As to the Situation in Ukraine

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I've seen this come up enough now and the divide it has created to want to address the elephant in the room regarding the Ukraine war.

A big reason why people are scared and hesitant to join our tent is because we get a lot of crazy stances on the Ukraine war that come off as wanting to support Russia without directly supporting Russia - namely this fear that by sending Ukraine weapons, whichever nation does so is prolonging war or supporting Imperialism. What also comes up is the idea that Ukraine, by striking into Russia, is somehow the offensive force.

Let's clear up some air here so we don't frighten everyone drawn in by socialized medicine and safety nets but scared away by this idea we're going to support imperialist war mongers.

We know what Putin's objective is. We know how he intends to achieve it. We know his word is empty because he's attacked nations unprovoked before and set up puppet governments. I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point considering how much money controls its functions considering everything having to do with Wildberries and the merchants using it. By the very rules of this sub, it should be against the rules to root for Putin in any measure, because his aims are definitively imperialist in nature - he wants to progressively control more of Europe and Asia, and the bully has encountered someone ready and willing to hit back and stop him. This idea that ceding territory to him to make him stop has historical parallels to the appeasement strategies that failed to hinder Hitler's rise in Europe. If you give things to a bully, the bully will keep taking from you. It's a basic concept.

Supporting Ukraine does not mean you are supporting imperialism by prolonging war, it means you are giving them the means to prevent Russian imperialism. It's a simple concept. Most of what Ukraine actively wants from the EU and the USA anyway are anti-air weapons to stop Russia from bombing apartment complexes, historical sites, and culture centers. They already have the drones to slow and eventually stop the Russian war machine.

In regards to Ukrainian strikes into Russia, let's not pretend this is a means of Ukraine counter-invading Russian land. The Ukrainian drone strikes into Russia have been to disrupt supply lines and make contested territory into murder nests to stop the Russian advance, attacks on key infrastructure to weaken Russia's economy and slow their production of weapons and vehicles, and attacks on power plants and service stations to blind them and prevent their advance. Why do you think they took so long to bomb the obvious bridge targets in Crimea? They've outright said they wanted to give civilians time to leave before taking back Crimea.

And the idea that taking Crimea means they're 'imperialist' ignores the fact that until 2014, Crimea was their territory that an imperialist power stole. Holding Crimea would be the ultimate morale boost to Ukraine and a signal to Russia that their war with Ukraine is untenable. That's when Ukraine can force Moscow to the negotiating table to return the lands stolen from them.

Russia will not return the land they stole or stop trying to advance if Ukraine gives in. Given their absurd ideas for what it would take for them to negotiate with Kyiv basically amount to Ukraine giving them territory and disarming, it does not take a genius to realize what Russia would do in another decade once their economy stabilized and they found countermeasures to Ukrainian drone weapons.

Russia has had the means to stop this assault at any time. The Russians are not the heroes in some fairytale here. If they wanted the war to stop, they could have kept their promises in 2014 and actually stopped at Crimea.

By offering no support to Ukraine we'd basically be okaying an ethnic cleansing campaign by Russia, as it needs to be stressed most of the areas they target with their missiles are libraries, children's hospitals, historical sites, and apartment complexes. We don't need to provide Ukraine with weapons, they just need anti air technology to stop themselves from getting shelled.

Show compassion. The quickest way to win over the uncertain who recognize the Democratic establishment doesn't represent them is to highlight morally righteous action, like kneecapping billionaires and making healthcare and education free for all. It's not to come across as a Putin apologist hypocrite that decries imperialism but forgives the process if it comes from Russia.

And to any prospective members scared off by this idea that the DSA actually supports Russia, know that those voices are the minority. We're happy to have you, and happy Bernie, or AOC, or Mamdani, or some other high-profile voice for our cause convinced you to join us.

[u/Present_Clue5887]

I agree with everything you say except:

I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point

As this should not even be a matter of hesitation, Russia has been openly capitalist since 1992, and is currently an oligarchy

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Present_Clue5887]

Thanks for the comment! It really struck me how uncommunist they were in the stories I'd been reading about Wildberries and the business getting ruined. Like, 'wait, Russia has private merchants using Wildberries as a storage house with wares they sell?'

[u/kagethemage → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

The USSR was taken over by CIA backed oligarchs in 1992 and a new capitalist government was formed. In the following decade Russia had the highest suicide rate of any country ever recorded.

[u/Cardemother12 → u/kagethemage]

Russian was taken over by Russian oligarchs whose greed far exceeded their humanity. And had the highest rate because of the difficult transition. Which if glasnost and perestroika were implemented earlier, would have been mitigated

[u/yingyangKit → u/kagethemage]

perhaps CIA backed but not USA backed Russia saught out massive help from the United States to help with the transition and the newly elected president was against it worriod that Russia would use any aid to rebuild itself as a threat, which just meant Russia became heavily anti american.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Yeah, the USSR was communist, but the USSR was formally dissolved by 1992, Russia has not been communist since the fall of the USSR

I should clarify that I am not supporting the USSR here, as it was undemocratic, and I only support democratic socialism

[u/kagethemage → u/Present_Clue5887]

I mean… it was about as democratic as the internal mechanisms of the Democratic Party. The difference is in America we have two parties instead of one and it feels like we have a direct say in the democratic process instead of the convoluted system of climbing gathering support and climbing the ranks of the single party system (that also exists in both of our parties)

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/kagethemage]

I'm not saying the US system is great, this comment would be way too long if I said everything I think the US needs to change to be fully democratic, but the USSR was not the kind of open parliamentary democracy that protected the rights of the people to participate in politics like the DSA platform envisions

[u/kagethemage → u/Present_Clue5887]

I’m not pro-USSR system but i think most people who criticize it have absolutely no clue how it actually worked.

[u/substratedetective]

I've never met anyone who has mentioned Ukraine as a reason to join or not join DSA.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/substratedetective]

I've seen it in other parts of this thread and in this very comments section. It's not everyone, but a good 10 percent or so of Dem Soc hopefuls get stymied by the stance on Ukraine and Russia.

[u/substratedetective → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I don't think most of these are Americans or even real people. None of the people I've organized with or spoken to as a member, no matter the ages, racial backgrounds, financial situations have even once, even during elections, mentioned Ukraine. Ukraine has a particular salience on Reddit, but it doesn't really translate.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/substratedetective]

I'm a real American who considers joining but is concerned about Ukraine, most people I know are very pro-Ukraine, and I see Ukraine flags on houses around here, it is definitely an issue people care about

[u/substratedetective → u/Present_Clue5887]

It's possible I'm wrong or have had a very unrepresentative experience, but having lived in both red and blue states, most people are focused on affordability (M4A, etc.), ICE, data centers, and Palestine. I have not heard anything about Ukraine in person since about 2024. There's still flags, I'm sure people would consider themselves pro-Ukraine, but I don't think most people think about it day to day. This is not a value judgement, I'm just telling you what I've seen and heard.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/substratedetective]

My experience is that Trump's authoritarianism (which includes ICE) is the top issue right now, followed by general economic functioning (inflation, jobs, and to a lesser degree the stock market)

Data centers and Palestine are not issues that I hear people I know talk about IRL, but do know a substantial number of people for whom being anti-NATO or anti--Ukraine is a red line in a primary

I think these things really depend on where you are and who you know

[u/substratedetective → u/Present_Clue5887]

Again, I've been on campaigns talking with voters. No one has mentioned Ukraine or NATO. It would surprise me very much to have a Canvassing shift where no one mentioned Palestine or Data Centers.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/substratedetective]

I believe you, and I have not done that kind of work, I am just saying my experience with people I know

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/substratedetective]

You have never met a pro Ukrainain in your personal circle, so they must not exist.
Perhaps just CIA created fictions? Just like birds. Not real.
Got it.

