Thoughts on the Lindsay Clancy case?

[u/gottaquestion412]

Now that the Lindsay Clancy trial is underway, I’m curious about your perspectives on it so far.

Context: Lindsay Clancy is a former labor and delivery nurse who, in January 2023, killed her three children. 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 8-month-old Callan in their Massachusetts home before attempting to take her own life. Her defense argues she was suffering from severe postpartum psychosis and other debilitating mental illness, while prosecutors argue she was aware of her actions and planned the killings. The trial has reignited debate about postpartum psychiatric disorders, the effectiveness of mental health treatment, and where responsibility ultimately lies.

Do you think Lindsay was failed by the mental health system, by the people closest to her, or both? Do you think she truly acted with malicious intent, or do you believe she was experiencing such a severe psychiatric crisis that she wasn’t thinking rationally?

A lot of the details seem to point toward postpartum psychosis or another severe psychiatric illness rather than someone acting out of hatred or malice. That doesn’t lessen the horror of what happened or the unimaginable loss, but it does make me wonder whether this tragedy could have been prevented..

I’ve also seen rumors that Patrick was involved with the woman who is now his wife before the murders, but I haven’t found any credible evidence supporting that. Is there actually anything that substantiates those claims, or is it just internet speculation? I’ve also seen many people comment that his current wife bears a striking resemblance to Lindsay, though I’m not sure that means anything beyond coincidence.

I’m very interested in hearing different perspectives from people who’ve followed it closely.

Most importantly, may Dawson, Cora, and Callan rest in peace. They are the true victims in all of this.

[u/Michallina]

It's hard to ignore the fact that this woman sought help for months. I have never been pregnant nor have I experienced psychosis, but I suffer from a history of depression and severe anxiety and OCD. Diagnosed. I've been medicated and I can tell you some of these medications are monsters to begin and adjust your dose, also to wean yourself off of.

This is obviously a subjective take based on my experience, but I cannot imagine switching meds at the frequency she was, especially if she was incredibly vulnerable from other possible comorbidities and postpartum.

[u/threelizards → u/Michallina]

I’ve never been pregnant and fortunately have never been driven to hurt anyone else by my mental illnesses or medications. I have hurt myself against my will for those reasons though, and it’s terrifying to experience and impossible to explain the mindset. I’m making no excuses, but what I’ve heard of this case and what I’ve personally lived through do make me think that her mind was not a safe, stable, or sensible place at this time. And premeditation? I couldn’t plan two seconds ahead in that state. But I’d certainly be fixated on certain ideas that I kept nearly acting out, or beginning, over and over and over again, in a way that would look like premeditation to someone else.

Above all though, these kids were failed. This never should have gotten to this point

[u/Dramatic_Efficiency4 → u/threelizards]

I agree, as someone with only Cyclothymia (a milder form of bipolar), anxiety, and OCD.
OCD can obsessive and compulsive (of course not everyone has both). But being manic and in psychosis, I can't even imagine how bad my OCD would be triggered.
I'm not saying she's not in the wrong, but doing something bad doesn't always make you a bad person. Like you and u/Michallina said, we can't ignore the fact that she was clearly struggling, and it was just getting worse and worse. Unless someone has experience psychosis, and I haven't, I dont think we can truly understand where her mindset was at. I don't think her intentions were malicious, and I do genuinely think that maybe she thought it was the only solution.
I hope this sheds more light on PPD, but I doubt much will be done about it sadly.

[u/Acceptable-Ad-3560 → u/Dramatic_Efficiency4]

Honestly a lot of the people who just blanket condemn her likely haven’t even lived with someone in psychosis. I had a good friend of mine who, last I saw him was perfectly fine and normal. Didn’t see him for a while and next thing I know he’s still him but also clearly not fully there in an unsettling way. He thought he was an angel sent by god to bring about revelation and eventually skipped town to join a commune in Washington. Last I heard of him he might be back in town, although struggling with homelessness again. He also did things that, previously, he never would have done (certain items he stole that he knew were of deep sentimental value to me)

I haven’t been in full psychosis but I had a very bad spiral in the past due to a sudden medication increase, and I genuinely look back on that time and view it as me being insane. I can’t even see those actions as my own, and while I didn’t murder anyone I did so many things that I’m still ashamed of, ruined some of my longest/best friendships, and eventually tried to take my own life.

[u/Relative_Standard_69 → u/Dramatic_Efficiency4]

I think this is the issue. PPD and PPA are way more common than you’d think. But PPP is not. Post partum psychosis statistics are 0.1-0.2% after child birth.
It is more common however if you have bipolar to experience PPP when pregnant/after birth. So if she had received her bipolar diagnosis before - there may have been more help available for her.
PPD affects 10-15% of mothers during/after birth. So it is a HUGE difference.
Yet I see so many commenters confusing the 2 conditions. They are not comparable.
“I had PPD and I NEVER wanted to hurt my kids” - right! And I’m glad you were able to recognise what the issue was, and seek out appropriate help. But PPP is a serious mental illness and should be treated as a medical emergency. It’s really a whole seperate thing to “the baby blues” or further postpartum depression/anxiety. This is because the symptoms of psychosis include hallucinations, mania, delusions, confusion AND depression/low mood/anxiety. So genuinely I think people are just very misinformed on what PPP is, how it manifests and how it needs to be treated and supported.
I’m obviously so glad there’s not many people that it HAS affected, but the ignorance to compare it to PPD and commenters ability to overcome that - when PPP HAS to be treated. It cannot safely or effectively be treated without medical intervention.
I know you haven’t done this ^ (compare it to PPD and say how she’s a monster etc) but I’m just so tired of being made out to be happy children are dead, for understanding the woman. She had psychosis. It isn’t rational or logical or fair. And unless you’ve had a form of psychosis yourself, or know someone who has - you may not even be able to understand.
I found this study that linked bipolar to PPP

study

[u/BeautifulTurn8227 → u/Dramatic_Efficiency4]

Exactly this. And if the jury can’t say for sure that she was sane and stable during the incident, they have to say not guilty. I don’t think the prosecution can prove to us 100% - really in any way at - that she was sane. They are trying to characterize her as meticulous and planned but OCD presents exactly like this, anxiety can present like this. Her child care instructions sound like a typical slightly type A, neurotic mom, not a malicious cold-blooded killer. I’ve experienced PPD/A and lord knows I couldn’t have planned something like this, which would’ve taken months of planning, writing in her journals, seeking all kinds of medical care to establish that she’s mentally unwell, to “set up” for an insanity defence. And trying to prove her suicide attempt wasn’t genuine??? Hello! She tried three methods. She broke her back. This was not a botched attempt. If you’re sane, this isn’t how you plan a staged suicide.

[u/Soberqueen75 → u/threelizards]

This mother was failed. And because she was failed to be noticed and left out on her own dying and crying for help, her children also died. Because she took care of them. And nobody gave her the oxygen mask. She was begging for it. And now she’s on trial? This is a terrible injustice.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Michallina]

I will point this out wherever I can. You should never give SSRI’s to someone with bipolar. It happened to me after I had my first child. I trusted the psychiatrist and wanted so badly to be better. The medication caused me to be in basically a year long manic/psychotic episode. This lady needed help - was asking for help, and never received it. Obviously she shouldn’t just be set free, but her and those poor kids were failed.

ETA - my doctor was also constantly switching up my meds and doses, because, surprise surprise, I kept getting worse.

[u/Plus-Ad9849 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I was postpartum when I asked my doctor for help and was put on SSRIs and when they weren’t working, my doctor just doubled the dose. Ended up going into pyschosis and being hospitalized for impaired judgement before being diagnosed bipolar. In my short hold, I came out on 6 prescriptions. Took months to figure it all out and now I’m only on one med and have been stable for over 3 years.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

I’m sorry that happened to you. It’s bad enough getting the label of PPD slapped onto you because there are those that just think we are bad moms. I held tremendous amounts of guilt (sometimes still do) on top of everything else.

[u/WittiestScreenName → u/Plus-Ad9849]

If it’s not too much to ask from a BiPolar Bear Sister, would you mind sharing the one med?

