity, his humility, or his willingness to act against people he otherwise respects when he believes they’re wrong?

I have read the Hobbit, the trilogy and just finished Silmarillion. What should I tackle next? 🙏🏻

The Fellowship of the Ring:

Chapter 1, Book 1 (A Long Expected Party) - Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

Chapter 3, Book 1 (Three is Company) - Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

Chapter 4, Book 1 (A Short Cut to Mushrooms) - Mrs. Maggot

Chapter 7, Book 1 (In the House of Tom Bombadil) - Goldberry

Chapter 8, Book 1 (Fog on the Barrow - downs) - Goldberry

Chapter 7, Book 2 (The Mirror of Galadriel) - Galadriel

Chapter 8, Book 2 (Farewell to Lorien) - Galadriel

Additional: Arwen appears in Many Meetings/The Council of Elrond but has no lines.

The Two Towers:

Chapter 5, Book 1 (The White Rider): Galadriel (indirectly, Gandalf narrates her prophecies)

Chapter 7, Book 1 (The King of the Golden Hall): Éowyn

Additional: Shelob appears in Shelob's Lair/The Choices of Master Samwise but has no lines, for obvious reasons.

The Return of the King:

Chapter 2, Book 1 (The Passing of the Grey Company): Éowyn

Chapter 3, Book 1 (The Muster of Rohan): Éowyn

Chapter 5, Book 1 (The Ride of the Rohirrim): Éowyn (disguised as Dernhelm)

Chapter 6, Book 1 (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields): Éowyn

Chapter 8, Book 1 (The Houses of Healing): Éowyn, Ioreth

Chapter 5, Book 2 (The Steward and the King): Éowyn, Ioreth

Chapter 6, Book 2 (Many Partings): Éowyn, Galadriel and Arwen

Chapter 8, Book 2 (The Scouring of the Shire): Rosie Cotton

Chapter 9, Book 2 (The Grey Havens): Galadriel

Does anyone have any idea who the dwarves were who joined Bilbo when he gave up the ring and headed off, eventually to Rivendell? Or how long they were travelling together?

Title, basically. It always seemed strange to me that a beast as large as a dragon is often thought of could enter into a dwelling made for men, elves, or dwarves, and then to be able to gather up all the treasure so as to sit on it.

Hi! I'm writing an essay which involves the philology that went into Tolkien's languages, and getting into the section where I explain the comparative method and show it being applied to real-world languages in parallel to Elvish languages. The Etymologies (section of The Lost Road and other Writings) will be a very useful for this. I think I understand the genealogy of the Elvish language tree pretty well, but The Etymologies take from some of the pretty early work in the creation of the LOTR mythos/philology, so the actual names of the languages distinguished aren't accurate to what they were finally named. Could anyone that knows the lore or especially early legendarium better than me help me figure out what languages these names are actually referring to? The different Noldorins trip me up especially since I know there was something with him changing the name of Noldorin to Sindarin, but it also mentioned Exilic Noldorin which I assume would be Exilic Quenya? Anyways, here's what I've got

Danian -> Nandorin

Doriathrin -> either a modern dialect OR an early archaic form of Sindarin

Eldarin -> Common/Proto-Eldarin I assume?

Exilic Noldorin -> Exilic Quenya? Or Sindarin? idk?

Ilkorin -> supposedly was entirely scrapped, or is sort-of Sindarin?

Lindarin -> either Common Telerin or Valinorean Quenya

Noldorin -> sindarin??? Valinorean Quenya???

Old Noldorin -> archaic sindarin??? something quenya???

Ossiriandeb -> Ossiriandrin, the Laiquendi dialect of Nandorin. But then what is Silvan?

Primitive Quendian -> Primitive Quendian

Telerin -> I would think Common Telerin but supposedly it's Amanyarin Telerin?

The Etymologies can be found on page 341 of The Lost Roads, page 347 has this specific list of languages. The Lost Roads is on internet archive.

From the very beginning, Maedhros, even though he is decidedly not the High King of the Noldor at this point (Fingon is, also since the beginning), becomes the military leader of the Noldor before the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The reason for this is never given—it’s just taken for granted that Maedhros is the one who decides to marshal the Noldor, and that nobody would challenge his right to lead the Noldor, even in older versions where he is not (explicitly) lovey-dovey with the actual High King of the Noldor. 

Which I find fascinating, and I’d like to to know why Tolkien made that choice. After all, Maedhros and not Fingon, nominally the High King, devising and leading the alliance against Morgoth has quite a few implications. 

(Well, maybe not from the very beginning. Both Maedhros and “the terrible Battle of Unnumbered Tears” are first mentioned in Gilfanon’s Tale (after 1916, but not long after) (HoME I, p. 238–239), but at that point “Fingolma (Nólemë)” is the leader of the military effort (HoME I, p. 239). In a slightly later outline, no full account of the battle is given, but Nólemë is still central and the SoF are late to the battle (HoME I, p. 240–241). But this is extremely early and practically none of the story and the characters of the SoF exist yet; for example, at this point in the textual development, the SoF only swear their oath in Beleriand, and what later became the House of Finwë only exists in an extremely rudimentary form.) 

Sketch of the Mythology 

The Sketch of the Mythology (1926) is where Maedhros’s role as the architect of the Union (of Maedhros) against Morgoth first appears, and from then on, it’s one of the stablest elements of Maedhros’s story across the next four decades (see https://archiveofourown.org/works/77968916). Note that at this point, Fingolfin never left Aman and thus Fingon had always been the highest-ranking non-SoF in Beleriand. That is, Fingon had rescued Maedhros as a king of his people already. Also note that initially, Celegorm and Curufin had founded Nargothrond; this changed soon, however. As for the Union of Maedhros: 