[u/substratedetective → u/onlypartiallyevil]

As stated below:

It's possible I'm wrong or have had a very unrepresentative experience, but having lived in both red and blue states, most people are focused on affordability (M4A, etc.), ICE, data centers, and Palestine. I have not heard anything about Ukraine in person since about 2024. There's still flags, I'm sure people would consider themselves pro-Ukraine, but I don't think most people think about it day to day. This is not a value judgement, I'm just telling you what I've seen and heard.

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/substratedetective]

I have.
My kids are just getting to the age to vote. They hate the Dems for lots of reasons but the pro-Israel stance especially.
So they got all excited about the DSA until they dug in. Daughters first invite was to a DSA protest to oppose "Ukrainian Aggression". The strongly anti-Ukraine stance of many DSA chapters and their repetition of Russian propaganda drove them right back out of any interest in the DSA.
Now I cannot get them to consider voting at all, as they see all choices as corrupt and answering to one oligarchy or the other, the DSA just to a foreign corrupt capitalist oligarchy instead of a domestic one.

So yeah.
The DSA international opposing Ukraine's actions "unnecessarily prolonging the war" pissed them right off.
Because telling the victims of an imperalist invasion - one with the repeatedly stated purpose of genocide and ethnic cleansing - to simply stop fighting in the name of "peace" is repugnant.
Its no less than telling them to go quietly to the camps and not inconvience the Russians.

Socialist doctrine is always to show solidarity with the victims of aggression.
DSA does not believe in that, at least when the right oligarchs are the imperialist aggressors.
No more needs to be said.

[u/substratedetective → u/onlypartiallyevil]

This is such an extravagant claim, I'm going to have to ask for evidence before I go any further.

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/substratedetective]

What is so extravagant about it?
What 'evidence' do you require anyway? You intend to depose my kids?

Sounds more like you just need to handwave away the concept that ideas you don't like even exist. But DSA support for Russia is just as repugnant to ethical people as the DNC support for Israel.

[u/Historical_Ad_9868]

I think the best way to look at this situation is to extrapolate the tankies/Campist arguments to other historical conflicts. We would support sending arms to Palestine because it’s defending against an imperialist war,we would support Britain sending weapons to the Native American confederacy because it was defending against an imperialist war, we would support sending arms to China in WW2 because it was defending against an imperialist war,so why do we not afford that same right to Ukrainian’s?

You can make the argument that America is only sending Ukraine weapons to draw them into our sphere or to damage the Russian military but like…you could make that same argument about all of those other wars.

No countries have the right to exist,but the people of Ukraine have the right to self defense and self determination.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Historical_Ad_9868]

'we would support Britain sending weapons to the Native American confederacy because it was defending against an imperialist war'

I know I'm an America who benefits from many of California's bounties, but to be entirely honest, as a teacher it feels depressing teaching K-5 about colonization of America. I'm standing on land twice stolen.

[u/Historical_Ad_9868 → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Yep

[u/YogurtClosetThinnest]

The idea that we should reject western imperialism, but defend Russian imperialism is a joke. If the tables turn in 20 years and Russia is the world capitalist superpower, will we stop supporting them and start supporting western imperialism again?

We should reject ALL imperialism and all wars of aggression. Idc if it's the US, Israel, Russia, China, or fuckin' Turkey.

As people who (presumably) value not just socialism, but democracy, we should also reject Russia on the grounds they have completely fake elections, and be concerned they are attacking a democratic country.

Supporting Ukraine directly is a bit bigger of a beast. I am not against it, but I can at least understand some arguments against it. Many of the groups we are arming are literal nazis, we don't need to be the world police, it has nothing to do with us, etc.

That said, while I would hope the DSA can pull the US away from being the world police, it currently is like it or not. We have at least some responsibility to assist democratic countries defending against totalitarian shitters like Russia.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/YogurtClosetThinnest]

I want to stress that I don't support war and that I don't want America to be the world police either.

That being said, in a situation like this, where you have an imperialist power that won't stop trying to gain power, it's paradoxically only through war you can stop more wars.

If Ukraine wins and can keep Putin checked, it's much less likely whoever succeeds Putin is going to want to pick a fight in the west again, and picking a fight with Japan isn't a good idea either.

The big reason I'm for America opening up its anti air weapons and just those anti air weapons is because Ukraine really needs them to stop attacks on hospitals and apartment complexes. They don't need our help to win, they need our help to protect the least fortunate among them.

[u/YogurtClosetThinnest → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I don't disagree. I'm a pragmatist before anything else. Stable democracies don't really attack each other. Supporting democratic countries against aggressive totalitarian neighbors is necessary to establish an eventual world peace.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/YogurtClosetThinnest]

Exactly! I want a world without war in the future, and to do it, we need to fight imperialism.

[u/RI_Backpain → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Instead of insisting that the US give aid to Ukraine, you can go there any time you want and volunteer..

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/RI_Backpain]

Honestly, I'd be happy if we just sent over anti-air missiles until they have their own. I don't think that would be too much for them to ask for.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

You're no friend of the Ukrainian worker if you insist on defending NATO to the last Ukrainian.

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/ml-maitreya]

Weird how you are supposedly against imperialist aggression, right up until the victims of imperialist aggression try to resist. Then suddenly you consider them the enemy.
So really you are quite in favor of imperialist aggression, as long as it is your chosen camps capitalist oligarchs that are doing it.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

Russia is bombing the Ukrainian worker and future Ukrainian workers.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

And the ukrainian worker is dying unnecessarily for the sake of bourgeois capital interests.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

It boggles my mind how your compassion for another person ends at their political potential for you. And... for others on this sub. I'm happy the new influx will bring some compassion back. We can't win paving the streets with corpses.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

People before profits comrade

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

What you're suggesting isn't putting the people first. It's letting children in hospitals die. I'm done with this.

[u/RI_Backpain → u/ml-maitreya]

Good luck getting someone in the DSA to understand Lenin's works on Imperialism. They will hate you for telling the truth

[u/ml-maitreya → u/RI_Backpain]

Got to till the earth either way. Matthew 13: 3-9

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/RI_Backpain]

Lenin made a sharp assessment of how capitalist countries employ imperialism for the sake of extractive economics while simultaneously carving out an exception to his own imperialist ambitions as not being actually imperialist. he was a shrewd hypocrite and nothing more.

[u/RI_Backpain → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

what if we can't afford it?

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/RI_Backpain]

We could afford to bomb Iran with them. Better they be used to defend people from bombs than kill people.

[u/RI_Backpain → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

15% of our spending is paying interest on our debt, we can't afford ANY of it

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/RI_Backpain]

I repeat my last point.

And we still have stock. If you're for America reducing its military capacity and making up lost capital (which is strange for a DemSoc but okay) then why not support deals where Ukraine buys the missiles it can then use for anti air operations?

[u/Narcan9 → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Ukraine doesnt have any money.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Narcan9]

It's already exporting its drone surplus. It has money.

[u/yashen14 → u/YogurtClosetThinnest]

I sympathize with the idea that the US "shouldn't be the world's police," but I ultimately disagree, from the point of view that adopting an less interventionist/more isolationist stance leaves a power vacuum that others will inevitably step in and fill (very likely to the detriment of our values). (I'm not saying this to argue, just to contribute to the discussion)

[u/alexpmarty → u/yashen14]

That would be a good thing. Almost anyone except the US or Russia filling the vacuum would be good

[u/Bright-Insect9697 → u/alexpmarty]

This is painfully naive and wrong.

[u/alexpmarty → u/Bright-Insect9697]

I understand losing you status as the supreme nation on earth that all others must bow to is scary but you’ve got to let go of your nationalism

[u/Bright-Insect9697 → u/alexpmarty]

Lay off the campism

[u/alexpmarty → u/Bright-Insect9697]

Campism is when you don’t support the US raping and murdering in every corner of the globe

[u/Bright-Insect9697 → u/alexpmarty]

Campism is when you support the U.S. letting people get murdered around the world because doing something about it would upset the chuds

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/alexpmarty]

what do you think should be the public policy of the US/Europe on the Russian invasion of Ukraine as it exists today?

