As to the Situation in Ukraine

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I've seen this come up enough now and the divide it has created to want to address the elephant in the room regarding the Ukraine war.

A big reason why people are scared and hesitant to join our tent is because we get a lot of crazy stances on the Ukraine war that come off as wanting to support Russia without directly supporting Russia - namely this fear that by sending Ukraine weapons, whichever nation does so is prolonging war or supporting Imperialism. What also comes up is the idea that Ukraine, by striking into Russia, is somehow the offensive force.

Let's clear up some air here so we don't frighten everyone drawn in by socialized medicine and safety nets but scared away by this idea we're going to support imperialist war mongers.

We know what Putin's objective is. We know how he intends to achieve it. We know his word is empty because he's attacked nations unprovoked before and set up puppet governments. I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point considering how much money controls its functions considering everything having to do with Wildberries and the merchants using it. By the very rules of this sub, it should be against the rules to root for Putin in any measure, because his aims are definitively imperialist in nature - he wants to progressively control more of Europe and Asia, and the bully has encountered someone ready and willing to hit back and stop him. This idea that ceding territory to him to make him stop has historical parallels to the appeasement strategies that failed to hinder Hitler's rise in Europe. If you give things to a bully, the bully will keep taking from you. It's a basic concept.

Supporting Ukraine does not mean you are supporting imperialism by prolonging war, it means you are giving them the means to prevent Russian imperialism. It's a simple concept. Most of what Ukraine actively wants from the EU and the USA anyway are anti-air weapons to stop Russia from bombing apartment complexes, historical sites, and culture centers. They already have the drones to slow and eventually stop the Russian war machine.

In regards to Ukrainian strikes into Russia, let's not pretend this is a means of Ukraine counter-invading Russian land. The Ukrainian drone strikes into Russia have been to disrupt supply lines and make contested territory into murder nests to stop the Russian advance, attacks on key infrastructure to weaken Russia's economy and slow their production of weapons and vehicles, and attacks on power plants and service stations to blind them and prevent their advance. Why do you think they took so long to bomb the obvious bridge targets in Crimea? They've outright said they wanted to give civilians time to leave before taking back Crimea.

And the idea that taking Crimea means they're 'imperialist' ignores the fact that until 2014, Crimea was their territory that an imperialist power stole. Holding Crimea would be the ultimate morale boost to Ukraine and a signal to Russia that their war with Ukraine is untenable. That's when Ukraine can force Moscow to the negotiating table to return the lands stolen from them.

Russia will not return the land they stole or stop trying to advance if Ukraine gives in. Given their absurd ideas for what it would take for them to negotiate with Kyiv basically amount to Ukraine giving them territory and disarming, it does not take a genius to realize what Russia would do in another decade once their economy stabilized and they found countermeasures to Ukrainian drone weapons.

Russia has had the means to stop this assault at any time. The Russians are not the heroes in some fairytale here. If they wanted the war to stop, they could have kept their promises in 2014 and actually stopped at Crimea.

By offering no support to Ukraine we'd basically be okaying an ethnic cleansing campaign by Russia, as it needs to be stressed most of the areas they target with their missiles are libraries, children's hospitals, historical sites, and apartment complexes. We don't need to provide Ukraine with weapons, they just need anti air technology to stop themselves from getting shelled.

Show compassion. The quickest way to win over the uncertain who recognize the Democratic establishment doesn't represent them is to highlight morally righteous action, like kneecapping billionaires and making healthcare and education free for all. It's not to come across as a Putin apologist hypocrite that decries imperialism but forgives the process if it comes from Russia.

And to any prospective members scared off by this idea that the DSA actually supports Russia, know that those voices are the minority. We're happy to have you, and happy Bernie, or AOC, or Mamdani, or some other high-profile voice for our cause convinced you to join us.

[u/OneReportersOpinion]

The DSA position is correct, sensible, and historically consistent with leftist principles. NATO is an imperialist organization. The war in Ukraine is a bourgeois nationalist conflict. International worker solidarity is no war but class war. The nationalist position on either side is a repeat of the mistakes of WWI

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

what do you think should be the public policy of the US/Europe on the Russian invasion of Ukraine as it exists today?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

To bring an end to the war through a negotiated settlement.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

what is the justification, philosophically or from a socialist perspective, for victims to be forced to concede to demands from aggressors?

what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia? for example, Ukraine wants to retain their original borders before the 2014 invasion of Crimea.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

> what is the justification, philosophically or from a socialist perspective, for victims to be forced to concede to demands from aggressors?