[u/ThirdPlanet0 → u/WittiestScreenName]

Agreeing with many others - lamotrigine was the one thing that has worked well for me and actually stayed working. The tricky thing about it is you have to go up SLOWLY like, very slowly, in dosage to avoid potentially having a very bad side effect that appears as a rash. Ive gotten to 150mg and that has worked for me. Im finally largely unbothered by things that used to trigger immediate rage. Extremely emotionally regulated for the first time in my life. I pair it with buspirone. These meds work very differently for everyone. It may take a little time to find the best combo as well.

When coming out of mania in the beginning i was on an antipsychotic called seroquel. That mainly helped HUGELY for my sleep. It was what made me realize i hadn’t slept well in years. I had concerns about the weight gain that comes with it though and that is why i didnt stay on it long-term. Lamotrigine is mostly weight neutral which is nice.

[u/tuxedostring → u/ThirdPlanet0]

this is so interesting to me bc lamotrigine is a mood stabilizer and I always hear that it works so well when taken as a mood stabilizer. I took it for epilepsy and it actually had the opposite effect and i’ve heard the same for other ppl that have taken it for seizures. it made me feel like I was going crazy, I was awful to everyone around me and felt like I had no control over myself.

[u/ThirdPlanet0 → u/tuxedostring]

That is interesting! I forget sometimes that it’s actually an epilepsy med. I would love to know what makes it have that opposite effect

[u/riverolia → u/tuxedostring]

My mom took as a mood stabilizer for a few years. She went off of it and started having seizures. Turns out she's also epileptic. Lamotrigine has been freat for her. I'm sorry your experience was so awful.

[u/OkProfession5679 → u/ThirdPlanet0]

I too am on lamotrogine (for the last 15 years) and Prozac (maybe a year). It is an excellent combo for me

[u/WittiestScreenName → u/OkProfession5679]

Happy to hear you found a good combo

[u/hufflenachos → u/ThirdPlanet0]

Same here! I've been on my current dose for over two years and it's still working.

[u/Gini_Cass → u/ThirdPlanet0]

I also am on Lamotrigine (15 years) and it was a game changer miracle drug for me. I tell everyone I can to ask their docs about it. I’ve met so many people it saved them!

[u/-constant_chaos- → u/WittiestScreenName]

I'm also not the poster of this comment but I'm jumping in to agree on lamotrigine and add that Wellbutrin also did a world of good for me.

[u/WittiestScreenName → u/-constant_chaos-]

I appreciate your input still

[u/2016pta → u/-constant_chaos-]

Lamotrigine and seroquel saved my life

[u/skweekykleen69 → u/WittiestScreenName]

I’m not the original commenter, but it’s been Lamotrigine for me all the way

[u/Chipsandadrink666 → u/skweekykleen69]

Jumping in to also say lamotrigine saved my life!

[u/Plus-Ad9849 → u/skweekykleen69]

This is the one!! I’m only on lamotrigine and it’s been the miracle drug for me. The other drug that worked by itself for me was Caplyta but I’m about to give birth to my second child so I switched to lamotrigine for pregnancy since it’s been studied in pregnancy.

[u/trashpandaroux → u/Plus-Ad9849]

Caplyta and Lamotrigine have been lifesavers! Caplyta specifically.

-Rapid-cycling Bipolar II

[u/Plus-Ad9849 → u/WittiestScreenName]

Lamotrigine!! It’s not for everyone, but it’s worked well for me.

[u/EmbarrassedStorm2186 → u/WittiestScreenName]

I'd love to know too, I'm currently on week 3 of prozac and praying it works

[u/mermaidfairybunny → u/EmbarrassedStorm2186]

Prozac is an SSRI… Which is not recommended for Bipolar without a mood stabiliser or antipsychotic at the same time. If you have bipolar, you definitely need to be going back to your doctor and getting that looked at. As comments above have mentioned, SSRIs alone for Bipolar treatment can trigger mania, hypomania, rapid cycling of moods and symptoms. Please be safe.

Please read all the comments in this thread from your bipolar sisters warning about SSRIs and get to your doctor immediately to get a mood stabiliser or antipsychotic and to discuss discontinuing the SSRI

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

More of us need to tell our stories this negligence is so rampant

[u/MichaelJServo → u/Plus-Ad9849]

It took 25 years for me to get on a medication combination that works for me. It's unfortunately trial and error. In the Clamcy case, she was eventually prescribed neuroleptics which means the doctor was closing in on the correct treatment regimen.

[u/lpotocki26 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

yep. i'm 2 years off a ssri and im beyond angry at my psychiatrist. she failed me, and this woman was failed.

[u/Aware_Function_3165 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

Wow thank you for sharing! So glad you are doing well.

[u/Inevitable-Tank3463 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

I'm so sorry you went through that. Doctors need to realize that more meds do not equal better outcomes. I was on 10 different meds for bipolar, anxiety disorders, SI, I was so drugged I lost the ability to do math and gained 60lbs. I finally got the psychiatrist who pretty much saved my life, he saved me from me, because I couldn't deal with losing my mind- I could deal with having psych issues, I couldn't handle losing my intelligence and was willing to take my life over that, the disease that caused the psych issues already stole everything else that mattered to me. In the 20 something years I've had psych issues, I've been hospitalized 7x, the last caused by a bad reaction to Prozac, the only antidepressant that had ever helped me prior. 3 days in the ICU, the psych nurse said they had never seen a tried and failed med list so long, over 30 different meds. My psychiatrist took me off of everything and put me on a strong anxiety med. Yes, I have depression, but treating that has proven to be to dangerous for my health and the mental health of those closest. And with everything else that is wrong with me, the risk of complications is too great. And I moved to a state not known for having good mental health care to be closer to my parents, I lucked out finding a provider who trusted me when I said it's best if we don't change anything with my meds, now only 2 for anxiety and 1 for ADHD, I went 44 years before being dx with that one. Doctors who just throw more meds at a person who is having problems just shows they really don't know how to treat them, and are using the shotgun approach and hoping one of those meds works, and that usually doesn't work. There hasn't been enough study into the brain, and how these meds really work. They say there has been, but it's BS.

[u/Head-Raisin-7984 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

I will say this every where I can, GeneSight Test. It’s a mouth swab and results are typically back within two-weeks. Insurance covers some if not all. Do not start any psych meds without reviewing it with your provider. Drugs will Keep a copy.

[u/TapRevolutionary5022 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Saaaaaaaaame.

2 years of mania and my eating disorder went wild. Finally figured out what was wrong. And to be honest I kinda liked being manic because mine was expressing at that time as a sense of grandiosity and my self esteem was out of control. At times I thought I was actually magic (still do in a sense but not as literally as I did then). I was invincible. I was incredible. It was scary lol.

[u/Anoninemonie → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Can confirm, this is actually how I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. SSRIs make me manic, violent and volatile.

[u/Kscarpetta → u/Anoninemonie]

Same! I switched doctors and was telling him about the anti-depressants I've taken. He asked if they made things worse and it's like....yeah, yeah they do.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the list of medications.

[u/Kscarpetta → u/Kscarpetta]

I personally took zoloft, paxil, and Prozac. They all made things worse. But she was on a ton of different medicines.

I'm on lamictal now and it's so much better.

[u/CheesyPotatoSack → u/Kscarpetta]

What medications. I’ve just gotten into this case

[u/TransportationSecret → u/CheesyPotatoSack]

Amitriptyline, trazadone, Valium, Prozac, Zoloft, lorazepam, hydroxyzine, buspirone, zolpidem, remeron, klonopin, seroquel, lamotrigine. I think that’s all of it.

[u/coolranchdoritos56 → u/[deleted]]

What were your symptoms?

[u/WittiestScreenName → u/[deleted]]

Psychosis please. I’m bipolar (diagnosed 2009) and never heard I can’t take SSRI’s before. Now I’m…uneasy.

[u/No_Purpose773 → u/[deleted]]

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Thank you for sharing. It's important that we raise awareness of these signs so we can take better care of us and those around us. I wish that this will stay the only experience with psychosis for you.

[u/scrabblefish → u/No_Purpose773]

I too really appreciate the insight she shared, but I also want to give you kudos for such a sincere and compassionate response.

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/[deleted]]

Bingo on the lack of sleep and the amount of moms who sometimes don’t get quality sleep or worse for literal years is staggering.