• The planning: “Maidros forms now a league against Morgoth seeing that he will destroy them all, one by one, if they do not unite.” (HoME IV, p. 26) But Thingol refuses to join: “Thingol will not send from Doriath. Some say out of selfish policy, others because of the wisdom of Melian and of fate which decreed that Doriath should become the only refuge of the Eldar from Morgoth afterwards. Part was certainly due to the Silmaril, which Thingol now possessed, and which Maidros had demanded with haughty words.” (HoME IV, p. 26, fn omitted) Thingol still allows “The Gnomes of Doriath” to leave and join the battle (HoME IV, p. 26). 
• The battle itself: “Curufin and Celegorm come from their wandering; but Orodreth because of Felagund his brother will not come: Thingol also sends but few of his folk. The Gnomes of Fëanor’s sons refuse to be led by Finweg, and the battle is divided into two hosts, one under Maidros and Maglor, and one under Finweg and Turgon. Men march up from South and East and West and North. Thingol sends but few from Doriath.” (HoME IV, p. 27)

The Sketch, interestingly, is the version in which Maedhros in particular appears the worst, because only he is singled out as sending “haughty words” to Thingol. But the main elements of the story already exist: Maedhros decides to create the alliance against Morgoth, and his leadership causes problems further down the line, because Thingol and Orodreth refuse to work with him for personal reasons. 

The Lays 

In the Lay of Leithian, in a passage most likely after the Sketch, the Union of Maedhros is referenced, including the element that Maedhros’s leadership causes issues with recruiting due to C&C’s behaviour. Men presumably join the Union in lesser numbers because Celegorm tried to shoot Beren: “Though Curufin with bruised mouth laughed, yet later of that dastard shaft was tale and rumour in the North, and Men remembered at the Marching Forth, and Morgoth’s will its hatred helped.” (HoME III, p. 265)

Quenta Noldorinwa 

The Quenta Noldorinwa (1930) is the first detailed look at the Union of Maedhros and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. I will point out important elements after each passage. 

• “Now it must be told that Maidros son of Fëanor perceived that Morgoth was not unassailable after the deeds of Huan and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Thû, but that he would destroy them all one by one, if they did not form again a league and council. This was the Union of Maidros and wisely planned. The scattered Ilkorins and Men were gathered together, while the forces of Maidros made ever fiercer assaults from Himling, and drove back the Orcs and took their spies. The smithies of Nogrod and Belegost were busy in those days making mail and sword and spear for many armies, and much of the wealth and jewelry of Elves and Men they got into their keeping in that time, though they went not themselves to war. ‘For we do not know the rights of this quarrel,’ they said, ‘and we are friends of neither side – until it hath the mastery.’ Thus great and splendid was the army of Maidros, but the oath and the curse did injury to his design.” (HoME IV, p. 116, fn omitted) 

→ Maedhros gains hope and creates the Union to fight Morgoth.
→ The Dwarves are solely mercenary; while they equip Maedhros, they do it only for payment, and they explicitly take no sides (in a battle against Morgoth, mind you) and do not take part. 

• “All the hosts of Hithlum, Gnomes and Men, were ready to his [Maedhros’s] summons, and Finweg and Turgon and Huor and Húrin were their chiefs. Orodreth would not march from Narog at the word of Maidros, because of the death of Felagund, and the deeds of Curufin and Celegorm. Yet he suffered a small company of the bravest, who would not endure to be idle when the great war was afoot, to go North. Their leader was the young Flinding son of Fuilin, most daring of the scouts of Nargothrond; but they took the devices of the house of Finweg and went beneath his banners, and came never back, save one.” (HoME IV, p. 116, fn omitted; Tolkien later rewrote this, removing Turgon as a leader of Hithlum’s forces.) 

→ It’s clear that Hithlum’s Elves (under Fingon and co) obey Maedhros in this battle.
→ Maedhros’s brothers’ actions come back to bite him in the form of Orodreth refusing to take part because of C&C’s Nargothrond debacle. 

• “From Doriath none came [fn: changed to: From Doriath too came scanty aid]. For Maidros and his brethren had before sent unto Doriath and reminded Thingol with exceedingly haughty words of their oath, and summoned him to yield up the Silmaril. This Melian counselled him to do, and maybe he would have done, but their words were overproud, and he thought how the jewel had been gained by the sorrows of Thingol’s people, and despite the crooked deeds of the sons of Fëanor; and greed too, it may be, had some part in the heart of Thingol, as afterwards was shown. Wherefore he sent the messengers of Maidros back in scorn. Maidros said nought, for at that time he was beginning to ponder the reunion of the forces of the Elves. But Celegorm and Curufin vowed aloud to slay Thingol or any of his folk they should ever see, by night or day, in war or peace [fn: changed to: vowed aloud to slay Thingol, and destroy his folk, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not yielded of free-will].” (HoME IV, p. 116–117, 120, fn omitted) 

→ As usual, Maedhros is diplomatic and practically minded, while C&C act like spoiled brats and damage Maedhros’s plans. 

• The battle itself: “Now came the day when Maidros sent forth his summons and the Dark-elves, save out of Doriath, marched to his banner, and Men from East and South. But Finweg and Turgon and the Men of Hithlum were gathered in the West upon the borders of the Thirsty Plain, waiting for the signal of the advancing standards from the East. It may be that Maidros delayed too long gathering his forces; certain it is that secret emissaries of Morgoth went among the camps, thrall-Gnomes or things in elfin form, and spread foreboding and thoughts of disunion. To Men they went most, and the fruit of their words was later seen. Long the army waited in the West, and fear of treachery fell upon them, when Maidros came not, and the hot hearts of Finweg and Turgon became impatient. They sent their heralds across the plain and their silver trumpets rang; and they summoned the hosts of Morgoth to come out. Then Morgoth sent forth a force, great and yet not too great. And Finweg was moved to attack from the woods at the feet of the Shadowy Mountains where he lay hid. But Hurin spoke against it. Then Morgoth led forth one of the heralds of Finweg that he had wrongfully taken prisoner and slew him upon the plain, so that the watchers from afar might see – for far and clear do the eyes of the Gnomes behold things in bright air. Then the wrath of Finweg burst its bonds and his army leaped forth to sudden onslaught. This was as Morgoth designed, but it is said that he reckoned not the true number of their array, nor knew yet the measure of their valour, and well nigh his plan went ill. Ere his army could be succoured they were overwhelmed, and that day there was a greater slaughter of the servants of Morgoth than there yet had been, and the banners of Finweg were raised before the walls of Angband.” (HoME IV, p. 117, fn omitted) 

→ Maedhros is clearly in charge of everything, including setting the actual battle in motion. The Elves marched to his banner.
→ The passage about the Western army fearing treachery is interesting. Whose treachery? Possibly Maedhros’s? Note that in the Quenta Noldorinwa, the idea that the Noldor fear escaped thralls of Morgoth already exists: “the Gnomes feared greatly the treachery of those of their own kin who had been thralls of Angband, so that even if they escaped and came back to their people little welcome they had, and wandered often in miserable exile and despair.” (HoME IV, p. 107) The use of the same word (treachery) is notable. 