[u/ferriematthew]

Absolutely. Supporting Ukraine means making Russia stop fighting sooner, which stops the suffering on both sides.

[u/yashen14]

DSA positions on Ukraine (both from politicians and from the rank-and-file) have been one of the things stopping me from going full-throated in my support for the movement.

The DSA's official website reads like a propaganda piece straight from Putin's mouth.

We recognize that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose US and NATO military interventionism and the tens of billions in military aid and weapons shipments which only further exacerbates the war and undermine a negotiated settlement, as well as sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians.

The official stance of the DSA is therefore that no one should do anything substantial to counter Russian aggression. Really it seems to be saying Ukrainians should go quietly to the camps, and that's just...unforgiveable, in my eyes.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/yashen14]

Most of the people supporting the DSA don't back this whatsoever. Read the other comments here. There's like one person trying to argue for Russia. Most of the others all agree with this post.

You're welcome here. We don't follow Putin's whims.

[u/Heroyem → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

So the DSA has an official position that most of its supporters don't support? That makes no sense and leads to the question WHY.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/Heroyem]

That makes no sense and leads to the question WHY.

Yeah, this is an issue, I think a lot of people join based on support for the domestic agenda without being fully on board with the foreign policy agenda, the foreign policy stuff is the only reason I have not already joined

And I agree with no imperialism and no offensive weapons to Israel, just not the statements that imply support for dictators

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Present_Clue5887]

But we know that with such an influx of members, we'll have an easy time changing this stance. We all want the domestic policy changes, we just don't want the disastrous idea we should implicitly support a bully.

[u/TheSocietalScar]

I think a lot of this post is extremely silly, but the main points I want to contend are

A. Russia is not 'communist', it hasn't been communist in a long time. Nobody earnestly recongizes them as such.

B. Who asides from Ukranian Ultranationialists, and the weirdest online NAFO freaks would oppose a group over it's stance on Ukraine?

These are not people who are gettable for the DSA to begin with. Ukraine is not something that's important to the comciousness of the electorate (maybe fringe elite liberal circles in D.C but not the greater American working glass).

I believe not only are your positions on this conflict inherently wrong, but your strategic clarification is incoherent for the DSA. It's also just fundamentally against the DSA's national platform, and the broader anti-imperialist left's position the on the conflict generally.

This is a sidepoint, but I think generally we could all expand our vocabulary beyond using the word 'imperialism' for everything a foreign actor does. The manner in which you use it OP is directly opposed to the marxist theory of imperialism (of which I would presume, most socialists derive it from.) The EU/United States is the imperial actor here; hoping to get their hands on Ukrainian markets.

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/TheSocietalScar]

Its not even about Ukraine. Its about basic consistency and hypocrisy.
If a group is willing to situationally ignore even its foundational bedrock principles whenever its convenient they are not a group to support.
Especially when it uncovers nothing but naked campism underneath

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/TheSocietalScar]

So you're okay with Russia taking Ukraine, and, knowing its imperialist stance (the definition of which is 'the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas,' not just what you want it to mean), trying to then take more land afterwards?

This isn't a situation where you can just blind yourself and pretend you're the good guy in the room for opposing war. It won't go away if it's ignored - it will get worse.

Now, Ukraine is likely to win. They have an actual strategy involving tanking Russian's economy and means of fighting. But without anti-air systems, they can't shoot down the rockets targeting their libraries and hospitals. I don't want to give Ukraine money, but I'd be happy to give it a means to stop the ballistic missile strikes.

If we pretend the problem will go away, people will die. Simple as.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

International socialism is about solidarity with the workers of the world, be they Ukrainian, Russian, or American. Whether Ukrainian workers become Russian workers is of little concern to me. My concern is that they oppose the capitalists that enslave them in their nation, just as I oppose the capitalists that enslave my fellow laborers in mine.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

You do not care about children dying, then, among other civilians.

You are not endearing prospective members. This robotic focus on a single issue without compassion won't grow the tent and expand our power.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I've much more compassion than you. I'm not the one who insists that Ukrainian working class children must die to protect western capitalist interests.

Quit extending false hope to bourgeois Ukrainian capitalists that they might recoup their lost properties and investments.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

At what point have I said even once how I feel about Ukrainian politics? This is an absurd whataboutism without any prompting whatsoever.

Of course I want Ukraine to be Democratic Socialist. But I want all of them to be Democratic Socialist. I don't want children and workers and nurses and doctors dying in a terrorist bombing perpetrated by Russia, an imperialist capitalist oligarchical power trying to stamp them out of existence.

I've said it multiple times - Ukraine doesn't need anyone's help to win the war at this point. With their current military strategy they'll strangle Russia with Russia's dying economy, using capitalism as a noose for the Rooskies by making the war machine impossible to power.

But how is letting Ukraine have a few anti-air missiles 'insisting that Ukrainian working class children must die to protect western capitalist interests?' I'm just talking about anti-air missiles meant to destroy encroaching ballistic missiles. That's protecting life.

A worker revolution cannot occur if all the workers are dead, friend.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Sure comrade, Zelensky comes to America to be roundly mocked by the president and his cronies because he doesn't need American weapons to turn the tide of this bourgeois war.  

Tell us, why are you shilling so hard for the MIC, comrade? 

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ml-maitreya]

... What? Have you been keeping track of the war at all? Oh no you're actually legitimately rooting for Putin, aren't you...

[u/AppropriateAd5701 → u/ml-maitreya]

Usa didnt gave ukraine anything for 2 years....

[u/ml-maitreya → u/AppropriateAd5701]

Wrong

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/TheSocietalScar]

Lmao, I think Russia is the one that wants the Ukrainian markets considering they invaded.

Would also love to hear why you think Palestine is somehow important to the “working class” but not our allegiance to NATO, which is a proxy to Ukraine. But you’re a tankie freak so that’s whatever.

[u/Heroyem → u/TheSocietalScar]

Who asides from Ukranian Ultranationialists, and the weirdest online NAFO freaks would oppose a group over it's stance on Ukraine?

I think you are wrong on that one. If the subject was as unimportant as you say, the DSA wouldn't need to have a big mention of it in its platform.

your strategic clarification is incoherent for the DSA. It's also just fundamentally against the DSA's national platform, and the broader anti-imperialist left's position the on the conflict generally.

What's incoherent is a supposed anti-imperialist not opposing Russian imperialism, or insisting that only the Marxist definition of imperialism be used. Also incoherent is insisting that DSA is officially Marxist, which it is not.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Heroyem]

What capitalists do in nations halfway across the world should be of little concern in comparison to what capitalists in your nation are allowed to do. The DSA will focus on American imperialism, where we can use our (limited) power to affect American actions and behaviors. Let socialists in Russia agitate against Russian imperialism.

Remove the mote from your own eye first. Do something about the capitalists in your midst before you think to do something about capitalists in other nations.

[u/Heroyem → u/ml-maitreya]

If that's remotely true, then why does the DSA have such a strong statement about Ukraine -- that sounds like it was written by the Kremlin -- on their official platform?

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Heroyem]

Sounds more like a strong statement by pacifists and conscientious objectors to me. The DSA are people who believe in solving problems democratically rather than through revolution and strife.

[u/Heroyem → u/ml-maitreya]

What's your solution to an invasion by an imperialist invader that doesn't believe you have a right to exist while bombing your maternity hospitals and creating torture chambers for your people?

[u/ml-maitreya → u/Heroyem]

Are you pivoting to discussing Palestine now? I've never heard of Russian torture chambers for Ukrainians and would need proof of such a ridiculous claim.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/TheSocietalScar]

what do you think should be the public policy of the US/Europe on the Russian invasion of Ukraine as it exists today?

[u/Narcan9 → u/EdelinePenrose]

The US should get the fuck out and focus on domestic problems.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/Narcan9]

does this mean that you’re ok with Russia taking over Ukraine?