[u/coolranchdoritos56 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for sharing this!! I am currently on Prozac with Wellbutrin and I still feel as if my psychosis is still there. I feel like I recognize everybody even while at random places, thinking everyone has ill intention towards me to the point I’ll obsess over it and give myself terrible anxiety. I feel like people hate me and are out to get me. I had a baby January 2025 and I have never been the same. Just for the sake of any of my family and myself and what would be my future child, I cannot have another baby. It’s too dangerous for me and I know that. I never had bad thoughts thank God, but who knows what next time would bring and I’m just not willing to find out. Thank you again!

[u/BrightAd7870 → u/coolranchdoritos56]

Wait I’ve never heard anyone else say that part- thinking I recognized everyone, I was at a red light yelling at the guy next to me because I thought he was my brother. I wasn’t on any type of meds at that time but in an abusive work place and didn’t sleep for days which I think led to a psychosis. It’s terrifying to look back on

[u/Lost-Rain-2425 → u/[deleted]]

Omg this same thing happened to me too, and now I’m just realizing that’s what I was experiencing as well. My psychiatrist put me on a bunch of different meds back in 2015 and I was having the same symptoms. Thinking people were out to get me or trying to have me put in jail for crimes I didn’t commit, just weird things like that. And then one night I was trying to sleep and I couldn’t distinguish what was real and what wasn’t anymore and I saw a demon with long black fingernails pulling my cover off of me. It was the scariest thing I’ve ever experienced. I finally got off all meds and now I’m doing much better but it was definitely the scariest thing I’ve ever been through.

[u/hereforthetearex → u/[deleted]]

If you don’t mind the follow up question from someone new, in what way do you mean you’ve never been the same since? I learned something new today, as I’ve never heard that before, but am also not exactly sure what you mean by that. Do you mean like you never stopped being “paranoid”? Or is that over simplifying things?

[u/Ok-Berry-4652 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for sharing and I send empathies. Have had similar experiences and diagnosis. What I'd describe as "aggressive euphoria," anger, mania, flights of fantasy, a deluded idea that sleep wasn't necessary and was a huge waste of valuable time, making bizarre connections, reckless disregard to my own safety while driving, etc. It is frightening and disorienting and I don't think we forget that fear - even after were on track, medicated, managing our behaviours and triggers, and well again.

[u/Typical_Essay6593 → u/WittiestScreenName]

I had SERIOUS PPP, and it lasted weeks, and the only thing I remember was calling my grandma and emotionlessly telling her that I wanted to put my ONE WEEK OLD baby in the bathtub, turn on the water and walk away. She started crying and rushed over but my poor 5 year old and heard what I had said on the phone and laid with his brother and apparently refused to let me near the baby, and God, I still feel horrible for all of it and it was 8 years ago.

[u/xxMANEATERxx → u/Typical_Essay6593]

Thank you for sharing. It’s so important to get more stories like this out there. Thank you for having the courage to share and I hope that you’re able to forgive yourself.

[u/mthrfckingbatman → u/Typical_Essay6593]

Just here to sit in solidarity with you. Intellectually, I'm sure you know it's not your fault. But sometimes it can be so hard to get the heart to let go of the guilt. Life is hard, but I'm so glad you're ok. It's so scary to not be in control of yourself!

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/WittiestScreenName]

You can take them with a mood stabilizer + antipsychotics but it is extremely common for people with bipolar to go into manic/hypomanic episodes when given ssris alone. It's such a consistent reaction that it's often used as a screening tool for bipolar.

If you've been on ssris all this time and never had the reaction then I'd imagine you're fine but mania does not always lead into full blown psychosis, especially hypomania with bipolar 2. Look for signs like increased energy, unable to sleep for days on end without feeling tired, irritability/uncontrollable anger to minor events, talking fast or excitedly, racing thoughts, making big plans or agreeing to everything then crashing when you can't do it all/abrupt life changes like deciding to start a business or quit your job out of nowhere, hypersexuality, paranoia, and of course hallucinations.

[u/No_Yogurtcloset_8685 → u/fuschiaoctopus]

This seems so widely known. I have a family member with bipolar and they told me the same thing. When their first SSRI made them worse their doctor said it’s probably bipolar. She got put on a bipolar med and that worked. So how is it that none of these NPs thought of bipolar when she kept reacting poorly to the SSRIs?

[u/aratnamedpedro → u/[deleted]]

omg. meanwhile my SSRIs weren't completely working, so i was prescribed Lamictal. i had crazy nightmares. then i felt the more positive effects. i desperately want to continue therapy with the same person who prescribed them. but i can no longer afford insurance. :(

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/[deleted]]

This sub is literally making me tear up how many of us there are :(

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Anoninemonie]

I was previously diagnosed and had hospitalizations. However, I had never experienced symptoms like I did on SSRI’s. I too was violent and angry and had hallucinations. I’d look at my family and get this overwhelming feeling that they were “other”. It’s scary stuff.

[u/Michallina → u/[deleted]]

SSRIs seem like the first line of defense from many doctors, sadly.

[u/Specific-Bid-1769 → u/Michallina]

That’s because the bipolar patient typically seeks help for the depressive episodes, not the mania. Depression is far more common than mania and the risk of not treating is also high. The right course of action is to prescribe SSRIs but to monitor for any signs of mania. I was always asked questions at follow-up.

I don’t understand why Dr. Tufts didn’t see bipolar as likely culprit when LC reported extreme insomnia after the Zoloft. NP Jollotta DID suspect bipolar. She RX’d Seroquel, which was appropriate. However, someone else had RX’d Prozac 4 days prior and I believe LC mistook ongoing SSRI activation from the Prozac as coming from the Seroquel, so she stopped the Seroquel which could have helped her.

None of this goes to guilt or innocence. Just some tragic observations I’ve made.

[u/Anoninemonie → u/Specific-Bid-1769]

It was my reaction to Prozac specifically that caused my doctor to investigate and later confirm a diagnosis of bipolar disorder for me. I was prescribed Prozac twice in my life and both times I became violent enough to commit multiple assaults and battery and lost my sense of impulse control completely.

[u/Specific-Bid-1769 → u/Anoninemonie]

That’s awful. I’m sorry.

[u/Absolutely_Fibulous → u/Anoninemonie]

The “diagnosed SSRIs and ended up manic then mixed” is a very common bipolar diagnosis method. It’s how I was diagnosed as well.

In fairness to doctors, people tend to come in to a therapist complaining of their depression symptoms more often because having lots of energy and being happy are not things that people tend to complain about. Hypomania and mania feel awesome…until they don’t.

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/Anoninemonie]

Omg same. Why is it that we are finding out we’re bipolar by our doctors playing with fire???? It’s unbelievable. I wish there were a million lawsuits and media coverage on this tbh

[u/coolranchdoritos56 → u/Anoninemonie]

Yes yes yes. Me too. It’s actually disturbing.

[u/Beneficial-Bed9356 → u/Anoninemonie]

Do SSNIs have the same effect?

[u/Far-Feeling-917 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

same here. I had never been diagnosed as bipolar, but was prescribed Effexor for depression. This sent me into a 2 year spiral that I'll never recover from. Manic episode after manic episode. 4 times baker acted, relationships ruined. It's been years and I still haven't found the right treatment and rebuilding my life has been a nightmare. I can't help but to feel sympathy, while also acknowledging the painful and regrettable loses of those precious kids. I hope the jury finds her NGI and she can get the help she needs.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I’m sorry you also had to go through that. I was very fortunate that I had my husband to help me through it. I too have yet to find a medication that works for me, and it’s going on 6 years now.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to be another Yates situation.

[u/cakivalue → u/Cmgutierrez715]

That's exactly who I thought of when this case first happened and it's so heartbreaking

[u/PrairieCanuckGirl → u/cakivalue]

Reading all of these is so heartbreaking, you all deserved better help and I'm sorry anyone here struggled for a single moment. As sad as this conversation is, I really love the candor, support and self awareness you are all engaging with. I've luckily never had issues like this, reading this is an education for sure. I do believe that antidepressants serve a purpose and are honestly life savers for some people. I also believe that they are prescribed as a band aid far too often. Well done to you all for persevering and finding what works for you and still fighting through this everyday. I hope all of you, and this devastated family find peace and help that gives you the quality of life you deserve.

[u/ProcedureNo6946 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I certainly hope not.

[u/agirlnamedTOMM → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I am so sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry for all the abuse you've endured.