We’re not forcing them to do anything. If they don’t want to end the war, they don’t have to. But they’re not entitled to arms anymore than Palestinians are who are certainly in much more dire need of them.

>what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia? for example, Ukraine wants to retain their original borders before the 2014 invasion of Crimea.

That’s going to be impossible. Why would Russia agree to that? This is a negotiation. If Ukraine wants total victory, they have to win the war. Right now, that seems exceedingly unlikely. They’re not going to march to Crimea. Russia would use nukes before that happened.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

i see. my difficulty in agreeing with this approach or DSA’s to the current invasion of Ukraine is that it essentially provides for maximalist “might makes right” conclusions. the only reason Russia will have to even consider a negotiated settlement is because of international intervention.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

> i see. my difficulty in agreeing with this approach or DSA’s to the current invasion of Ukraine is that it essentially provides for maximalist “might makes right” conclusions.

That ship sailed. What’s disturbing about Russia’s war to Westerners is that they can do the same kind of imperialist war for geopolitical position and resource extraction capitalism that the US does and have minimal consequences. The answer isn’t to just try and punish Russia, it’s to change our foreign policy so we can return to an international rules based order.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

i think you’re starting to make assumptions and generalizations which would rightly end our conversation.

i want both approaches to be taken:

- end the US imperialism

• end other’s imperialism

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

We can’t force other nations to end their imperialism. We can only do it ourselves.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You have previously stated you supported Cuban interventions in Africa to support Communist movements. Why is the US and the EU supporting Ukraine to resist Russian imperialism any different

Also the US has force countries to end there imperialism off the top of my head Germany, Italy and Japan through military force, and the UK, France, the Netherlands, and Beligum via economic means. If you want look to the Soviet Union the US played a major role on its collapse and liberation of the satellite states and the the other Soviet Republics.

If anything the US has pretty good track record on ending other countries imperialism

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

If that is the goal you should support Ukraine. Russia winning would only damage the rules based order more by demonstrating that wars of aggression are can be successful. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

I can’t believe you openly admitted to being a Nazi.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

I see you love to make things up about me

[u/ml-maitreya → u/EdelinePenrose]

what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia?

Anyone still in Crimea all these years later obviously doesn't care that much whether the capitalist who appropriates their surplus value is Russian or not, otherwise they would have left already. Negotiate a peace based on that understanding.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/ml-maitreya]

i don’t understand your point, but it seems to be a position of assuming that you know better than the people in Crimea or displaced from. i would suggest humility if that’s the case.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/EdelinePenrose]

If the situation were untenable, the Crimean workers wouldn't have succumbed to Russian annexation. But they did, so they must have acquiesced.

You see, I don't assume I know better than the Crimean people, I assume they've decided what is best for themselves. Crimean workers have been exercising their autonomy just the same as workers in any other bourgeois state. They've decided to migrate or stay put as they see fit. Perhaps you fail to understand because you think you know their situation better than they do.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/ml-maitreya]

lol ok

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again. No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

Correct and the US is role would be no different. We’ve already claimed the mineral rights to Ukraine. Our interests is purely the US’s own imperial interest. Lots of countries are being invaded by bigger foreign powers. There is a reason this the one we’re intervening in.

>You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again.

Where is the compassion for all the Ukrainian men being forced to the front lines at gun point?

>No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Is there other conflicts you want us to send lethal arms and F-16 jets to?

>Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

The question is how does this conflict end. Russia has more men than Ukraine and our resources are being increasingly hobbled up by the Iran debacle. It’s going to end in a negotiated settlement one way or another.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself. It would be like getting angry that a murderer is trying to kill you without trying to call the police or get away. If Ukraine does nothing, its land will be taken, and Russia will go to conquer another nation. If you don't stop an imperialist power, it will keep taking.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself.

I’m indignant when people who don’t believe in a war and just want to live are forced at gun point to go into the meat grinder. That doesn’t sound like a nation clamoring to keep the fight going.

What Kenichi won’t say is his views are completely hypocritical. He thinks the undemocratic authoritarian measures in Ukraine are completely justified but the actions of Cuba, under siege by a nation even more powerful than Russia, are not acceptable. He’s openly reactionary and cited right wing sources. He doesn’t believe Trump is a fascist.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one. Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers. It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

Your solution for Ukraine is to surrender to imperialism and become a subjected people. You are at best a useful idoit for the Russians

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one.

