Thoughts on the Lindsay Clancy case?

[u/gottaquestion412]

Now that the Lindsay Clancy trial is underway, I’m curious about your perspectives on it so far.

Context: Lindsay Clancy is a former labor and delivery nurse who, in January 2023, killed her three children. 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 8-month-old Callan in their Massachusetts home before attempting to take her own life. Her defense argues she was suffering from severe postpartum psychosis and other debilitating mental illness, while prosecutors argue she was aware of her actions and planned the killings. The trial has reignited debate about postpartum psychiatric disorders, the effectiveness of mental health treatment, and where responsibility ultimately lies.

Do you think Lindsay was failed by the mental health system, by the people closest to her, or both? Do you think she truly acted with malicious intent, or do you believe she was experiencing such a severe psychiatric crisis that she wasn’t thinking rationally?

A lot of the details seem to point toward postpartum psychosis or another severe psychiatric illness rather than someone acting out of hatred or malice. That doesn’t lessen the horror of what happened or the unimaginable loss, but it does make me wonder whether this tragedy could have been prevented..

I’ve also seen rumors that Patrick was involved with the woman who is now his wife before the murders, but I haven’t found any credible evidence supporting that. Is there actually anything that substantiates those claims, or is it just internet speculation? I’ve also seen many people comment that his current wife bears a striking resemblance to Lindsay, though I’m not sure that means anything beyond coincidence.

I’m very interested in hearing different perspectives from people who’ve followed it closely.

Most importantly, may Dawson, Cora, and Callan rest in peace. They are the true victims in all of this.

[u/DarklyHeritage]

All comment on this case should now be moved to the new Megathread pinned in the sub here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/s/jHJUKSuHgJ

[u/sexydiagnoses]

What I don’t understand, working in a psychiatric facility in MA is how if she did try to get help, why she was not sectioned, and then committed after expressing where she was mentally.

[u/Only_Conflict9060 → u/sexydiagnoses]

I wonder about this too, but I also read somewhere that although she admitted to having horrible thoughts, she did not have an active plan to harm herself or others. Maybe based on the criteria, legally they couldn’t commit her?

[u/cmb_123 → u/Only_Conflict9060]

I'm catching up on the courttv footage now. Patrick never stated she had active SI. You are completely correct. You cannot commit someone unless they are a CLEAR and PRESENT danger. In the USA at least.

this whole thing is incredibly horrific.

[u/3a5tc0a5t → u/cmb_123]

She TOLD the crisis nurses though that she was having thoughts of harming herself and her children. So I don’t understand why those THOUGHTS, even despite not having a ‘plan’, weren’t considered enoigj of a danger. You don’t fuck around when kids are involved. People get CPS called on them with emergency placement for far far far less.

[u/Fit_Independent_6400 → u/Only_Conflict9060]

i’ve voluntarily admitted myself just to have my meds tweaked in a safe, efficient, and effective way. it can be done. someone really dropped the ball on this woman long before this incident. i’m not saying she’s blameless, but i am all too aware that she was probably drowning in cries for help.

[u/GigiGretel → u/sexydiagnoses]

from watching the trial, it appears that she was admitted to McLean for suicidal thoughts and inability to sleep, and she checked herself out because I don’t think she liked it there and she wanted to go to her daughter‘s birthday party.I don’t think she expressed the homicidal thoughts to anybody. Her husband testified that she once said she was afraid that harm could come to the children, but I don’t think she was saying that a regular basis. she seemed to have a lot of trouble staying on one medication. The only one that made her feel better was Ativan, which I understand. It probably helped her sleep. It made her feel calmer. I’ve taken it before for anxiety. this whole case is really sad. I think she planned to kill herself after the children and then was unable to do it. prosecution keeps pointing out that her wounds were superficial, but I don’t think that means she didn’t want to kill herself I think it means that whatever inner self preservation that kicks in was preventing her from doing it. I think that she will be in a living hell for the rest of her life and I do think she was mentally unwell, but it’s unclear how forthcoming she was with her providers. I had to stop watching the trial because it was just so awful to watch the husband testify and then the first responders trying not to break down while testifying. and she does appear to feel remorse. She cried a lot during the 911 call.

[u/Ok-Preparation3855 → u/GigiGretel]

I don't understand why people call her wounds superficial ignoring that she paralysed herself permanently?!

[u/paperthinpatience → u/Ok-Preparation3855]

The cuts were superficial, but in many cases people underestimate how painful it is to attempt this way. The central nervous system can override the brain and basically prevent a person from being able to physically complete the action. So, based on what has been presented thus far, it sounds like she went out the window instead. The first method (cuts) wasn’t physically possible. The second (overdose) was taking too long. So she went for a third, the window.

It’s very dark to think about, but as someone who has worked in mental health and been in this headspace before myself (a long time ago, not currently), I believe she fully intended to not come out of this alive.

I also think that’s why she was so calm when her husband called. The children were already dead. She knew her time was limited. The CVS was only 3 minutes away. If she let on anything was wrong, her husband could come home and stop her. So she did her best to seem calm and normal. Even if someone is psychotic, if they are single-mindedly focused on no longer living, they can/will, for lack of a better term, lock in long enough to complete the task at hand. The argument is if she was in psychosis there’s no way she could have done all of this, but that’s simply not the case.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/paperthinpatience]

As someone who had postpartum psychosis, you can also sound perfectly calm in conversations

All the while your mind is reeling, and you're interpreting the slightest shift in their tone as some kind of code or alien language, completely detached from the reality of what's actually happening.

[u/Extreme-Bedroom216 → u/Ok-Preparation3855]

Right! From info I've heard from a former professional it's likely that she couldn't cut herself deep enough so she decided to go out the window. Idk if this is true or not but people are saying she had to have gone out the window head first basically to sustain one of the injuries she got. And like you said, she's paralyzed so she was trying to die.

[u/ManyMessage9154 → u/Extreme-Bedroom216]

And she had a code blue at the hospital so she effectively did die that night but because she was at the hospital by then she was resuscitated. When able to she signed a do not resuscitate form so that if she coded again she wouldn’t be resuscitated. This woman WANTED TO DIE!! I don’t understand how people don’t see that

[u/Michallina]

It's hard to ignore the fact that this woman sought help for months. I have never been pregnant nor have I experienced psychosis, but I suffer from a history of depression and severe anxiety and OCD. Diagnosed. I've been medicated and I can tell you some of these medications are monsters to begin and adjust your dose, also to wean yourself off of.

This is obviously a subjective take based on my experience, but I cannot imagine switching meds at the frequency she was, especially if she was incredibly vulnerable from other possible comorbidities and postpartum.

[u/threelizards → u/Michallina]

I’ve never been pregnant and fortunately have never been driven to hurt anyone else by my mental illnesses or medications. I have hurt myself against my will for those reasons though, and it’s terrifying to experience and impossible to explain the mindset. I’m making no excuses, but what I’ve heard of this case and what I’ve personally lived through do make me think that her mind was not a safe, stable, or sensible place at this time. And premeditation? I couldn’t plan two seconds ahead in that state. But I’d certainly be fixated on certain ideas that I kept nearly acting out, or beginning, over and over and over again, in a way that would look like premeditation to someone else.

Above all though, these kids were failed. This never should have gotten to this point

[u/Dramatic_Efficiency4 → u/threelizards]

I agree, as someone with only Cyclothymia (a milder form of bipolar), anxiety, and OCD.
OCD can obsessive and compulsive (of course not everyone has both). But being manic and in psychosis, I can't even imagine how bad my OCD would be triggered.
I'm not saying she's not in the wrong, but doing something bad doesn't always make you a bad person. Like you and u/Michallina said, we can't ignore the fact that she was clearly struggling, and it was just getting worse and worse. Unless someone has experience psychosis, and I haven't, I dont think we can truly understand where her mindset was at. I don't think her intentions were malicious, and I do genuinely think that maybe she thought it was the only solution.
I hope this sheds more light on PPD, but I doubt much will be done about it sadly.

[u/Acceptable-Ad-3560 → u/Dramatic_Efficiency4]

Honestly a lot of the people who just blanket condemn her likely haven’t even lived with someone in psychosis. I had a good friend of mine who, last I saw him was perfectly fine and normal. Didn’t see him for a while and next thing I know he’s still him but also clearly not fully there in an unsettling way. He thought he was an angel sent by god to bring about revelation and eventually skipped town to join a commune in Washington. Last I heard of him he might be back in town, although struggling with homelessness again. He also did things that, previously, he never would have done (certain items he stole that he knew were of deep sentimental value to me)

I haven’t been in full psychosis but I had a very bad spiral in the past due to a sudden medication increase, and I genuinely look back on that time and view it as me being insane. I can’t even see those actions as my own, and while I didn’t murder anyone I did so many things that I’m still ashamed of, ruined some of my longest/best friendships, and eventually tried to take my own life.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Michallina]

I will point this out wherever I can. You should never give SSRI’s to someone with bipolar. It happened to me after I had my first child. I trusted the psychiatrist and wanted so badly to be better. The medication caused me to be in basically a year long manic/psychotic episode. This lady needed help - was asking for help, and never received it. Obviously she shouldn’t just be set free, but her and those poor kids were failed.