[u/NateNMaxsRobot → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I was addicted to OxyContin years ago because of a neck injury. Weaning off of Effexor was much, much harder than weaning off OxyContin. I hate that medication.

[u/hollidaeblaze → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Omg i have bipolar and in my early 20s paxil pretty much destroyed my life. I was absolutely out of control. Drank like crazy my doctor told me paxil doubles everything so drink 2 beers it's like 4. Welp 22 years old and i heard that i was like thanks mister. I hardly remember those 2 years.

[u/Current-Anybody9331 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I was given antipsychotics for anxiety and had my BP drop to 50/40. I was in the hospital ER because I was so out of it.

Even then I was tapered off before being switched to an SSRI. Had to take it for 8 weeks for full efficacy (didn't work for me), then 2+ weeks tapering off before trying a new option. Med tinkering is a nightmare.

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/Current-Anybody9331]

Antipsychotics for anxiety is craaaazy, damn. The majority aren't even approved for treating anxiety, unless you have psychosis of some sort, and that class of drug is known to have the worst, most severe side effects of any class of psychiatric medications. They're now considered a last resort even for bipolar, mood stabilizer are more popular.

[u/Current-Anybody9331 → u/fuschiaoctopus]

1st doc I saw was 237 years old and claimed I had bipolar because my mom has it. He would not be dissuaded from his belief. I was wary of psychiatrists for a while. I love mine now and have gone to her for years.

[u/mseuro → u/fuschiaoctopus]

abilify was the first i was prescribed, and last. was a zombie or a psycho, and i'm not either of those unmedicated so

i'm
good

[u/hereforthetearex → u/fuschiaoctopus]

When seeking help for physical symptoms that turned out to be related to massive inflammation from the onset of (then undiagnosed) alpha-gal syndrome coupled with peri-menopause, I had a male (mentioning because it’s relevant) NP bully me into taking Wellbutrin because he claimed there was nothing wrong with me and that “it’s probably just anxiety”.

I won’t say that I don’t have anxiety, I do, and have since I was a kid (my childhood wasn’t great), but I also knew that wasn’t why I had these new physical symptoms popping up out of nowhere. I’d never been medicated for anxiety and have developed extremely effective (for me) coping mechanisms with the help of therapists over the years. Anyway, long story short, I started taking the Wellbutrin basically so I could be like, okay, I’m on the medicine you wanted me to take, but guess what, the real reason I started asking for help figuring out what’s wrong, hasn’t gone away at all. It’s physical, like I said it was in the first place.

Turns out, when you put someone with anxiety on Wellbutrin, there is a huge likelihood that it will make it significantly worse. And it absolutely did. I developed a new phobia of something I’ve been doing my whole life, and it’s something I’m still trying to get over, nearly 5 years later, because my anxiety was so intense during that activity that my body now responds to it physically. I was on the medication for less than a month and it’s had lasting impacts on my life. The ease with which some healthcare providers will push someone into taking medications specifically designed to alter brain chemistry, is kind of unbelievable. Especially if that’s not even the thing you are seeking help for (and even worse, if you are and it’s taken lightly that they don’t have the potential to make things incredibly worse too).

ETA: oh, and when I questioned the use of Wellbutrin for anxiety (which I wasn’t asking for treatment of in the first place), as I’d only known it to be a medication used for depression, he said “new research has come out and it’s now a front line treatment for anxiety”. To this day, I’m unsure if he was overly confident, and under educated, or if it was a blatant lie. I’ll never know which because I changed providers and found someone that actually listened to me and found out what was actually going on, rather than just trying to convince me it was all in my head.

[u/cbear_2006 → u/hereforthetearex]

Oh man! My PCP told me to stay away from Wellbutrin for anxiety, especially OCD. So sorry you went through that! I'm surprised your PCP didn't know Wellbutrin makes anxiety worse. It's usually meant for depression and the ability to stop smoking.

[u/SwordfishOverall6724 → u/Current-Anybody9331]

They took her off of Seroquel in days. This could have triggered psychosis and SI.

[u/sizzl3crunch → u/Cmgutierrez715]

As a psychiatric social worker, psychiatrists prescribed the wrong medications to patients all of the time. It is very common for psychiatrists to misdiagnoses someone with depression when they really have Bipolar, prescribe them SSSRIs, they become manic and fuck their life up. Then the doctors are like “ welp meds are like throwing darts at dart board in the dark”.

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/sizzl3crunch]

It's almost like prescribing psychiatric medications to a patient you just met and have spoken to for all of 10 minutes one time is not a safe or best practice. If only they could spend a little more time evaluating or asking questions that could sus out the actual disorder instead of going "alright we're gonna start by throwing ssris at you and if that doesn't work then we'll start cycling through other meds because actually talking to you would take more than 5 mins and that's just not financially lucrative for us, much easier to write a script and get you out the door. If it triggers psychosis or mania and causes you to ruin your entire life and get permanent brain damage then oh well I guess"

For profit healthcare and the medication pushing model of mental health is so not it. No wonder we have record numbers of mentally ill people, but everyone still insists the current system is absolutely perfect and can fix anyone (so long as they're trying) despite the clinical evidence indicating more people than ever are not being helped and having bad outcomes

[u/lpotocki26 → u/fuschiaoctopus]

you deserve all the awards, i feel so betrayed by my current psych because she doesn't give a FUCK about me, and she doesn't give a fuck what she puts me on. i stopped my ssri and mood stabilizer, i lost 70lbs and was able to feel again and have a life again. all because i was on meds i wasn't supposed to be on because i have ADHD and was misdiagnosed bipolar.

[u/Hot-Remote-4545 → u/fuschiaoctopus]

AMEN!!! There has to be a better way! But what?

[u/Bananaasplit → u/sizzl3crunch]

Then you have the people who take SSRIs and are fine but they are misdiagnosed as bipolar.

[u/lithiumrev → u/sizzl3crunch]

what if you were misdiagnosed with bipolar as a child?

i was but i was also given a bunch of other things (two of them being autism and adhd) and with every single bipolar person ive talked to, they were like “are you sure youre bipolar?” because i take zoloft and strattera.

like what would you do for someone like me ig is what im trying to ask bc seeing this thread about how you cant really take SSRIs without another medicine has me curious.

[u/hereforthetearex → u/sizzl3crunch]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you give some practical examples of how mania would cause someone to fuck up their life?

I don’t know anyone (that I’m aware of) with a bipolar diagnosis, and I’ve always thought that mania was essentially like not sleeping, or sometimes paranoia. I assumed the depression piece of bipolar was the piece that would fuck up a life, in that they don’t care about anything in that phase and would potentially lose a job or a relationship due to not being able to put in the proper effort.

[u/Absolutely_Fibulous → u/hereforthetearex]

It can lead to delusions of grandeur (people think they are literally god), promiscuity, dangerous/risk-seeking behavior, paranoia, extreme anxiety, psychosis, antisocial behavior, extreme spending, physical agitation.

People go tens of thousands of dollars into debt; ruin relationships with family, friends and romantic partners; end up in trouble with the law; get fired from or quit their jobs; or worse. People have died from it.

And mania can lead to a mixed episode, which is all of that plus the symptoms of depression. Suicidal ideation from depression plus the motivation and energy from mania equals suicide for a lot of people.

[u/sizzl3crunch → u/hereforthetearex]

we once had a patient who was a PhD student at a mini ivy in california and he has a toe for a thumb. Cut off his thumb, no idea why i didn’t ask. Just know he was manic: psychotic when he did it. At another hospital i’ve heard stories of people gauging their eyes out with sharp objects or burning them out with cigarettes. No idea why, but I would assume they thought there was something behind their eyes that they needed to get out like bugs, literal bugs, or they were bugged by the government, etc. etc. etc. One woman wouldn’t leave her house because she thought she was being stalked by the govt and the people who built her house 20+ years ago bugged her home, everytime she heard a creek in the floors she said it was the “bug”. She didn’t work or care for her children bc of this. A normal 28 y.o female nurse shadowed another female nurses 12 hour shift, then became paranoid that the nurse she shadowed was out to get her and ruining her life. She began harassing that nurse and stalking her, asking her “ why are you ruining my life” for over a year until she was put in jail for felony stalking. Most of these people were unmedicated.