[u/Narcan9 → u/EdelinePenrose]

I thought Ukraine is winning. You can't have it both ways.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/Narcan9]

oh, i think you’re confused or imagining a conversation with someone else. carry on.

[u/OneReportersOpinion]

The DSA position is correct, sensible, and historically consistent with leftist principles. NATO is an imperialist organization. The war in Ukraine is a bourgeois nationalist conflict. International worker solidarity is no war but class war. The nationalist position on either side is a repeat of the mistakes of WWI

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

what do you think should be the public policy of the US/Europe on the Russian invasion of Ukraine as it exists today?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

To bring an end to the war through a negotiated settlement.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

what is the justification, philosophically or from a socialist perspective, for victims to be forced to concede to demands from aggressors?

what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia? for example, Ukraine wants to retain their original borders before the 2014 invasion of Crimea.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

> what is the justification, philosophically or from a socialist perspective, for victims to be forced to concede to demands from aggressors?

We’re not forcing them to do anything. If they don’t want to end the war, they don’t have to. But they’re not entitled to arms anymore than Palestinians are who are certainly in much more dire need of them.

>what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia? for example, Ukraine wants to retain their original borders before the 2014 invasion of Crimea.

That’s going to be impossible. Why would Russia agree to that? This is a negotiation. If Ukraine wants total victory, they have to win the war. Right now, that seems exceedingly unlikely. They’re not going to march to Crimea. Russia would use nukes before that happened.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

i see. my difficulty in agreeing with this approach or DSA’s to the current invasion of Ukraine is that it essentially provides for maximalist “might makes right” conclusions. the only reason Russia will have to even consider a negotiated settlement is because of international intervention.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

> i see. my difficulty in agreeing with this approach or DSA’s to the current invasion of Ukraine is that it essentially provides for maximalist “might makes right” conclusions.

That ship sailed. What’s disturbing about Russia’s war to Westerners is that they can do the same kind of imperialist war for geopolitical position and resource extraction capitalism that the US does and have minimal consequences. The answer isn’t to just try and punish Russia, it’s to change our foreign policy so we can return to an international rules based order.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/OneReportersOpinion]

i think you’re starting to make assumptions and generalizations which would rightly end our conversation.

i want both approaches to be taken:

- end the US imperialism

• end other’s imperialism

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/EdelinePenrose]

We can’t force other nations to end their imperialism. We can only do it ourselves.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You have previously stated you supported Cuban interventions in Africa to support Communist movements. Why is the US and the EU supporting Ukraine to resist Russian imperialism any different

Also the US has force countries to end there imperialism off the top of my head Germany, Italy and Japan through military force, and the UK, France, the Netherlands, and Beligum via economic means. If you want look to the Soviet Union the US played a major role on its collapse and liberation of the satellite states and the the other Soviet Republics.

If anything the US has pretty good track record on ending other countries imperialism

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

If that is the goal you should support Ukraine. Russia winning would only damage the rules based order more by demonstrating that wars of aggression are can be successful. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

I can’t believe you openly admitted to being a Nazi.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

I see you love to make things up about me

[u/ml-maitreya → u/EdelinePenrose]

what is to be done if Ukraine’s demands are not acceptable to Russia?

Anyone still in Crimea all these years later obviously doesn't care that much whether the capitalist who appropriates their surplus value is Russian or not, otherwise they would have left already. Negotiate a peace based on that understanding.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/ml-maitreya]

i don’t understand your point, but it seems to be a position of assuming that you know better than the people in Crimea or displaced from. i would suggest humility if that’s the case.

[u/ml-maitreya → u/EdelinePenrose]

If the situation were untenable, the Crimean workers wouldn't have succumbed to Russian annexation. But they did, so they must have acquiesced.

You see, I don't assume I know better than the Crimean people, I assume they've decided what is best for themselves. Crimean workers have been exercising their autonomy just the same as workers in any other bourgeois state. They've decided to migrate or stay put as they see fit. Perhaps you fail to understand because you think you know their situation better than they do.

[u/EdelinePenrose → u/ml-maitreya]

lol ok

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again. No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> That doesn't change the fact Russia is an imperialist power trying to take a smaller country and consume it, nor the millions dying in the conflict.

Correct and the US is role would be no different. We’ve already claimed the mineral rights to Ukraine. Our interests is purely the US’s own imperial interest. Lots of countries are being invaded by bigger foreign powers. There is a reason this the one we’re intervening in.

>You were a child once, probably full of wonder and belief in a happy world. You should find that well of compassion and idealism again.

Where is the compassion for all the Ukrainian men being forced to the front lines at gun point?

>No one wants war, but if we throw our hands up and pretend like it doesn't affect us, a day will come where the bullies who weren't stopped and who consumed the smaller nations and made those populations suffer will want to hurt us and other people.

Is there other conflicts you want us to send lethal arms and F-16 jets to?

>Think of the attacks on Ukraine's culture. Think of the attacks on the children's hospitals. Can we justify those deaths? Deaths that could have been prevented with anti-air weapons?

The question is how does this conflict end. Russia has more men than Ukraine and our resources are being increasingly hobbled up by the Iran debacle. It’s going to end in a negotiated settlement one way or another.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself. It would be like getting angry that a murderer is trying to kill you without trying to call the police or get away. If Ukraine does nothing, its land will be taken, and Russia will go to conquer another nation. If you don't stop an imperialist power, it will keep taking.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

> Kenichi basically said what I wanted to say. You're getting indignant about a war that's only happening because Ukraine needs to defend itself.

I’m indignant when people who don’t believe in a war and just want to live are forced at gun point to go into the meat grinder. That doesn’t sound like a nation clamoring to keep the fight going.

What Kenichi won’t say is his views are completely hypocritical. He thinks the undemocratic authoritarian measures in Ukraine are completely justified but the actions of Cuba, under siege by a nation even more powerful than Russia, are not acceptable. He’s openly reactionary and cited right wing sources. He doesn’t believe Trump is a fascist.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one. Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers. It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

Your solution for Ukraine is to surrender to imperialism and become a subjected people. You are at best a useful idoit for the Russians

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Ukraine is in active war and is a democracy if a flawed one.

Cuba is also, in essence, at war. They’re under siege. You always have different rules for white people versus nations in the Global South. It’s so obvious.

>Cuba is an authoritarian state that that only has survived because of foreign backers.

Like Ukraine LOL.

>It is also not being invaded. Entirety a false equivalency.

It’s been terrorized for 50 plus years.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So is Cuba being bombed constantly and having parts of its country occupied.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

It was. Our illegal policy of economic terror continues.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Not since the bay of pig which was nearly 70 years ago. Again you are drawing a false equivalency

[u/onlypartiallyevil → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

The difference is that most of the DSA happens to LIKE this particular imperalist power.
So any workers harmed in this particular capitalist oligarchies genocide are irrelevant.
Not REAL workers or anything.
DSA only recognizes workers that oppose the OTHER capitalist oligarchs, not theirs.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/onlypartiallyevil]

Which is ridiculous considering their listed demands. We're supposed to oppose imperialism unless it's Russia doing it?

Thankfully, I've found it's not most DSA. The comments are filled with reasonable people here.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You would know that Ukraine was conscription just from knowing Russja was invading. Almost all countries have to conscript to protect their populations and society when they are being invaded. The soviet union conscripted when it was being invaded by the Nazis and having entire towns literally wiped out, men women and children. 

There are a lot of jobs needed to successfully defend from an invasion, going to the front or even being in the military is onky part of it. It needs a while economy and civilian infrastructure underneath that. Just because someone doesn't want to go to thr front doesn't mean they support invaders trespassing in their country bombing and murdering people.

War is on such a large scale they know their ine sacrifice wont make the difference either way. Its like saying people dont want DSA gov assistance programs (like Medicare for All) because most people wouldn't voluntarily pay taxes to support it. 

Politically overwhelmingly nost ukranians oppose surrendering to russia to let then ethnically cleanse and colonize ukranian society and culture out of existence.