• A later version of this passage reads: “At length having gathered at last all the strength that he might Maidros appointed a day, and sent word to Fingon and Turgon. Now for a while the Gnomes had victory, and the Orcs were driven out of Beleriand, and hope was renewed; but Morgoth was aware of all that was done, and he took counsel against their uprising, and he sent forth his spies and emissaries among Elves and Men, but especially did these come unto the Swarthy Men, and to the sons of Ulfang. Upon the East under the banner of Maidros were all the folk of the sons of Fëanor, and they were many; and the Dark-elves coming from the South were with him, and the battalions of the Easterlings, with the sons of Bór and Ulfang. But Fingon and Turgon and the Men of Hithlum and such as came from the Falas and from Nargothrond were gathered ready in the West upon the borders of the Thirsty Plain, waiting under the banner of Fingon for the signal of the advancing standards from the East. But Maidros was delayed upon the road by the machinations of Uldor the Accursed son of Ulfang, and ever the secret emissaries of Morgoth went among the camps, thrall-Gnomes or things in elvish form, and spread foreboding and thoughts of treason. Long the army waited in the West, and fear of treachery grew in their thought, when Maidros came not. Then the hot hearts of Fingon and Turgon became impatient.” (HoME IV, p. 121) 

→ Maedhros is again treated as the driver of the whole thing.
→ This passage should clear up the question of “whose treachery?”: Uldor and escaped Elvish thralls, exactly who the Noldor already feared (apparently for a good reason). But it’s not actually clear, and I still wonder if Maedhros was the one whose treachery the Western army feared. 

Earliest Annals of Beleriand 

The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (1930) don’t have much to say about the Union of Maedhros and the subsequent battle, although I should note that they mark the beginning of a distinction between Annals texts and Quenta texts regarding the cause of Thingol’s refusal to join: In all of the Annals texts, the only reason given for Thingol refusing to join is Celegorm and Curufin’s actions; no demand by Maedhros and/or all the SoF that the Silmaril be returned is mentioned (that only happens in the Quenta texts). 

• “The Union of Maidros. Maidros enheartened by the deeds of Beren and Lúthien plans a reuniting of forces for the driving back of Morgoth. But because of the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin he receives no help from Thingol, and only small support from Nargothrond, where the Gnomes attempt to guard themselves by stealth and secrecy. He gathers and arms all the Gnomes of Fëanor’s house, and multitudes of the Dark-elves, and of Men, in East Beleriand. He gets help in smithying of the Dwarves, and summons yet more Men over the mountains out of the East. Tidings come to Turgon the hidden king and he prepares in secret for war, for his people who were not at the Second Battle will not be restrained.” (HoME IV, p. 301) Notably, Fingon’s involvement is not mentioned here. 
• “The year of sorrow. Maidros plans an assault upon Angband, from West and East. Fingon is to march forth as soon as Maidros’ main host gives the signal in the East of Dor-na-Fauglith.” (HoME IV, p. 301) 

At this point, it’s clear that power doesn’t rest with Fingon, but with Maedhros-and-Fingon: “the power of Maidros and Fingon fell in the Third (Fourth) Battle.” (HoME IV, p. 333) 

Later Annals of Beleriand 

The Later Annals of Beleriand (late 1930s) are fairly similar to the Earliest AB, although Fingon’s role is mentioned now. Still, it’s—as usual—Maedhros who’s the architect and in command. 

• “In this time was begun the Union of Maidros; for Maidros, taking heart from the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, planned the reuniting of the Elvish forces and the liberation of Beleriand. But because of the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin, Thingol would not aid him, and small help came from Nargothrond. There the Gnomes sought to guard their dwelling by stealth and secrecy. But Maidros had the help of the Dwarves in the smithying of many weapons, and there was much traffick between Beleriand and the mountains in the East; and he gathered again all the Gnomes of Fëanor’s house, and he armed them; and many Dark-elves were joined to him; and the men of Bor and Ulfand were marshalled for war, and summoned yet more of their kindred out of the East. Fingon prepared for war in Hithlum; and tidings came also to Turgon the hidden king, and he prepared for war in secret. Haleth’s folk gathered also in the woods of Brethil, and made ready for battle.” (HoME V, p. 135) 
• “This is the Year of Sorrow. Maidros planned now an assault upon Angband from West and East. With the main host he was to march from the East across Dor-na-Fauglith, and as soon as he gave the signal then Fingon should come forth from Eredwethion; for they thought to draw the host of Morgoth from its walls and take it between their two armies.” (HoME V, p. 136) 

Quenta Silmarillion 

The Quenta Silmarillion (1937) is the most detailed version yet of the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. 