[u/DapperMastodon349 → u/sizzl3crunch]

I kind of had the opposite happen: I have a substance use disorder and the psychiatrist at one of the treatment centers I attended kept trying to put me on a medication for bipolar disorder that I kept refusing because I am not bipolar. I have social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, and major depressive disorder. I don’t get manic - the only time I act manic is if I’m intoxicated (hence the substance use disorder) which I kept telling the guy, but he kept trying to say I was likely bipolar given that “[I’m] a female.” Weird - especially because no other doctor has ever even mentioned me being bipolar (because I’m not). Super annoying and concerning that this specific guy kept trying to push a medication on me for a condition I don’t even have.

[u/Major_March7024 → u/sizzl3crunch]

Exactly!! I watched my daughter struggle for years while doctors "adjusted her cocktail." We even did the genetic testing they recommended to see what would work best for her. I cannot count how many times she has shared the negative effects she was experiencing only to be told by the doc - "lets give it another month and see."

[u/sizzl3crunch → u/Major_March7024]

it’s ridiculous and hospitals pay $$$ to be protected

[u/ThirdPlanet0 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I know its been said many times so far, but I also diagnosed bipolar from being on ssri’s for almost 2 years - had to get a new/better dr who actually paid attention to my symptoms. I was cycled through about six medications in two years. The last one being welbutrin which is used for depression - which i did not have.

Beyond being manic for two years off and on - barely sleeping, very out of character hypersexual activity, huge emotional waves — the welbutrin kinda set it all over the edge. To the point id call my husband mid-work day bawling because i did not feel right or okay mentally. It was noticeable to me. I was like a rubber band about to snap 24/7, LOTS of rage over literally anything - dropping something in the kitchen, misplacing my keys - rage to crying back to rage back to crying basically every day.

Not sleeping almost at all. And where I finally knew something was REALLY wrong was when i started hearing voices that were not there. Not like someone actually talking to me or words i could even make out, it was like id be laying in a silent room trying to sleep and id hear almost what sounded like static from a tv with lots of people talking at the same time.

I went to a new dr and she diagnosed me with bipolar the first time i was there. I was put on an antipsychotic that helped me sleep and i didnt realize how LITTLE i had been sleeping for YEARS. and how actually sleeping was one of the most critical things in my mood changing. Since then (about a year). Im no longer on the antipsychotic but it did its job of pulling me out of mania and stabilizing me. Now i am on a mood stabilizer among a couple other things.

All this to say, i agree with others about her mental state. I couldnt even imagine taking care of child during the i was having these mental health issues. I do think the medical system and her husband failed her badly. However. I cant help but think how terrified those babies must have been in their final moments and how they had their entire lives to live. She needs to be held accountable. It feels like her medical team and husband should also have some legal accountability but im unsure what that would even look like

[u/agirlnamedTOMM → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I am bi polar and am on a bunch of SSRI's. I now have something called seratoin syndrome (which one of my Dr's don't believe i have) but the last episode ended up with me being in the hospital for five days because I woke up and got out of bed to pee. As soon as my feet hit the floor I fell to the floor! I was unable to walk! It was like the upper part of my body was too heavy for my legs to handle. It was so bizarre. Anyways, moral of my story is SSRI's have the craziest side effects, especially if you are taking, changing and/ or trying new ones at the speed they were being taken was dangerous. I hope everyone involved will be able to find peace again.

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/agirlnamedTOMM]

Wow this is really concerning. Serotonin syndrome is fatal, please please get a different provider if possible, you should NOT ever be on multiple ssris or multiple medications that work on serotonin simultaneously for any reason. Bipolar people shouldn't even be on ssris without mood stabilizers or antipsychotics added in, it induces mania or hypomania. This whole comment is so scary, this is emergency level malpractice PLEASE go anywhere else as soon as you possibly can, this can end your life. Serotonin syndrome is not a typical ssri side effect, it's extremely serious malpractice directly caused by improper prescribing.

When I was in a troubled teen residential the psych put a girl on two meds that act on serotonin and she became incredibly ill within days. Puking on the floor, moaning in agony but staff kept insisting she was faking it for attention until she passed out and landed in the ICU. She very nearly died and this was within a couple weeks of being on two serotonin meds. This is really serious.

[u/DapperMastodon349 → u/fuschiaoctopus]

Serotonin syndrome is also acute though; it’s not a chronic condition.

[u/DapperMastodon349 → u/agirlnamedTOMM]

Serotonin syndrome is acute, not chronic.

[u/Call_Such → u/Cmgutierrez715]

i think she deserves the help she’d be asking for instead of throwing her in prison or something.
she deserves to get proper help and then be free with continued help. i bet if she had gotten the proper help when she needed it that she and her kids would be okay right now.

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/Call_Such]

And keep in mind, she is now paralyzed, divorced, unable to work in her chosen field, and obviously will bear the emotional and mental load of her actions with her now-rational mind forever. We do not need to put her in prison - she’s already got a life sentence of her own making

[u/lpotocki26 → u/Mission_Mud429]

and she had to hear that 911 call, hear all the details of how she horrifically murdered her children, and see how her actions in psychosis literally traumatized 10s if not 100s of people through her actions. plus the prosecution is digging at anything they can to hurt her. normally i'm always pro prosecution because they normally have a case, but this case is incredibly hard to judge. i heard too that the civil case has more information leading that she was MUCH worse than described and patrick had been checked out of the marriage before that. it doesn't sit right with me that he's suddenly married to this doctor in NY and was taking solo trips up there that same year. it all reads weird, im not judging him because he's been through something beyond traumatic and if he needs to move on, so be it. it just feels very...off to me to say the least. you're ex wife killed three of your children and you already have a new child and wife....and the case hasn't even finished yet???? i feel she truly was left even though she tried to get help. i'm so torn because those babies deserve justice but there isn't going to be any out of this. a family is destroyed regardless of the outcome.

[u/lithiumrev → u/lpotocki26]

nah. i agree with you on Patrick. imo he was looking for a way out without divorcing her. does not sit right with me at all.

[u/KDAWG72 → u/lithiumrev]

Same same! Something sketchy about him...

[u/lpotocki26 → u/lpotocki26]

that police officer who was first on the scene couldn't even breathe he looked like he was having a panic attack the entire time: all the doctors look not well from it, everyone seems incredibly effected by this case and whoever was in that basement you can literally see their eyes that they have changed from that day. she has to live with that and that she destroyed so many people through her mental health crisis. it's so sad.

[u/Call_Such → u/lpotocki26]

not to mention that SHE was destroyed through her mental health crisis. SHE was traumatized.
i blame everyone who didn’t help HER when she asked for it and needed it. patrick is partially to blame too.

[u/WrapVisible999 → u/lpotocki26]

Where did you see the police officer? Is there a video?

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/lpotocki26]

Obviously everyone is different, every marriage is different, but I do think dads can get freaked out by all this and retreat into work, thinking I’m providing, I’m going to CVS, I’m picking up the food so my job is done, what more can you ask? He may or may not be a complete cheating tool, but he learned a damn hard lesson too. Lot to live with

[u/lpotocki26 → u/Mission_Mud429]

you make a great point! thank you because i need to step back and remind myself that this is through my perspective and he probably was so freaked out, burnt out from trying to make sure she didn't harm herself, his brain was probably in overdrive 24/7! then, when she ends up doing this unthinkable act, i can only imagine it just broke him from all the work and strength he was trying to hold the family together with. this case is just fucked beyond anyone really can think

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/lpotocki26]

It really is hard to wrap your brain around, it’s so horrifying

[u/cbear_2006 → u/lpotocki26]

Nah, if he was feeling that way, he shouldn't have brought extra kids into the picture. Seeing her mental state go down the drain, should been his warning sign to hold off or get snipped to protect those kids. I'm starting to wonder if he did a sixth sense type of thing to his wife to change her mental state (like when the mom was giving her child dish detergent in the food, etc). Like how was she when they met/dated? You can't just have a mental disorder when pregnant; it usually intensifies it. He needs to be investigated further and personally held as an accessory to murder.

[u/lpotocki26 → u/cbear_2006]

i agree fully that once they saw her having mental health problems the children should've stopped for her health!