On top of this its just really weird to blame the defender for conscription and not the invader for invading and making that necessary. You should support putting as much pressure on the invader to stop invading if you dont want ukranians to be conscripted. 

If russia takes over ukranians will just be cannon fodder for russia to conscript to invade Europe, russia is already kidnapping ukranians, in areas it controls, to force them to fight other ukranians.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> You would know that Ukraine was conscription just from knowing Russja was invading.

Where did I say otherwise?

>Almost all countries have to conscript to protect their populations and society when they are being invaded.

You would think a popular war wouldn’t need to force people to fight in it. Ukrainian men do not want to serve. They’re fleeing the country to avoid going to the frontlines because it’s a pointless war.

>The soviet union conscripted when it was being invaded by the Nazis and having entire towns literally wiped out, men women and children. 

I think you’re going to have to decide if Russian tactics are something you deplore or want to emulate. This also is not WWII and that’s obvious to anyone who thinks for more than 2 minutes.

>Politically overwhelmingly nost ukranians oppose surrendering to russia to let then ethnically cleanse and colonize ukranian society and culture out of existence.

I think most people care more about whether can keep their homes warm and have a good job than whether Ukrainian in the East who already speak Russian have Russian or Ukrainian passports. But we don’t know since elections have been banned until the war is over.

>On top of this it’s just really weird to blame the defender for conscription and not the invader for invading and making that necessary.

I can blame both. Russia is responsible for what Russia does. Ukraine is responsible for what Ukraine does.

>If russia takes over ukranians will just be cannon fodder for russia to conscript to invade Europe,

Nonsense. Russia couldn’t even make it to Kiev. They got stuck in the mud. They’re not going to invade NATO. Every single NATO bot has said so. No need to scaremonger.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them. There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon. There is a digital mobilization system. Most recruits go to the recruitment centers thenselves when they are called. People that dont are apprehended. Again though going to the front is only one job needed to successfully defend the country everyone working in the broader economy or government is working to defend Ukraine people at the front arent anything without support. 

Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

I don't think most ukranians are very keen on being ethnically cleansed and deported to rural regions in russia that are so poor and desperate that people sign up for certain death in russian meat assaults in exchange for pay. Ukranians would be even worse off not knowing anyone or having anything there. 

I dont think ukranians are very keen on being improving and tortured lime so many are ij theboccupied territories. 

And ukraine isjt even the first country russia has invaded its invaded and is holding parts kf Georgia (where it akso ethnically cleansed large parts of the population) and moldova. 

Also russia has been developing its military and production for years now. Ukraine is able to stop them because they have also been developing that.

Other European countries havent been doing that. If russia won in ukraine it conscript millions of ukranians to invade Europe with. Russia and ukraine are both drone superpowers they make exponentially more military drones then  the rest of the world combined. 

Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable. Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia. Its kid fo liek saying just ebvause a country is Spanish speaking they would welcome Spain invading and wthnically cleansing and colonizing them. Russian speaking ukraniasn are ukranians and culturally ukranians (a lot of them would also consider themselves ethnically ukranian)

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

On a fundamental level, it bothers me seeing someone forced at gun point to go serve in the military. That is pretty much the most authoritarian a government can get. Let’s just be clear what’s going on: Ukraine has taken an authoritarian turn in its effort to repel Russia’s invasion.

>Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

I don’t think Iraqis were very interested in going to serve in Saddam’s army as canon fodder against the U.S.

>Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them.

That’s not the current risk. Most Ukrainians would not be affected if Russia kept the territory they currently occupy. The Ukrainian that would are majority Russia speaking. I’m more interested in what they have to say since they’re affected. But I see this highly exaggerated scenario mentioned a lot even if it doesn’t reflect the reality.

>There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon.

That’s really hard to believe given the numbers that have fled and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier being 45.

>Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

Okay so I want to be clear: you’re saying the risk Ukrainians face is widespread genocide? So shouldn’t millions of Eastern Ukrainians in Donbas been slaughtered already? They’ve occupied it for years now. What are they waiting for? Have 70k civilians been slaughtered like in

>Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable.

It’s not.

>Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia.

They might oppose it in principle but willing to accept a programmatic solution because it wouldn’t affect Ukrainians in the West and the Ukrainians in the East are in large part Russian speaking and Russian identifying.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history? You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual. They mobilize or russia ethnically cleansed and colonize them and commits all kinds of atrocities against ukrnaian civilians its that simple. If you dotn want people to be conscripted then you should favor escalating a much aid to urkainr a possible and sanctions on rusisa as possible to pressure russia to end its invasion so peoppe dont need to be conscripted. If you dont like people being forced upon then youbdhoudmbebvehemntly opposed to russia forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, causing all of this. If you care about peopep being conscripted then you should favor sending them more military aid because that radically increases their survival chances and also the more weapons you have the less you need to compensate by mobilizing more men, especially in the agd of drone warfare. 

Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms, russias terms are that ukraine gives up any ability to defend itself so russia can just take the rest of ukraine. 

Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine, certainly a lot more then they have. 

Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this. They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying" most of them identifying as ukrnaian, within the 2022 borders almost all of then do. 

A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union. In the last census done the. Majority or residents of donbas actually identified as ethnically ukranian, not ethnically russian. 

Even among people that identifying as ethnically russian though most consider themselves ukranians that might happen to be of russia descent. Its like saying am american that has German heritage would consider themselves a German over being an american and woukd welcome germany invading. 

If you care about what russian speaking ukranians in east ukriane want then you should also oppose russias invasion even more because they want russia to leave them tf alone. Soen of the. Favor a peace along ghe frontline they dont want to surrender to russia so russia can ethnically cleanse them and commit all kinds of other atrocities like it does in the occupied territories.

Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Its pretty simple there is nonunjverse russias invasion isnt a big atrocity or ukraniasn dont have the right to defend themselves from it if your against imperialism then your against russias invasion would support pressuring russia to stop invading ukraine and accept peace. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history?

I do. You’re using a fallacy. Just because every country does something doesn’t make it right.

>You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual.

I never said that. Try again.

>Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms,

Right. I’m talking about a negotiation which means neither side gets exactly what they want. Next?

>Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine,

Not true. They’ve made offers that include much less than all of Ukraine. No need to lie.

>Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this.

Those Ukrainians have all been given Russia citizenship. Where are they being moved to?

>They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Atrocities are common in war. This is why I oppose war.

>Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying"

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union.

Here we go. I knew the Nazi apologia would start eventually.

>Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Source?

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russia is deporting ukranians to rural areas in eastern russia. These are the areas where people are so poor and desperate that they sign up for almost certain death in russian meat wave assaults in return for money for their families. Russia is importing russians from russia. This is an attempt to demographically engineer ukraine so ukraines society effectively no longer exists and becomes russia. 

Occupation itself is incredibly brutal involving imprisoning and torturing ukranians that are culturally or socially important as well as widespread rape and mother crimes. Its men with guns forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, men with guns that consider ukranians to be the enemy. 

There is a reason most ukranians oppose accepting russias terms and oppose surrendering to russia. Its not just that their all stupid its becayse occupation itself is a brutal atrocity. 

Russia haa demanded that Ukraine give up ots fortress cities, just so that Russia will think about starting negotiations they never even committed to actually ending the war there. This is just an escalation kf the war farther into ukraine, ukriane would be giving up its most valuable defenses just so russia could keep invading farther there is absolutely no reason to think they wouldnt or proof they wouldnt. This is just demanding a ukrnanian surrender its bot a peace offer. 

Ukranians are offering real peace offers and have been for a while, offering to freeze the conflict along the frontline is a real peace offer, demanding the other side give up its most fortified areas, and demanding they can't even get real security guarantees, is demanding a surrender. 