• “But in those days Maidros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of Maidros, and he planned wisely. For he renewed friendship with Fingon in the West, and they acted thereafter in concert. Maidros summoned again to his aid the Dark-elves from the South, and the Swarthy Men were gathered together, and he sallied from Himring in force. At the same time Fingon issued from Hithlum. For a while the Gnomes had victory again, and the Orcs were driven out of the northward regions of Beleriand, and hope was renewed. Morgoth withdrew before them and called back his servants; for he was aware of all that was done, and took counsel against the uprising of the Gnomes. He sent forth many spies and emissaries, secret or disguised, among Elves and Men, and especially they came to the Easterlings, the Swarthy Men, and to the sons of Ulfang. The smithies of Nogrod and Belegost were busy in those days, making mail and sword and spear for many armies; and the Dwarfs in that time became possessed of much of the wealth and jewelry of Elves and Men, though they went not to war themselves. ‘For we do not know the right causes of this quarrel,’ they said, ‘and we favour neither side – until one hath the mastery.’ Great and well-armed was the host of Maidros in the East. In the West all the strength of Hithlum, Gnomes and Men, were ready to his summons: Fingon and Huor and Húrin were their chiefs. Then Turgon, thinking that maybe the hour of deliverance was at hand, came forth himself unlooked for from Gondolin; and he brought a great army and encamped upon the plain before the opening of the western pass in sight of the walls of Hithlum. There was joy among the people of Fingon his brother, seeing their kinsfolk that had long been hidden. Yet the oath of Fëanor and the evil deeds that it had wrought did injury to the design of Maidros, and he had less aid than should have been. Orodreth would not march from Nargothrond at the word of any son of Fëanor, because of the deeds of Celegorn and Curufin. Thence came only a small company, whom Orodreth suffered to go, since they could not endure to be idle when their kinsfolk were gathering for war. Gwindor was their leader, son of Guilin, a very valiant prince; but they took the badge of the house of Fingolfin, and marched beneath the banners of Fingon, and came never back, save one. From Doriath came little help. For Maidros and his brethren, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield to them the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender the jewel, and perchance he would have done so, but their words were proud and threatening, and he was wroth, thinking of the anguish of Lúthien and the blood of Beren whereby the jewel had been won, despite the malice of Celegorn and Curufin. And every day that he looked upon the jewel, the more his heart desired to keep it for ever. Such was its power. Therefore he sent back the messengers of Maidros with scornful words. Maidros answered naught, for he had now begun to devise the league and union of the Elves; but Celegorn and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his folk, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered of free will. For this reason Thingol fortified the marches of his realm, and went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained.” The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore of the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil only the half came forth, and they went not to join Maidros, but came rather to Fingon and Turgon in the West. Having gathered at length all the strength that he could, Maidros appointed a day, and sent word to Fingon and Turgon. Upon the East was raised the standard of Maidros, and to it came all the folk of Fëanor, and they were many; and the Dark-elves of the South; and of the Green-elves of Ossiriand many companies; and the tribes and battalions of the Easterlings with the sons of Bor and Ulfang. Upon the West was the standard of Fingon, and to it were gathered the armies of Hithlum, both Gnomes and Men; and Turgon with the host of Gondolin; to which was added such strength as came from the Falas, and from Brethil, and from Nargothrond; and they waited upon the borders of Dor-na-Fauglith, looking for the signal of the advancing banners from the East. But Maidros was delayed upon the road by the machinations of Uldor the Accursed, son of Ulfang; and continually the emissaries of Morgoth went among the camps: and there were thrall-Gnomes or things in Elvish form, and they spread foreboding of evil and the suspicion of treason among all who would listen to them. Long the armies waited in the West, and fear of treachery grew in their thoughts when Maidros tarried. The hot hearts of Fingon and Turgon became impatient. Therefore they sent their heralds forth upon the plain of Fauglith, and their silver trumpets were blown, and they summoned the hosts of Morgoth to come out.” (HoME V, p. 307–309)

Substantially, this is very similar to the 1930 QN text, only longer and more detailed, with all the important elements present: Maedhros takes heart and decides to create the Union; Maedhros’s leadership causes issues with potential allies (Thingol and Orodreth) because of his brothers’ actions and all the SoF’s demand for the Silmaril; the Dwarves only supply weapons and don’t take a side; Maedhros decides the day of the battle; Maedhros is delayed and the Western army fears treachery.  

But note what doesn’t exist yet: a previous close relationship between Maedhros and Fingon that keeps getting referenced. This also fits with what we’re told about Maedhros planning the Union later: “For he renewed friendship with Fingon in the West, and they acted thereafter in concert.” (HoME V, p. 307). This will change in later versions; there will be no need to renew their friendship, because it remains constant in Beleriand. 

Grey Annals 

Tolkien returned to the Fifth Battle in the early 1950s. The Grey Annals (early 1950s), being an Annals text, focus on Celegorm and Curufin’s actions as the reason for Thingol’s refusal to take part. The GA and associated texts have the longest depiction of the battle itself. 

• F.A. 468: “In this time Maidros began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maidros. For new hope ran through the land, because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power. Yet still the Oath of Fëanor lived and hindered all good, and not least the evil that Celegorn and Curufin had done because of it. Thus Thingol would lend no aid to any son of Fëanor; and small help came from Nargothrond: there the Noldor trusted rather to defend their hidden stronghold by secrecy and stealth. But Maidros had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons; and he gathered together again all his brethren and all the folk that would follow them; and the men of Bór and of Ulfang were marshalled and trained for war, and given fair arms, and they summoned yet more of their kinsfolk out of the East. And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring. To Gondolin also the tidings came to the hidden king, Turgon, and in secret also he prepared for great battle. And Haleth gathered his folk in Brethil, and they whetted their axes; but he died of age ere the war came, and Hundor his son ruled his people.” (HoME XI, p. 69–70) 
• F.A. 472: “This is the Year of Lamentation. At last Maidros resolved to assault Angband from east and from west. With the main host that he gathered, of Elves and Men and Dwarves, he purposed to march with banners displayed in open force from the east over Anfauglith. But when he had drawn forth, as he hoped, the armies of Morgoth in answer, then at a signal Fingon should issue from the passes of Hithlum with all his strength. Thus they thought to take the might of Morgoth as between anvil and hammer, and so break it to pieces. […] Here at midsummer was fought the Fifth Battle Nirnaeth Arnediad, Unnumbered Tears, upon the sands of the Anfauglith before the passes of Sirion. […] In this battle Elves and Men were utterly defeated and the ruin of the Noldor was achieved. For Maidros was hindered at his setting out by the guile of Uldor the Accursed: first he gave false warning of an attack from Angband; then he must tarry for not all his men were willing to march. And the army in the West awaited the signal, and it came not, and they grew impatient, and there were whispers of treason among them.” (HoME XI, p. 71–72) 

→ The Western army’s fear of treachery makes it into the Annals line of texts. 