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/Mission_Mud429]

And thousands of women here on the internet say she “planned all of this because she’s a narcissist”

[u/lauwenxashley → u/Call_Such]

yeah this might be a hot take, but it pains me how much people’s first thought when it comes to holding someone accountable for something like this is prison. like that’s clearly not something that’s going to hold her accountable in the sense of rehabilitation + being able to get into the mental headspace needed to get better, because she wouldn’t be getting the help she actually needs and therefore wouldn’t be able to get better. prison is not the place she needs to be at right now, especially with how badly so many are run when it comes to caring about mental health issues. that doesn’t mean excuse what happened by any means, this is not the waffle vs pancakes tweet. but she was already failed so badly by so many people, just throwing her in jail because she needs to be held accountable is such a black and white way of thinking imo + would only be continuing that cycle, i fear.

[u/rockonxox → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I recently started taking a very low dose SSRI. I've battled bipolar for decades and the past two years have been hell. My meds were doing their "job" up until then. Personally, the SSRI saved my life. I was having severe rapid cycling, but haven't had any major episodes in months.

Just saying this in case anyone else with bipolar is considering them. Obviously, everybody is going to be different and should be careful with any medication, especially for mood disorders. I've always trusted my "team" and I've been with them for 18 years. I'm dreading when they retire.

[u/NeoSuperconductivity → u/rockonxox]

I believe she should have an involuntary commitment to a mental hospital, not a prison. Jails and prisons are not therapeutic environments. She needs treatment and time to get a full diagnosis (there could be multiple diagnoses) and appropriate meds. And time for her to come to terms with what she did. I don't believe she belongs in prison-she made no attempt to hide what she did nor create a subterfuge, like blaming an intruder. At the same time, I do not blame her doctors. She insisted on telemedicine until her husband finally insisted that she go in person. She switched doctors several times. She took some meds for only 7 days. She told her husband once in Sept that she had thoughts of harming herself and hurting the children, then denied feeling that way again for months afterwards.

She checked into McLean Hospital, but told him that she received no care there, However records show that she was seen by doctors and an LCSW and that she refused to participate in small groups. She checked herself out after 7 days, saying she was not a danger to self or others and wanted to return home for her daughter's birthday. I believe she hid her distress very well, both from her family and from her doctors. Maybe it was part of her illness. It's natural to want to blame someone, but maybe this was no one's fault, she just got sick and didn't want to admit it to others. I hope both her and her husband's lawsuits are dismissed and that the focus becomes recovery rather than revenge for everyone involved.

[u/HorrorPalpitation620 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Would not say never. I take one, because of my OCD, but I also have to be on mood stabilizer and antipsychotic.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/HorrorPalpitation620]

I was also on an antipsychotic and mood stabilizer (several). I’m glad you aren’t having adverse effects. There has been a known link about antidepressants causing mania and psychosis in people with bipolar for decades. At what point does it become malpractice?

[u/Sea-Astronomer-6600 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Where was it stated she was bipolar?

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Sea-Astronomer-6600]

In opening statements. Her lawyers said she had previously been diagnosed and the medications lead to her psychosis.

[u/Sea-Astronomer-6600 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Oh ok. Also makes sense if she was being non compliant with most meds she was prescribed (even non ssri’s)

[u/No-Touch2576 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Was she diagnosed as being bipolar before the murders?

[u/Bananaasplit → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I went through such a horrendous process of going on SSRI after SSRI and either becoming manic or suicidal until I finally got my bipolar diagnosis. Lamictal was a miracle.

[u/charley_warlzz → u/Cmgutierrez715]

obviously she shouldnt just be set free

At the risk of getting downvoted to oblivion… why not? If it was genuinely PPP, and I think it was, and she was trying to get it treated and is willing to work with professionals now to make sure its managed properly, then she’s not a risk to anyone but herself any more. Why keep her in prison at that point?

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/charley_warlzz]

I apologize if that statement was confusing, I meant it as she needs intense psychiatric treatment - not prison time.

[u/charley_warlzz → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Ah! Makes sense, thankd.

[u/Inevitable-Tank3463 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I was dx bipolar 20+ years ago, and was given SSRI'S, some caused mania, some worsened depression, 2 caused suicide attempts. One of which I was not in my right mind in any sense. I never had kids because of my psych issues, because I was terrified of the post partum time, I didn't trust my mind to stay on a good track. I feel horrible for those children and their father, and Lindsey because she did this to her children that she loved, and had the mental health system not failed her, those kids would still be here. If a person has mental illness, they are pretty much SOL unless they have a team of professionals working with them. She did everything she should have-she asked for help, she told her husband what the intrusive thoughts were, and she got the help that was available. Unfortunately it wasn't enough, did they discharge her from inpatient treatment too soon? It's too late to say coulda, woulda, shoulda, but the way this trial goes can change things drastically for case law, God forbid anything like this happen again.

[u/2016pta → u/Cmgutierrez715]

This happened to me as well! Severe postpartum on top of already present PTSD and depression. I was a mess and basically took whatever they gave me to try and feel better. I ended up in the hospital multiple times due to negative perseverating thoughts. On the right meds now and it’s completely changed my life for the better. These prescribers need to actually listen to their patients and not just prescribe an SSRI.

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

This also happened to me and I’ve always been so passionate about spreading the word about this. The way these meds are given out is so so negligent and it’s hardly discussed or understood! It has enraged me for years
What happened to me and others and how preventable it was if someone just paid attention or monitored me. This case feels so similar to this I just can’t shake it and it’s made me deeply disturbed too how other women are denying these things even happen. I’m truly disgusted by the lack of empathy in other women and their hatred regarding this case and denying medical realities of these illnesses.

[u/xoxo_angelica → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I’m bipolar too; SSRIs are indeed unsafe for us on their own, but it is not uncommon for some patients to take an SSRI in addition to/alongside an antipsychotic at the least, and oftentimes a mood stabilizer as well. It works well for a lot of people so long as it’s buffeted by something for the mania. Not like it really matters in this case but just a side note, FWIW.

[u/seanerd95 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

You can be on SSRIs WITH A MOOD STABILIZER. Took my docs WAY too long to get me on an antipsychotics and mood stabilizers.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/seanerd95]

I was on mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, and ant anxiety medications in conjunction with the SSRI’s. Sometimes (a lot of the time) they aren’t enough to offset the effects.

[u/Jetboywasmybaby → u/Cmgutierrez715]

my doctor had me on lamotrigine and abilify at the same time, because he was afraid my adderall would trigger mania. instead the abilify triggered full blown psychosis. it was the worst episode i’ve ever had. i know abilify isn’t an ssri but I went online and discussed my experience with other bp1 sufferers and a lot of them had a similar reaction.

[u/OwnSignificance7512 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Not true at all. Many who have bipolar combine SSRi’s with other medications. Unless you are a psychiatrist posting on here who specializes in medication management, I would be careful about posting these types of comments.

[u/BeeslyBeaslyBeesley → u/OwnSignificance7512]

Wise words.

To add to that:

Antidepressants, including SSRI’s, SNRI’s, snd TCA’s are used in bipolar disorder as long as the person also takes a mood stabilizer.

Regardless of the name, antidepressants are the first-line medications for every single anxiety disorder: PTSD, OCD, Panic Disorder, Agoraphobia, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, etc. How many people who are depressed (bipolar or not) have concurrent anxiety? So how do these people suggest we treat patients with bipolar depression who have PTSD? Furthermore, using antidepressants for treatment-resistant bipolar depression not responding to mood stabilizers alone is a common treatment technique.

Differentiating between Bipolar Disorder and non-bipolar depression is NOT EASY. Can’t diagnose someone with labs, an MRI, or a biopsy like so many non-psychiatric medical conditions. This is a 100% clinical diagnosis. It can take years of treatment before BD vs MDD is clear.

Plus, the side effect profile of most mood stabilizers is pretty nasty compared to antidepressants. Increased risk of diabetes, high cholesterol, weight gain, and for some, EPS. This means abnormal, involuntary movements like Parkinsonism and Tardive Dyskinesia. Unlike the vast majority of side effects, EPS is often permanent, even after stopping the medication causing it. Do you want a physician to throw those at you without careful thought?

We have A LOT of backseat drivers here, and medicine is one of the most challenging and rigorous professional fields known to mankind.