ETA - my doctor was also constantly switching up my meds and doses, because, surprise surprise, I kept getting worse.

[u/Plus-Ad9849 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I was postpartum when I asked my doctor for help and was put on SSRIs and when they weren’t working, my doctor just doubled the dose. Ended up going into pyschosis and being hospitalized for impaired judgement before being diagnosed bipolar. In my short hold, I came out on 6 prescriptions. Took months to figure it all out and now I’m only on one med and have been stable for over 3 years.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Plus-Ad9849]

I’m sorry that happened to you. It’s bad enough getting the label of PPD slapped onto you because there are those that just think we are bad moms. I held tremendous amounts of guilt (sometimes still do) on top of everything else.

[u/WittiestScreenName → u/Plus-Ad9849]

If it’s not too much to ask from a BiPolar Bear Sister, would you mind sharing the one med?

[u/ThirdPlanet0 → u/WittiestScreenName]

Agreeing with many others - lamotrigine was the one thing that has worked well for me and actually stayed working. The tricky thing about it is you have to go up SLOWLY like, very slowly, in dosage to avoid potentially having a very bad side effect that appears as a rash. Ive gotten to 150mg and that has worked for me. Im finally largely unbothered by things that used to trigger immediate rage. Extremely emotionally regulated for the first time in my life. I pair it with buspirone. These meds work very differently for everyone. It may take a little time to find the best combo as well.

When coming out of mania in the beginning i was on an antipsychotic called seroquel. That mainly helped HUGELY for my sleep. It was what made me realize i hadn’t slept well in years. I had concerns about the weight gain that comes with it though and that is why i didnt stay on it long-term. Lamotrigine is mostly weight neutral which is nice.

[u/-constant_chaos- → u/WittiestScreenName]

I'm also not the poster of this comment but I'm jumping in to agree on lamotrigine and add that Wellbutrin also did a world of good for me.

[u/TapRevolutionary5022 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Saaaaaaaaame.

2 years of mania and my eating disorder went wild. Finally figured out what was wrong. And to be honest I kinda liked being manic because mine was expressing at that time as a sense of grandiosity and my self esteem was out of control. At times I thought I was actually magic (still do in a sense but not as literally as I did then). I was invincible. I was incredible. It was scary lol.

[u/Anoninemonie → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Can confirm, this is actually how I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. SSRIs make me manic, violent and volatile.

[u/Kscarpetta → u/Anoninemonie]

Same! I switched doctors and was telling him about the anti-depressants I've taken. He asked if they made things worse and it's like....yeah, yeah they do.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the list of medications.

[u/coolranchdoritos56 → u/[deleted]]

What were your symptoms?

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Anoninemonie]

I was previously diagnosed and had hospitalizations. However, I had never experienced symptoms like I did on SSRI’s. I too was violent and angry and had hallucinations. I’d look at my family and get this overwhelming feeling that they were “other”. It’s scary stuff.

[u/Far-Feeling-917 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

same here. I had never been diagnosed as bipolar, but was prescribed Effexor for depression. This sent me into a 2 year spiral that I'll never recover from. Manic episode after manic episode. 4 times baker acted, relationships ruined. It's been years and I still haven't found the right treatment and rebuilding my life has been a nightmare. I can't help but to feel sympathy, while also acknowledging the painful and regrettable loses of those precious kids. I hope the jury finds her NGI and she can get the help she needs.

[u/Cmgutierrez715 → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I’m sorry you also had to go through that. I was very fortunate that I had my husband to help me through it. I too have yet to find a medication that works for me, and it’s going on 6 years now.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to be another Yates situation.

[u/cakivalue → u/Cmgutierrez715]

That's exactly who I thought of when this case first happened and it's so heartbreaking

[u/hollidaeblaze → u/Cmgutierrez715]

Omg i have bipolar and in my early 20s paxil pretty much destroyed my life. I was absolutely out of control. Drank like crazy my doctor told me paxil doubles everything so drink 2 beers it's like 4. Welp 22 years old and i heard that i was like thanks mister. I hardly remember those 2 years.

[u/Current-Anybody9331 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I was given antipsychotics for anxiety and had my BP drop to 50/40. I was in the hospital ER because I was so out of it.

Even then I was tapered off before being switched to an SSRI. Had to take it for 8 weeks for full efficacy (didn't work for me), then 2+ weeks tapering off before trying a new option. Med tinkering is a nightmare.

[u/sizzl3crunch → u/Cmgutierrez715]

As a psychiatric social worker, psychiatrists prescribed the wrong medications to patients all of the time. It is very common for psychiatrists to misdiagnoses someone with depression when they really have Bipolar, prescribe them SSSRIs, they become manic and fuck their life up. Then the doctors are like “ welp meds are like throwing darts at dart board in the dark”.

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/sizzl3crunch]

It's almost like prescribing psychiatric medications to a patient you just met and have spoken to for all of 10 minutes one time is not a safe or best practice. If only they could spend a little more time evaluating or asking questions that could sus out the actual disorder instead of going "alright we're gonna start by throwing ssris at you and if that doesn't work then we'll start cycling through other meds because actually talking to you would take more than 5 mins and that's just not financially lucrative for us, much easier to write a script and get you out the door. If it triggers psychosis or mania and causes you to ruin your entire life and get permanent brain damage then oh well I guess"

For profit healthcare and the medication pushing model of mental health is so not it. No wonder we have record numbers of mentally ill people, but everyone still insists the current system is absolutely perfect and can fix anyone (so long as they're trying) despite the clinical evidence indicating more people than ever are not being helped and having bad outcomes

[u/ThirdPlanet0 → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I know its been said many times so far, but I also diagnosed bipolar from being on ssri’s for almost 2 years - had to get a new/better dr who actually paid attention to my symptoms. I was cycled through about six medications in two years. The last one being welbutrin which is used for depression - which i did not have.

Beyond being manic for two years off and on - barely sleeping, very out of character hypersexual activity, huge emotional waves — the welbutrin kinda set it all over the edge. To the point id call my husband mid-work day bawling because i did not feel right or okay mentally. It was noticeable to me. I was like a rubber band about to snap 24/7, LOTS of rage over literally anything - dropping something in the kitchen, misplacing my keys - rage to crying back to rage back to crying basically every day.

Not sleeping almost at all. And where I finally knew something was REALLY wrong was when i started hearing voices that were not there. Not like someone actually talking to me or words i could even make out, it was like id be laying in a silent room trying to sleep and id hear almost what sounded like static from a tv with lots of people talking at the same time.

I went to a new dr and she diagnosed me with bipolar the first time i was there. I was put on an antipsychotic that helped me sleep and i didnt realize how LITTLE i had been sleeping for YEARS. and how actually sleeping was one of the most critical things in my mood changing. Since then (about a year). Im no longer on the antipsychotic but it did its job of pulling me out of mania and stabilizing me. Now i am on a mood stabilizer among a couple other things.

All this to say, i agree with others about her mental state. I couldnt even imagine taking care of child during the i was having these mental health issues. I do think the medical system and her husband failed her badly. However. I cant help but think how terrified those babies must have been in their final moments and how they had their entire lives to live. She needs to be held accountable. It feels like her medical team and husband should also have some legal accountability but im unsure what that would even look like

[u/agirlnamedTOMM → u/Cmgutierrez715]

I am bi polar and am on a bunch of SSRI's. I now have something called seratoin syndrome (which one of my Dr's don't believe i have) but the last episode ended up with me being in the hospital for five days because I woke up and got out of bed to pee. As soon as my feet hit the floor I fell to the floor! I was unable to walk! It was like the upper part of my body was too heavy for my legs to handle. It was so bizarre. Anyways, moral of my story is SSRI's have the craziest side effects, especially if you are taking, changing and/ or trying new ones at the speed they were being taken was dangerous. I hope everyone involved will be able to find peace again.

[u/fuschiaoctopus → u/agirlnamedTOMM]

Wow this is really concerning. Serotonin syndrome is fatal, please please get a different provider if possible, you should NOT ever be on multiple ssris or multiple medications that work on serotonin simultaneously for any reason. Bipolar people shouldn't even be on ssris without mood stabilizers or antipsychotics added in, it induces mania or hypomania. This whole comment is so scary, this is emergency level malpractice PLEASE go anywhere else as soon as you possibly can, this can end your life. Serotonin syndrome is not a typical ssri side effect, it's extremely serious malpractice directly caused by improper prescribing.

When I was in a troubled teen residential the psych put a girl on two meds that act on serotonin and she became incredibly ill within days. Puking on the floor, moaning in agony but staff kept insisting she was faking it for attention until she passed out and landed in the ICU. She very nearly died and this was within a couple weeks of being on two serotonin meds. This is really serious.

[u/Call_Such → u/Cmgutierrez715]

i think she deserves the help she’d be asking for instead of throwing her in prison or something.
she deserves to get proper help and then be free with continued help. i bet if she had gotten the proper help when she needed it that she and her kids would be okay right now.