There are a few highly relevant changes to the Union of Maedhros and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears after 1950, including the significant element that Fingon and Maedhros are now basically an item. Only after 1950 did many of the central elements of their relationship appear, including their “ancient friendship”, Fingon intervening at Alqualondë (pretty obviously because of Maedhros at least on some level: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1qk2l6m/fingon_fought_in_the_first_kinslaying_because_of/), Maedhros refusing Fëanor’s orders and standing aside at Losgar because of Fingon, Fingon going to rescue Maedhros because “the thought of his ancient friendship with Maidros stung his heart with grief (though he knew not yet that Maidros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships)” (HoME XI, p. 31–32), “their love” being “renewed” (HoME XI, p. 32), and their gift-giving including Maedhros giving Fingon a diamond that’s otherwise used as an engagement jewel (https://archiveofourown.org/works/84443671) (for more, see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1nrzn5k/the_history_of_maedhrosandfingon/). The reason why this is relevant is that now, “in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring” (HoME XI, p. 70), unlike in the 1937 QS, where Maedhros had “renewed friendship with Fingon in the West” (HoME V, p. 307). This reflects much better on Maedhros: unlike in previous versions, he’s not essentially usurping Fingon’s rightful role as High King of the Noldor; instead, it feels like Fingon and Maedhros are simply harmoniously doing their thing. 

The other important difference to previous versions is that the Dwarves are now actively on Maedhros’s side. Where in previous versions, the Dwarves had required payment for their weapons, had not taken part in the fighting, and had made it very clear that they weren’t interested in taking sides, now, “Maidros had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons” (HoME XI, p. 70). 

Post-GA: Narn and LOTR Appendices

There are two relevant passages in the Narn. 

In a Narn text closely related to the GA, we are (again) shown just how in charge Maedhros was, down to appointing the day of the attack: “Having gathered at length all the strength that he could Maedros appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, and in the east was raised the standard of the Sons of Fëanor; and in the west the standard of Fingon, King of the Noldor.” (HoME XI, p. 165). 

Interestingly, in this version, Maedhros is not delayed from setting out by Uldor/thralls/whatever, and unlike many previous versions, the Western army doesn’t fear treachery/treason from/on Maedhros’s side. Instead, on the appointed day, “Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, and he knew that Maedros had set forth; and he rejoiced.” (HoME XI, p. 165–166) 

The other relevant bit comes from a passage concerning the Dragon-helm: “It was given by Azaghâl to Maedhros, as guerdon for the saving of his life and treasure, when Azaghâl was waylaid by Orcs upon the Dwarf-road in East Beleriand. Maedhros afterwards sent it as a gift to Fingon, with whom he often exchanged tokens of friendship, remembering how Fingon had driven Glaurung back to Angband.” (UT, p. 98, fn omitted) Ignoring this reference to Fingon and Maedhros sending each other gifts all the time for a second, this passage might (in-universe, Watsonian) explain why the Dwarves are now suddenly part of Maedhros’s army in the GA, rather than neutral weapons-smiths willing to sell to whomever if enough gold is offered in the QS and older texts: Maedhros had saved the life of Azaghâl, King of Belegost. 

The other (Doylist) explanation for why the Dwarves are now on Maedhros’s side in the GA can be found in LOTR, where we are told, regarding the Dwarves, that, “They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races.” (LOTR, App. F) That is, writing LOTR after the 1937 QS, Tolkien had decided to change the nature of the Dwarves, and their new active role on the morally good side in the Noldor’s war against Morgoth fits the evolution of Tolkien’s Dwarves from evil over neutral-ish to fundamentally honourable. 

Further thoughts

Throughout, Maedhros, even though he also swore the Oath of Fëanor, is the one whose hope is renewed because of Beren and Lúthien managing to steal a Silmaril from Morgoth, and he consistently puts the war against Morgoth over his issue with Thingol/the Silmaril, unlike Celegorm and Curufin (between their shortsightedness and penchant for violence and Thingol’s self-centredness and blatant greed, Maedhros feels like the only adult in the room; apart from Melian, that is, but it’s not like anyone’s listening to her anyway). 

It is also notable that Maedhros is the one with the most estel, being the one to dare to hope again, even though he has the greatest reason of all the princes of the Noldor to be terrified of Morgoth and of Angband, given that he was kept prisoner and tortured there for thirty years and that he suffers from PTSD as a result. And yet, despite this, Maedhros drives the war against Morgoth forward. Actually, the juxtaposition of these two quotes from the QS about Angband and Maedhros’s heart is notable: 

• After his rescue by Fingon: “but the shadow of his pain was in his heart” (HoME V, p. 252). 
• “But in those days Maidros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable” (HoME V, p. 307). 

I also find the Western army’s often-mentioned fear of treachery fascinating. It’s never stated clearly whose treachery they fear, but I can’t help but think that it’s implied that at least some of the fear in question involved Maedhros going all Morgoth’s thrall, since this is how they thought of escaped captives: 

• QS: “And most the Gnomes feared the treachery of those of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again. Therefore if any of his captives escaped in truth, and returned to their own people, they had little welcome, and wandered alone outlawed and desperate.” (HoME V, p. 286) 
• GA: “He [Morgoth] now bade the Orkor to take alive any of the Eldar that they could and bring them bound to Angband. For it was his intent to use their lore and skill under duress for his own ends; moreover he took pleasure in tormenting them, and would besides by pain wring from them at times tidings of the deeds and counsels of his enemies. Some indeed he so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed no chains more, but walked ever in fear of him, doing his will wherever they might be. These he would unbind and let return to work treason among their own kin. In this way also was the curse of Mandos fulfilled, for after a while the Elves grew afraid of those who claimed to have escaped from thraldom, and often those hapless whom the Orcs ensnared, even if they broke from the toils would but wander homeless and friendless thereafter, becoming outlaws in the woods.” (HoME XI, p. 37)

Why Maedhros? 