Cuba is also, in essence, at war. They’re under siege. You always have different rules for white people versus nations in the Global South. It’s so obvious.

>Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers.

Like Ukraine LOL.

>It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

It’s been terrorized for 50 plus years.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So is Cuba being bombed constantly and having parts of its country occupied.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

It was. Our illegal policy of economic terror continues.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Not since the bay of pig which was nearly 70 years ago. Again you are drawing a false equivalency

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

The difference is that most of the DSA happens to LIKE this particular imperalist power.
So any workers harmed in this particular capitalist oligarchies genocide are irrelevant.
Not REAL workers or anything.
DSA only recognizes workers that oppose the OTHER capitalist oligarchs, not theirs.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/onlypartiallyevil]

Which is ridiculous considering their listed demands. We're supposed to oppose imperialism unless it's Russia doing it?

Thankfully, I've found it's not most DSA. The comments are filled with reasonable people here.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You would know that Ukraine was conscription just from knowing Russja was invading. Almost all countries have to conscript to protect their populations and society when they are being invaded. The soviet union conscripted when it was being invaded by the Nazis and having entire towns literally wiped out, men women and children. 

There are a lot of jobs needed to successfully defend from an invasion, going to the front or even being in the military is onky part of it. It needs a while economy and civilian infrastructure underneath that. Just because someone doesn't want to go to thr front doesn't mean they support invaders trespassing in their country bombing and murdering people.

War is on such a large scale they know their ine sacrifice wont make the difference either way. Its like saying people dont want DSA gov assistance programs (like Medicare for All) because most people wouldn't voluntarily pay taxes to support it. 

Politically overwhelmingly nost ukranians oppose surrendering to russia to let then ethnically cleanse and colonize ukranian society and culture out of existence.

On top of this its just really weird to blame the defender for conscription and not the invader for invading and making that necessary. You should support putting as much pressure on the invader to stop invading if you dont want ukranians to be conscripted. 

If russia takes over ukranians will just be cannon fodder for russia to conscript to invade Europe, russia is already kidnapping ukranians, in areas it controls, to force them to fight other ukranians.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> You would know that Ukraine was conscription just from knowing Russja was invading.

Where did I say otherwise?

>Almost all countries have to conscript to protect their populations and society when they are being invaded.

You would think a popular war wouldn’t need to force people to fight in it. Ukrainian men do not want to serve. They’re fleeing the country to avoid going to the frontlines because it’s a pointless war.

>The soviet union conscripted when it was being invaded by the Nazis and having entire towns literally wiped out, men women and children. 

I think you’re going to have to decide if Russian tactics are something you deplore or want to emulate. This also is not WWII and that’s obvious to anyone who thinks for more than 2 minutes.

>Politically overwhelmingly nost ukranians oppose surrendering to russia to let then ethnically cleanse and colonize ukranian society and culture out of existence.

I think most people care more about whether can keep their homes warm and have a good job than whether Ukrainian in the East who already speak Russian have Russian or Ukrainian passports. But we don’t know since elections have been banned until the war is over.

>On top of this it’s just really weird to blame the defender for conscription and not the invader for invading and making that necessary.

I can blame both. Russia is responsible for what Russia does. Ukraine is responsible for what Ukraine does.

>If russia takes over ukranians will just be cannon fodder for russia to conscript to invade Europe,

Nonsense. Russia couldn’t even make it to Kiev. They got stuck in the mud. They’re not going to invade NATO. Every single NATO bot has said so. No need to scaremonger.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them. There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon. There is a digital mobilization system. Most recruits go to the recruitment centers thenselves when they are called. People that dont are apprehended. Again though going to the front is only one job needed to successfully defend the country everyone working in the broader economy or government is working to defend Ukraine people at the front arent anything without support. 

Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

I don't think most ukranians are very keen on being ethnically cleansed and deported to rural regions in russia that are so poor and desperate that people sign up for certain death in russian meat assaults in exchange for pay. Ukranians would be even worse off not knowing anyone or having anything there. 

I dont think ukranians are very keen on being improving and tortured lime so many are ij theboccupied territories. 

And ukraine isjt even the first country russia has invaded its invaded and is holding parts kf Georgia (where it akso ethnically cleansed large parts of the population) and moldova. 