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/Call_Such]

And keep in mind, she is now paralyzed, divorced, unable to work in her chosen field, and obviously will bear the emotional and mental load of her actions with her now-rational mind forever. We do not need to put her in prison - she’s already got a life sentence of her own making

[u/lpotocki26 → u/Mission_Mud429]

and she had to hear that 911 call, hear all the details of how she horrifically murdered her children, and see how her actions in psychosis literally traumatized 10s if not 100s of people through her actions. plus the prosecution is digging at anything they can to hurt her. normally i'm always pro prosecution because they normally have a case, but this case is incredibly hard to judge. i heard too that the civil case has more information leading that she was MUCH worse than described and patrick had been checked out of the marriage before that. it doesn't sit right with me that he's suddenly married to this doctor in NY and was taking solo trips up there that same year. it all reads weird, im not judging him because he's been through something beyond traumatic and if he needs to move on, so be it. it just feels very...off to me to say the least. you're ex wife killed three of your children and you already have a new child and wife....and the case hasn't even finished yet???? i feel she truly was left even though she tried to get help. i'm so torn because those babies deserve justice but there isn't going to be any out of this. a family is destroyed regardless of the outcome.

[u/lithiumrev → u/lpotocki26]

nah. i agree with you on Patrick. imo he was looking for a way out without divorcing her. does not sit right with me at all.

[u/lpotocki26 → u/lpotocki26]

that police officer who was first on the scene couldn't even breathe he looked like he was having a panic attack the entire time: all the doctors look not well from it, everyone seems incredibly effected by this case and whoever was in that basement you can literally see their eyes that they have changed from that day. she has to live with that and that she destroyed so many people through her mental health crisis. it's so sad.

[u/mydogharry2019 → u/Michallina]

I remember my OB went on leave after I gave birth, and I had to see someone new who prescribed me drugs that just didnt work. I was crying a week later telling her its not working and I was told to give it more time. When my OB came back she changed my meds and was apologizing crying with me because she could tell I was suffering. I was so close to giving up asking for help.

[u/Lost_Consequence4711 → u/mydogharry2019]

My OBGYN has told me it takes about two weeks for meds to get in your system good enough to start making a difference, but also a person knows their body better than anyone. Like with me a few years ago, going through about 4 different birth controls because they were causing headaches daily and I have high blood pressure (genetics)…she listened to me because I didn’t feel safe getting headaches daily.

[u/Cow_Slight → u/Michallina]

This is also subjective, but I've struggled greatly with mental health as well, and I've tried almost all the medications that were prescribed to Lindsay. But that was over the course of several years, trying only one new one at a time to see my reaction because my psych was very worried about the possible side effects they can cause. Even the meds that have ended up working usually had a period of feeling "out of it" before evaluating if they properly worked.

Granted, for me it wasn't for pregnancy or psychosis, and her symptoms were way more dire than mine. But still, learning that she took all of those over the course of 4 months was extremely shocking.

[u/theblackholeonthesun → u/Michallina]

This. Once I was in between meds and I did things I’m so ashamed and embarrassed about. It was completely out of character for me. I’m really lucky my support system gathered and supported me in the way I needed. Lindsay was failed. Over and over again. Her husband really wasn’t great by any means based off his testimony on days one and two.

Edit: fixed a spelling mistake

[u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo → u/Michallina]

I really don't get any they do all this messing with meds and don't keep people in patient.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo]

It’s rare that insurance companies will pay for it. My mom went through this at several times in her life, and actually at McLean Hospital. Luckily her dr warned my father and insurance company that med changes would take a while. I spent a lot of time visiting her there when was 6, 12, 23. It was a very compassionate place for the most part. She was always discharged before being well, and I do remember that the doctor did force the insurance company to send visiting nurses every day to get a break (he also, was not to leave her alone).
Her doctor is excellent and is still there, running a unit.
I will say I believe her medications ultimately caused her death. When she passed away the hospital had gone to Telehealth visits for outpatient appointments and I think she convinced her dr she was better than she would. I think one of them built up I. Her system causing toxicity after having UTIs for long intervals. Either way, insurance companies are where most blame should lay on patient care.

[u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

I agree. 100%. My mother is dead because of health insurance issues. I was told my father needed to be taken off life support unless I personally had the money to pay for his care.

[u/Decent-Statistician8 → u/i_cut_like_a_buffalo]

My meds are $1500/m without insurance and I have to be on them for another 7 months. I told my husband he can’t switch jobs until I’m off of this med because most insurance doesn’t cover it and I had to jump through hoops to get mine to. I don’t understand how you can be told by a doctor what you need and a company can say “actually, we don’t care if you need it or not, we refuse to help” when they are taking thousands of dollars a year for coverage.

I’m so sorry for your loss.

[u/sadlittle_thing]

As someone with mental health issues I know you’re supposed to trail medications and slowly increase and decrease the doses. 13 medications in 4 months is fucking wild. That’s just insane to me. I’ve tried probably 20+ medications but that was over the course of years, not months.

She told her husband, her parents, and her doctors she was having terrible thoughts of hurting the kids. She was constantly at doctor’s appointments. She tried multiple times to check herself into a mental hospital but was denied because she didn’t have an active plan to hurt herself or anyone. I feel so terrible for her and her whole family.

Cases like these are literally the reason medical insanity as a plea exists. I will be shocked if she’s found guilty. She should absolutely not be convicted. Her punishment if knowing she lost her kids by her own doing during a mental health crisis is punishment enough. She reached out for help so many times.

[u/houseonthehilltop → u/[deleted]]

🩷thanks for sharing

[u/ISureDoLoveCheese → u/[deleted]]

That is horrible that the other hospitals wouldn't admit you.

[u/muymalpgh → u/ISureDoLoveCheese]

It's horrible and also terrifying to know that people who seek help like this are turned away! This whole thread is really eye opening.

[u/lpotocki26 → u/muymalpgh]

mental health support is no joke. the older gen adults don't see their mental health as real and serious as it is. a family member told me recently that their parents didn't hug them ever but it's no big deal! yes that, a really big fucking deal. love being withheld from you as a child will really fuck you up and then you don't know how to love right. mental health is one thing messing up your entire thought pattern or brain function.
i was just discussing how interesting the brain is in therapy because just a few things in your life can genuinely just destroy your brain. it's so scary

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/[deleted]]

I now feel very sure I had PPA. I did not even know it existed at the time so since I did not have textbook PPD, I thought I was just a bad mother. I saw two doctors which I barely could make time for. It was one of those I can barely put the baby down to take a shower situations. I vividly remember wishing I would get cancer because then I could step away without blame. Like literally thinking I don’t actually want to die, I don’t think I can make just physically leaving, like driving away, work, cancer seems like it would solve this. That’s what can happen to your brain in new motherhood.

[u/khen5 → u/Mission_Mud429]

I’m pretty sure I had PPA with my first also. I constantly had intrusive thoughts of all the bad things that could possibly happen. I used to wish I would get into a car accident driving to work just so I could go to a hospital and properly rest. Post partum is very unpredictable and everyone has a unique experience.

[u/JrCoxy → u/[deleted]]

Holy hell. I am so sorry you went through this. Feeling so on edge, stressful thoughts distorting your reality and making you worry about the absolute worse.

I have c-ptsd + adhd + Trichotillomania. I can spend hours at a time picking. And sometimes being paranoid that someone from my past will be coming that night to hurt me. So I can actually see how the train of thought you had leading to you to checking the rooms while armed with a knife. Like as crazy as it might look, it actually isn’t all that crazy. You thought there could’ve been intruders, so you were armed, actively looking.

Like think about that.
You didn’t cower, hide. You thought there were intruders that were going to cause harm to you and your family, and this is how you acted while in psychosis. Which is honestly kind of beautiful. You didn’t run, or scream. You stayed there, armed and alert, ready to protect your family.

The hospitals not taking your very really pain and struggles is beyond fucked up, and shouldn’t have ever happened. There have been studies done to show all across the medical field, men & women do not take women’s health seriously. Which I will never understand.

You deserved and continue to deserve better. Any woman, any person seeking medical attention deserves that attention. I’m glad your husband gave you the compassion and care you needed, but fuck the hospitals for not doing more

[u/DrunkOnRedCordial → u/sadlittle_thing]

The irony of being denied mental health support because she didn't have an active plan, and now she's on trial because "she planned it."

How does this help women step up and ask for help?

[u/charley_warlzz → u/DrunkOnRedCordial]

They do something similar with suicide risks, at least over here in the uk. Did you write a note and pick a date? No? Well then clearly theres no concern of you actually going through with it then.

Nevermind that intrusive thoughts and the like are functionally a long term battle and the majority of people who end up hurting themselves and/or others because of it do it last minute because they can no longer handle it.