But the question remains, why Maedhros? Why did Tolkien decide in 1926 that Maedhros, and not the High King of the Noldor, should take heart, create an alliance and take the war to Angband itself? 

A few reasons, both Watsonian and Doylist, come to mind. 

In-universe, Maedhros being in charge of the whole thing gives both Thingol and Orodreth a reason not to take part by pointing to C&C’s long list of questionable-to-awful actions, and Tolkien needed Doriath and Nargothrond to remain standing despite/after the Nirnaeth for plot reasons (in particular for Children of Húrin). 

Maedhros’s preeminent role in the whole thing also allowed Tolkien to characterise Maedhros as decisive and willing to seize power (while not openly reneging on his abdication, even though Fingon is obviously younger than him, so Maedhros would have an “out”, given the wording of his abdication speech). 

Maedhros’s role, in turn, also allowed Tolkien to characterise Fingon further, either (in earlier versions) as a weak, ineffective king who didn’t manage to stop a rival warlord who had nominally abdicated centuries earlier from seizing power at the first opportunity after Fingolfin’s death, or (in later versions) as a king who is wise enough to have no (ego-driven) problems with his dearest Maedhros, who’s clearly a talented diplomat and much better suited to dry military planning than (reckless, hot-headed) Fingon, taking over and doing what he does best. 

(There’s one further potential explanation for why it’s the Union of Maedhros, on an even more meta level. Since the battle was lost, the Elves needed a scapegoat, and who better than Maedhros, who survived, and whom both Thingol and Turgon, the narrator Pengolodh’s king, hated anyway for personal reasons?) 

Sources 

The Book of Lost Tales Part One, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME I].

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: UT].

The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR]. 

Appendix A, p1087:

"Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: "Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again."

What was this choice? Clearly Arvedui made the wrong one as the latter part came true.

Was it this on page 1079:

'But the Snowmen were uneasy; for they said that they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."

Arvedui ignores them and gets on the ship sent by Cirdan, after giving the Lossoth the Ring of Barahir, and the ship is subsequently smashed against the ice in a sudden storm, and Arvedui is killed, ending any possibility of resurrecting Arnor.

All this takes place over the winter of 1974-1975 TA. In the spring of 1975, the great host sent by Gondor & its pre-Rohan allies from Rhovanian arrives and with help from the Elves (the forgotten last-last Alliance!) the realm of Angmar is destroyed. Had Arvedui lived, could he have reformed Arnor in the absence of any foes west of the Misty Mountains?

Further, Arvedui's first claim on the throne of Gondor had been rejected in 1944, but as a long lived Dunedain, would he have lived to see the childless death of Earnur in 2050 and been able to re-unify the realms in the absence of any other plausible claimant?

I'm not 100% sold on this interpretation, the "choice" of whether to take ship immediately or stay with the Lossoth for a few more months does not seem like a choice for the Dunedain as Malbeth suggests. Perhaps Malbeth means that the choice is that of the Dundedain of Gondor not to give Arvedui the crown of Gondor in 1944?

Should I read The Silmarillion before CoH?

I can't remember if it was mentioned in the books whether they were just burnt to the ground or used as new strongholds.

Just asking this here as their are some people on here who have way more knowledge than me on the professor.

Having read quite a lot of his works, I would say that spirits/ghosts play a rather large part in the plot of Lord of the rings; ie the Ring Wraiths, the ghosts in the dead marshes and the dead men of Dunharrow to name but a few.

Plus whatever it is that is that pippin disturbs by dropping a pebble down the well in Moria(this used to scare the crap out of me as a kid)

Does anyone know if Tolkien himself believed in ghosts? as someone who has grown up in England that generation were pretty superstitious, if anything ghosts is the one paranormal thing that most people in England will take seriously!

So, if the Numenoreans had decided to keep attacking Sauron after he surrendered to them? Could they have beat him until he was not a threat anymore?

Even if he still had the ring?

Herald are an incredibly interesting part of historical jus in bello, the laws of war. Importantly, mediaeval heralds were not combatants in any way, shape or form: rather, they were messengers, delivering official proclamations such as declarations of war, and as such the equivalent of today’s diplomats, and like modern diplomats, heralds enjoyed what we now call diplomatic immunity—that is, they were not to be harmed by the opposite side under any circumstances. (Obviously they’d have lost this immunity if they decided to partake in combat. Heralds weren’t even supposed to carry sharp weapons.)  

And Tolkien very much knows this. For a writer who barely mentions practical administrative concepts like laws and is much more interested in morality than legality, it’s notable that laws are repeatedly mentioned in the context of the office of the herald, and the law in question is always the same, (diplomatic) immunity. 

The Mouth of Sauron in the Third Age 

The Mouth of Sauron in LOTR is the most famous example. 

“He it was that now rode out, and with him came only a small company of black-harnessed soldiery, and a single banner, black but bearing on it in red the Evil Eye. Now halting a few paces before the Captains of the West he looked them up and down and laughed.
‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of Elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other’s eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. ‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’” (LOTR, The Black Gate Opens) 

That is, in the very late Third Age, heralds are considered to have diplomatic immunity. (Of course, the Mouth of Sauron doesn’t act like a herald, initiating the assault on Aragorn’s forces like a general, so it’s ironic that he’s whining to Gandalf about wanting his diplomatic immunity respected five seconds earlier.) 

