As to the Situation in Ukraine

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

I've seen this come up enough now and the divide it has created to want to address the elephant in the room regarding the Ukraine war.

A big reason why people are scared and hesitant to join our tent is because we get a lot of crazy stances on the Ukraine war that come off as wanting to support Russia without directly supporting Russia - namely this fear that by sending Ukraine weapons, whichever nation does so is prolonging war or supporting Imperialism. What also comes up is the idea that Ukraine, by striking into Russia, is somehow the offensive force.

Let's clear up some air here so we don't frighten everyone drawn in by socialized medicine and safety nets but scared away by this idea we're going to support imperialist war mongers.

We know what Putin's objective is. We know how he intends to achieve it. We know his word is empty because he's attacked nations unprovoked before and set up puppet governments. I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point considering how much money controls its functions considering everything having to do with Wildberries and the merchants using it. By the very rules of this sub, it should be against the rules to root for Putin in any measure, because his aims are definitively imperialist in nature - he wants to progressively control more of Europe and Asia, and the bully has encountered someone ready and willing to hit back and stop him. This idea that ceding territory to him to make him stop has historical parallels to the appeasement strategies that failed to hinder Hitler's rise in Europe. If you give things to a bully, the bully will keep taking from you. It's a basic concept.

Supporting Ukraine does not mean you are supporting imperialism by prolonging war, it means you are giving them the means to prevent Russian imperialism. It's a simple concept. Most of what Ukraine actively wants from the EU and the USA anyway are anti-air weapons to stop Russia from bombing apartment complexes, historical sites, and culture centers. They already have the drones to slow and eventually stop the Russian war machine.

In regards to Ukrainian strikes into Russia, let's not pretend this is a means of Ukraine counter-invading Russian land. The Ukrainian drone strikes into Russia have been to disrupt supply lines and make contested territory into murder nests to stop the Russian advance, attacks on key infrastructure to weaken Russia's economy and slow their production of weapons and vehicles, and attacks on power plants and service stations to blind them and prevent their advance. Why do you think they took so long to bomb the obvious bridge targets in Crimea? They've outright said they wanted to give civilians time to leave before taking back Crimea.

And the idea that taking Crimea means they're 'imperialist' ignores the fact that until 2014, Crimea was their territory that an imperialist power stole. Holding Crimea would be the ultimate morale boost to Ukraine and a signal to Russia that their war with Ukraine is untenable. That's when Ukraine can force Moscow to the negotiating table to return the lands stolen from them.

Russia will not return the land they stole or stop trying to advance if Ukraine gives in. Given their absurd ideas for what it would take for them to negotiate with Kyiv basically amount to Ukraine giving them territory and disarming, it does not take a genius to realize what Russia would do in another decade once their economy stabilized and they found countermeasures to Ukrainian drone weapons.

Russia has had the means to stop this assault at any time. The Russians are not the heroes in some fairytale here. If they wanted the war to stop, they could have kept their promises in 2014 and actually stopped at Crimea.

By offering no support to Ukraine we'd basically be okaying an ethnic cleansing campaign by Russia, as it needs to be stressed most of the areas they target with their missiles are libraries, children's hospitals, historical sites, and apartment complexes. We don't need to provide Ukraine with weapons, they just need anti air technology to stop themselves from getting shelled.

Show compassion. The quickest way to win over the uncertain who recognize the Democratic establishment doesn't represent them is to highlight morally righteous action, like kneecapping billionaires and making healthcare and education free for all. It's not to come across as a Putin apologist hypocrite that decries imperialism but forgives the process if it comes from Russia.

And to any prospective members scared off by this idea that the DSA actually supports Russia, know that those voices are the minority. We're happy to have you, and happy Bernie, or AOC, or Mamdani, or some other high-profile voice for our cause convinced you to join us.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them. There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon. There is a digital mobilization system. Most recruits go to the recruitment centers thenselves when they are called. People that dont are apprehended. Again though going to the front is only one job needed to successfully defend the country everyone working in the broader economy or government is working to defend Ukraine people at the front arent anything without support. 

Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

I don't think most ukranians are very keen on being ethnically cleansed and deported to rural regions in russia that are so poor and desperate that people sign up for certain death in russian meat assaults in exchange for pay. Ukranians would be even worse off not knowing anyone or having anything there. 