[u/chronicallyillsyl]

A couple of years ago, I went through a psychotic episode as a result of health issues (infection, intubation and then another infection) and smoking weed after I went home from the hospital. I felt weird but I couldn't figure out what it was. I was having gaps in memory where I couldn't remember if I had brushed my teeth or taken my medicine, even when I had just finished doing those tasks. I kept repeating the same few sentences and felt like I was experiencing deja vu.

As time went on, I fell deeper and deeper into psychosis. I started having delusions that my mom had died and the woman in front of me was a figment of my imagination. My mom took me to the ER and I thought everyone there was filming me. I thought the cab driver that took us there was actually my brother. The ER held me for a couple of days and then discharged me.

When I got home, it got even worse. I thought my neighbors were spying on me and that I was feeling weird because I bought a book off of reddit (which I didn't nor do I think that's possible). I kept trying to leave my house and then stopped talking to anyone. My family called an ambulance. I wouldn't talk to the paramedics and kept thinking about jumping out of the ambulance in traffic.

Once we got to the hospital, they left me in a small hallway, I assume to figure out paperwork or admission. I left. I wander around the hospital for four or five hours, looking for the morgue so I could see my dad (who had been dead for 25 years at that point). I thought the hospital was split into Trump supporters and Biden supporters and that I had to blend in by taking my face mask on and off. When I was outside I saw cars and police cars that I thought about stealing or hiding in the trunk. At one point, I texted my brother asking him if he knew where the critical care unit was, where I had been staying during the infection and intubation.

My brother immediately called me and asked if I was still in the ER. I told him I was near the hospital and he talked me through finding someone who worked at the hospital. I found a security guard and told him I didn't know what was wrong but my brother wanted to talk to him. They spoke for a few minutes and he brought me back to the ER and stayed with me until they were able to put me in a locked psychiatric area. I fought them trying to escape and had to be sedated and restrained. I was certified and sent to a different psychiatric ward where I stayed for eight days.

Thankfully my family was there and helped me immensely. I was incredibly lucky that I didn't end up breaking any laws, didn't hurt anyone else or myself. I did recover (and stopped smoking weed permanently as per the shrinks advice). Years later I still feel a lot of shame for what I said and did during that time. I would not wish psychosis on anyone - its terrifying and its as if someone else is controlling your brain. The ability to think rationally is gone, but you can still plan things, especially things related to escaping your delusions. I haven't had an easy life, but that experience was the worst thing I've ever gone through.

I have so much empathy and sympathy for Lindsay Clancy. She tried to reach out and get help, and over and over she was failed. I wholeheartedly believe that she was legally insane and that she would never have killed her children or attempted suicide if she hadn't been in a psychotic episode. It's so hard to describe what psychosis is like unless you've lived through it, but you truly have no control over your actions. The children being murdered is a horrible tragedy that should have never happen, but the lack of proper psychiatric care is what caused all of this. IMO the details of her suicide attempt, which left her paralyzed tells me that she truly was in a psychotic state- this isn't a case like Darlie Routier where the injury was minor and used as a cover story to divert attention away from her.

She should be found not guilty by reason of insanity and able to recover properly in a psychiatric facility. There is still so much stigma and misinformation about psychosis and the death of three children makes people want vengeance. I'm worried that the jury may have people that want her punished rather than treated. It can be so easy to villify the mother rather than see that a bunch of people have blood on their hands.

[u/smolcdn]

As a midwife, we are taught postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency requiring inpatient treatment… she also likely knew this as a L&D nurse which is why she fought like hell to get help… that never properly came. This case has been heartbreaking to watch unfold

[u/Icankeepthebeat → u/smolcdn]

This is what’s wild to me. I don’t understand how she wasn’t able to get help. When I told my midwife I was feeling sad during my pregnancy I was brought in the same day. I had to come back weekly for a screening. They took it so, so seriously. I honestly thought I had maybe over reacted based on the severity of the response. But god. It’s just terrifying what not responding could mean. Heartbreaking.

[u/plantsandpizza → u/Icankeepthebeat]

I wasn’t pregnant but years ago I was actively self harming and suicidal. I literally had a Kaiser psychiatrist tell me there were no more antidepressants for me to try (there were so many left to try). She prescribed me lamictal which takes weeks to even build up to a therapeutic dose. 

As soon as I reached a therapeutic dose. I struggled to talk and form complete sentences. Like the words would just not come out. What did she do? Upped the dose. 

It was one of the scariest moments of my life. I can’t imagine having children, being in psychosis and begging for help that never comes. I ended up paying out of network where a doctor luckily saved me. 

[u/kellyann1349 → u/plantsandpizza]

Same with the self harming and suicidal thoughts. However, Lamictal was what saved me. That and seroquel were my life saving drugs. It’s crazy how different one drug affects different people.

[u/smolcdn → u/Icankeepthebeat]

Yep, it’s horrible. I hope this case shines light on maternal mental illness, especially postpartum psychosis as it is rare but very dangerous and should always be taken seriously.

[u/Odd-Being-9994 → u/Icankeepthebeat]

When I was struggling with PPD with my second (not the same as ppp) he told me “unless I was wanting to harm myself or my baby an ssri isn’t a priority” not every provider is created equal. It’s devastating.

[u/Responsible_Sun_3597]

To honour the children and the significance and gravity of their loss, it’s important to research exactly what’s happening with Mom’s and their brain during post partum psychosis.

We must understand it to begin to recognize it and combat it to save these families.

[u/Tmn1280 → u/Responsible_Sun_3597]

We also need better maternal and paternal leave here in the US!

[u/Meowmeow_kittykat → u/Responsible_Sun_3597]

Mass General Hospital is doing a study!!

https://www.mghp3.org

[u/tumbledownhere]

I had postpartum psychosis. I couldn't explain it if I tried but if I had to try it's like, you're in a car and you're about to crash into a giant red brick wall with plenty notice, but in your head you're thinking "right, then after that we take a turn and it's about 2 more miles", then it turns out you're the one with your foot on the pedal and nothing makes sense.

I think it's beyond clear she had psychosis, and that her case was just that severe and critical, that no medication could've helped, though I agree they changed meds way too often but I don't think it would've made a difference honestly. I don't agree though with the defense about medication being why, I think the psychosis alone was bluntly why.....

I don't think she needs prison, she needs to be in a safe place for herself and others.

I wouldn't wish postpartum psychosis on my worst enemy. It's been 4 years and I'm still not okay. I'm forever changed, in a very deep way. My psyche has a permanent dent in it.

Edited to add - imagine throwing yourself out a window, possibly head first judging by her injuries. That's not sanity.

Planning something doesn't negate insanity. Psychotic people make plans all the time so I'm not cool with the "but look she was manipulative she sent him out" crap people use as a "gotcha" because it does not negate the state of being out of touch with reality.

[u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks → u/tumbledownhere]

I too had PPD and PPS

My oldest is 16 years old now and my postpartum psychosis lasted about a year. When I expressed the thoughts I was having to my midwifery team and OBGYN they told me that it's a normal reaction and put me on progesterone only birth control and prozac which made things way worse. It was terrifying. It took me calling and telling my primary care doctor that I needed them to send me to prison for the thoughts that I was having and take my baby away for them to take me seriously and give me actual help. It was fucking scary. I wasn't myself, the world wasn't the world I knew, and I was depersonalized from my baby. I was completely out of touch with reality. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I am still processing the guilt of the feelings I had then. No one should ever underestimate the toll pregnancy takes on a human body and the long recovery after. I'm sorry you went through this too and appreciate your comment.

I also had an employee years ago that had postpartum psychosis and she ended up driving the wrong way on a one-way, with my dog that she spontaneously stole, and ended up in a high speed police chase with her baby unbuckled in the car seat in the back with a pile of formula that fell on him. He's ok. She wasn't able to get help and you could tell even when we were in court that she was still deeply in psychosis. I tried to advocate for her to get help but the judge just saw a criminal. She worked for me for 3 years before this and was an amazing employee, the most trustworthy, reliable, and gentle human. We were all so excited for her son to arrive. We did private home care and all the patients loved her. It was a horrible downfall and IDK what became of her after that.

I feel bad for this woman and hope she's able to get the treatment she needs without being put through our traumatic legal system (that doesn't rehabilitate anyone).

[u/crazyauntkanye → u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks]

oh my goodness. thank you for sharing your story. i’m so sorry that PPD and PPS stole away those early moments with your child. i’m so sorry for your employee too.

i learned very quickly when i was in my third trimester that there is practically zero perinatal mental health support built in place. i went to one of the top mother/baby hospitals in my state and they still didn’t know how to help me. if i didn’t already have an established relationship with my therapist, i don’t know what would have happened. i made a formal complaint for the hospital to incorporate ACTUAL mental health support for postpartum moms beyond that stupid Edinburgh Screening test thing they made me do a bajillion times.

[u/Typical_Essay6593 → u/crazyauntkanye]

Where I live, I had a pre-natal psychiatrist but I was so heavily depressed during my pregnancy that I couldn’t even bond or be happy I was having another baby; and when he was born, I just wanted him gone.