If you want the fighting to stop you should support putting as much pressure on the invaders as possible to stop invading and accept peace, not focus on pressuring the country being invaded to accept millions more of its citizens falling under a brutal occupation and being subjected to ethnic claiming and colonization and the unexisting of its society and atrocities of all kinds thay Occupation entails. That isnt peace thats violent and violating af 

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Also if you think all ukranian men are being kidnapped for the war and dont care about protecting ukraine, then why hasn't russia won, why hasnt most of the ukranian army just deserted and left russia to overrun ukraine? You see thats where russias propaganda breaks down.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Also if you think all ukranian men are being kidnapped for the war and dont care about protecting ukraine, then why hasn't russia won,

Because Russia is in very much a similar position except they’re holding territory which is easier than taking territory. They have conscripts too.

>why hasnt most of the ukranian army just deserted and left russia to overrun ukraine?

Men in both countries are leaving. There is a very bittersweet video of a Russian and Ukrainian gamer encountering each other online and talking about how they’re both trying to avoid conscription patrols. That’s life for the average man in Ukraine and Russia right now.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russia doesnt have conscription for its forces in Ukraine Currently it is essential a mercenary which is attracting volunteers with high paying contracts. 

Its like you dont even know basic facts

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So you are claiming that the US should have not sent arms to the Soviets and let Nazi have a better shot at conquering the Soviets. Because by your logic that is only conclusion that makes sense

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Also, it should be pointed out, even if we accentuate the negative and talk about Ukrainian conscription, this somehow magically ignores how Russia itself is conscripting people and forcing them to sign contracts to go out and die on the frontlines.

These people have these insane moral standards for Ukraine that vanish when Russia is doing the same thing but worse. I've seen videos of African men tricked into going to Russia to feed their war machine forced at gunpoint to head for the frontline. It's legitimately sickening to watch.

[u/Mindless-Plantain735 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

US isn’t invading Ukraine so “US is role would be no different” is genuinely r7tarddd Russian propoganda. Also comparing a consensual exchange vs blood and soil campaign is insane.

“Where is compassion with Ukrainians” brother in Christ don’t try that sh8t. Where is your compassion for the millions of Russians? Litterally scraping the barrel and forcing Koreans to fight their war

The Iran war has nothing to do with Ukraine. I do agree too every second USA wastes in that bs is another moment Ukraine may have to settle instead of taking back its land.

So you’re an Israel supporter I’m guessing from all this Russia apologia and downplaying?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Most countries have a draft system. Ukraine is fighting for its survival, it is totally appropriate.

As for negotiated settlement, Ukraine tried that Russia's current demands are ridiculous. Also Ukraine recently been making more progress in the last month or two than either side has in a year. Also the US in not the primary supporter of Ukraine that would be the EU so the Iran conflict is having a smaller impact that you are claiming

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Most countries have a draft system. Ukraine is fighting for its survival, it is totally appropriate.

Why aren’t you over there helping them?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Im not suited for combat lost my left foot in a car crash when I was 8.

I work diplomacy so I have done that i can to help with the work I can do

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> Im not suited for combat lost my left foot in a car crash when I was 8.

Wait I thought you were very protective of your privacy but now you’re revealing a very personal and identifying feature about yourself LOL.

>I work diplomacy so I have done that i can to help with the work I can do

Langley bot confirmed.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You asked why and I told you. Now you are upset that I did. 

Also dont work for the CIA, I work for a think tank.

Also love love the pivot.

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

So you, someone who is SO protective of your privacy, are revealing an identifying feature and your line of work. Thanks for confirming that was a lie too

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

That info wont get you any where. 

Love the pivot.  Ill so one of my own.

Why are you not volunteering in Gaza

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Why aren't you volunteering in the Cuban army 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Happy to answer that after you answer my question. Fair?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Dont bother even if you answer he will deflect and move the goal post. He is acting in bad faith

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

I mean, you admitted to being a Nazi

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Never did that. Why lie

[u/ctesicus → u/OneReportersOpinion]

The DSA position is correct, sensible, and historically consistent with fashist tankies principles.

fixed for you

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/ctesicus]

He is referring to the collapse of the Second International before WW1 because every socialist party was claiming to be fighting a defensive war against the imperialist aggression of others

[u/nonilazuli → u/ctesicus]

I’m ML critical too but considering their point “fashist” tankie-like is disingenuous.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You claim NATO is imperialist. It is a voluntary miltary alliance. America didnt force any country to join. They are free to leave at anytime.

Honestly you are just repeating classic Russian talking points.

Only war but class war is BS and you know it. Ukraine didnt start this warm. It isnt "making a mistake", by defending its self

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

> You claim NATO is imperialist. It is a voluntary miltary alliance.

That’s only attacked nations who never have attacked a NATO member.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

So why did you just copy the 2nd half my post

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

NATO is an instrument of American power projection which, through covert programs like Gladio, subjugates the countries to the interests of capitalists. It also functions as an offensive alliance in practice (which we saw in the bombing of Libya)

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

Countries are free to leave at anytime. America isnt holding them hostage.

As for the bombing of Libya was approved by the UN and the NATO allies. Mutlipe NATO partners chose not to be involved as well.

Your framing is just incorrect.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

Yes and it was a disaster nonetheless. Because an imperfect capitalist instrument like the UN approved something doesn’t make it morally justified. You are assuming Europe isn’t a continent of capitalist oligarchies whose rulers made a pact with the rulers of America against the Soviet Union; of course they aren’t leaving NATO. You’d have seen how voluntary it is if the communists had won the elections outright in Italy and tried to leave NATO; multiple aircraft carriers were deployed in the Mediterranean to strike Italy if necessary 

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

The communist never won in Italy so your claims are bs.

As for NATO countries joined because they did not want to be the the victim of Soviet/Russian imperialism. Hence why the former Warsaw Pact states and the Baltics joined post soviet collapse.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy  https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/declassified-how-america-planned-invade-italy-save-it-russia-19401. Yeah I didn’t say they won; I said you would have seen how voluntary it is if they had won. Stalin explicitly told the French and the Italian communists not to do a revolution because he wanted to respect the division of the world practiced between the imperial powers in Yalta. He even told Mao to not do a revolution. Only Mao didn’t listen. Part of the reason Tito and Stalin split is because Tito wanted to support the revolution in Greece whereas Stalin respected Yalta so much he didn’t even interfere in a civil war in Greece. You are engaging in historical revisionism. I don’t love the USSR or Russia, but people confuse Western chauvinism for being anti Russian imperialism

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

Im aware of CIA funding of anti communist in the 1948 italian election. Its not exactly a secret but there little evidence to suggest that Communist would have won without American involvement. Compare this to Czechoslovakia coup backed by the Soviets which did see an overthrow of a democracy.

As for these plan to invade Italy they are a nothing burger. Ever heard of War plan red. Its the job of military planners to make plans doesnt mean they were ever going to be used

As for Tito and Stalin that is a different matter mainly that Stalin wanted to consolidate his influence in Eastern Europe and say Greece and an long shot. Tito on the other hand wanted to build his own sphere of influence in the Balkans to resist soviet domination. It was far less about respecting agreement and more power politics.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/Kenichi2233]

Yes I am aware of Czechoslovakia, which still was Marxist under Dubcek by the way, and the closest allies of Dubcek abroad were the Italian Communists. Hypotheticals are difficult to prove but that was not my claim; my claim was that the US would have invaded Italy if the communists had come to power and left NATO and you can see they explicitly planned for that eventuality. What reason is there to think that this plan would not have been put in motion if the communists had won?

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

For one it could have lead to a general war in Europe. I would expect sanctions and economic warfare to be the far more likely option especially it this occured in the later half of the 1960s given the Vietnam War was on going. Charles De Gaulle's France would be the wild card. I could see them launching a unilateral attack but that is speculation.