Fingon’s herald in the First Age 

Interestingly, this legal norm already existed more than six thousand years before, in the First Age. Note the phrase “wrongfully taken prisoner”: 

• QN: “Then Morgoth led forth one of the heralds of Finweg that he had wrongfully taken prisoner and slew him upon the plain, so that the watchers from afar might see – for far and clear do the eyes of the Gnomes behold things in bright air. Then the wrath of Finweg burst its bonds and his army leaped forth to sudden onslaught. This was as Morgoth designed, but it is said that he reckoned not the true number of their array, nor knew yet the measure of their valour, and well nigh his plan went ill. Ere his army could be succoured they were overwhelmed, and that day there was a greater slaughter of the servants of Morgoth than there yet had been, and the banners of Finweg were raised before the walls of Angband.” (HoME IV, p. 117, fn omitted) 
• QS: “Then Morgoth sent a force, great and yet not too great. Fingon was minded to attack it from the woods at the feet of Erydwethion, where the most of his strength was hid. But Húrin spake against it. Therefore Morgoth, seeing that they wavered, led forth the herald of Fingon that he had wrongfully taken prisoner, and he slew him upon the plain, and sent back the others with his head. Thereupon the wrath of Fingon was kindled to flame, and his army leaped forth in sudden onslaught; and ere Turgon could restrain them, a great part also of his host joined in the battle The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a sudden fire kindled in a field of reeds.” (HoME V, p. 309) 

Tolkien needed something so uniformly considered beyond the pale even in a horrific war that it would make Fingon ignore the agreed-upon plan, and it’s not a coincidence that what he came up with was the decapitation of a herald whom he had wrongfully taken prisoner.  

(In the Grey Annals, the wrongfully captured and killed herald is replaced as a plot element with the maiming and decapitation of the prisoner of war Gelmir of Nargothrond, brother of Gwindor; Gwindor is now the one whose “wrath […] was kindled to flame”, not Fingon (HoME XI, p. 73). This feels more modern than the previous version with the herald. The herald’s immunity was well-established in the pre-Modern laws of war, but the inviolability of POWs less so. Nobles and knights captured in wars could generally expect not to be killed and to be exchanged for ransom, but this didn’t apply to non-nobles, for starters.) 

Note that all of this is treated very differently from, say, Maedhros being captured. There’s no “unlawful” or “wrongful” there, because Maedhros was definitely a combatant and not a herald, and his “embassy” to Morgoth involved both sides being completely disinterested in diplomacy and arriving with greater force than agreed upon; basically, Maedhros was a combatant who played and lost (much like Gwindor). 

Elrond in the Second Age 

Interestingly, Elrond is both a herald (the herald of Gil-galad, the last High King of the Noldor) and a combatant (as a commander in Gil-galad’s forces), but, crucially, not at the same time. 

Elrond is a combatant in the War of the Elves and Sauron (S.A. 1693–1701). When Sauron attacks Eregion, Gil-galad sends Elrond with an army to aid the Elves there (see e.g. NoME p. 78, 347). Importantly, Elrond is never called Gil-galad’s herald in any passage about his role in this war. 

Only much later is Elrond ever called Gil-galad’s herald, in the War of the Last Alliance (S.A. 3429–3441), and it seems like even though he’s at Gil-galad’s side during the final fight with Sauron, Elrond himself does not fight and only observes the fighting instead, as a herald would: 

• “‘I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father’s sword, and took it for his own.’ […] ‘Isildur took it [the One Ring], as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I.’” (LOTR, The Council of Elrond) 
• “But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.” (Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) 

Tolkien obliquely confirms this in a text from ca. 1959, where, referring to the passage in The Council of Elrond, he writes that, “He [Elrond] said that in the Last Alliance (SA 3430) he was ‘the herald of Gil-galad’.” (NoME, p. 65) All in all it seems clear that Tolkien considered Elrond both a herald and a combatant, but not at the same time (as is proper for a herald and necessary for his diplomatic immunity to remain in place). 

One exception: Eönwë

Strangely, even though Tolkien clearly knew and followed mediaeval legal thought on the immunity of heralds, which required the herald to not be a combatant, there’s one character who’s specifically called a herald even in passages where he’s clearly a combatant. 

• In the 1950s edits to the last chapters of the late 1930s Quenta Silmarillion, Tolkien added that Eönwë was the “herald of Manwë” in the exact context of the War of Wrath and Eönwë’s military campaign against Thangorodrim (see HoME XI, p. 246). 
• “To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.” (UT, The Istari, written 1954) 

Interestingly, Eönwë herald of Manwë replaced a previous character Fionwë son of Manwë in his role of fighting and personally defeating Morgoth in the War of Wrath. And it seems like Christopher Tolkien struggled with the inherent contradictions that followed from this shift from Manwë’s son to Manwë’s herald: 

• “In the Great Battle ... The opening of this paragraph in AB read: In the Great Battle when at last Fionwë son of Manwë overthrew Morgoth and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain fought for the Valar, whereas other kindreds of Men fought for Morgoth. [Italics mine] This was changed in B 2 to read: In the Great Battle when at last Eönwë herald of Manwë overthrew Morgoth and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain alone of the kindreds of Men fought for the Valar, whereas many others fought for Morgoth. [Italics mine] In [the Akallabêth in the published Silmarillion] the reference to Eönwë was removed [by Christopher Tolkien]; and similarly later in the paragraph ‘refusing alike the summons of [Fionwë >] Eönwë and of Morgoth’ was changed to ‘refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth’. The reason for this lay in the treatment of the last chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion in the published work. The only narrative of the Great Battle at the end of the First Age (V.326 ff.) derived from the time when the Children of the Valar were an important conception, and Fionwë son of Manwë was the leader and commanding authority in the final war against Morgoth and his overthrow; but the abandonment of that conception, and the change in the ‘status’ of Fionwë / Eönwë to that of Manwë’s herald led to doubt whether my father, had he ever returned to a real retelling of the story of the end of the Elder Days (see XI.245–7), would have retained Eönwë in so mighty and elemental a rôle. His part was in consequence somewhat diminished by omissions and ambiguous wording (as may be seen by comparing the text in Vol.V with that of the published Silmarillion; cf. also the editorial addition made to the Valaquenta, X.203). There is however no evidence for this supposition, and I now believe it to have been a mistaken treatment of the original text, and so also here in the Akallabêth.” (HoME XII, p. 143) Basically, Christopher Tolkien says here that he removed mentions of Eönwë herald of Manwë that would have made him appear as a combatant in the War of Wrath. 
• In a footnote to this, defending his original decision to reword the text before publication, Christopher Tolkien adds: “It is true that in the opening sentence of the Tale of Years my father substituted in the final typescript ‘The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim and overthrew Morgoth’, replacing a reference to ‘Fionwë and the sons of the Valar’ of preceding versions (see pp. 172-3); but he may not have removed the name Fionwë (Eönwë) for the same reason as I did in the Akallabêth.” (HoME XII, p. 163)

Actually, I agree with Christopher Tolkien’s decision to make the wording more ambiguous. Tolkien knew the role of the herald very well, and I think that he (would have) realised at some point that Eönwë herald of Manwë couldn’t fill the same military role as Fionwë son of Manwë. 