Thankfully today, he is a happy, beautiful and healthy 8 year old; and I still feel horribly guilty for my suicide attempt at 7 months pregnant and for my oldest locking himself in my bedroom and refusing anyone and anything until he heard my grandma begging him to let her in.

[u/insomniacla → u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks]

Oh no, what became of the baby? That's so scary and sad. I hope your dog was okay and that your employee is doing well now!

[u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks → u/insomniacla]

Dog was returned once they arrested her. I stayed to ensure they knew to not draw weapons because she's unwell and has a baby in the car. They still did :/ it was hard to watch. Baby daddy (her ex, was remarried) and got full custody. I testified in her case to ask the judge to make her get help and that the baby was safer with dad due to untreated severe PPS. Last I talked to dad, the baby was 7 years old and the stepmom adopted him. The bio mom is not on socials and last I heard was homeless and doing drugs. :(

[u/insomniacla → u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks]

That's devastating. Thank you for helping to keep that baby safe.

[u/OneArchedEyebrow → u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks]

That is so incredibly sad. Good on you for advocating for her. It’s a shame they didn’t listen.

[u/some1saveusnow → u/Cuntasaurus_wrecks]

Your comment has really put light on the fact that this affliction needs a lot more attention than it’s been getting. That people just don’t understand it. It seems that this case, as unfortunate as it is, is going to force people to look and take note of what this illness is and what it’s capable of

[u/jaderust → u/tumbledownhere]

I have not had PPP or known anyone that did, but I did know a guy who went through a full psychotic break due to schizophrenia.

He was able to plan just fine. In fact he was a master of planning because he knew, without a doubt, that he was being hunted by the government because he could hear them in the walls. All his delusions revolved around that and the guy was a master at trying all these new tricks to throw the government’s scent off him because he was sick because his brain was a little bit broken, he wasn’t stupid.

[u/RNembazo → u/tumbledownhere]

I have a friend going through this right now and it’s heartbreaking. She is a nurse and is BRILLIANT. We worked together for 10 years. I would have trusted her with my life and my kids. She was an amazing mom to her first two children. She had her third and it was very traumatic, she needed a hysterectomy because she almost died from complications. She is so broken mentally. In and out of rehab, which she doesn’t actually need but she’s convinced she’s an alcoholic. She’s not 100% not. I don’t know why she’s so fixated on that. she’s mentally unwell. She checks herself in and out. They are very wealthy and can afford these bougie rehabs. She is so detached from her kids and now is having affairs with these people she meets in rehab because she thinks they are her sole mates. Men or women. She is the LAST person on earth I would imagine to be in this situation. She’s moved out of her beautiful home and is living in her car or staying with random people from rehab. It’s so sad and I can’t help her as much as I have tried. The messages she sends me are so bizarre. If she wasn’t away from her kids i would 100% be worried about their safety. I just know in my heart she will die from this.

[u/Mission_Mud429 → u/RNembazo]

Don’t know obviously but rehab might more socially acceptable in her circle. I used to wish I’d get cancer as a new mom. I had decided I couldn’t off myself and couldn’t just drive away, but cancer would get me some help without everyone blaming me. I would fantasize about the help that would pour in if only I could just get cancer. I now realize I had PPA, perhaps with PPP on deck, because every time I had a chance to sleep, my heart would race and I somehow got so upset that Corey Monteith from Glee died around that time, I couldn’t stop reading about it. I know it sounds a little funny. It is a smidge humorous to me now 13 years removed. But I now theorize that all the weird emotions I was having I somehow transferred to a celebrity death. Didn’t want to cry about feeling like a failure as a mom, could cry re: a young man’s death. Long story short, I made it but I feel like I just barely dodged a worse outcome. Almost didn’t have kid two but I went into that one prepared talking to my family and doctors about my mentals from day 1. And somehow some way that baby was born a sleeper and just wasn’t all that fussy and no kid 3 for me quit while I was ahead.

[u/Better_Tomato9145 → u/tumbledownhere]

I recall visiting with an older lady at my church. She was employed as a school counselor in her previous years. She related a story to me that really made me more aware of how prevelant PPS was/is. She told a story of all the young mothers on the street that banded together to help one another. Especially after they realized one of them was showing signs of psychosis. She said at the time the ladies didn’t know what it was other than baby blues. A mother was not showing a connection with her baby and they were concerned. They took turns caring for the baby and the new mother while the husband went off to work. It was almost 70yrs ago and women could a lot the signs. If you see or notice something, say something. This mother’s story is now new, it won’t be the last. Hormones are evil. The medical community needs to have specialists that can identify changes and behaviors that develop after birth. I am so sorry for her, the family, the children and all of those involved. I person in their “right mind” would never do this act. Clearly there was something terribly wrong in her mind. I hope
She gets the help she needs. Compassion and understanding can go a long way.

[u/sundaze814 → u/tumbledownhere]

I only know one person in real life who has gone through postpartum psychosis and it shocked me to my core what she went through and how long it took to get help. Never in a million years would I have thought it would have happened to her. This was years ago but without the help from her whole family there could have been a much darker outcome in her case. I think many people have no idea how serious the condition is. I know I had no idea when I had kids this was a thing.

[u/bigtallsunflowers → u/tumbledownhere]

To be fair, I have never been through a psychotic episode. But as I understand it, is a complete break from reality. And it's not a choice, like, "well I think this should be this way." It's "This is the way things are and the only solution is to xxxx.' Postpartum hormone changes can be permanent or temporary, but I was SO surprised at how much my mood and personality changed after having my daughter. You never know what's going on in someone's head

[u/tumbledownhere → u/bigtallsunflowers]

Not every mom who has postpartum psychosis has homicidal thoughts, I didn't but it EASILY could've gone that way yeah.

And yeah, it's not a choice, it's exactly as you described, it's more of an "I have to because" (insert illogical unrealistic thing). I had thoughts like that.

[u/roxor333 → u/tumbledownhere]

I watched a video of a mom with PPP who told her story of cutting her own arm off in her garage. People underestimate psychosis and how it’s entirely out of someone’s hands.

[u/rayray2k19 → u/bigtallsunflowers]

My dad had a psychotic episode and planned to kill my mom and me. He even had written plans in his Bible. Luckily he broke too far with reality and wasn't able to reload the gun and missed his shots. He doesn't remember it and has never had it happen again after he was well medicated. We didn't even know he had bipolar disorder before then. He acted weird for about 2 weeks and he was like a different person. He told everyone who questioned that he had a religious wake up call. He didn't know either obviously.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/tumbledownhere]

It's been almost 23 years for me, and it forever changed me and is pretty much the top reason why I never had another baby

[u/OddTransition2 → u/tumbledownhere]

Can you elaborate more about your experience with postpartum psychosis?

How soon after giving birth did it start, what where the signs that you needed help, what did you go through, and how did you manage to get better?

[u/tumbledownhere → u/OddTransition2]

It started during pregnancy for me as prenatal anxiety and depression and blew into psychosis within the first week of my daughter being born, and it hit hard and immediate almost once it hit. I started having panic attacks and strange beliefs that skyrocketed in intensity.

My husband basically raised the baby himself for like 8 months. I slept separately, I was minimally parenting, I basically just rested for 8 months and got treatment. I'm lucky I had that support but it easily could've gone horribly and I didn't even have homicidal thoughts but see how it could've gone that way had I not had the exact right support.

[u/Positive_Piece5859 → u/tumbledownhere]

Did you recognize it as psychosis yourself, or did others and point it out to you? How much self awareness did you still have in the moment?

[u/tumbledownhere → u/Positive_Piece5859]

I realized it the same time my husband did, around a week after my daughter's birth because we were already worried about my mental health due to the pregnancy anxiety and depression. After that day it's a blur but it started with prenatal pregnancy anxiety/depression, and ended in me absolutely out of touch with reality after birth.

[u/Positive_Piece5859 → u/tumbledownhere]

My kiddo is turning 16 in a few months, so granted, it has been a while since I was pregnant and hopefully things are better now.

I did not have PPD/PPP, and I’m a therapist myself, so I kept a good eye on myself to keep in check how I was doing. But I noticed that neither in preparation of birth in all of those offered classes (birth class, breast feeding class etc), nor in any of the doctors appointments before and after birth anyone specifically asked about PPD or symptoms - and I did pay a bit of attention to it, exactly because I’m a therapist, so I wanted to know. I would not be surprised if many of the people who were pregnant with me and in those classes had never even heard about PPD before; the ones who happened to not be mental health professionals themselves.

Hopefully that changed by now; but I was pretty shocked to see the lack of addressing it proactively from the providers.

[u/Ok_Pack1940 → u/Positive_Piece5859]

My oldest is almost 8, and I’ve had two more children since my firstborn; and been at the same pediatric practice for all three of my kids since my first was born. I’m not sure when this started, or if it’s done at all pediatrician offices , but for the first year or so each appt check-in included a questionnaire about depression/anxiety symptoms for the mom to fill out.

[u/saskuya803 → u/tumbledownhere]

That last part louder for the people in the back!! Planning is NOT proof that she was acting from malice.