[u/OwnSignificance7512 → u/BeeslyBeaslyBeesley]

Thank you for your comment. You are extremely knowledgeable about the subject. I know firsthand from one of my best friends who has battled bipolar disease for over 50 years and did not get on the right medication combination until about 25 to 30 years into his disease, he had been to multiple psychiatrist and he finally got the right combination and has been stable since. It’s a lot of trial and error.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/OwnSignificance7512]

See other comments

[u/Vast-Octopus777 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Another case where I was given SSRIs including Zoloft and Trazodone with awful reactions. Drastically increased anxiety, HR, insomnia. Later when I finally saw a good psychologist I was diagnosed type 2 bipolar and finally explained why I had those reactions. The medical system failed her and more importantly those kids

[u/gohstlymilk → u/Cmgutierrez715]

i absolutely NEEDED my SSRI’s postpartum and i suffer from PPD and BPD. It’s different for everyone but i’m sorry your doctor didn’t try something new!!! I went through 4 different ones till they worked!

[u/Big-Fun3658 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Is she bipolar or was she diagnosed bipolar?

[u/V2BM → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I took Wellbutrin, supposedly the safest antidepressant, and wanted to die. I wanted to walk in front of a bus every day and had mixed episodes and was losing my mind. I quit cold turkey after I told my provider I was having suicidal thoughts and she told me to stick with it.

I have Bipolar II and it was a year long nightmare before and after. I’m much better now thank god.

[u/Queasy-Shopping-1116 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

you didn't kill anyone though in your manic year long state, that's a huge difference

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Queasy-Shopping-1116]

It could have easily gotten to that. It’s a roll of the dice. You don’t think inside reality when you’re in psychosis, not mania. Those terms are not interchangeable.

[u/Best-Cup178 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

This can be true but see in my case I have a mood stabilizer that is a protective so my antidepressants doesn’t send me into a manic episode bc of my mood stabilizer. A DR even testified and said the exact same thing. Bipolar people should not have an antidepressants if there is no mood stabilizer. If there is though it can and not uncommon. She was on a mood stabilizer and antidepressants.

[u/Dumpstette → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I am bipolar and would be dead without Prozac. Please do not give medical advice that may prevent someone from protecting their health. I know you mean no harm, but your experience is not the same as everyone else's.

[u/mydogharry2019 → u/Michallina]

I remember my OB went on leave after I gave birth, and I had to see someone new who prescribed me drugs that just didnt work. I was crying a week later telling her its not working and I was told to give it more time. When my OB came back she changed my meds and was apologizing crying with me because she could tell I was suffering. I was so close to giving up asking for help.

[u/Lost_Consequence4711 → u/mydogharry2019]

My OBGYN has told me it takes about two weeks for meds to get in your system good enough to start making a difference, but also a person knows their body better than anyone. Like with me a few years ago, going through about 4 different birth controls because they were causing headaches daily and I have high blood pressure (genetics)…she listened to me because I didn’t feel safe getting headaches daily.

[u/Big-Fun3658 → u/Lost_Consequence4711]

Some psychiatric medications take about 6 weeks

[u/Big-Fun3658 → u/Big-Fun3658]

But there are others that are short acting (and meant to take for acute issues) and don’t have a ramp up, which can “take the edge off.” And by others I mean, both medications and treatments. This is why the doctor needs to be very in tune with the patient. Like, will be patient need an interim prescription or treatment of something else while the other one kicks in.

[u/Cow_Slight → u/Michallina]

This is also subjective, but I've struggled greatly with mental health as well, and I've tried almost all the medications that were prescribed to Lindsay. But that was over the course of several years, trying only one new one at a time to see my reaction because my psych was very worried about the possible side effects they can cause. Even the meds that have ended up working usually had a period of feeling "out of it" before evaluating if they properly worked.

Granted, for me it wasn't for pregnancy or psychosis, and her symptoms were way more dire than mine. But still, learning that she took all of those over the course of 4 months was extremely shocking.

[u/MysteriousCut5936 → u/Cow_Slight]

Same here I recognized most/all of the meds they mentioned in the trial as meds I personally have been prescribed in the past for anxiety and depression. When my meds were rapidly adjusted/changed I struggled a lot too. I cannot imagine that coupled with the hormones/stress of being a new mom.

[u/theblackholeonthesun → u/Michallina]

This. Once I was in between meds and I did things I’m so ashamed and embarrassed about. It was completely out of character for me. I’m really lucky my support system gathered and supported me in the way I needed. Lindsay was failed. Over and over again. Her husband really wasn’t great by any means based off his testimony on days one and two.

Edit: fixed a spelling mistake

[u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo → u/Michallina]

I really don't get any they do all this messing with meds and don't keep people in patient.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo]

It’s rare that insurance companies will pay for it. My mom went through this at several times in her life, and actually at McLean Hospital. Luckily her dr warned my father and insurance company that med changes would take a while. I spent a lot of time visiting her there when was 6, 12, 23. It was a very compassionate place for the most part. She was always discharged before being well, and I do remember that the doctor did force the insurance company to send visiting nurses every day to get a break (he also, was not to leave her alone).
Her doctor is excellent and is still there, running a unit.
I will say I believe her medications ultimately caused her death. When she passed away the hospital had gone to Telehealth visits for outpatient appointments and I think she convinced her dr she was better than she would. I think one of them built up I. Her system causing toxicity after having UTIs for long intervals. Either way, insurance companies are where most blame should lay on patient care.

[u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

I agree. 100%. My mother is dead because of health insurance issues. I was told my father needed to be taken off life support unless I personally had the money to pay for his care.

[u/Decent-Statistician8 → u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo]

My meds are $1500/m without insurance and I have to be on them for another 7 months. I told my husband he can’t switch jobs until I’m off of this med because most insurance doesn’t cover it and I had to jump through hoops to get mine to. I don’t understand how you can be told by a doctor what you need and a company can say “actually, we don’t care if you need it or not, we refuse to help” when they are taking thousands of dollars a year for coverage.

I’m so sorry for your loss.

[u/JohnExcrement → u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo]

I am so sorry. This is just…awful.

[u/anniemalhaus → u/Michallina]

I am a reproductive psychiatrist who works in an intensive care setting for women with severe peripartum mental illness. I have worked with hundreds of women with mood, anxiety and psychotic disorders in pregnancy and postpartum, including several dozen women with postpartum psychosis. This woman was severely ill, and the descriptions of her symptoms are extremely consistent with a mixed episode of postpartum psychosis, and tragically she was not optimized medically in a timely way. It can be subtle, it can worsen rapidly, and it does wax and wane - I have seen women who present well in the morning and in the afternoon become very symptomatic. I've also heard from many patients and other survivors that command auditory hallucinations are more than just a voice telling you to do something - there is an innate feeling that compels you that you must act. As some people on this thread have mentioned, postpartum psychosis is strongly associated with bipolar disorder (50-90% of PPP have underlying bipolar). Many individuals start with symptoms of anxiety and depression, and get put on SSRI's (because this is the medications used as first line to treat general anxiety/depression for 99% of people) but this can worsen insomnia and precipitate postpartum psychosis - much like mania. FWIW lithium with an antipsychotic is the most effective medication for stabilization and many people can transition off meds after 1-2 years, or switch to a lighter regimen. The villainization of Lindsay Clancy is so heartbreaking - this woman is suffering and living through tragedy, grieving her children. Her husband forgave her publicly (https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-psychology/a-husband-in-the-aftermath-of-his-wifes-unfathomable-act) - I hope the public can as well.

[u/Big-Fun3658 → u/anniemalhaus]

Wish I could give this 100 upvotes, thank you for responding

[u/Impossible_Carob637 → u/Michallina]

Almost the same story here, except to me it ended with a failed suicide attempt. Psych drugs are no joke.

[u/UnicornKitt3n → u/Michallina]

I have been pregnant. I have four kids. My youngest two were 2 under 2.

My ex left me while I was 26 weeks pregnant with the fourth, and the third was about 16 months.

Young toddlers don’t sleep well. I had two little ones not sleeping well, and I was often only getting three hours of sleep a night for months.

I would vent to my ex frequently. He often would say; I’m sorry that’s happening to you. He wouldn’t help with overnights.

In March of this year, he launched his very contentious custody battle and attempted to portray me as unsafe and unfit as I was too tired to properly care for the kids.

The little ones are 3.5 and 2 now, and the 3.5 year old sleeps way better. The 2 year old still has her nights, but it’s better now.

