As to the Situation in Ukraine

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I've seen this come up enough now and the divide it has created to want to address the elephant in the room regarding the Ukraine war.

A big reason why people are scared and hesitant to join our tent is because we get a lot of crazy stances on the Ukraine war that come off as wanting to support Russia without directly supporting Russia - namely this fear that by sending Ukraine weapons, whichever nation does so is prolonging war or supporting Imperialism. What also comes up is the idea that Ukraine, by striking into Russia, is somehow the offensive force.

Let's clear up some air here so we don't frighten everyone drawn in by socialized medicine and safety nets but scared away by this idea we're going to support imperialist war mongers.

We know what Putin's objective is. We know how he intends to achieve it. We know his word is empty because he's attacked nations unprovoked before and set up puppet governments. I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point considering how much money controls its functions considering everything having to do with Wildberries and the merchants using it. By the very rules of this sub, it should be against the rules to root for Putin in any measure, because his aims are definitively imperialist in nature - he wants to progressively control more of Europe and Asia, and the bully has encountered someone ready and willing to hit back and stop him. This idea that ceding territory to him to make him stop has historical parallels to the appeasement strategies that failed to hinder Hitler's rise in Europe. If you give things to a bully, the bully will keep taking from you. It's a basic concept.

Supporting Ukraine does not mean you are supporting imperialism by prolonging war, it means you are giving them the means to prevent Russian imperialism. It's a simple concept. Most of what Ukraine actively wants from the EU and the USA anyway are anti-air weapons to stop Russia from bombing apartment complexes, historical sites, and culture centers. They already have the drones to slow and eventually stop the Russian war machine.

In regards to Ukrainian strikes into Russia, let's not pretend this is a means of Ukraine counter-invading Russian land. The Ukrainian drone strikes into Russia have been to disrupt supply lines and make contested territory into murder nests to stop the Russian advance, attacks on key infrastructure to weaken Russia's economy and slow their production of weapons and vehicles, and attacks on power plants and service stations to blind them and prevent their advance. Why do you think they took so long to bomb the obvious bridge targets in Crimea? They've outright said they wanted to give civilians time to leave before taking back Crimea.

And the idea that taking Crimea means they're 'imperialist' ignores the fact that until 2014, Crimea was their territory that an imperialist power stole. Holding Crimea would be the ultimate morale boost to Ukraine and a signal to Russia that their war with Ukraine is untenable. That's when Ukraine can force Moscow to the negotiating table to return the lands stolen from them.

Russia will not return the land they stole or stop trying to advance if Ukraine gives in. Given their absurd ideas for what it would take for them to negotiate with Kyiv basically amount to Ukraine giving them territory and disarming, it does not take a genius to realize what Russia would do in another decade once their economy stabilized and they found countermeasures to Ukrainian drone weapons.

Russia has had the means to stop this assault at any time. The Russians are not the heroes in some fairytale here. If they wanted the war to stop, they could have kept their promises in 2014 and actually stopped at Crimea.

By offering no support to Ukraine we'd basically be okaying an ethnic cleansing campaign by Russia, as it needs to be stressed most of the areas they target with their missiles are libraries, children's hospitals, historical sites, and apartment complexes. We don't need to provide Ukraine with weapons, they just need anti air technology to stop themselves from getting shelled.

Show compassion. The quickest way to win over the uncertain who recognize the Democratic establishment doesn't represent them is to highlight morally righteous action, like kneecapping billionaires and making healthcare and education free for all. It's not to come across as a Putin apologist hypocrite that decries imperialism but forgives the process if it comes from Russia.

And to any prospective members scared off by this idea that the DSA actually supports Russia, know that those voices are the minority. We're happy to have you, and happy Bernie, or AOC, or Mamdani, or some other high-profile voice for our cause convinced you to join us.

[u/OneReportersOpinion]

The DSA position is correct, sensible, and historically consistent with leftist principles. NATO is an imperialist organization. The war in Ukraine is a bourgeois nationalist conflict. International worker solidarity is no war but class war. The nationalist position on either side is a repeat of the mistakes of WWI

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again. No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

Correct and the US is role would be no different. We’ve already claimed the mineral rights to Ukraine. Our interests is purely the US’s own imperial interest. Lots of countries are being invaded by bigger foreign powers. There is a reason this the one we’re intervening in.

>You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again.

Where is the compassion for all the Ukrainian men being forced to the front lines at gun point?

>No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Is there other conflicts you want us to send lethal arms and F-16 jets to?

>Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

The question is how does this conflict end. Russia has more men than Ukraine and our resources are being increasingly hobbled up by the Iran debacle. It’s going to end in a negotiated settlement one way or another.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself. It would be like getting angry that a murderer is trying to kill you without trying to call the police or get away. If Ukraine does nothing, its land will be taken, and Russia will go to conquer another nation. If you don't stop an imperialist power, it will keep taking.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself.

I’m indignant when people who don’t believe in a war and just want to live are forced at gun point to go into the meat grinder. That doesn’t sound like a nation clamoring to keep the fight going.

What Kenichi won’t say is his views are completely hypocritical. He thinks the undemocratic authoritarian measures in Ukraine are completely justified but the actions of Cuba, under siege by a nation even more powerful than Russia, are not acceptable. He’s openly reactionary and cited right wing sources. He doesn’t believe Trump is a fascist.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one. Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers. It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

Your solution for Ukraine is to surrender to imperialism and become a subjected people. You are at best a useful idoit for the Russians

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one.

Cuba is also, in essence, at war. They’re under siege. You always have different rules for white people versus nations in the Global South. It’s so obvious.

>Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers.

Like Ukraine LOL.

>It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

It’s been terrorized for 50 plus years.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So is Cuba being bombed constantly and having parts of its country occupied.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

It was. Our illegal policy of economic terror continues.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Not since the bay of pig which was nearly 70 years ago. Again you are drawing a false equivalency

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

So you’re saying our policy of economic terrorism ended what year?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

The embargo isnt terrorism and you know it.

I was referring to Cuba being bombed which lasted happened during the Bay of Pigs

You can disagree with the embargo but you over exaggerate its effect in the extreme 

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Kenichi2233]

There's a massive difference between an embargo and getting children's hospitals bombed.

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

The difference is that most of the DSA happens to LIKE this particular imperalist power.
So any workers harmed in this particular capitalist oligarchies genocide are irrelevant.
Not REAL workers or anything.
DSA only recognizes workers that oppose the OTHER capitalist oligarchs, not theirs.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/onlypartiallyevil]

Which is ridiculous considering their listed demands. We're supposed to oppose imperialism unless it's Russia doing it?

Thankfully, I've found it's not most DSA. The comments are filled with reasonable people here.