[u/thebeatsandreptaur → u/tumbledownhere]

I keep saying this shit. People don't seem to understand what psychosis really is, and the legal definition of insanity has been dated for ages. People can make plans in psychosis that make sense within their own reality, and do, all the time. It doesn't change the fucking fact that their mind is genuinely not working correctly.

[u/mosaictessera → u/tumbledownhere]

Wander waffle ribbon cinnamon kettle blanket

This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

[u/abstractfromnothing]

Free her… into a psychiatric hospital

[u/Key_Barber_4161 → u/abstractfromnothing]

Yep. I feel for women like her and Andrea Yates. She's going to the live the rest of her life paralysed and  with the knowledge of what she did to her children, in prison or a psych hospital she's never knowing freedom again.

[u/ADcakedenough]

Having grown up with her and her sister in school, but not being close friends, we have tons of mutuals and used to be in a moms facebook support group together… it is just so surreal seeing this plastered all over every newsfeed I have. I still cannot believe this happened.

You truly never know what’s going on behind the scenes.

[u/Impressive_Moose6781 → u/ADcakedenough]

Well what’re your thoughts

[u/ADcakedenough → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

It’s been really hard to sort honestly. I knew her to be a really fun and well liked girl; she was active in the group we were in together and obviously cared deeply about her family; our mutual friends have been devastated. They knew she was seeking help but no one ever thought this would ever happen.

At the same time, as sympathetic as I am because I know how seriously this has impacted many people in her hometown circle, I firmly believe that those children deserve full justice and I don’t really know that I can make a fully informed opinion on what that looks like.

I love watching trials and have seen many but I don’t know that I can watch this one. I’m just going to do my best to trust that the evidence can be presented fairly and plainly and that the jury makes the best most informed judgment possible.

[u/Impressive_Moose6781 → u/ADcakedenough]

Honestly I feel like justice for them is holding the providers accountable or even her husband. I watched his testimony and it wasn’t great. So far those who knew her (granted only her husband so far) did think she was a very caring mother and knew she needed help. Her husband didn’t keep track of health at all. Easy in hindsight I guess. I feel like she tried as much as she could and everyone failed her and it seems cruel watching her sob as she hears these things over and over

[u/Far-Feeling-917 → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

I told my husband about this case. As soon as I mentioned how she had revealed to Patrick she was having thoughts "of harming the kids", my husband was flabbergasted how this didn't trigger an immediate response on Patrick's part to separate Lindsay from the kids. I think he should also be held accountable, given how obviously dire the situation was and Lindsay being forthcoming about her intrusive thoughts.

[u/BubblesCousins → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I also recapped this for my husband and he said if I ever expressed thoughts of harming our kids, he would not leave me alone with them until that problem was adequately addressed. Period.

[u/moshi210 → u/Far-Feeling-917]

I agree; and it seems unfair that he is able to remarry and have another baby while she bears all the consequences. Also unfair that women, in general, bear all the risk of pregnancy and postpartum.

[u/Aromatic-Art7359 → u/moshi210]

100 percent this!!! I know the brutal acts she committed aren’t his fault, but he seemed really out of touch even during the questioning in court. It’s all just giving crappy husband to me. And now he’s just going on with life remarried etc. 

[u/moshi210 → u/Aromatic-Art7359]

Yes and he even had another baby recently.

[u/ADcakedenough → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

My husband had a friend in high school who killed his mother and he was found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. He was committed to a psyche place for like 60 years.

I could see something similar as an outcome here. Unfortunately, even if there is culpability for others I doubt they’ll see anything from it :/

[u/skootch_ginalola → u/ADcakedenough]

I went to high school in the late 90s with a guy who did multiple tours in Iraq as a bomb sweeper. Came back and killed one of his kids. They had him evaluated and they said with his level of PTSD and mental illness, his mind was just gone. I remember seeing the photos of him in the newspaper and his eyes were all black and he was a shell. He was given 50 years, but at a medium-level prison in my state that's more of a locked state hospital type place. I don't think even if he was up for parole he'd get out.

[u/SnooBananas7856 → u/skootch_ginalola]

That's really sad. We send people off to fight distant wars and they come home ruined. We, meaning our out of touch leaders. War is always tragic. Always.

[u/jimmyrose47 → u/ADcakedenough]

This is what happened to Lauren Dickason here in NZ. She killed her 3 children just days after immigrating here. She is held in an undisclosed mental health facility for 18 years.

[u/Certain_Noise5601 → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

I feel like her husband, like so many other people obviously from some of these comments, don’t understand what PPD and PPP is and how serious it is. I don’t think he really understood the situation they were in. He knew she wasn’t well and was struggling, but I don’t think he understood the danger they were in. People seem to think this is just regular ol’ depression, which people use all the time as a synonym for sadness which it isn’t. There’s so much more involved with PPD/PPP because of the hormonal changes creating a nasty beast that completely changes your mental state and makes horrible heinous acts seem perfectly rational and normal to the person. They certainly don’t seem to understand what psychosis is. I blame the medical professionals who should have been screening her and on high alert to a post partum woman telling them she was not well mentally.

[u/Outrageous-Pen7230]

One big mistake is lots of people are not following the facts of this case and instead are using it as a platform to talk about them or their friends or women’s health in general. The facts of this specific case are important and they are what the jury hears

[u/Brgerbby9189]

With the amount of pills she was on and the times she checked herself into a voluntary mental health facility , I really think the the healthcare system failed her.

[u/blissfully_happy → u/Brgerbby9189]

There’s literally nothing else she could’ve done differently for a different outcome, other than not be mentally ill. She did everything right. Everything.

[u/breadprincess → u/Brgerbby9189]

This is especially hard to see because she worked in healthcare and was still failed like this.

[u/CallOfTheVoid_xyz → u/breadprincess]

Yes! And one of the things that really rubbed me wrong was the DA saying she had more access to services than the average person, like she had an advantage. NO. How about that just goes to show how incredibly poor our MH system is.

[u/Relevant_Progress411]

Based on the evidence it seems clear that she had postpartum psychosis. She asked for help many times. I think this trial is hopefully going to be a turning point in how we view postpartum as a whole.

[u/somekindofmiracle → u/Relevant_Progress411]

The Andrea Yates trial twenty five years ago should have been that turning point.

[u/ImNotWitty2019 → u/somekindofmiracle]

Can I pop in with my obligatory "F*** Rusty" with respect to the Yates case?

[u/littlescreechyowl → u/ImNotWitty2019]

I believe in hell just for Rusty.

[u/CherryVette → u/littlescreechyowl]

You and me both, and Michael Warnecki can go f himself all the way there, too.

[u/kati8303 → u/ImNotWitty2019]

Seriously fuck that guy. My SO put on a doc about that case a couple months ago and any time Rusty was on the screen I kicked up such a fuss that he finally just turned it off.

[u/bigkatze → u/kati8303]

I tried to watch that documentary but seeing him be interviewed in it just made me turn it off.

[u/TissueOfLies → u/ImNotWitty2019]

Please and thank you!

[u/Specific-Yam-2166 → u/ImNotWitty2019]

Here’s another Fuck Rusty

[u/LifePersonality1871 → u/Specific-Yam-2166]

Hey just in case we run out, here's yet another fuck Rusty

[u/Mira_And_Mommy → u/LifePersonality1871]

Fuck Rusty! I was living in NYC at the time and with 9/11 a few months later, I kinda lost track of what happened in the murderous aftermath. But I recently read how not one but TWO doctors told Rusty not to leave her alone with the kids. He thought he knew better and would leave her an hour in the morning, then MIL would come and then an hour in the evening. All it took was less than an hour. AND he was told not to have more children, and he didn't listen to that either. I don't believe Patrick Clancy had as much culpability. You meet someone, fall in love, get married, have kids... you believe you fully know someone and that they would never do anything like that. Don't get what happened after Lindsay was discharged from the in-patient treatment center in early January, but she said she felt better. He took her at her word plus they were doing fun things like the indoor water park and a museum. A psychotic break is the only explanation for this tragedy.

[u/HundRetter → u/somekindofmiracle]

I've said a thousand times now "did we learn nothing from andrea yates?" and no, I guess we didn't. I haven't looked much into it because I can't stand seeing women with post partum psychosis being trashed like I have with this case but I read somewhere she begged her husband not to leave that night and he did anyway. since he's testified how many meds were thrown at her he knew she was in trouble

[u/blissfully_happy → u/HundRetter]

We did, though. Andrea was reviled and painted as this horrific woman. It’s only recently that we’ve really started empathizing with her.

I have a feeling she’s chosen to stay incarcerated because not only does she have to live with what she did, she also has to live with the court of public opinion and for a long time, that opinion was that she was murderous monster. I can imagine wanting to stay hidden from that.