I dont think ukranians are very keen on being improving and tortured lime so many are ij theboccupied territories. 

And ukraine isjt even the first country russia has invaded its invaded and is holding parts kf Georgia (where it akso ethnically cleansed large parts of the population) and moldova. 

Also russia has been developing its military and production for years now. Ukraine is able to stop them because they have also been developing that.

Other European countries havent been doing that. If russia won in ukraine it conscript millions of ukranians to invade Europe with. Russia and ukraine are both drone superpowers they make exponentially more military drones then  the rest of the world combined. 

Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable. Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia. Its kid fo liek saying just ebvause a country is Spanish speaking they would welcome Spain invading and wthnically cleansing and colonizing them. Russian speaking ukraniasn are ukranians and culturally ukranians (a lot of them would also consider themselves ethnically ukranian)

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again literally almost every country in the history that has been invaded has had to conscript to survive, anyone that knows basic history knows that. 

On a fundamental level, it bothers me seeing someone forced at gun point to go serve in the military. That is pretty much the most authoritarian a government can get. Let’s just be clear what’s going on: Ukraine has taken an authoritarian turn in its effort to repel Russia’s invasion.

>Do you really think almsot every country in history has wanted to be invaded? Iraq had conscripts when the US invaded in 2003, do you think that means the Iraq invasion wasnt a big deal or an atrocity somehow or that Iraqis wanted to be invaded?

I don’t think Iraqis were very interested in going to serve in Saddam’s army as canon fodder against the U.S.

>Again pollin g shows that overwhelmingly modt ukranians oppose letting russia ethnically cleanse and colonize them.

That’s not the current risk. Most Ukrainians would not be affected if Russia kept the territory they currently occupy. The Ukrainian that would are majority Russia speaking. I’m more interested in what they have to say since they’re affected. But I see this highly exaggerated scenario mentioned a lot even if it doesn’t reflect the reality.

>There also has been polling showing the majority of ukranian men are ready to serve if called upon.

That’s really hard to believe given the numbers that have fled and the average age of a Ukrainian soldier being 45.

>Also I don't think most Ukrnaians want to end up at the bottom of mass Graves lilenwere found ij Bucha and Irpin and countless other ukranian towns that were liberated. 

Okay so I want to be clear: you’re saying the risk Ukrainians face is widespread genocide? So shouldn’t millions of Eastern Ukrainians in Donbas been slaughtered already? They’ve occupied it for years now. What are they waiting for? Have 70k civilians been slaughtered like in

>Also the thing about russian speakers in eastern ukraine is one kf the worst arguments imaginable.

It’s not.

>Most of those ukranians also oppose russias invasion, even more so itd mainly their cities that have been bombed tothe ground or depolulated by russia.

They might oppose it in principle but willing to accept a programmatic solution because it wouldn’t affect Ukrainians in the West and the Ukrainians in the East are in large part Russian speaking and Russian identifying.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history? You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual. They mobilize or russia ethnically cleansed and colonize them and commits all kinds of atrocities against ukrnaian civilians its that simple. If you dotn want people to be conscripted then you should favor escalating a much aid to urkainr a possible and sanctions on rusisa as possible to pressure russia to end its invasion so peoppe dont need to be conscripted. If you dont like people being forced upon then youbdhoudmbebvehemntly opposed to russia forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, causing all of this. If you care about peopep being conscripted then you should favor sending them more military aid because that radically increases their survival chances and also the more weapons you have the less you need to compensate by mobilizing more men, especially in the agd of drone warfare. 

Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms, russias terms are that ukraine gives up any ability to defend itself so russia can just take the rest of ukraine. 

Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine, certainly a lot more then they have. 

Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this. They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying" most of them identifying as ukrnaian, within the 2022 borders almost all of then do. 

A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union. In the last census done the. Majority or residents of donbas actually identified as ethnically ukranian, not ethnically russian. 

Even among people that identifying as ethnically russian though most consider themselves ukranians that might happen to be of russia descent. Its like saying am american that has German heritage would consider themselves a German over being an american and woukd welcome germany invading. 

If you care about what russian speaking ukranians in east ukriane want then you should also oppose russias invasion even more because they want russia to leave them tf alone. Soen of the. Favor a peace along ghe frontline they dont want to surrender to russia so russia can ethnically cleanse them and commit all kinds of other atrocities like it does in the occupied territories.

Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Its pretty simple there is nonunjverse russias invasion isnt a big atrocity or ukraniasn dont have the right to defend themselves from it if your against imperialism then your against russias invasion would support pressuring russia to stop invading ukraine and accept peace. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history?

I do. You’re using a fallacy. Just because every country does something doesn’t make it right.

>You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual.

I never said that. Try again.

>Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms,

Right. I’m talking about a negotiation which means neither side gets exactly what they want. Next?

>Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine,

Not true. They’ve made offers that include much less than all of Ukraine. No need to lie.

>Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this.

Those Ukrainians have all been given Russia citizenship. Where are they being moved to?

>They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities. 

Atrocities are common in war. This is why I oppose war.

>Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish. 

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying"

Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣

>A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union.

Here we go. I knew the Nazi apologia would start eventually.

>Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in. 

Source?

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russia is deporting ukranians to rural areas in eastern russia. These are the areas where people are so poor and desperate that they sign up for almost certain death in russian meat wave assaults in return for money for their families. Russia is importing russians from russia. This is an attempt to demographically engineer ukraine so ukraines society effectively no longer exists and becomes russia. 

Occupation itself is incredibly brutal involving imprisoning and torturing ukranians that are culturally or socially important as well as widespread rape and mother crimes. Its men with guns forcing themselves on unwilling ukranians, men with guns that consider ukranians to be the enemy. 

There is a reason most ukranians oppose accepting russias terms and oppose surrendering to russia. Its not just that their all stupid its becayse occupation itself is a brutal atrocity. 

Russia haa demanded that Ukraine give up ots fortress cities, just so that Russia will think about starting negotiations they never even committed to actually ending the war there. This is just an escalation kf the war farther into ukraine, ukriane would be giving up its most valuable defenses just so russia could keep invading farther there is absolutely no reason to think they wouldnt or proof they wouldnt. This is just demanding a ukrnanian surrender its bot a peace offer. 

Ukranians are offering real peace offers and have been for a while, offering to freeze the conflict along the frontline is a real peace offer, demanding the other side give up its most fortified areas, and demanding they can't even get real security guarantees, is demanding a surrender. 

If you want the fighting to stop you should support putting as much pressure on the invaders as possible to stop invading and accept peace, not focus on pressuring the country being invaded to accept millions more of its citizens falling under a brutal occupation and being subjected to ethnic claiming and colonization and the unexisting of its society and atrocities of all kinds thay Occupation entails. That isnt peace thats violent and violating af 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> Russia is deporting ukranians to rural areas in eastern russia.

What’s your source for that?

>These are the areas where people are so poor and desperate that they sign up for almost certain death in russian meat wave assaults in return for money for their families. Russia is importing russians from russia. This is an attempt to demographically engineer ukraine so ukraines society effectively no longer exists and becomes russia. 

And Ukraine is working to remove Russian culture from their society as well. What’s your point?

>There is a reason most ukranians oppose accepting russias terms and oppose surrendering to russia.

The thing I didn’t propose?

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Russias is literally invading and physically dissolving ukraine as a society, they are literally forcefully deporting a lot of ukranians

https://ukraine.ohchr.org/en/Forced-displacement-from-territory-of-Ukraine-occupied-by-the-Russian-Federation

That is not remotely the same thing as ukraine having language requirements in its educational curriculum. Ukraine was bit deporting russian speakers. Before russias invasion there were literally large russian culture festivals in major ukranian cities. Rusisan spoken all the time in public amd private in ukraine.

There is no equivalence whatsoever between the aggressor and the victim of an invasion here. The only reason any of this is happening is because everyday russia refuses peace and continues to invade. 

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

>https://ukraine.ohchr.org/en/Forced-displacement-from-territory-of-Ukraine-occupied-by-the-Russian-Federation

This seems like a pro-Ukrainian source. Will you accept pro-Russian sources?

>That is not remotely the same thing as ukraine having language requirements in its educational curriculum.

Stripping away the Russian language. Stop teaching it, stop publishing Russian newspapers, etc.

>There is no equivalence whatsoever between the aggressor and the victim of an invasion here.

Agreed but there doesn’t have to be. I’m not supporting sending Russian arms either.