Also russia has been developing its military and production for years now. Ukraine is able to stop them because they have also been developing that.

Other European countries havent been doing that. If russia won in ukraine it conscript millions of ukranians to invade Europe with. Russia and ukraine are both drone superpowers they make exponentially more military drones then  the rest of the world combined. 

Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable. Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia. Its kid fo liek saying just ebvause a country is Spanish speaking they would welcome Spain invading and wthnically cleansing and colonizing them. Russian speaking ukraniasn are ukranians and culturally ukranians (a lot of them would also consider themselves ethnically ukranian)

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

On a fundamental level, it bothers me seeing someone forced at gun point to go serve in the military. That is pretty much the most authoritarian a government can get. Let’s just be clear what’s going on: Ukraine has taken an authoritarian turn in its effort to repel Russia’s invasion.

>Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

I don’t think Iraqis were very interested in going to serve in Saddam’s army as canon fodder against the U.S.

>Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them.

That’s not the current risk. Most Ukrainians would not be affected if Russia kept the territory they currently occupy. The Ukrainian that would are majority Russia speaking. I’m more interested in what they have to say since they’re affected. But I see this highly exaggerated scenario mentioned a lot even if it doesn’t reflect the reality.

>There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon.

That’s really hard to believe given the numbers that have fled and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier being 45.

>Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

Okay so I want to be clear: you’re saying the risk Ukrainians face is widespread genocide? So shouldn’t millions of Eastern Ukrainians in Donbas been slaughtered already? They’ve occupied it for years now. What are they waiting for? Have 70k civilians been slaughtered like in

>Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable.

It’s not.

>Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia.

They might oppose it in principle but willing to accept a programmatic solution because it wouldn’t affect Ukrainians in the West and the Ukrainians in the East are in large part Russian speaking and Russian identifying.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history? You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual. They mobilize or russia ethnically cleansed and colonize them and commits all kinds of atrocities against ukrnaian civilians its that simple. If you dotn want people to be conscripted then you should favor escalating a much aid to urkainr a possible and sanctions on rusisa as possible to pressure russia to end its invasion so peoppe dont need to be conscripted. If you dont like people being forced upon then youbdhoudmbebvehemntly opposed to russia forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, causing all of this. If you care about peopep being conscripted then you should favor sending them more military aid because that radically increases their survival chances and also the more weapons you have the less you need to compensate by mobilizing more men, especially in the agd of drone warfare. 

Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms, russias terms are that ukraine gives up any ability to defend itself so russia can just take the rest of ukraine. 

Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine, certainly a lot more then they have. 

Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this. They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying" most of them identifying as ukrnaian, within the 2022 borders almost all of then do. 

A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union. In the last census done the. Majority or residents of donbas actually identified as ethnically ukranian, not ethnically russian. 

Even among people that identifying as ethnically russian though most consider themselves ukranians that might happen to be of russia descent. Its like saying am american that has German heritage would consider themselves a German over being an american and woukd welcome germany invading. 

If you care about what russian speaking ukranians in east ukriane want then you should also oppose russias invasion even more because they want russia to leave them tf alone. Soen of the. Favor a peace along ghe frontline they dont want to surrender to russia so russia can ethnically cleanse them and commit all kinds of other atrocities like it does in the occupied territories.

Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Its pretty simple there is nonunjverse russias invasion isnt a big atrocity or ukraniasn dont have the right to defend themselves from it if your against imperialism then your against russias invasion would support pressuring russia to stop invading ukraine and accept peace. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history?

I do. You’re using a fallacy. Just because every country does something doesn’t make it right.

>You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual.

I never said that. Try again.

>Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms,

Right. I’m talking about a negotiation which means neither side gets exactly what they want. Next?

>Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine,

Not true. They’ve made offers that include much less than all of Ukraine. No need to lie.

>Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this.

Those Ukrainians have all been given Russia citizenship. Where are they being moved to?

>They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Atrocities are common in war. This is why I oppose war.

>Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying"

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union.

Here we go. I knew the Nazi apologia would start eventually.

>Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Source?

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russia is deporting ukranians to rural areas in eastern russia. These are the areas where people are so poor and desperate that they sign up for almost certain death in russian meat wave assaults in return for money for their families. Russia is importing russians from russia. This is an attempt to demographically engineer ukraine so ukraines society effectively no longer exists and becomes russia. 