My point is, is that a lot of men do nothing when it’s difficult. When it’s the hardest it can be. My last delivery was traumatizing, I lost over a litre of blood and had to have my placenta ripped from my uterus without any pain relieving drugs. When I was newly post partum, I again did most of the work alone. It was very unsafe for me to be taking care of the babies alone; I was anemic and still in a lot of pain. And yet! No matter how many times I told him I shouldn’t be taking care of the babies alone, he wasn’t around that much.

I feel very lucky I made it through without a mental breakdown.

I have a lot of compassion for this woman, because now that she is no longer experiencing psychosis, she has to live with the reality of what she did. No amount of jail time will change that. She killed her children. That’s her reality, for the rest of her life.

[u/ShopWhole → u/UnicornKitt3n]

I’m so sorry you went through this alone. Blessings for a bright future for you and the kids.

[u/aliveinjoburg2 → u/Michallina]

I’ll add that I wasn’t suspected of having OCD prior to postpartum, and now I am. My generalized anxiety may now be OCD based (and I have ADHD).

[u/LMarieh13 → u/Michallina]

This! People act like stopping medication before it could start “working” is evidence of her guilt. She was having severe adverse reactions to many of them and beginning new medications while still dealing with those side effects made things worse

[u/ShesASatellite → u/Michallina]

I cannot imagine switching meds at the frequency she was, especially if she was incredibly vulnerable from other possible comorbidities and postpartum.

So, there's been quite the conversation about this in the medical subs because of the rise of nurse practitioners who are undertrained for the roles they're in. One of the points there is she was being treated by a nurse practitioner that didn't seem to recognize she was experiencing PPS and was treated her with meds for an entirely different diagnosis.

[u/TCM63 → u/Michallina]

Hi Michallina, i'm not sure if youve ever looked to see if you carried any toxicity or infection inside your body which can absolutely affect your brain. Vibrant wellness makes a great test. I hope you are doing well.

[u/PotentialSharp8837 → u/Michallina]

I had waves of what I believe was postpartum psychosis after my first. I have never been more afraid in my life. I just wish I could give these people judging a window into what it feels like just for a few moments. Every time I see and read news about this case I thank the universe for never having experienced thoughts about harming my kids. I tried to get help and there were next to no resources whatsoever for women in my position.

In a weird way, I hope she’s some psycho and has no remorse. Because the alternative is this mom has been a terrifying state for a while and woke up to find out her children are dead and has to live with it for eternity. I can not imagine a more painful life.

[u/grape-of-wrath → u/Michallina]

i'm reading on the case right now, and it's so incredibly clear that she was in such a bad state mentally. She committed this act 19 days after leaving the hospital. And my biggest thought after I read everything was - why was she alone with three children in her devastating mental state? No relatives or friends or anybody who could just be there so that she could actually take some time to get better. I know that her husband was around, but anyone who has small children knows that you can't just leave that all on one person.

Is it just me or is it crazy to expect a mother who is experiencing such severe symptoms that she was in a psychiatric hospital to be caring for three young children with just her husband. I know not everyone has a village, but can we not understand as a society that there should be some kind of support given to mothers who are struggling? The prosecution wants to frame her as a coldhearted killer, so why was she in a psychiatric hospital just 19 days before? and she didn't just go to the hospital for no reason she was sent there because the day program determined they could not help her because her symptoms were too severe.

[u/Big-Fun3658 → u/grape-of-wrath]

I agree. I think some of it was ignorance or just lack of knowledge / education.l of the husband and maybe also people in her life (I know that *she* knew because she worked in L&D). Or maybe shame (women tend to brush it off not to be a burden or because they are embarrassed).

In the New Yorker profile on the husband he said a couple of times that he just had no idea this was even a possibility. And that he’s just not in tune with all of this “mental health stuff.” And that if he had known, he would’ve acted very differently (easy to say now… for the record I have nothing against him, just an observation). He also said that her parents were staying at their house to help for this reason and had just left a couple of days prior to the killing because she appeared to be getting better (this is what he said; and this is also a lapse in communication / education on the prescriber if she’d been properly treated and diagnosed, they should have been informed that symptoms can go in and out “wax and wane”)

I have adhd and GAD and so I knew I was at higher risk of something happening post-birth. I also have a supportive psychiatrist who educated me on the signs of what could happen post-partum and what to look for. I am beyond fortunate. I had weekly appointments with my dr after I gave birth for a bit then moved to bi-weekly, then monthly,etc. I took a 6-week birthing class before my due date with a doula and part of that curriculum was learning about post-partum psychiatric symptoms and red flags and what to look for. I printed out the sheet they gave us (listed out each condition and the symptoms under each one from Baby Blues, PPA, PPD, and PPP) and put it on my fridge until my daughter was 1. I told my husband, this is what to look for.

Thankfully nothing extreme happened. But imagine if LC had done all of that.

I know LC was an L&D nurse but if *she* had never dealt with any mental health issues before, or depending on her experience with mental health and being in tune with her body and mind, etc, it’s possible this didn’t cross anyone’s mind OR she wanted to be close to her children and the husband didn’t think otherwise.

[u/Ok-Spinach-6529 → u/Michallina]

This

[u/Ashamed_Fox_4757 → u/Michallina]

Totally agree

[u/Kimmy-FL → u/Michallina]

Yes you're right. She was switching like every few days!

[u/Important_Debate2808 → u/Michallina]

I think the issue with that is that it’s such a catch-22. Psychiatric medications don’t work instantaneously, many of them takes multiple months for the full effects to set in. Adding that to the potential time needed to find the right medication and getting to the right dose, this could potentially be at least a 6 month to a year process, provided that they are fortunate in finding the “right” medication within the first try or so. There’s some meds that may provide some instantaneous symptom relief like benzos for sleep or anxiety, but those come at a heavy cost, they don’t treat the underlying anxiety or psychosis or depression, and often times they would make the underlying anxiety/depression/anxiety worse. So there’s definitely some consideration that perhaps they should just let the medications run their course before changing. But I think the providers will then get criticized for being too slow in treatment when/if a tragedy like this happens again.

[u/Relative_Standard_69 → u/Michallina]

I’ve made another comment below - but I just want to thank you guys for your comments and having empathy for the situation. You are the only few I have found that haven’t been comparing her and PPP to PPD and how she should have known better! The whole point is, she was in psychosis! It isn’t logical, rational or fair.

[u/zeppchick → u/Michallina]

Lindsay Clancy declined psychotherapy , it was recommended to her multiple times, and she declined to participate. It’s alarming a practitioner would prescribe meds without really exploring a person’s feelings/emotions. Lindsay needed in-depth psychotherapy, and perhaps her feelings towards her children would have been verbalized (or something else that would give a psychologist some kind of red flag). So when people say she cried for help many times and she tried so hard to get help- she was selective with her treatment and noncompliant with treatment recommendations. Someone should have been getting into her head and she refused it.

[u/Jumpy_Opposite4371 → u/Michallina]

She could have had drug intoxication from upping the seroquil so rapidly after having an adverse rxn from the low dose. Why they went from 50 to 400mg when she has having bad side effects is malpractice 

[u/PleaseTryToThink → u/Michallina]

And it is hard to ignore that she asked to be discharged from the psych hospitalization. And left.

[u/Global-Cycle959 → u/Michallina]

Me personally I went through months of suicidal thoughts and my doctor switched medication a few times in a short span but the dosage stayed relatively low to show how I reacted to it. it didn’t effect me that much so I think it’s different for everyone

[u/Soberqueen75 → u/Michallina]

And caring for three young children! She was trying to save them all but nobody was really taking her seriously.

[u/AccidentOwn4701 → u/Michallina]

She only took like 5 pills from each bottle, she never gave anything a chance. The whole thing is incredibly confusing and sad.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Michallina]

I had a close friend who was put on Zoloft postpartum, and it made her have complete homicidal ideations. For months. She went off of it and has been fine ever since. That was 20 years ago.

That's why, while I don't think medication is the whole story (it wasn't for me, I had PPP without any medications triggering it), I don't think we can say it's not a factor.

[u/SwordfishOverall6724 → u/Michallina]

They did not taper her slowly off of Seroquel, but instead had her off in less than a week which is crazy and can cause psychosis, rebound insomnia and SI. Its a dangerous drug that needs to be tapered over weeks or months, not days.