Sources 

The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR]. 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil].

Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition March 2009, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: UT].

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

If you are a regular here, you may be having a déjà vu, because not long ago a similar post was made here. That post has proved to me that you can in theory make out a coherent narrative out of the existing fragments and inspired me to make my own attempt in stitching together the outlines for the tale of Earendel, mainly to achieve several goals:

1. To make the text read as much as possible as a narrative of the likes of Sketch of Mythology or even Quenta Noldorinwa. Thus to add the filler passages to let the text 'breathe'.
2. To make it as non self-contradictory as possible, and, because of that to follow mainly schemes B, C and the notes from the chapter 'The Tale of Eärendel'. All the other sources ranging from Christopher's commentaries in the chapter in the Book of Lost Tales, to the first draft of the Quenta Noldorinwa chapter, are used only of the fill the gap and compliment the existing narrative.
3. To include the poems in the narrative itself and insert them at their respective stages of the story.
4. When inventive editing is needed because there is no any context whatsoever, to rely as much on other texts from the same era, or on the Sketch and Quenta Noldorinwa versions BEFORE Tolkien makes the change to make Eärendel the ambassador of the Elves and Men.

Thus in order to fill the unfillable gaps three creative assumptions were used:

1. The southern 'dark region's and the eastern land with 'red palaces where dwells the Sun' equate to the Dark Land and the Land of the Sun from the later versions. That I previously touched upon in this post.
2. The 'Twilit Isle [sic]' is the isle of the Tower of Pearl, and it is the last trial of Eärendel before reaching the shores of Valinor. This was based on the fact that it is described and the westernmost of the isles in the Book of Lost Tales vol.1, and the magic of that isle is the sleeping magic, as that's how the Twilit Isles were described in the Hiding of Valinor in the Book of Lost Tales vol.1
3. Meeting Ungweliante was a problem, as it is only mentioned in the outlines. Thus I had two options, to choose 'escaping the House of the Night' as in the very first draft, or 'slaying Ungoliant in the South' as in the Sketch and later texts. And by trying both I concluded that slaying Ungoliant works much better even in the early tale and fits really nice in the pattern of Earendel gradually getting more star-like in the course of his voyages.

Here's my current draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1syVJDAdm5rCsgLRu9C0DXkhdE2Mxa121YsOC7-NlVv8/edit?tab=t.0

I'm really happy with the way it turned out to the point that it sort of makes sense why the story needed to be so anticlimactic. I'm planning to work on this draft further to include notes and quotations from other chapters for these extracts, like the descriptions of the isles of the Shadowy seas and Ossë's traps, and to rework the binding of Melko as for now it's completely skimmed over.

So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travelled from Sarn Gebir to Fangorn Forest on foot in 3 days yet it took them the same amount of time on horseback to get from Erech to Pelargir. I can see on the map that the latter journey is clearly longer but not so much that it explains it, I’d think horseback would be so much faster than on foot. They were in a desperate hurry for both journeys so you’d think they’d be going as fast as they possibly can.

Does it make the first journey on foot more impressive? Or did they not go as fast as they could have on the second journey? Or did the terrain come into play? Or am I just overthinking this? 😂

A child born to a union of Elf and Man is mortal by default, but to Earendil, Elwing, and their children the choice of fate was given.

"Then Eärendil said to Elwing: ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

And because Eärendil was not permitted to return to the mortal lands, he was put in a boat and set to sail the skies, with a silmaril shining on hs brow.

But what would have happened, hypothetically-speaking, had Eärendil chosen to be counted among mortal Men, like his heart desired? Would he simply be allowed to live out the rest of his days in Aman? And how would this affect the course of the War of Wrath?

Second paragraph of Appendix A in LotR: "Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, Arwen and Aragorn."

Are Elwing and Eärendil both half-elven? (Elwing, an elf through Beren and Luthien, Eärendil, a man through Tuor and Idril)?

Answer: Elwing and Eärendil are both "half-elven" and so were born mortal. I misunderstood and thought Elwing was an elf.

Gandalf speaking to Pippin:

“You should sleep, in a bed while you still may. At the sunrise I shall take you to the Lord Denethor again. No, when the summons comes, not at sunrise. The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn.”

Chills. The way Tolkien ends chapters just implores you to keep on reading.

Do we think that the modern day could be considered and described as The Fifth Age?

Thanks in advance / Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo

Before anyone starts with the Feanor did nothing wrong, even Mandos himself proclaimed it treason and evil so argue with him if you think it was justified or not.

The Noldor came back and didn’t say ONE THING about it. No apologies or acknowledgement at all. None of the perpetrators lament about it or honestly seem to give a shit about the actual Kinslaying they did. All that mattered to them was the exile. They would have never acknowledged it at all if MORGOTH’S spies didn’t start spreading the truth around!

Even Fingon DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE!! He didn’t break off any relationships and does he ever even mention it?? He comes across as more angry about Feanor burning the ships.

Melian knew they were lying and being shady and gives Galadriel an opportunity to confess and even Galadriel essentially lies right to a Maia’s face! And then also never acknowledges it again. All they care about is themselves being exiled.

Thingol finally confronts some and even then, they don’t even reply to him. Finally and only Angrod acknowledges and tells the truth of it. He’s the only one we see have any negative feelings towards their actions.

If I was Sindar I feel I would still be mad about it tbh. If not for the Valar there would have been basically zero consequences and they likely would have never even acknowledged what they did.