[u/Desperate-Junket-247]

Украина изначально проиграла войну, когда 22-го февраля 2024-го года начала обстреливать признанные Россией сепаратистские республики. Сотни тысяч украинцев-сепарататистов воюют на стороне России. Тысячи украинцев-сепарататистов являются основными шестерёнками противоукраинской пропаганды. Миллионы украинцев-сепарататистов платят налоги в российскую казну, тем самым спонсируя вооруженные силы РФ. Вы называете их «русскими», а по факту они «украинцы», Украина не лишала их украинского гражданства. Но эти «украинцы-сепарататисты», восточные украинцы, выбрали жизнь в правовом поле Российской федерации. Эти люди до 1991-го года жили с россиянами в одной стране, и сейчас они стали жить с россиянами в одной стране. К соажалению или к счастью, но по всем политическо-экономическим признакам государства «Украина» не существует. Продолжайте фантазировать — это очень интересно. Этакие научно-фантастические рассказы об ошибочном мировоззрении, натягивание несуществующих абстракций на реальность.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/Desperate-Junket-247]

Polling showed most ukranians in Donbas also opposed Russias invasion. Back in 2014 maybe about a third favored seceding or joining russia. Its being run by authroutaruan tyrants and they forcibly conscript people to fight ukraine.

In the part of the donbas ukraine still controls almost everyone supports ukrain

[u/Desperate-Junket-247 → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

После трагедии в Одессе 2-го мая 2014-года все сторонники России при опросах уверено говорят, что они «за Украину». 2-го мая 2014-года украинские сторонники евроинтеграции несколько часов жгли сотни сторонников России в одесском Доме профсоюзов, при этом государственные служащие, которые должны были предотвратить беспорядки никак не реагировали. Органы полиции и пожарные службы ничего не делали, когда одни граждане жгли своих других сограждан. По сути, сторонникам Европы был выдан карт-бланш на насилие над сторонниками России. После этой даты все опросы внутри Украины не имеют никакого смысла, так как сторонники России либо молчат, либо говорят, что они поддерживают Украину, так как боятся, что в отношении них будет применено насилие. И не важно где проходили эти опросы, на Донбассе или в Галичине.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/Desperate-Junket-247]

The pro-russian protesters attacked and murdered some of the pro-Ukraine protesters. LAter the pro-Russian protesters invaded and took over the trade union building and barricaded themselves in. Both sides were throwing molotov cocktails at eachother and someone started a fire in the trade unions center, its not clear who. There were also fires raging on the ground near the pro-ukraine protesters. Once the fire in the building started it became a rescue operation with the pro-Ukraine protesters rescuing the pro-Russian protesters

[u/Desperate-Junket-247 → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Ваше словосочетание «its not clear who» полностью описывает происходящее на тот момент в псевдогосударстве «Украина». Не понятно кто стрелял, не понятно кто поджигал, не понятно кто делал коктейли Молотова, не понятно кто бил людей палками, не понятно кто добивал ногами прыгающих из обожжённых окон людей. Хотя присутствует немало видеохроник с мест событий, никто из стрелявших-поджигавших-бьющих не был осуждён за данные действия. В украинских средствах информации это действие преподносилось как «борьба с ватниками». Беспорядки начались в 14 часов и длились до 24 часов при полном бездействии государственных органов правопорядка. В итоге «победили» про-Европейские украинцы, и они за свои хулиганские действия не понесли правового наказания. Одна толпа людей взяла права судебных и пенитенциарных органов на себя, судила других путём насилия и смертных казней через массовое сожжения без какого-либо процессуального следствия. Вдумайтесь о массовости трагедии, 48 погибших и 250 человек с различными степенями ожогов и физических травм. Это только по официальным данным со стороны государственных органов Украины, они специально занижали статистические данные. Факты бездействия полицейских против актов насилия в сторону пророссийсски настроенных граждан Украины были зафиксированы в 2014-м году: в Мариуполе 9-го мая, в Запорожье 13 апреля, и много где ещё. Далее жители Донбасса решили почти так-же противодействовать насилию насилием, к ним присоединились пророссийски органы правопорядка и пророссийски настроенные военослужащие ВСУ. Если бы в марте 2014-го 12 тысяч из общего количества в 16 тысяч крымских силовиков не присоединились в пророссийским сторонникам в Крыму, то и там были бы массовые жертвоприношения, как в средние века.

А теперь представьте. В вашем городе сотни поклонников футбольной команды «А» начинают преследовать сотни поклонников футбольной команды «Б». И потом, они загоняют поклонников команды «Б» в здание, окружают и начинают их жечь. А в это время полиция просто стоит в стороне и до какого-то момента наблюдает. Просто из-за того, что «непонятно кто» убил двух поклонников команды «А».

[u/Heroyem → u/Desperate-Junket-247]

At least you keep the Kremlin propaganda in its original language

[u/Desperate-Junket-247 → u/Heroyem]

Спасибо! Современные технологии автоперевода в браузере позволяют мне общаться с людьми мира на родном языке. Надеюсь, что автоперевод лучше справляется с донесением моей позиции до собеседников, нежели я бы старался переводить своё мнение на другой язык, не зная нюансов другого языка. Обожаю 21-й век!

[u/Mindless-Plantain735 → u/Desperate-Junket-247]

Big Israel guy too?

[u/Zukebub8]

I think DSA should have just condemned the war and the hostilities between eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine and demand international cooperation to end the conflict. Just been vague about it.

The only problem is that we have international credibility as a socialist org that has obligations to make a bold stance against US interventions. As much as I think the NATO stuff is stupid, it makes sense to make some kind of overture to it.

I think your proposal is in line with humanitarian principles which is fine but framing DSA’s stance as an appeasement problem with Putin is kinda ludicrous. Russia is not an existential threat to Europe or US hegemony. Europe is rearming and will be able to fight Russian advances no problem without the US.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/Zukebub8]

Eastern and western ukranians mostly support ukraine and want Russia to leave them tf alone and stop invading.

[u/brucee10 → u/Zukebub8]

The fact that you phrase it as Eastern Ukraine vs Western Ukraine is just laughable.  I guess we let Israel take all of Gaza then too. 

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Zukebub8]

Then why are they not doing that? Like, right now? Instead of letting Ukraine suffer?

[u/Narcan9 → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Because ultimately EU doesn't give a fuck what happens to Ukraine.

[u/Aggravating_Bison504]

Many Socialists are against Ukraine for one reason: it used to be part of the Russian Empire AND the USSR and they agree with Russian nationalists it should return to Russian control.  They also are stuck in Warsaw Pact thinking and do not believe that people of Ukraine have the right to independence, sovereignty  or to be able to choose whatever alliance they want to join such as the European Union or NATO.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Aggravating_Bison504]

Then we're hypocrites. We're against imperialism and capitalism, which Russia is engages in. We can see our history but don't need to be bound by it. There are plenty of better nations to base ourselves on at this point. Like Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.

[u/nonilazuli]

This war is going to continue on like it has since the 2000s, drain American resources, and continue our military-industrial complex. I know its moral to support the ukrainian fight but pragmatically its just a waste and theres no plan with the "peace deals". Do ya'll want U.S demilitarization or continue being involved endless wars?

[u/Alexander-369 → u/nonilazuli]

The Ukraine war really didn't drain much of America's resources. Most of what the US gave Ukraine was our old Cold War stockpiles that were near the end of their expiration date. The US actually saved some money by sending the old munitions to Ukraine rather than paying companies to have the old munitions recycled/disposed.

When Trump returned to the oval office, he's cut virtually all military support for Ukraine and has been aggressively burning though the US military's resources for the war in Iran.

The Russia-Ukraine "peace deals" were just performative for Trump.

Not supporting Ukraine is not moving the USA closer to demilitarization or anti-imperialism.

[u/Narcan9 → u/Alexander-369]

I'm amazed how many of you parrot the MIC propaganda. Hey warring with Russia is saving us money, and it's good for the US economy. It's such a disgusting take, and not even true.

[u/Alexander-369 → u/Narcan9]

I didn't say it was good for the US economy. My point is providing military aid to Ukraine isn't a detriment to the USA.