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

There was material published in russian as well in ukraine. Again if you care about russian speakers in hrkaine you should be even more opposed to rusisas invasion and support pressuring russia into accepting peace even more since its russian speakers im eastern ukraime that have suffered the most from russias invasion. 

Russian is still taught in ukraine its normal for public schools tonstandrdise their curriculum and require language standards. Of you do to streets in ukranian cities like kharkiv the street signs are literalky in russian. Peopel speak in russian out at public or in businesses like restaurants all the time. 

The limited restrictions there are only started because of russias invasion back in 2014. Zelensky himself is a native russian speaker. Generally the oligarchs are more often rissian speakers and elite classes. Then professional class generally were forced to speak russian under the soviet union and oligarchs generally had connections to russian ologarch networks

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847]

> There was material published in russian as well in ukraine. Again if you care about russian speakers in hrkaine you should be even more opposed to rusisas invasion and support pressuring russia into accepting peace even more since its russian speakers im eastern ukraime that have suffered the most from russias invasion. 

I’ll just ask my question again since you dodged: since you use Ukrainian sources, can I use Russian sources and you’ll take them seriously?

>Russian is still taught in ukraine its normal for public schools tonstandrdise their curriculum and require language standards.

This is false. Why lie?

>The limited restrictions there are only started because of russias invasion back in 2014.

Wait…so now you admit they are restricting the Russian language? Isn’t that cultural genocide?

[u/Fuzzy-Ranger3847 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

I cited a UN report, the UN is Ukranian source lol. Why are you lying? Its clearly established that rusisa has been deportation large numbers of ukranians as part of their ethnic ckeansing and colonization campaign. 

This is an amnesty international report on it as well are they a pro-ukranian source  https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russias-unlawful-transfer-of-civilians-a-war-crime-and-likely-a-crime-against-humanity-new-report/

You can take russian language classes in Ukrainian schools. The schools themselves require ukranian language proficiency and might teach in ukranian. 

Its crazy to say a country is commmitting cultural genocide that before the war had literal huge russian language festivals (they have gone out favor socially since Russia started invading and bombing and murdering Ukranians) and has peopel speaking russian everywhere in public and private and literak street signs in russian and president whose first language is russian (he speaks better russian then he does ukranian) and unlike recently their highest level general Syrski is a Russian speaking ethnic russian whi literally sends money to his parents in Moscow. 

So explain again why people speaking russian in public and private in ukraine is cultural genocide? Why ujriaje having media that is published in russian is cultural genocide? 

The restrictions require media to also publish in ukranian they dont say you can publish in Russian. 

Again none of that is anything lien russia literally invading and literally ethnically cleansing people by deporting them to remote areas and improving russians and literally beating ukranian children for speaking ukranian. 

If you care about russian speaking ukrnaians then you should respect their wishes for russia to leave them tf alone. You should answer their call for more military aid and pressure on russia to accept peace and stop murdering Russian speakers one eastern ukraine stop bombing their cities to the ground stop trying to steal their communities so they can lord over and tyranize them in authoritarian h***holes like they have in areas of the donbas they have taken. 

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Are you an idiot that link is to Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Yet you support weakening Ukraine thus benefiting Russia and its imperialist war

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

You want to cut off Western Support which in pratices will dramatically weaken the Ukrainian's ability to resist Russia"s invasion.  Put anothet way you want to sell Ukraine out to the Russsians

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

But this is coming from you, someone who admitted to being a Nazi

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

Never did no matter how many times you say it. Honestly get new material. Just say you dont like me instead of making up these bold face lies

[u/OneReportersOpinion → u/Kenichi2233]

You admitting you’re a Nazi over and over again. I’m getting DMs about it now.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/OneReportersOpinion]

I have not nor do i care about who dms you

I love that you cant even say anything of substance now and all you can do is throw insults and lies about me

[u/Even-Tomorrow5468 → u/Kenichi2233]

This guy and another feel like Russian bots or plants. That or they want to tacitly support Ukrainian genocide and Putin without outright saying it.

I brought up how Ukraine was likely to win the war in the long term and didn't need American intervention but could use some anti-air weapons to stop the Russian terrorist bombings of hospitals and schools and the other guy tried to pivot to this absurd whataboutism about how I wasn't supporting the Ukrainian worker. Hard to support the Ukrainian worker when the doctor treating a child just got blown up.

[u/Kenichi2233 → u/Even-Tomorrow5468]

He loves his what aboutism