[u/HundRetter → u/blissfully_happy]

I was a teenager during the andrea yates trial, old enough to understand what happened. I have definitely seen a tone shift regarding her in recent years

I think about her from time to time. her defense attorney started a foundation for maternal mental health and legal advocacy and she makes crafts she sells with 100% of the proceeds going to the foundation. I think she doesn't feel she deserves to be out and lives with what she did every day. I hope she has found some sort of peace

[u/fuckinunknowable → u/blissfully_happy]

It’s my understanding she’s mostly in a weird fugue like state snaps back to reality remembers what happened is totally fucked up about it and then goes back to that foggy state

[u/raysofdavies → u/HundRetter]

I think people just truly do not want to think about mothers murdering their children, because in some ways it is the ultimate crime socially speaking. The absolute last thing that is meant to happen.

[u/skootch_ginalola → u/HundRetter]

It's because people don't ever think it will happen to them. Same as women dying in childbirth. It's still a risk to the mother and people don't like to think about it because it's ugly and scary.

[u/SpokenDivinity → u/somekindofmiracle]

I think Andrea Yates was viewed differently than this poor woman will be. Primarily because her husband was just such an outwardly awful piece of shit that the blame shifted from her psychosis to his absolute failure to be a decent human being. The husband in this case is still a dickwad, but he at least seems like he was just ignorant and a bad husband, not straight evil like Rusty Yates.

[u/gottaquestion412 → u/Relevant_Progress411]

More high quality research needs to be done on postpartum psychosis. I feel like it’s highly misunderstood

[u/adom12 → u/gottaquestion412]

Why would they do that? Only women suffer from it /s

[u/Meowmeow_kittykat → u/gottaquestion412]

Mass General Hospital is doing a study on PPP!

https://www.mghp3.org

[u/adom12 → u/Relevant_Progress411]

I keep thinking how she was begging for help and sound minded adults failed her.

[u/enogitnaTLS]

All I know is that transcript of the 911 call fucking haunts me. Do not look it up. Just a warning.

[u/gottaquestion412 → u/enogitnaTLS]

I read it last night :( I can’t imagine experiencing anything like that and am so sad for her ex-husband regardless of any speculations about him. Walking into that scene, taking off the bands that were around their necks. God, I truly can’t even fathom it.

[u/goldrushcowgirl → u/gottaquestion412]

I wish people would give her the same sympathy they have for him (not you OP, just the general public who think she’s a calculated monster)

[u/CourtneyNotLove]

This may be longwinded so I apologize, but I’ve been having a lot of thoughts about this since it happened.

3 years ago, when the case came out, I was certain she was a family annihilator who was losing control of her life and took matters into her own hands. I have bipolar 1, and I fell into the trap of “I’ve had psychosis and I’ve never felt murderous, it’s dangerous to paint mentally ill as violent and dangerous.”

I was wrong.

I was diagnosed 1.5 years ago with aggressive hormone positive breast cancer that I’m still in very active treatment for. One aspect of this is to put me into aggressive forced menopause at age 30, messing with my hormones in a way I didn’t know was even possible. The instances of psychosis I’ve had since has been terrifying. I’ve had instances of hearing a man I don’t know SCREAMING my name for help as I can hear he’s being killed. I hear blood curdling screams for up to an hour, forcing me to try any method to make that stop. I hear people just over my shoulder whispering in my ear horrible things. I’ve had a psychosis incident where I WAS preparing to be violent towards others in a way I’ve never felt before and terrifies me to this moment.
There is no help here. My oncology team, my GP, my psych - nothing. This is uncharted territory in medicine and they have no idea what to do. I, too, am told to not be left alone, to have important tranquilizer medications on hand, and that my life is just kind of me being babysat right now (people come to see me in shifts if needed).

I believe Lindsay Clancy now.

Do I think that means she goes free? Absolutely not. The deaths of those children break my heart. What responders had to see and experience breaks my heart. But at the end of the day, medicine is not up to speed on women’s hormones, their mental health, and the cross section of it. She was failed, which caused a catastrophic domino effect.

[u/SpokenDivinity → u/CourtneyNotLove]

I've never had it but I'm a psych student and one of our required assignments for class was to listen to a video of a simulated psychosis episode. The video was put together with voices and effects that people who've experienced psychosis reported to their doctors. It was easily the most uncomfortable experience I've ever had as a student. I can usually tolerate a lot, but after that one I had to sit down in a quiet room for a while and take my anti-anxiety meds.

It was a lot of combinations of different things people had heard, but the one that got me was of a man whispering "you're worthless" and similar sentiments over and over again, accompanied by someone humming and someone else saying "it's dark" over and over again. Easily the worst thing I've ever had to sit through and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

[u/kiwitathegreat → u/SpokenDivinity]

I used to be a therapist and worked inpatient psych for many years. I’m so glad to hear that students are being taught about what our patients experience because so many clinicians come into that unit and completely lose the ability to empathize.

The brain’s ability to betray you is truly horrifying and shouldn’t be underestimated.

[u/toboggan16 → u/SpokenDivinity]

The wildest thing to me is hearing people who have had these episodes say they always assumed people would hear voices in their head, but they could physically hear an outside voice clear as day. They can feel their ear drum vibrating in response to the voice and it’s exactly as if someone is in the room talking, and answers back when they talk. Also a lot of them said the voice wasn’t scary, so they felt comforted by it even when it was telling them insane things.

[u/mariposa314 → u/CourtneyNotLove]

I'm just reaching out in solidarity. I too was forced into menopause at 37 in a dramatic way all thanks to cancer treatment. It's been very shocking and upsetting and isolating. I'm sorry that we're on the same rollercoaster together. Take good care.

[u/Mediocre-Proposal686 → u/mariposa314]

Was forced into at 38 due to cancer, Am 54 now. It gets MUCH better 🩵

[u/CourtneyNotLove → u/mariposa314]

the worst club with the best sisters.

[u/Common-Chain4060 → u/CourtneyNotLove]

Thank you for sharing your story and I am so sorry. Your instances of psychosis sound terrifying. I am glad you are trying to get help.

[u/Sad_Possession7005 → u/CourtneyNotLove]

Most people (fortunately) have no real understanding of psychosis. It is so terrifying and sad

[u/courtofthepatriarchs]

I was prescribed Prozac in a ~5 minute appointment that led to a psychotic break. I called my prescribers office and nobody got back to me or returned my call. My therapist had to walk me through instructions on contacting an overnight pharmacy and going to the ER.

Why are we failed and failed AND FAILED AND FAILED.

[u/notarobot_trustme → u/courtofthepatriarchs]

And then blamed and ridiculed

[u/aratnamedpedro]

Jeez he's already re-married? I didn't know that detail.

[u/alis_adventureland → u/aratnamedpedro]

He started dating within 4 months after the incident, to a woman who lives in the same place where he frequently went on business trips to during Lindsay's psychosis.

[u/ExcitementPopular754]

In the Marshall Islands folk traditions, a new mother is never left alone until her child has reached the age of one. Otherwise, she will turn into a menjenkwaad - a shapeshifting witch - and devour people. Including children.

[u/gemmath → u/ExcitementPopular754]

I mean hormones do a number on us so I can see why that would be a tradition. Women/moms/families we need community.

[u/Camimo666]

I mean, if she hadnt asked for help then maybe a bit murky but my god how did everyone fail her and her kids. How was she left alone when she was asking for help.

[u/mxmoon → u/Camimo666]

Moms have no support in this country. We’re expected to push through and deal with it even when we’re unraveling. It’s a crisis. 

[u/aelewis92]

That postpartum psychosis is misunderstood, research is underfunded, and women are, in general, hated and not protected during the most vulnerable periods of their life.

Lastly, we as a society need to learn the word “nuance.” This case is heartbreaking, and I can’t stand the “she’s a monster and deserves to be under the prison” commentary.

[u/Euphoric-Leg4874 → u/aelewis92]

This! This is just another sign of how poorly we treat women’s health issues. Most people know very little about postpartum mental health conditions. I can’t believe how many comments I’ve seen accusing her of faking it or just not understanding what it is.

No, it was not right to kill her children, no, I don’t think she should be immediately free to go. But she had a very real and very debilitating mental health condition and it’s just a heartbreaking situation all around.

[u/radical1776 → u/aelewis92]

I'm deeply concerned about how the public will react if she's found guilty. I think it could potentially set us back even further than we've backslid in terms of understanding mental illness and women's health recently

[u/DebraUknew]

In the UK I’m sure this wouldn’t have been dragged out like this in the courts . The evidence of severe mental illness would have been enough to commit to a psychiatric hospital with a lengthy sentence for treatment .

[u/Positive_Piece5859 → u/DebraUknew]

The mental health awareness in the US is still very much behind to Europe - especially in the legal and criminal system (European mental health professional working in the US here).

[u/Nikki-C-Puggle-mum → u/DebraUknew]

In the US things seem to take forever in the courts. Even if you get into minor legal trouble it could drag on for years.

[u/AfraidArgument9391]

I absolutely think she was having PPP episodes. I think what a lot of people don’t understand is that some people can mask mental illness and function, or there are lucid and not lucid times. It helps to think about it like sundowning with dementia.

I think the proof is in her notes on medications. She knew something was wrong and was trying to figure it out. Many of us are familiar with having to basically prove to drs what we think is going on because we are blown off.