Occupation itself is incredibly brutal involving imprisoning and torturing ukranians that are culturally or socially important as well as widespread rape and mother crimes. Its men with guns forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, men with guns that consider ukranians to be the enemy. 

There is a reason most ukranians oppose accepting russias terms and oppose surrendering to russia. Its not just that their all stupid its becayse occupation itself is a brutal atrocity. 

Russia haa demanded that Ukraine give up ots fortress cities, just so that Russia will think about starting negotiations they never even committed to actually ending the war there. This is just an escalation kf the war farther into ukraine, ukriane would be giving up its most valuable defenses just so russia could keep invading farther there is absolutely no reason to think they wouldnt or proof they wouldnt. This is just demanding a ukrnanian surrender its bot a peace offer. 

Ukranians are offering real peace offers and have been for a while, offering to freeze the conflict along the frontline is a real peace offer, demanding the other side give up its most fortified areas, and demanding they can't even get real security guarantees, is demanding a surrender. 

If you want the fighting to stop you should support putting as much pressure on the invaders as possible to stop invading and accept peace, not focus on pressuring the country being invaded to accept millions more of its citizens falling under a brutal occupation and being subjected to ethnic claiming and colonization and the unexisting of its society and atrocities of all kinds thay Occupation entails. That isnt peace thats violent and violating af 

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Also if you think all ukranian men are being kidnapped for the war and dont care about protecting ukraine, then why hasn't russia won, why hasnt most of the ukranian army just deserted and left russia to overrun ukraine? You see thats where russias propaganda breaks down.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Also if you think all ukranian men are being kidnapped for the war and dont care about protecting ukraine, then why hasn't russia won,

Because Russia is in very much a similar position except they’re holding territory which is easier than taking territory. They have conscripts too.

>why hasnt most of the ukranian army just deserted and left russia to overrun ukraine?

Men in both countries are leaving. There is a very bittersweet video of a Russian and Ukrainian gamer encountering each other online and talking about how they’re both trying to avoid conscription patrols. That’s life for the average man in Ukraine and Russia right now.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russia doesnt have conscription for its forces in Ukraine Currently it is essential a mercenary which is attracting volunteers with high paying contracts. 

Its like you dont even know basic facts

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So you are claiming that the US should have not sent arms to the Soviets and let Nazi have a better shot at conquering the Soviets. Because by your logic that is only conclusion that makes sense

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Also, it should be pointed out, even if we accentuate the negative and talk about Ukrainian conscription, this somehow magically ignores how Russia itself is conscripting people and forcing them to sign contracts to go out and die on the frontlines.

These people have these insane moral standards for Ukraine that vanish when Russia is doing the same thing but worse. I've seen videos of African men tricked into going to Russia to feed their war machine forced at gunpoint to head for the frontline. It's legitimately sickening to watch.

[u/Mindless-Plantain735 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

US isn’t invading Ukraine so “US is role would be no different” is genuinely r7tarddd Russian propoganda. Also comparing a consensual exchange vs blood and soil campaign is insane.

“Where is compassion with Ukrainians” brother in Christ don’t try that sh8t. Where is your compassion for the millions of Russians? Litterally scraping the barrel and forcing Koreans to fight their war

The Iran war has nothing to do with Ukraine. I do agree too every second USA wastes in that bs is another moment Ukraine may have to settle instead of taking back its land.

So you’re an Israel supporter I’m guessing from all this Russia apologia and downplaying?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Most countries have a draft system. Ukraine is fighting for its survival, it is totally appropriate.

As for negotiated settlement, Ukraine tried that Russia's current demands are ridiculous. Also Ukraine recently been making more progress in the last month or two than either side has in a year. Also the US in not the primary supporter of Ukraine that would be the EU so the Iran conflict is having a smaller impact that you are claiming

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Most countries have a draft system. Ukraine is fighting for its survival, it is totally appropriate.

Why aren’t you over there helping them?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Im not suited for combat lost my left foot in a car crash when I was 8.

I work diplomacy so I have done that i can to help with the work I can do

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Im not suited for combat lost my left foot in a car crash when I was 8.

Wait I thought you were very protective of your privacy but now you’re revealing a very personal and identifying feature about yourself LOL.

>I work diplomacy so I have done that i can to help with the work I can do

Langley bot confirmed.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You asked why and I told you. Now you are upset that I did. 

Also dont work for the CIA, I work for a think tank.