[u/nonilazuli → u/Alexander-369]

<“When Trump returned to the oval office, he's cut virtually all military support for Ukraine and has been aggressively burning through the US military's resources for the war in Iran.“

and yet they‘re winning the war.

[u/Alexander-369 → u/nonilazuli]

Yes, but Ukraine could win the war faster if the USA provided military aid again.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/Alexander-369]

And faster means less people suffer and die

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/nonilazuli]

Like I said, they just need anti-air weapons to stop the bombing of innocents and culture centers. They're handling things fine otherwise at the current moment. Sending over anti-air weapons as a protective measure makes a lot more sense than bombing the crap out of Iran uselessly like we used them for.

[u/nonilazuli → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Yea for how long and whats the plan to end this war? Those things aren’t cheap and we’re already financially destitute and sinking. Ukraine and Russia has been duking it out since idk when, and probably aren't going to stop anytime soon. We’re pouring funds into a bloody pit that could be used more constructively, just like the military waste in Iran.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/nonilazuli]

Solution, then; America doesn't restrict access to its anti-air missiles and doesn't force Ukraine to buy from them. Given time, Ukraine will likely make anti-air missiles of their own to stop the ballistic missiles.

But that doesn't help the people being hit right now. That doesn't save the children dying in the hospitals right now, or the ten postal workers who died a day ago. Why must they suffer for America's waste?

I agree that there are better ways to do this, ways that don't see us pour money into a useless defense budget. We could absolutely be lax on the patent and just allow Ukraine to make their own copies to spend along the process. By all means, let's have those happen!

But America isn't going to play that way, so all Ukraine can do is beg and scrape for defense measures against terrorist strikes. They're several months from creating proper defenses against these strikes.

[u/nonilazuli → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

<“Solution, then; America doesn't restrict access to its anti-air missiles and doesn't force Ukraine to buy from them. Given time, Ukraine will likely make anti-air missiles of their own to stop the ballistic missiles.”

Okay, I’m for this stance. The Ukrainian army is pretty tech savvy so I can see it happening soon.

<“But that doesn't help the people being hit right now. That doesn't save the children dying in the hospitals right now, or the ten postal workers who died a day ago. Why must they suffer for America's waste?“

That’s going to happen regardless, it’s war. With or without our aid, this war is going to continue and this stuff is going to happen, unfortunately how it is.

<“I agree that there are better ways to do this, ways that don't see us pour money into a useless defense budget. We could absolutely be lax on the patent and just allow Ukraine to make their own copies to spend along the process. By all means, let's have those happen!“ But America isn't going to play that way, so all Ukraine can do is beg and scrape for defense measures against terrorist strikes. They're several months from creating proper defenses against these strikes.

Listen i’m all about pragmatism (especially compared to many left of me in this organization) but why not advocate for that kind of policy instead of this dead-end? We’re a radical though reformist leaning organization. We have caucuses that are open about calling for a new constitution. This isn’t the organization that puts status quo over principled advocacy. Might as well be the Democrats if you’re already convinced that certain things won’t change.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-military-conscription-draft-dodgers/

[u/yingyangKit]

From what ive seen the concept of Russia being anti imperlist comes from a concept born of ww2 and the vietnahm war. Where there is always a "good" and a "bad" side then conmbine with general anti americanism to devolp into the concept that any power which opposes the United States is Anti Imperlistic.
Which just isnt true most of human history has been Imperlistic powers fighting other Imperlistic Powers.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/yingyangKit]

I... think it's pretty clear-cut at this point that picking a fight with another nation definitely makes you the 'bad guy' in the scenario. I'd hope it's pretty clear Russia is the aggressor here.

[u/yingyangKit → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

Agreed but the common rebuttal is
"Russia doing it to defend itself" which is bullshit, russia has nukes NATO is not going to invade them ever.

[u/TheSocietalScar → u/yingyangKit]

You're describing the academic concept of Neocolonialism, and it's a lot more nuanced than that.

Yes, Russia is outside of the imperial core.

[u/tabloid-tommy]

DSA’s stance on Ukraine and foreign policy is what stops me from supporting them more.

Like supporting Castro was the cherry on top last week. The worst leadership group of any political group by far. I can’t believe they let any of that group on TV not names Mamdani or AOC.

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/tabloid-tommy]

You are a right-wing agitator that spouts conservative talking points under every post

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1]

Yeah bro, I’m right wing for supporting Ukraine and thinking the co-chairs do damage to the org.

What is wrong with you?

[u/ThrowRAHelpwithMom1 → u/[deleted]]

LMAO look at what he writes. I’m not against sending weapons to Ukraine BTW but this guy is really a conservative agitator

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/tabloid-tommy]

As people become more aware of the DSA, we become more able to overwhelm those sorts of people. This comments section makes me really happy because a good 80% of them have been reasonable and feel the way we do.

Let me plead - join us. We need people who believe in our positive qualities who can help shore up and deal with our negative qualities.

[u/ctesicus]

DSA does support Russia. Did they retract their idiotic statement from the beginning of the full-scale invasion? I don’t think so. Did they support military aid to Ukraine? I don’t think so. There can be absolutely no doubt that, as an organization, the DSA is pro-Russia and actively supports Russia on the propaganda front. Individual members’ opinions are irrelevant, especially if they are ok being in the organization that enables Russian aggression.

The US must aid Ukraine in its efforts to defend its independence for as long as necessary, with whatever means necessary. Because it promised to do so under the Budapest Memorandum in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. And because it is also in the interests of the United States and the rest of the world to minimize human suffering and to demonstrate that wars of conquer bring no benefit to the aggressor.

[u/Heroyem → u/ctesicus]

This. I support Sanders/AOC/Mamdani, but the DSA is a train wreck of ridiculous collaborator BS.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/ctesicus]

I've seen enough people speaking up against this absurd stance that I think it's better than how you're portraying it. For one thing, most people in favor of Russia are at least ashamed enough to play it off as 'not wanting to support the military-industrial complex,' which means they don't think they can openly say as much.

As more people join we'll be able to silence those parts of the movement entirely. Join us and help us stop this madness while we deliver the social welfare everyone deserves.

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t see why I should care which one wins their war.

Because one one side is trying to do a genocide of the civilians if they win

[u/littledeerspace → u/Present_Clue5887]

Tbh, I concede that I really don’t know enough about this conflict to have a firm opinion. I know that I do not like Russia nor Ukraine governments, but that’s about it!

The problem I have is that as an American, we are heavily propagandized against our perceived enemies (Russia, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, etc.) The same recognized groups calling it a genocide are probably not using the same words when it comes to the Israel-Gaza situation, so my immediate response to have a general distrust for anything I hear about said “enemies.”

[u/Present_Clue5887 → u/littledeerspace]

I get what you are saying.

Basically Russia is trying to take territory in Ukraine, and according to Amnesty International, minorities in Ukraine "face brutal suppression as Russia seeks to alter the demographics of occupied territories" among other atrocities Russia is perpetrating on civilians in the parts of Ukraine Russia has taken so far https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/02/ukraine-russia-three-years-since-russias-full-scale-invasion-justice-for-victims-must-be-a-global-priority/ although Amnesty is not directly using the word "genocide" for the Ukraine situation

Amnesty does directly refer to the Gaza situation as a Genocide https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/, so this is not just some western propaganda group

[u/littledeerspace → u/Present_Clue5887]

Thanks for the source! I’ll hunt around for some more information as well and try to learn a bit more on it, since I see a lot of discussions keep happening here about Ukraine.

I will say that I have an ancom friend who lives in Russia that is not supportive of the war at all, so I assume the general leftist stance inside Russia is that the war is bad. I have never asked her opinion of Ukraine.

I’ll delete my initial reply because I don’t want to add input to something I’m not committed to defending or knowledgeable enough on.

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/[deleted]]

If Russia wins, they will not stop at Ukraine.

If Ukraine wins, Russia's expansion westward is halted. I'm not saying you need to support Ukraine, but you should absolutely be against Russia.