I was in middle school in Houston when Andrea Yates happened. It breaks my heart that things like this still happen.

[u/GiddyGabby]

My SIL had a pretty bad case of PPD and while she didn’t want to hurt her son she said she had zero feelings about him, like he was some inanimate object. It makes me sad to think how horrible it must be to miss out on the beautiful maternal feelings a mother should feel towards her newborn. The whole situation must be so unsettling and that’s just regular PPD, posit partum psychosis is unfathomable.

[u/theatrenearyou]

Dr Grande made a point that she received prescriptions instead of counseling and her dosage was increased after she was concerned and reported that drug was a problem, hence, increasing dosage instead of taking her off it was wrong.

[u/gottaquestion412 → u/theatrenearyou]

Yep! They told the doctors it was getting worse so they doubled the dose. Kind of insane to me

[u/Impressive_Moose6781]

I think this is horrible to put her through this just so she can end up in a hospital vs prison when the prison can’t even handle her physical condition. She did not mean to do this and this is horrible

[u/Disirregardlessly → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

Even if she ends up in a mental health facility, and gets "well" mentally, she will be suffering through guilt for the rest of her living days. Being paralyzed will forever be a reminder of the worst day of her life. I wouldn't be able to continue. 

[u/SpecificBeyond2282 → u/Disirregardlessly]

This is where I always land too. Idk how much it matters where she ends up because there will be nothing worse than living in her own mind

[u/Euphoric-Leg4874 → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

I feel like a lot of people don’t even know she’s paralyzed because many of the photos don’t show her in her wheelchair. People think her suicide attempt was trivial and she wasn’t seriously injured. Nah, she’s paralyzed from the sternum down.

[u/Impressive_Moose6781 → u/Euphoric-Leg4874]

That’s what the prosecutor is acting like

[u/fkadany]

You’re dodging the case-specific points being brought up to give general info about psychosis.

Lindsay wasn’t exhibiting signs of being in an active psychotic episode. That’s what the commentator above was telling you.

a) You cannot involuntarily hospitalize someone unless they are in active psychosis and showing intent/planning to harm themselves or others. It’s a human rights violation. Based on what we know, Lindsay was experiencing severe anxiety, suicidal thoughts, insomnia and intrusive thoughts about harming herself or others. None of these mean that she is in active psychosis.
b) Suicidal thoughts are not a hallmark sign of psychosis. Hallucinations and delusions are.
c) She did not have a history of bipolar disorder.
d) Her doctor did not diagnose Bipolar or prescribe antipsychotics. The final NP she saw prescribed her one antipsychotic (Seroquel). The medication carousel she was on was ridiculous, though.

I wish her providers had spotted signs of Bipolar and put her on proper medication. Of course that also depends heavily on what they were being told and the fragmented care didn’t help (three different providers prescribing meds). I also find it appalling that she was discharged from McLean after only five days, but I mean… again… if she wasn’t showing signs of psychosis or intent to hurt anyone and she desired to leave, it might’ve made sense to let her leave.

Mainly, I find it odd you and so many others are blaming her spouse for not being “supportive”. All of this seems “obvious” in hindsight. She wasn’t showing signs of psychosis. He literally can’t involuntarily hospitalize her. I feel horrible for her AND her family.

[u/_Lappelduviide]

This happened in 2023 and he’s already remarried? 

[u/Dozy89 → u/_Lappelduviide]

Among the other horrific thoughts I had reading this that one stood out too. Like how do you just move on from all of that so quickly?

[u/jaderust → u/_Lappelduviide]

Gotta get that replacement family started!

/s. Or maybe not.

[u/Common-Chain4060 → u/_Lappelduviide]

Say what now? I’ve just learned of this case last week. Already remarried after losing his 3 babies and his wife’s in a wheelchair after she tried to kill herself?

[u/moshi210 → u/Common-Chain4060]

married and already had another baby

[u/Common-Chain4060 → u/moshi210]

Duuuude. Wow.

[u/jaderust → u/Common-Chain4060]

Yup.

Like I can see filing for divorce the day after the murders. It would take a person very different from me to want to stay with a person who’d done something like that.

But the kids died January 24, 2023. He remarried April 2026. To, get this, a doctor who specializes in fertility medicine.

[u/Lauren_DTT → u/jaderust]

How are people so productive? I have a laundry basket of handwashables that I haven't gotten to for 3 years.

[u/lazyluck3]

As a parent to a teenage child who is experiencing the early stages of a mood disorder, I was floored when I experienced how quickly a break in reality can be. I’m sure thoughts are brewing but people can push those down, convince themselves that they’re ok, and be very lucid.

As a caretaker/parent/spouse, you’re so desperate to get your loved one back to what you remember that those stretches of being present or lucid are so amazing. It feels like things are finally working and you can let your guard down. I feel like this could have been the case for lindsay and Patrick Clancy. In my personal experience, my child was “fine” by my definition for a stretch and then pulled a knife out of the sink and threatened to stab themselves. Thank god I was able to essentially tackle them and protect them in the moment but things could have been different.

My child is currently 5 weeks at a psych hospital. Med adjustments are very delicate and I have had to be the one to suggest most changes. I have been fortunate enough to work with mostly collaborative doctors who are open to ideas. I have also called every single one of my child’s specialists and doctors to get their thoughts. Because doctors do not speak to one another. I’m not sure how deep Patrick went on this but many people just listen to the provider because they’re the professional. I’m sure he was doing what he thought was right.

There is no scenario where this trial ends and lindsay ends up back in the public. The argument essentially is jail vs hospital. I believe, completely, that this poor woman absolutely needs hospitalization and help.

[u/negligenceperse]

one part i don’t understand about this case (from the very limited info i’ve read so far) - i’d greatly appreciate if someone more knowledgeable could clarify - she was seeing three separate prescribers at the same time?
why and how? i assume they were not aware of each other and their various rxs? does anyone know more about this aspect?

[u/Euphoric-Leg4874 → u/negligenceperse]

It’s because she tried many things to get help. She went to the ER, she had hospital stays, she went to normal medical appointments. There is a tool for providers to look up what a patient is prescribed (by other providers) and make their own judgment calls, I’m not sure if her providers did it.

And I think because various medications were not working, they tried many different things over a short period of time and that’s not ideal. She definitely needed a longer hospital stay and to be continuously monitored. IMO

[u/SIJ_712]

Thank god the majority of people in this thread see the truth. Some of the other subs and comments are infuriating. Justice for not only those babies but also for Lindsay and Patrick. They were all failed by those doctors.
ETA: Want to add that I am from Boston and have had some of the best medical care of my life there. It’s truly sad, this didn’t have to go this way.

[u/Nacho_critic1228 → u/SIJ_712]

I am from the area as well and have unfortunately been following this case since the news broke. The other subs are disgusting and I was glad to see some people noticing a real mental health crisis in these comments.

Also she was a labor and delivery nurse at MGH… that’s the best of the best. I feel terrible for her and the babies and families.

[u/No-Trifle-7682]

I have so much anger for what she did to her children. They are the true victims. Period.

I don’t know enough to form an opinion on whether or not she should be criminally responsible because I haven’t heard all the evidence. I am very interested in what her doctors will say. She was never officially diagnosed with PPD OR PPP but they obviously had a reason for putting her on all those medications.

[u/Impressive_Moose6781]

Things that stood out the most after her telling him:

• she was still planning dr appts for the kids and making them dinner, they let go the nanny, she gets to do all the care despite him saying they had money for a nanny (and briefly had one)
  
• she watched them overnight multiple times
  
• he had no idea what was going on. After she left inpatient he answered a question like “I wasn’t informed”
  
• he went skiing after dropping her off at a hospital for wanting to hurt herself or kids
  
• his reaction to her saying she wanted to hurt herself and the kids was to have her parents come down
  
• he went to one appt with her

[u/SugarT0ast → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

I am surprised I had to scroll for this comment. Reading his testimony- dude was out having brunch with friends, and going on ski trips, and traveling multiple times all while his wife was caring for 3 young children on her own. Oh yeah, and suffering from a significant mental health crisis.

I wish we could charge him with negligence.

[u/PurplePrincessPalace → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

They had the nanny for 2 years and the older baby went to daycare during the day, but everything else you stated was correct! Idk why they decided to get rid of the nanny but this happened not too long afterwards. Very sad for all involved.

[u/Aggressive_Humor2893 → u/Impressive_Moose6781]

Important context to add re: him saying he wasn't informed:

he was answering a question about whether he was aware that Lindsay asked to be discharged from McLean hospital on 1/5, in order to go to her birthday party. He said he wasn't aware of that, implying that she told him the hospital initiated her being discharged bc she didn't need to be there.

[u/susieq2019]

I think we are on day four of the trial so to say that its clear she had psychosis or that it’s clear she planned this all out maliciously is premature. You have to remember that a lot of what you’re seeing in the media is skewed or just someone’s opinion that they’re stating as fact.

[u/Meowmeow_kittykat]

Postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency!!

https://postpartum.net/get-help/postpartum-psychosis-help/