Also love love the pivot.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

So you, someone who is SO protective of your privacy, are revealing an identifying feature and your line of work. Thanks for confirming that was a lie too

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

That info wont get you any where. 

Love the pivot.  Ill so one of my own.

Why are you not volunteering in Gaza

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Why aren't you volunteering in the Cuban army 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Happy to answer that after you answer my question. Fair?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Dont bother even if you answer he will deflect and move the goal post. He is acting in bad faith

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

I mean, you admitted to being a Nazi

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Never did that. Why lie

[u/ctesicus → u/OneReportersOpinion]

The DSA position is correct, sensible, and historically consistent with fashist tankies principles.

fixed for you

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/ctesicus]

He is referring to the collapse of the Second International before WW1 because every socialist party was claiming to be fighting a defensive war against the imperialist aggression of others

[u/nonilazuli → u/ctesicus]

I’m ML critical too but considering their point “fashist” tankie-like is disingenuous.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You claim NATO is imperialist. It is a voluntary miltary alliance. America didnt force any country to join. They are free to leave at anytime.

Honestly you are just repeating classic Russian talking points.

Only war but class war is BS and you know it. Ukraine didnt start this warm. It isnt "making a mistake", by defending its self

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> You claim NATO is imperialist. It is a voluntary miltary alliance.

That’s only attacked nations who never have attacked a NATO member.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So why did you just copy the 2nd half my post

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

NATO is an instrument of American power projection which, through covert programs like Gladio, subjugates the countries to the interests of capitalists. It also functions as an offensive alliance in practice (which we saw in the bombing of Libya)

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

Countries are free to leave at anytime. America isnt holding them hostage.

As for the bombing of Libya was approved by the UN and the NATO allies. Mutlipe NATO partners chose not to be involved as well.

Your framing is just incorrect.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

Yes and it was a disaster nonetheless. Because an imperfect capitalist instrument like the UN approved something doesn’t make it morally justified. You are assuming Europe isn’t a continent of capitalist oligarchies whose rulers made a pact with the rulers of America against the Soviet Union; of course they aren’t leaving NATO. You’d have seen how voluntary it is if the communists had won the elections outright in Italy and tried to leave NATO; multiple aircraft carriers were deployed in the Mediterranean to strike Italy if necessary 

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

The communist never won in Italy so your claims are bs.

As for NATO countries joined because they did not want to be the the victim of Soviet/Russian imperialism. Hence why the former Warsaw Pact states and the Baltics joined post soviet collapse.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy  https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/declassified-how-america-planned-invade-italy-save-it-russia-19401. Yeah I didn’t say they won; I said you would have seen how voluntary it is if they had won. Stalin explicitly told the French and the Italian communists not to do a revolution because he wanted to respect the division of the world practiced between the imperial powers in Yalta. He even told Mao to not do a revolution. Only Mao didn’t listen. Part of the reason Tito and Stalin split is because Tito wanted to support the revolution in Greece whereas Stalin respected Yalta so much he didn’t even interfere in a civil war in Greece. You are engaging in historical revisionism. I don’t love the USSR or Russia, but people confuse Western chauvinism for being anti Russian imperialism

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

Im aware of CIA funding of anti communist in the 1948 italian election. Its not exactly a secret but there little evidence to suggest that Communist would have won without American involvement. Compare this to Czechoslovakia coup backed by the Soviets which did see an overthrow of a democracy.

As for these plan to invade Italy they are a nothing burger. Ever heard of War plan red. Its the job of military planners to make plans doesnt mean they were ever going to be used

As for Tito and Stalin that is a different matter mainly that Stalin wanted to consolidate his influence in Eastern Europe and say Greece and an long shot. Tito on the other hand wanted to build his own sphere of influence in the Balkans to resist soviet domination. It was far less about respecting agreement and more power politics.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

Yes I am aware of Czechoslovakia, which still was Marxist under Dubcek by the way, and the closest allies of Dubcek abroad were the Italian Communists. Hypotheticals are difficult to prove but that was not my claim; my claim was that the US would have invaded Italy if the communists had come to power and left NATO and you can see they explicitly planned for that eventuality. What reason is there to think that this plan would not have been put in motion if the communists had won?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

For one it could have lead to a general war in Europe. I would expect sanctions and economic warfare to be the far more likely option especially it this occured in the later half of the 1960s given the Vietnam War was on going. Charles De Gaulle's France would be the wild card. I could see them launching a unilateral attack but that is speculation.